I would also question WHY PR83 is widely offered by respectable manufacturers, as-is or in mixes. Look at Royal Talens Van Gogh. Same for PO34 (Van Gogh, or DR Georgian WMO). And they claim it is lightfast.

I think most books for beginners should stipulate a permanent Alizarin Crimson. Advanced students — or freaks (like me) — may take an interest in the various arguments that some have made that PR83 can be rendered trustworthy.

Incidentally, WN insists that their Rose Madder really is less fugitive than any other. They have a special way of making the stuff.

I have to admit that there is nothing quite like real PR83.

Williamsburg Oils:
[IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/04-Nov-2019/2014318-PR83.jpg[/IMG]

And where the comparison with other “permanent” crimsons or other pigments at the same condition? When I did my own test, I did MANY pigments exposed to sun light and PR83 wasn’t the worst of them. I gues, that even some of quinacridone can fade in mixture 1:10 with photo-sensitive Titanium White paint when exposed 3 months on direct sun lite.

Why in 2017 does a book by a young (30ish), good professional artist still advertise Alizarin Crimson (not mentioning the permanent version, or any warning or it’s lightfastness) as on their palette to use.

One painting description in the book even says you will need Rose Dore (which in W&N Artist oils is NR9 – Madder Lake)

Made me wince..

He sounds like an extremely knowledgable young person that is aware of the absurdity of lightfastness testing and how unrelated it is to real life, or maybe he has learned about such things from a seasoned artist like myself.

Ok, I get to crap on the whole Aliz. Crimson argument, [I]but just a little bit:)[/I]

I have in a window above me a lightfast test of Michael Harding’s Alizarin Crimson I did over 3 1/2 years ago.

The test features a ‘regular’, even layer of AC at full strength (I even dry-brush blended it to achieve maximum evenness), and a 5-1 ratio of Titanium white + AC. HALF of these paint stripes have been covered with canvas paper with aluminum foil glued to the back to prevent any sunlight from affecting that area.

The full strength layer (it is NOT massed together in a big dark lump, it is a thinnish layer with no bumps or raised areas) is at about 95% of what the covered area is at in terms of value. The chroma is still very high, and it doesn’t seem to have changed in hue either.

The 5-1 white-mixed layer is at about 85-90% of the value of the covered area in value, the hue and chroma seem a little warmer/duller.

This test has been in a window getting direct sunlight for 3-5 hours a day, and indirect for the rest of the day. And, I live in Southern California where it’s ALWAYS sunny and very, very hot from July-November (even this week it’s going to hit 85 degrees F.

I believe, based on this test, that AC may be fugitive, but a high quality paint (and I consider Michael Harding the highest I’ve ever used) may make a very big difference.

If after getting hit with hot, direct sunlight hours a day over close to 4 years will barely change the appearance of this paint, I have confidence in using it and will continue to use it. It is perhaps my favorite single pigment color.

Now, just to make sure, this is Michael Harding’s Alizarin Crimson in your test, not Harding’s Alizarin Claret?
Since Harding’s Alizarin Claret is PR177 and not PR83.
Your results sound more like PR177.
Every time I’ve tested PR83 it’s faded badly.