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Old 05-10-2004, 10:35 AM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

It is quite acceptable to be Anti-American. I'm sure there are plenty of sites and galleries who would love this work!

However if I were to see this piece, I would dismiss it as being disrespectful and would walk away.
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:46 AM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ara
It is quite acceptable to be Anti-American. I'm sure there are plenty of sites and galleries who would love this work!

However if I were to see this piece, I would dismiss it as being disrespectful and would walk away.

Perhaps we have an artist here who does love his country and enough to stand up and be counted for what he believes to be true. Is that really anti-american? I do believe this has already been discussed at length on Kelly's thread.

Mikey
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:32 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
Perhaps we have an artist here who does love his country and enough to stand up and be counted for what he believes to be true. Is that really anti-american? I do believe this has already been discussed at length on Kelly's thread.

Mikey

Mikey,

I see the image is anti-American. As I said, the viewpoint is very popular and would gather a lot of positive and negative responses.

What the artist loves (as you said, his country) takes second place to the image he presents.

I would not wish the work taken down. I would simply walk away from it. And, by the way, I would be happy to view the artist's other work; because I am not insensitive to the comradeship between fellow artists, no matter what our beliefs may be.

Ara
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:45 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Ara,

This raises the question of what you mean by anti-american. I love my own country, which has certain things in common with the US these days, but if I see the enemy within should I remain silent. I am not a militant, rather one of the long time silent majority without any real political stance these days.

Mikey
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Old 05-10-2004, 01:05 PM
stephanf stephanf is offline
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

and Ara...by your comments i purport that you believe yourself to be pro-american...and me not...

ok, before i give any validity to your statments and question your intelligence, i want you to explain yourself and why you think that...
not just quick news bite statements....im anti american...(to which I take offense, but know there are people like you who dont understand what is going on here; im not mad but you are very WRONG) so support yourself with logic so maybe i learn something i dont know about myself

at first glance, which is all i think you looked at, you have assumed i to be anti american,.... but i say you gotta dig a little deeper to see what this piece is about....
cause you really havent given the time to think it out and i would like to teach you something about the responsibility you have as an american, to see that YOUR laws and democratic PRINCIPLES are actually something that are practiced, as opposed to words used to cover up practices exactly opposite to the principles and laws we live under...


so if you want to attack me then i feel the right to have you support that attack...and i in turn will try to answer that as best i can...this here, right now, is an exercise in free speech...

what is the 1st amendment about?
How will a democracy really be free unless there is freedom of the press and media...they gotta put both sides to a story out there....so that we the people can discuss BOTH sides to make a valid decision...
WHAT about the piece is ANTI american...

lastly, something you might not have also noticed is that this piece is in the shape of a cross? i was wondering if you can you tell me why...
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Old 05-10-2004, 01:24 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ara
Mikey,

I see the image is anti-American. As I said, the viewpoint is very popular and would gather a lot of positive and negative responses.

What the artist loves (as you said, his country) takes second place to the image he presents.

I would not wish the work taken down. I would simply walk away from it. And, by the way, I would be happy to view the artist's other work; because I am not insensitive to the comradeship between fellow artists, no matter what our beliefs may be.

Ara

how can a viewpoint that is very popular, as you say, with alot of others and i would assume you did mean other americans, be said in your view to be "anti-american"-

do i detect an arrogance that your opinion as how you see american values to be is correct....but me and those other americans who agree with what i say, to be of secondary to your "esteemed" opinions....wait is that how bush got elected???not by the majority vote but by those, and do i mean this from the bottom of my heart, but instead by those "right" thinking ones,...
hey you people better wake up...its not about the money...its about quality of life...that comes with freedom...and if ever i have seen a time to be jumping up and down about what some "right" thinking people who think it their destiny to tell me what i can and cannot do....this is it and this is now...
its called "Dont tread on me" look it up see where it comes from...
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Old 05-10-2004, 01:25 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
Ara,

This raises the question of what you mean by anti-american. I love my own country, which has certain things in common with the US these days, but if I see the enemy within should I remain silent. I am not a militant, rather one of the long time silent majority without any real political stance these days.

Mikey

Hi Mikey,

First may I say warmest regards from Massachusetts.

I agree with you that you should not remain silent. It comes down to a matter of taste and judgement in how we each choose to express our ideas. I would prefer to not see any flag used in a disrespectful manner, simply because it paints a broad stroke against the wide range of people which the flag represents. Thus I fear the point of the art as being lost, which is a shame.

In the 1942 British movie "The First of the Few", filmmaker/actor Leslie Howard included a scene that gets a fantastic point across. Who can forget Lady Houston's "Wake Up England!" electric sign that she configured on her large private yacht. It offended many English viewers, and caused many to laugh as well. "Go ahead and laugh," she said. "I may hate my government but I do love my country."

I suspect that most people of good character want peace and want to be fair. The problem is when our cultural differences force us into us vs. them situations. I look forward to the day when each side is willing to try to understand the other. That will be something to see.

Ara
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Old 05-10-2004, 01:47 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

as to you reply to mikeys....maybe you do see there are some problems here...do you sit at home and say I disagree...

or would you jump up and down on the street corner to disseminate your message...

or would you make something that others may just take notice of..like what im doing now...i see your point you would walk away...but then who was it that looses out...me or you..

cause i just might be saying something that needs to be said that this present government (group of conservatives= and i may add a MINORITY) dont want to hear...truth
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Old 05-10-2004, 02:04 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Hi Stephan

Isn't it great to live in a country where you can create art/ speak out against your own government without risking losing your life or your families life?

I don't think I'm mistaken, but for the last 30 or so years artists in Iraq that made a sculpture against the Sadam regime would have been dealt with.

Those of us living in the free world are lucky we can express ourselves.
Freedom isn't free though-wish it was, but thats just wishful thinking.
Only in John Lennon songs
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Old 05-10-2004, 02:11 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanf

or would you make something that others may just take notice of..like what im doing now...i see your point you would walk away...but then who was it that looses out...me or you..

If I walk away from your art piece, no one loses out. I understand your political point, yet I will not support art that disrespects a flag, a religion, a group of people. If you're intent on picking a fight, there are others who will participate.
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Old 05-10-2004, 03:41 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

i recognize that freedom does require nurturing, and protecting...in case any of you havent noticed...our freedoms are in jeporady...due to terroists...and right wing thinkers..

walking away is fine...its your right...

did you not infer that I am not patriotic,...was i wrong with that....

if so, then I think you obniously have missed the point

and when those what i perceive as great big hypocrites in government start dictating what rights i can have and not have based on their own conception of a religious belief,,,then yes ...thats when i get involved and since i happen to be a visual artist i create, visual thought for others to see...and if you percieve it to be anti american....have the courtsey to explain yourself

i realize i may have mis-interpreted things you have said...point it out

its ok to put an american flag on your car and drive it around...or do you also think that anti american...put it on your guitar and sing about God...and now thats american...or is that anti american too? ill bet 50 bucks you havent gone around calling them anti american have you...

so its ok to put a flag onto things you agree with,, and its anti-patroitic to put stripes on an idea you dont agree with....

but then when i put the stripes on a piece that talks about the futility of war and killing and metaphor to the right wing, who make money off of promoting war...now thats un-patriotic, right....

i do admit that the work should make you initially stop and say hey you cant do that...and thats exactly why i did....cause i can...its called freedom

i dont want a fight but instead a discussion....and am sorry for coming out like i wanted to fight as I really do wish a discussion....as the creator of the piece I would have better insight to why i made this...

maybe you just think i need a big knock on the ole noggin, cause thats American...and patriotic...

if you cant discuss this then i would have to assume and think you must have a hard time to articulate your opinion as to back up what you say....because you cant....

i think what you really have a problem with is that i have a difference of opinion as to you...and that I have put an american flag standing right besides that opinion...which differs from that of your administration which you support...

did you ever notice how some people in iraq were perfectly happy with Sadam and his regime....they controlled the media, TV and news,...and would be the ones to point to someone like me, had i lived there, and say lets get this commiepinko....cause he aint in line to what WE want him to say...see any analogies here?

and now the iraqs are happy to be rid of saddam but not so happy that we have set them free and let them make their own decisons...

and yes i love my freedom and i want it back.
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Old 05-10-2004, 03:43 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

our freedom is gone? thanks for telling me!
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:00 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by snipa
our freedom is gone? thanks for telling me!
youra quick read and i knew after i posted i would be dealing with that...yes, our freedoms are in jeporady...why was this piece taken down, why does the media not print the truth about the numbers involved in the antiwar movements, they consistently put it on page 3-5 and underestimate the numbers of people marching in the streets, why is it the administration doesnt want you to see the flag drapped coffins depicted in the news, why is it the news in Iraq has to be "filtered" by censors before they can print it on the news, why is it that this prison torture scandal took so long to reach us...why is it right now they dont release the photos and videos of all that....and dont tell me to protect the rights to the accused...dont you think they could blurr all the faces out to the perpetrators and victims...why did many stations refuse to air a recent documentary where all they were doing was paying respect to those killed, by announcing their names on national TV...
i can go on to my personal firsthand knowledge of police activites...the admisitrations holding captives without charges or rights to counsel for YEARS now...

a democracy cannot exist without a free press....and if a priviliged few take over the press and media cause they buy it...which is clearly underway...then our freedoms are not really being given an opportunity to take place... go check into some of the peace orgs...get their first line data...learn a little about whats been happening...dont take my word for it..
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:09 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

Its funny that people with similar opinions politically to yours don't get upset to the fact that we are still bogged down in Bosnia. It must be that your buddy Clinton was in office them so that makes it ok to brush minor details under the rug like that.

Funny how politics can cloud judgement on the sides of all parties involved. It's the hypocracy of things on both sides that make me quite sick of it all.
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:38 PM
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Re: american crusaders firesale of the twisted cross

i know politics and religion and i get them mixed up together here...sorry i dont follow at all about bosnia...

im more worried about what goes on in my backyard...taking our freedoms away in the name of terrorism is what they want to do....seems like to me that is exactly what the terrorists intended...i dont know if you got this part or not..but back to the theme:

the miitary industrial complex wastes zillions and puts money in their pockets...you think that they want peace to break out???

i want all parties to stop killing each other and work on non-violent ideas how to resolve things....

im not about fighting anyone, except in the arena of reason...and over things that affect our health and freedoms...

everyone put down the weapons...then lets work on the problems that exist...pollution, respecting each others beliefs, equal treatment, and so on....
the list of problems we have to work on is huge...

i do not subscribe to the theory that he with the biggest stick is right....just may be he might be a bully....continuing war as a way to resolve things is a circular arguement that we all see will someday cause alot more deaths for someone you know...

Yes there is alot of things about this world of which i havent a clue...but the things i do know about are the things i will deal with...

Bush claims he is christian...and so does the religious right...but dont listen to their retoric about Gods way...cause they betray their own religion by their actions....so if you call yourself a christian, while promoting the killing and participating in it...then you really never learned what christ was teaching..


we could go on forever about making justifications about why we invaded iraq and other stuff....and arguing...but why bother....we clearly dont all have to agree...but we should stop killing each other over stupid stuff that can be worked out...lets set the example how to fix things not sell more weapons that destroy...look at the total budget and how much is wasted making bombs...no doubt is good for the economy as everyone wants to get one...will smith in Independence Day" I gotta have one of these" and we will sell them..so have a nice day, its been real.

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