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  • #482797
    hobbyartist87
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        Today I swatched two of the watercolor neutrals from the big Artist’s Loft set my brother gave me for New Year’s. Naturally, I compared them to one of my Cotman colors.

        Here are the swatches:

        Artist’s Loft colors are Burnt Umber and their Black. The Cotman swatch at the very bottom on the right page is Payne’s Gray.

        This let me see how much paint quality relates to cost and definitely makes me appreciate the higher quality paints. This leads me to my dilemma and where I need your advice.

        After our return from our ski trip, I noticed my Cotman watercolors (I had them in airtight palette during the trip) had the smell to them that reminded me of bacterial growth smell I remember from my biology labs. When I realized this, I scraped all of my Cotman paints out of the palette and disinfected the palette. Now I am contemplating a return to watercolors.

        In recent threads I read that for a beginner it’s best to start with one color that I can get a full range from, then go to the combination of Ultramarine and Burnt Sienna. My question is: to follow this advice, would you recommend I get either Cotman or Van Gogh brand or go straight to the tertiary palette? If tertiary palette, what brand would you recommend to a beginner who has a budget of $40-70 for watercolor paints?

        Sandra

        #934269
        briantmeyer
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            I’d recommend Da Vinci to start, they have 8mL from $5 to 9 per tube

            https://www.davincipaints.com/category-s/198.htm

            Artist grade. Cheap. As good as any of the top brands. Probably get 7-10 tubes with your budget. I get the 37mL tubes, they are about as much as the 15mL tubes. Note that if you use a lot of this or that color, a huge tube really offers a lot of value.

            Let your paints dry out. When you dole them out fill the whole pan, don’t try to save them, then you can rewet them. Generally all of them have an anti fungal, perhaps formaldehyde, those with honey use that as its a natural anti fungal. When you go back to paint, top off the pan and mist them, let em soak, if the pans entire bottom is full the water has to go down.

            #934264
            hobbyartist87
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                Brian, thank you. Have to admit, Da Vinci watercolors are tempting at that size and price. I once read on handprint.com that tube watercolors are up to 50% water. Based on this wouldn’t Daniel Smith watercolors sticks be more economical actually? What are your thoughts on this?

                Sandra

                #934280
                w/c nana8
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                    There is a thread from a couple of days ago that mentions watercolor sticks. Personally I like them as an adjunct to my tube paints on my main palette. I have about 10 sticks from Daniel Smith and use them as ‘pan’ paint. They were cheaper than the tubes when I was first starting out. You do have to reset them just like the dried paints on the palette. I break off chunks of them and I also bought the cases for them from Blick. I do not apply them directly to the paper like crayons. The Daniel Smith essentials are great, fairly priced, and contain 6 5ml tubes of cool and warm reds, blues and yellows.

                    I’ve had no problems with intensity with them, as others have, but that’s my style. I would hesitate to use sticks only instead of tubes. There seems to be a better selection of colors with tubes. Brian suggests DaVinci. Cheap Joes house brand is rumored to be made by them as well, but American Journey (Cheap Joes) has gone up in price tremendously.

                    I have been involved in watercolor for a relatively short time, but I know what works for me. Others will have differing opinions—that’s how we discover new materials and techniques. By the way, my first set was a Koi Sakura travel set, and I didn’t paint with them long before I felt the need to invest in artist grade paint. You will notice a huge difference in pigment intensity.

                    Good luck and happy painting!!

                    ~ Carol

                    'We are too prone to engrave our trials on marble, and write our blessings in sand.' ~ Spurgeon
                    C&C appreciated

                    #934279
                    Macarona
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                        There are various cheaper brands, but they cost differently depending on the country.
                        I know Mijello, Turner, Shin Han, MGraham and
                        Jacksonart’s own brand.
                        Mijello has a pure pigment set which I think is well put together.
                        Too bad there are no sets with 5-8 tubes for beginners who are well put together.

                        kind regards Macarona
                        Stay calm, you can not protect all people from mistakes they make. They should also be allowed to learn from mistakes and gain experience.
                        Especially financial mistakes.:angel: Keep calm, you can not prevent that there are not only reasonable suggestions from people. Specifically on the subject: only try and how long. Important topic: Please Save the Internet, that we can still share a lot of knowledge. # No articles 11 and 13!!!

                        #934281
                        Marshall
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                            I have mostly MGraham (15 tubes) and 3 tubes of Daniel Smith. My plan is to supplement them with my Cotmans for colors that I don’t have in MG. I also have a 36 color set of Albrecht Durer water soluble pencils that I could use in a pench.

                            But my goal is to slowly add more MG and DS (maybe WN) as I go along and learn my needs.

                            Marshall
                            Living the retired life in NE Florida

                            #934270
                            briantmeyer
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                                Brian, thank you. Have to admit, Da Vinci watercolors are tempting at that size and price. I once read on handprint.com that tube watercolors are up to 50% water. Based on this wouldn’t Daniel Smith watercolors sticks be more economical actually? What are your thoughts on this?

                                They are in many cases better than other brands, their earth trio plus ultramarine are my favorite, plus their yellow ochre is actually a nice yellow in tints, other brands are duller. My suggestion is get many brands, never let yourself just buy from one until you find your favorite versions of each pigment.

                                Demo artists hired for our workshops only use one brand if there is a sponsorship, even then its clear they use a variety of brands. Some describe it as a united nations of colors. Lot of top artists use da vinci ( also called american journey ) simply since its cheaper and very high quality, those 37mL tubes at $15 each really make a difference.

                                On sticks, They are half as big and nearly as expensive, some do this, but you should start with tubes. Only after you get rich color focus on sticks and pans.

                                #934265
                                hobbyartist87
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                                    Brian, Carol, Macarona, Marshall, thank you all.

                                    Brian, I’ll stick with tubes for now. Since I need to replace most of my Cotmans, would I be better off getting a single tube (either Ultramarine or Payne’s Gray) or getting about 12 tubes for a tertiary palette?

                                    Sandra

                                    #934272

                                    Ah the never-ending search for the “right” dark browns and neutrals.

                                    Yeah, I posted a whole thread on the subject https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1475654 in order to start my shopping trip for one or another. Thanks to info in that thread, I initially thought that I wanted, IIRC, M Graham Neutral Tint or QoR Neutral Tint, on the premise that I didn’t want any mixture which had a black pigment in it (and also didn’t want a Sepia or an Indigo at all.)

                                    But now I’m rethinking my strategy and don’t know what I will shop for, or if I will actually buy anything or not. Mixing your own darks and neutralizers is also an excellent strategy. Similarly, all the earth tones in the less saturated oranges, yellows, and reds zone (well, call ’em “browns” or what-not) are often mixed pigments which manufacturers have given traditional color names (often named after a certain region’s land, viz., Cassel Earth, Mars Red, Indian Red, Burnt Umber, Raw Sienna, etc.). These, too, I’m wondering about … I can certainly make my own for these earth tones too, but I won’t end up with the same effect as I would when making my own neutralizing darks.

                                    That’s because, in my own (weird?) head-space, I think earth tones are different from neutralizers. Does that make sense?

                                    Basically, I think of the neutralizing darks as, really, only three or four distinct hues — all are dark, very low in chroma (very close to grey) but very high in saturation (very much pigmentation in the paint). Going by more traditional names, there is a blue one (Indigo), a green one (Payne’s Grey), and a few brownish and reddish ones (Neutral Tint, Sepia, Van Dyke Brown, some of the earths, etc.), a very neutral one (Jane’s Grey), etc.. Each one of these, in my mind, was INVENTED (or ADOPTED INTO watercolor) for the purpose of being a neutralizer. For mixing. Whereas I think of the earth-tones as a much wider range of intersecting and overlapping hues, mostly hues that represent the natural world’s own natural minerals, and therefore of colors which PRE-EXISTED the artist. What I’m saying here, is, roughly, for my mind, in painting and other color-oriented art, the “neutralizer” was a human construct, invented for the purpose of making a certain effect (neutralizing) in a painting; whereas the “earth tone” is a natural phenomenon, adopted from the real world into the artist’s world as it is, status mostly unchanged. Or, so it FEELS to me.

                                    Consequently, “mixing” my own earth-tones seems somehow to miss the point, whereas mixing my own neutralizers (according to my admittedly rather idiosyncratic definition, above) seems a bit more appropriate.

                                    Well, that’s just an excursion into my own weird head-space, didn’t mean to complicate matters too much …

                                    -----
                                    Certified Closet Management Engineer, Slung Watercolor Society of America

                                    #934266
                                    hobbyartist87
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                                        Clifton, thank you. Your reply definitely helps longer-term.

                                        My thinking was along the lines of: now that I need to replace most of my Cotman colors, do I assemble a full tertiary palette plus a few earth tones right from the start or do I get a tube of either ultramarine or payne’s gray (or another color/pigment I’d be able to get a full range of values from) and use to learn for a while before getting the other colors.

                                        Assembling a full tertiary palette would allow me to get all the colors I need right now and be able to place the order online, which means getting paints for cheaper without paying for shipping. On the other hand, getting a single of tube of either ultramarine or payne’s gray would allow me to begin getting used to how watercolors handle but would be cheaper to purchase at Michaels (once coupon and taxes or tax and shipping get factored in).

                                        Cotmans are the lowest quality paint that I would consider (my art is nowhere near the point where it can sell and probably won’t for another few years so I’m hesitant to start off with artist-grade paints, especially since my next major purchase will have to be at least $40-50 worth of watercolor paper (artist-grade sheets at dickblick.com). Yet, this is a case of replacing paints. If a beginner came to you asking which approach you would take (single color that can give you full range of values or full palette) that would give best value for the money without breaking the bank, what would you tell them?

                                        Sandra

                                        #934263

                                        I suggest this set: https://www.dickblick.com/items/01767-1009/%5B/URL%5D It’s the most sensible set I have seen. It’s a quite decent value. (I agree with Brian – DaVinci or American Journey are usually the best deal, in the U.S., per ml.) And it gives beginners a place to start. The tubes are small, so it isn’t a huge commitment, but it is a solid foundation. I would add a tube of burnt sienna (Transparent Red Oxide, in the DS range is my favorite, as it is a bit oranger). That’s it. You can use some of these colours for monotones, if you like, or mix the ultramarine with the burnt sienna. I don’t think beginners should be afraid of colour, but having a lot of them isn’t necessary and can be confusing. (Honestly, I would gladly paint for a year, with just those seven colours, myself!) Then, you can form opinions on what colours you like and what you want to change or add. If you prefer a different starting palette, with colours more spread out on the colour wheel, go for it! Six tubes and a neutral (I strongly recommend brown, for mixing with blue) and you are good to go!

                                        Have fun!

                                        :) Noelle

                                        #934261

                                        Hi Hobbyartist87… Ask 100 Artists a question and you’ll likely get 100 answers. :) Over time, we all develop loyalties to favourite colours or brands.

                                        First things first. Depending on where you live, the price of your paints becomes an important decision point. In Canada, for example, Da Vinci paints which are a great value are priced from $10-$15 for the 15 ml tubes and $15 – $25 for the 37 ml tubes.

                                        Secondly, American Journey is a brand manufactured by Da Vinci and sold exclusively through Cheap Joe’s art store in the United States.

                                        My advice for Beginners is really quite simple. Begin with a split primary palette and then add an earth or two along with a couple of secondary colours such as orange, a single pigment green and maybe a violet.

                                        Clifton, I’m also inclined to mix my neutralizers because I can maintain colour harmony by using whatever is in my painting. The earths are unique in behaviour and dispersion. Also, remember that all neutralizers are not created equally and their pigment mixes tend to vary from brand to brand.

                                        Char --

                                        CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

                                        #934275
                                        Elliria
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                                            I don’t yet own a set of watercolor paint (I’m currently content with my watercolor pencils, gouache, and acrylic paints), but I will be wanting to get one. To that end, I’ve done quite a bit of research into my choices and have narrowed it down to Daniel Smith Extra Fine Watercolors. A set of six of them (warm and cool red, blue, and yellow) are within your price range, are also available as open stock (along with hundreds of other colors), don’t smell (according to posts here on Wet Canvas), are professional quality, don’t use fillers, and are very light-fast. That all sounds really good to me, so I’ve got them on my wish list so I can just click and grab them when the mood strikes. You might want to try them, too.

                                            #934278
                                            RomanB
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                                                St. Petersburg White Nights. Look for pigment info and buy only mono-pigment and fully lightfast paints.

                                                #934273

                                                My advice? Don’t make my mistake. I bought every pigment I could get my hands on. But it’s silly to try to buy the entire rainbow. Fun, but unnecessary, and therefore potentially a waste of time and money.

                                                Well, it’s not so bad. I am glad to have done so, for I get to experiment with a lot of new pigments. But it didn’t really teach me much about painting. If you want to have a good background in materials-science type information about pigments, then, go ahead and buy a bunch of pigments. I have somewhere around 75 or 80 different tubes of single-pigment paints, various brands, some paints that have the same pigments from different manufacturers, some pigments that can’t be found easily any more, some pigments that only come from one manufacturer. I use about six of them.

                                                Buying pigments teaches you about pigments. It doesn’t really teach you about painting. Well, sure, there is some small impact on learning to paint, but having extra tubes of pigments has only about a 5% impact on your painting skill. For example, seeing several granulating pigments do their granulation thing, is a good experience, for helping you to understand what exactly Ultramarine Blue is doing when it granulates. But you can probably accomplish that knowledge about Ultramarine Blue without also buying two Cobalts in the greens or turquoises range and also a Van Dyke Brown made with NBr9. Those are also granulating; and yes, I know something intuitive about granulation by comparing Ultramarine Blue’s granulation to their granulation, but I’m probably only going to end up painting with Ultramarine Blue, so I don’t really need all those extra greens and turquoises and browns for any other purpose except for the purpose of owning them, themselves, and comparing them to … to what? … to each other, I guess. And then I never paint with them. Or, if I do, it’s because I ran out of whatever else was my standard in that range (f.e. a PR101 brown). In other words, I could have stayed with that standard and bought a second tube of it, thus increasing my knowledge of it rather than starting again at zero with a second pigment in that range. Distraction.

                                                So I suggest, unless you are really interested in materials science in of and for itself and independent of painting skill, don’t buy the rainbow. Pick no more than (X?) some number of COLORS (probably with an eye to maximizing the width of your gamut across the whole color-wheel), then learn which PIGMENTS would be best to represent them, and stick to that plan for a while. I can’t tell you what the number X should be — forty seems way too high (though forty is a number which comes to mind because it would probably be wise to get only pigments which count among Bruce MacEvoy’s “top forty pigments” from Handprint-dot-com); whereas merely six seems a teeny bit low; so, just, umm?, somewhere in between, depending on budget, availability, etc..

                                                But what do I know? I’m a beginner like you. I do not regret buying all those paints, and I’ll certainly keep and eventually use them. They add up to a large expense in past purchases which now sit idly on a shelf in my house, but the mad oniomania for pigments didn’t actually interfere with any other (perhaps more important) purchases, so, no harm = no foul? I guess …

                                                In retrospect, I realize now, I was simply mildly misinformed. I somehow got the idea, that possessing a HUGE NUMBER of different pigments, would be a better way to know about pigments. But that’s probably inaccurate, because ownership of large numbers of extraneous pigments is probably not the best way to learn about your own specific pigments for your own specific painting purposes. I don’t really think I even knew that I had that idea. It was just an assumption — gotta learn more! therefore, must buy more! — fostered by the sight of art store inventory. There it was on the shelf. Had to buy it! Glad I have them all, but now I realize, they were a side-track, an excursion into something other than painting. My excursion into the materials-science of pigments became a year or two distraction from so much else about learning to paint.

                                                So many other things to master: brush skill, palette management, water-to-paint ratios, good versus bad paper, paper seizing and surfaces, seeing color variation, matching color when mixing, abstracting in order to stop trying to match color, the difference between ambiently lighted color and local color, seeing the big shapes, painting background washes to flavor the light without caring about the details, keeping a wash alive with Mister Bead’s help, etc. etc. …

                                                -----
                                                Certified Closet Management Engineer, Slung Watercolor Society of America

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