Home › Forums › Explore Media › Drawing and Sketching › Old Master’s Shading and line

Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • September 18, 2017 at 9:35 am #995300
    koss1959
    Default

        I have a few questions about old master drawings if someone could help?

        Firstly, I’ve noticed that often they would lay some value down, smudge it into the paper and then lay hatching over the top. Why do they choose to do that and not just push the value darker just by laying down more value over the top? I would understand if the hatching gave the subject shape, but often the hatching is perfectly straight, even on a curved or rounded subject.

        And secondly, I know that every mark they put down was on purpose. I’ve noticed in Raphael’s drawings in particular, he would often use a heavier line in certain areas of a drawing but not others? For example, on the old man’s left hand, one side of his thumb is outlined much heavier than the other side. On his study of David, a lot of the figure is outlined heavily, but not the calf, hand, foot or back of the head. He obviously made a choice to not do that.

        I can notice things like this in their drawings and I apply them to my own, but I don’t know WHY they’ve chosen to do what they have.

        Hope this is the right place for this. Thanks!

        September 18, 2017 at 1:59 pm #1272439
        tiago.dagostini
        Default

            First, these were not intended to be final renderings.

            They were interested in studying the form, excessive render hinders that. The shading was TERTIARY!

            Their focus was the FORM, not the shading! Classical view of drawing is around Gesture and structure, the bolder marks are used to reinforce the structure where it is important.

            Second, they did not had graphite! Things are much easier now.

            "no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

            "If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"

            September 18, 2017 at 3:42 pm #1272442
            katwalk
            Default

                Hmm, I would guess that some of their choices were personal style, everyone has their own, or perhaps I should say “should have” their own. Copying is fine as a learning tool, but eventually you should feel free to make marks anyway YOU want to. The point of your art is to create art that satisfies you :)

                As tiago mentioned they didn’t have graphite, they used chalk or charcoal for drawings, and drawings were just an intermediary step to a final painting or print, not an end in itself.

                Kathy
                http://katwalkdesigns.blogspot.com/

                September 18, 2017 at 6:54 pm #1272444
                koss1959
                Default

                    I understand that they are usually preparatory drawings for a painting, especially in Raphael’s case but they are standalone works of art in themselves today. The level of detail and care in the drawings is far too great for them to be just be seen as sketches and plans.

                    All the advice you read about how to get better as an artist always includes the tip “copy from the masters”. They got so great by copying their master’s work exactly. I’m just looking to develop my skills, not to be a carbon copy of them. But I love a lot of the techniques they used and to be able to use them effectively in my own work, I need to know why they used them and then I’ll know when to use them.

                    I’m not quite sure why graphite was brought up? You can get a lot of line and tonal variation with a single lump of chalk. Sorry if I’ve missed something!

                    Thanks.

                    September 18, 2017 at 7:12 pm #1272441
                    janinco
                    Default

                        I have wondered the same thing when studying the drawings. I have a feeling the darker lines you’re seeing in this one were redefining the shape since they have no connection to the lighting. Since it was black chalk and not easily erased, the preliminary lines were often light but emphasizing the correct position would probably be done with a bit more weight which probably helps train the mind as an exercise in preparation for the painting.

                        Jan

                        TwoStone Studio
                        September 19, 2017 at 5:13 am #1272440
                        tiago.dagostini
                        Default

                            I understand that they are usually preparatory drawings for a painting, especially in Raphael’s case but they are standalone works of art in themselves today. The level of detail and care in the drawings is far too great for them to be just be seen as sketches and plans.

                            All the advice you read about how to get better as an artist always includes the tip “copy from the masters”. They got so great by copying their master’s work exactly. I’m just looking to develop my skills, not to be a carbon copy of them. But I love a lot of the techniques they used and to be able to use them effectively in my own work, I need to know why they used them and then I’ll know when to use them.

                            I’m not quite sure why graphite was brought up? You can get a lot of line and tonal variation with a single lump of chalk. Sorry if I’ve missed something!

                            Thanks.

                            Graphite was brought up because the concept that a monocolor rendering could be done with enough detail and permanency to be an art piece itself only arose after graphite appeared. Try to make a charcoal drawing with deep tonal range and NOT fixate it.. I doubt you would see anything left in 400 years :P

                            When you copy the masters you must copy trying to understand what they were trying to depict. Their focus was on the gesture and anatomical aspect of the human form and there lies most of the value of those works.

                            As you said the shading would be totally a matter of personal style. One might like hatching other to smear the sanguine.. but none would spend too much time on preparatory drawings. Artists like them probably made a few dozen per day while preparing a painting, there was no sense for them probably to go much deeper with these works.

                            "no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

                            "If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"

                            September 19, 2017 at 9:04 am #1272438
                            budigart
                            Default

                                My understanding is that there were/are a few simple line directions that tell the story:

                                Vertical — express tension

                                Horizontal — express quiet, serene

                                Diagonal — express value

                                Cross Hatch — express atmosphere . . . air, space.

                                A heavy line on one side of the form expresses weight. The line thinning or disappearing expresses light, or getting lighter, in some cases both in weight and value.

                                I believe some “smudging” was done on purpose, and other was done by the action of the moving hand while drawing.

                                September 19, 2017 at 7:43 pm #1272443
                                wdaniels
                                Default

                                    When I studied drawing in art school, we were taught to always lay more hatching over smudged and blended tones, simply because just leaving the smudged tone can look bland and uninteresting, I suspect the old masters thought the same.

                                    As for the variation in line, you will notice that generally, the line is lighter on the side of the form where the light hits and heavier on the shadow side. Also, on rounded forms, the line is generally softer and less defined than on more angular forms. All this helps with the illusion of form, as well as adding interest to the drawing. Nothing is more boring than having everything the same. Raphael is an artist that is often singled out for his mastery of line. Ingres is another .

                                    September 20, 2017 at 5:58 am #1272445
                                    koss1959
                                    Default

                                        Thanks for all the replies. They have been very helpful.

                                      • Author
                                        Posts
                                      Viewing 9 posts - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
                                      • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


                                      Lost your password?
                                      Register