WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Oil Painting
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 03:31 PM
Linda Ciallelo's Avatar
Linda Ciallelo Linda Ciallelo is offline
Lord of the Arts
Binghamton,NY,USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,309
 
Hails from United States
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnnie
The Medium he uses according to my purchased .PDF file of his still life is

2 Parts Turps
1 Part Damar Varnish
1 Drop Lavander oil. Mainly to kill turps smell.

He oils the canvas/panel with straight linseed with his hands. The warmth of his hands imbeds the oil better he says. Then he wipes it off. Does this on every layer I believe. I havent read thru it all yet. He also scraps every layer before oiling with razor blade.

This should help some.

Johnnie

I see that in the first online demo he says that he wipes his "pallet" with linseed oil before applying paint. A medium of just turps and varnish would be very inflexible, I would think.
  #32   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 03:58 PM
Johnnie's Avatar
Johnnie Johnnie is offline
Immortalized
"" Lincoln, Ontario""
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,011
 
Hails from Canada
Yes I would think so.

I mentioned nothing of using that on the palette.

I read further and the FIRST layer is 20 parts Turps to 1 part Damar. He is doing this over an ink drawing . Goal is to have a very well blended Olive color on the complete surface. He uses a blender to do this. After he says wait a week/7 days for layer to dry before proceeding. On a quick glance this is a very long method of painting I am thinking. But it sure turns out great.

He wipes the canvas before each layer and the palette for each layer as he changes his colors with linseed oil.

What I explained from his .PDF is his WORKING MEDIUM.

Johnnie
__________________
"Every Day Is A Great Day
Some Are Just Better Than Others"

Last edited by Johnnie : 11-29-2003 at 04:03 PM.
  #33   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 04:18 PM
Linda Ciallelo's Avatar
Linda Ciallelo Linda Ciallelo is offline
Lord of the Arts
Binghamton,NY,USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,309
 
Hails from United States
In the online demo( the apple demo) I read that he says "damar crystals". That would be a bit more concentrated than damar varnish(picture varnish), which is crystals that have already been melted in turps.
The rose demo is so much easier to understand and no longer has seven layers(ostensibly). His terms are more american and easier to relate to. For instance the color names are familiar.
yes, it would seem that this process would take forever. I would like to modify it somewhat for my own use. A sort of compromise between the old and the new.
So possibly he's applying the oil to the canvas and the pallet and then using just the varnish plus turps for his medium. Thats just the opposite of using oil for one's medium and spraying each layer with retouch varnish(damar and turps) like I was doing.

Last edited by Linda Ciallelo : 11-29-2003 at 04:22 PM.
  #34   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 04:24 PM
Linda Ciallelo's Avatar
Linda Ciallelo Linda Ciallelo is offline
Lord of the Arts
Binghamton,NY,USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,309
 
Hails from United States
Johnnie , I didn't say that "you" said it, I am just comparing the info from your video with the info from the online demo. I'm just looking for clues tthat might be relevant.
  #35   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 05:47 PM
HRobinson's Avatar
HRobinson HRobinson is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
NE Oklahoma
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,166
 
Hails from United States
I really appreciated this lesson and you too papa.

-Harry
  #36   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 05:54 PM
artpapa's Avatar
artpapa artpapa is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 19
 
Hails from United States
Quote:
Originally posted by deefox
Alexei,
I have what I hope is not too stupid a question. Your paintings take several weeks to complete going through the various stages yet the final result looks so fresh. My question is, the roses, fruit, etc must have long since departed. What do you use for reference in the later stages. Do you work from photos of the original setup? If so, how did the artists handle the problem before cameras?
Thanks for your help and again WELCOME!
Dee
Dee,
Thanks, thatís very common question and seems to me more moral then technological. OK, I will take part of responsibility on my shoulders.
I think if Leonardo Da Vinci would live in twenty-first century he would definitely have a nice Hasselblad with digital back, digital projector, he would change his computer every other months and, most definitely he would become a moderator on the WetCanvas forum .
We canít ignore twenty-first century technology,
but not for the beginners. For the beginners photo technology is the END. A photo ďcheatingĒ could help to be a little better than your schoolmates but in a long road this is a loserís way.
You can use camera only for memorizing and likeness but if you donít know very well texture and constructions (anatomy, perspectiveÖ) you have to have your subject (not necessary the same but similar) in front of your eyes along with your photos.

Alexei Antonov
__________________
www.artpapa.com
www.antonovart.com
  #37   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 05:59 PM
artpapa's Avatar
artpapa artpapa is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 19
 
Hails from United States
Quote:
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Johnnie , I didn't say that "you" said it, I am just comparing the info from your video with the info from the online demo. I'm just looking for clues tthat might be relevant.
Linda,
Proportions of the medium ingredients are not critically important.
Major thing is turpentine mixed with the dammar varnish.
In the early stages is better to use lighter mixture, for example: 2 parts of dammar and 8 parts of turpentine. In the finishing layers, use heavier proportions, for example: 1 part of dammar and 2 parts of turpentine.

Yes, compromising technique is very possible, even Old Masters used to try different shortcuts. With one exception: this is very hard to cut or revise certain stages until you learn the most complete technological formula.

Alexei
__________________
www.artpapa.com
www.antonovart.com
  #38   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-29-2003, 07:39 PM
Linda Ciallelo's Avatar
Linda Ciallelo Linda Ciallelo is offline
Lord of the Arts
Binghamton,NY,USA
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,309
 
Hails from United States
Quote:
Originally posted by artpapa

Linda,
Proportions of the medium ingredients are not critically important.
Major thing is turpentine mixed with the dammar varnish.
In the early stages is better to use lighter mixture, for example: 2 parts of dammar and 8 parts of turpentine. In the finishing layers, use heavier proportions, for example: 1 part of dammar and 2 parts of turpentine.

Yes, compromising technique is very possible, even Old Masters used to try different shortcuts. With one exception: this is very hard to cut or revise certain stages until you learn the most complete technological formula.

Alexei

Alexei, do you rub linseed oil on the canvas before every layer? I am mostly interested in the beginning of tthe painting, in the umber layer. I know you said that you use the paint like watercolor transparently at that stage. Is it correct that you are using the turp/damar mixture for those early layers with no linseed oil?
Thanks very much.
  #39   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-30-2003, 12:26 AM
Johnnie's Avatar
Johnnie Johnnie is offline
Immortalized
"" Lincoln, Ontario""
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,011
 
Hails from Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Johnnie , I didn't say that "you" said it, I am just comparing the info from your video with the info from the online demo. I'm just looking for clues tthat might be relevant.


Well I didnt say you did. If I had referenced you I would have quoted as I am now. I never said I had a video I said I had bought the still life.pdf file that is available. Might be good if you read things two or three times then you might understand a bit better.

Turps/varnish/lavender oil at the ratios I had given back there from his still life file would have NO flexibility problems what so-ever. There again you have mis-read.

What your failing to realize there is linseed on the canvas all ready all over it. Why would there need to have any more linseed in the mix of turps/damar and lavander oil? Its already on the canvas from the rubbin in.

Geeezzz !!! Oh I know its all my fault. !! Your Turn

Johnnie
__________________
"Every Day Is A Great Day
Some Are Just Better Than Others"

Last edited by Johnnie : 11-30-2003 at 12:38 AM.
  #40   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-30-2003, 02:02 AM
Dana Design
 
Posts: n/a
 
Fascinating, interesting thread. Waiting for answer to:

Quote:
Alexei, do you rub linseed oil on the canvas before every layer? I am mostly interested in the beginning of tthe painting, in the umber layer. I know you said that you use the paint like watercolor transparently at that stage. Is it correct that you are using the turp/damar mixture for those early layers with no linseed oil?


Thank you!

Dana
  #41   Report Bad Post  
Old 11-30-2003, 03:13 PM
lenu's Avatar
lenu lenu is offline
Member
Louisville, KY
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 89
 
Hails from United States
Artpapa, thanks so much for your interest in WetCanvas, your valuable instruction on painting glass and for your patience.

I have visited your websites and viewed your demos for the apple and the rose. I have read some threads here on WC referring to the seven layer technique/process, and I have some questions:

1)Drying time. Am I correct that using the linseed oil wipe on each stage and a damar + turps medium requires a seven week drying time between stages? That would be seven stages at seven weeks each, 49 weeks to complete the seven stage process. Is that correct?
2)Reference. As previously asked, what does a beginner do for a reference if the subject is perishable? In your answer above, I gather that one would substitute another, similar (hopefully very similar) subject. If a still life includes an orange or an apple or a rose, surely it will look more like a walnut, a dust bunny or a science project by the 49th week.
3)Scraping. Is it correct that before applying the linseed oil at the beginning of each stage, the entire surface is scraped with a razor blade? Is this for the purpose of removing material? Scuffing the surface for better adhesion? Leveling high points of thick paint?
4)Opacity. If one is to consider each stage as preparation for the next, and if one is to (mostly) paint opaquely using the underlayer as a value map for the new layer, the artist is painting the same image five, six or seven times. Correct? I assume that painting glass is an exception to the seven step process. You are clearly in a color stage when you begin the glass. Correct?
5)Is there any concern that the sulphur in the Cadmiums or Ultramarine will darken Lead White or Naples Yellow? I assume that you have no such concern, but my studies thus far lead me to ask the question.
6)Is there any concern that Umber in the first layers, followed by some inherently "leaner" pigments can lead to premature cracking? Again, I assume that you have no such concern, but my studies thus far lead me to ask the question.

I admire your work. Your results are testimony to your skill and the methods you employ.

Len
  #42   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-01-2003, 04:07 PM
artpapa's Avatar
artpapa artpapa is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 19
 
Hails from United States
Quote:
Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Alexei, do you rub linseed oil on the canvas before every layer? I am mostly interested in the beginning of tthe painting, in the umber layer. I know you said that you use the paint like watercolor transparently at that stage. Is it correct that you are using the turp/damar mixture for those early layers with no linseed oil?
Thanks very much.
Linda,

No oil in the medium, because paints usually have certain amount of oil.
Instead, treat each well dry layer with oil for better performance.

Alexei
__________________
www.artpapa.com
www.antonovart.com
  #43   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-01-2003, 04:11 PM
artpapa's Avatar
artpapa artpapa is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 19
 
Hails from United States
Quote:
Originally posted by lenu
Artpapa, thanks so much for your interest in WetCanvas, your valuable instruction on painting glass and for your patience.

I have visited your websites and viewed your demos for the apple and the rose. I have read some threads here on WC referring to the seven layer technique/process, and I have some questions:

1)Drying time. Am I correct that using the linseed oil wipe on each stage and a damar + turps medium requires a seven week drying time between stages? That would be seven stages at seven weeks each, 49 weeks to complete the seven stage process. Is that correct?
2)Reference. As previously asked, what does a beginner do for a reference if the subject is perishable? In your answer above, I gather that one would substitute another, similar (hopefully very similar) subject. If a still life includes an orange or an apple or a rose, surely it will look more like a walnut, a dust bunny or a science project by the 49th week.
3)Scraping. Is it correct that before applying the linseed oil at the beginning of each stage, the entire surface is scraped with a razor blade? Is this for the purpose of removing material? Scuffing the surface for better adhesion? Leveling high points of thick paint?
4)Opacity. If one is to consider each stage as preparation for the next, and if one is to (mostly) paint opaquely using the underlayer as a value map for the new layer, the artist is painting the same image five, six or seven times. Correct? I assume that painting glass is an exception to the seven step process. You are clearly in a color stage when you begin the glass. Correct?
5)Is there any concern that the sulphur in the Cadmiums or Ultramarine will darken Lead White or Naples Yellow? I assume that you have no such concern, but my studies thus far lead me to ask the question.
6)Is there any concern that Umber in the first layers, followed by some inherently "leaner" pigments can lead to premature cracking? Again, I assume that you have no such concern, but my studies thus far lead me to ask the question.

I admire your work. Your results are testimony to your skill and the methods you employ.

Len
Len,
1. Ideal time to 1 painting about 1 year in the process. But if you live somewhere in the warmer climate or have opportunity to display drying layer to the sun or use artificial drying gadget, process can go way faster.
Anyway, if you have in process letís said seven to ten paintings, sooner or later you can finish painting almost every day.

2. If youíre not familiar with the texture, you will need your own similar object only in the finishing layers. Otherwise you can use your experience instead.

3. Scraping. You need mostly for removing dust and brush hair, leveling high points of thick paint in the small extent thatís most universal method but you can ignore it or use something else instead.

4. correct

5. Cadmiums Red and Yellow are contemporary alternatives for the vermilion and lead yellow. I have never used Ultramarine, because itís not the same color what we see in the old masters paintings, I recommend use Prussian blue instead.

6. Umbra in the first shadow layer-thatís what the Flemish masters have used, along with completely dry layering, oil film and safe natural pigments condition of most Flemish paintings still pretty satisfactory after 300-400 years already.

Actually Iím talking about Flemish technique resurrection and adaptation to twenty first century, but not innovation or reconsideration ( I do not have time to be chemistry explorationist)
__________________
www.artpapa.com
www.antonovart.com
  #44   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-02-2003, 04:06 AM
palob's Avatar
palob palob is offline
Veteran Member
Bratislava, Slovakia
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 535
 
Hails from Slovakia
Quote:
Originally posted by artpapa

I recommend use Prussian blue instead.

Artpapa, aren't you concerned with Prussian blue lightfastness? Some sources I've checked state it fades. Is it possible to use Phthalo blue instead?

Pavol
  #45   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-02-2003, 04:04 PM
artpapa's Avatar
artpapa artpapa is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 19
 
Hails from United States
Quote:
Originally posted by palob

Artpapa, aren't you concerned with Prussian blue lightfastness? Some sources I've checked state it fades. Is it possible to use Phthalo blue instead?

Pavol

Pavol,
Prussian blue we are using very stingy, in the difficult mixtures. Open Prussian blue is ridiculous to use.
The good news that Prussian blue does not change the color temperature. If you use drying technique under the sunlight, when you decolor all available limits of lightfastness, as old masters did, your Blues will be safe.
Personally I didn't use Phthalo blue because that's too strong and I am not familiar with aftermath.

Alexei
__________________
www.artpapa.com
www.antonovart.com

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:59 AM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.