Home Forums Explore Media Pastels Materials What happens if you use matting board that’s not acid free?

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  • #988357
    inmystudio
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        Everywhere I read about paintings I read about acid free paper, but what actually happens if your painting is stored next to paper that is not acid free?

        I have goggled this and can’t find an answer I bought some secondhand frames with matting but obviously I don’t know if it’s acid free.
        What will happen to my painting? will it fall apart in months, years or does the acid stain the edges?

        Thanks for any information.
        Deborah.

        Deborah
        :music: "You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note"....... Doug Floyd
        https://www.deborahmattsonart.com/

        #1131325
        Colorix
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            The forum Studio Tips and Framing have a couple of pro framers in them, they’re likely to know.

            My lousy memory has lodged “older than 30 years = acid mats”. It is a short-hand memory trick, but I think that up til then, awareness of the acidity wasn’t so great, but it changed then. The acid, or rather, lignin, migrates, so it can damage the artwork. Framers seal the rebate of a wooden frame, to avoid this, and I think one needs at least a couple of inches safety margin from the wood if it is unsealed. Same safety for a mat made out of wood pulp, I guess.

            You can easily see if an old mat or a backing board is degrading, as it gets very yellow/beige/brown and also brittle, looking much like a newspaper clipping that’s been left out in the light.

            Charlie

            Charlie

            Charlie's Site/Blog

            #1131321
            Deborah Secor
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                There is some discussion about the alkaline content of pastel, which might actually be more balanced by acidic conditions, but I think that’s a moot point. I don’t know enough to test it for myself, and don’t know who to trust for further information about it.

                An acid free mat board is very white at the core, not beige or warm white. If you look at the bevel you can see if it’s very white or not. (Though there are acid free black core mats, too.)

                I stored my paintings on foam core with newsprint taped over the top for years with no harm at all.

                I have paintings hanging on the wall in my house that do not have acid free mats. The mat core looks like there’s a smoker in the house (never so), as it’s turned a dingy yellowish gray color, but that’s only evidenced along the beveled edge. I’ve unframed paintings matted that way over 20 years ago and found that the pastel is fine, the paper I painted it on is fine, and there’s actually little evidence of having been matted this way, so you don’t need to worry.

                However, when you are able to choose acid free mats, I would. I believe the framing and art materials industry has fed a bit of hysteria on this issue, since they benefit from it, but you might as well use acid free materials when you can. They look nice and last longer. Just don’t get all freaked out about it.

                Deborah

                Deborah

                "All glory to Him, who alone is God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
                Landscape Painting in Pastels (free online book)
                Gouache Blog

                #1131335
                PeggyB
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                    Oh I beg to differ this time Deborah! As you know, I worked in a gallery that also did framing. I can’t recall the number of times we were asked to re-mat and frame a work on paper that had the paper acid burned by the mat and improper backing board. I do recall the last time I experienced this though. My neighbor has several Elton Bennett prints that she wanted reframed because she knew they weren’t under museum quality framing conditions. Every single one of them had acid burn. She did a research on the value of the pieces she has, and the damage to them markedly reduced their value.

                    Part of the problem is light on the whole “package” that I was told hastens the deterioration of paper. As Charlie indicated in her reply, 30plus years seems to begin the process, and 50 plus most certainly so. Off hand, I’d say you are nearing the age when those papers may begin to show damage. Especially so if the backing isn’t acid free.

                    Deborah (inmystudio) to answer your question, yes the acid in the mats will stain paper. Furthermore, the longer it remains on the work, the more likely it will not only stain where the mat touches the artwork, but it will begin to spead outward. You won’t know that unless you unframe the work and look at the back because the pastel will cover the stain. Eventually the paper becomes exceedingly brittle. This won’t happen in months, but rather many many years so whether or not you choose to buy museum quality mats and backing will depend upon how long you want to preserve the work. Way back when Elton Bennett was making his wonderful silk screened prints and selling them at $5 – $10 apiece in art fairs people didn’t realize that one day his work would be worth thousands of dollars so they just threw cheap framing on them. Who knows what your work may one day be worth…. in the meantime, do the best you can with the money you have available. If you are selling your work, take that into consideration. I don’t know about where you live, but in my area clients appreciate that effort and expect to pay for the quality framing.

                    Peggy

                    Peggy Braeutigam, IAPS/MC
                    www.peggybraeutigam.com

                    #1131322
                    Deborah Secor
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                        I wouldn’t argue with ya, Peggy. :)

                        Deborah

                        Deborah

                        "All glory to Him, who alone is God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord."
                        Landscape Painting in Pastels (free online book)
                        Gouache Blog

                        #1131329

                        This is definitely a case of “you get what you pay for”. It IS worth spending the $ on having artworks that deserve it matted and framed properly. I have spent years re-matting and framing family artworks and paintings and antique scrolls ( Japanese ) that my Great Granny brought back when she did her world tour with her husband as a newlywed and items that were passed down to her that are older. Some were just stored and not framed. Quite a few of these were original works and other collectables, and YES you can see the damage that was done in the framed ones from using mats that were not acid free. You could see the yellowed mat edges that looked like nicotine stain on the bevels. Non acid free mats also allow molds and mildews to proliferate! :eek: Fortunately I have access to a great restoration and conservation expert and he has saved valuable artwork and memorabilia so I can pass it on to the next generation all framed and matted, protected for future enjoyment.
                        Acid free and Museum glass is what I used on it all. One of the things to remember when using Museum glass is to NOT clean it with Windex, use only Larson-Juhl Glass Cleaner (no CFCs!!) or a like cleaner.

                        Drusilla
                        Blog: http://drusillasart.blogspot.com
                        http://1-drusilla-montemayor.artistwebsites.com/
                        Life is short, back AWAY from the computer, get off yer butt and go PAINT!:evil:

                        #1131334
                        inmystudio
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                            Thanks for the replies they give me a much better understanding.

                            Deborah
                            :music: "You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note"....... Doug Floyd
                            https://www.deborahmattsonart.com/

                            #1131323
                            robertsloan2
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                                I didn’t know that about the museum glass.

                                I’d read somewhere that if you have to use cheaper mats, you have to replace them every five years or if they start showing off color because they degrade. That probably is some help but would also be a pain and not much savings if you replaced with a cheap mat every time, the museum matting would not need replacement and pay for itself at the ten year mark.

                                I didn’t know you couldn’t clean museum glass with normal glass cleaners either, Drusilla. Thanks!

                                What about acrylic glazing? I would think a cheap frame would be better than no frame even if it’s not going to be as much light protection. I’ve been thinking of rotating the art that’s on my walls anyway so that it’s not all hanging all the time. I know museums do that too for conservation.

                                I can’t currently afford museum glass, but have everything I’ve bought from artists framed or stored in an archival box. I might be able to afford to upgrade the framing later on, though there’s also some logistic problems with my getting to a framer.


                                Robert A. Sloan, proud member of the Oil Pastel Society
                                Site owner, artist and writer of http://www.explore-oil-pastels-with-robert-sloan.com
                                blogs: Rob's Art Lessons and Rob's Daily Painting

                                #1131326
                                Colorix
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                                    Personally, as I’m still learning and developing, I use inexpensive frames with ordinary float glass, but all paper material is acid free, and I’ve tossed away the pastel sticks that are not lightfast. Seems like a good compromise to protect the work as much as is reasonable, until I’m rich and famous and can afford the very best.

                                    Judinging from comparing newspaper clips stuck to a wall and some that have been in dark deep drawers, it looks like a few years in darkness doesn’t change the acid paper much. I think we all have paperbacks in our bookshelves, where the block of pages look fine at the bottom, decent at the part that’s been turned inwards, and really awful at the top. The damage creeps slowly down the page over the years.

                                    But, every single vintage frame I’ve bought from the Sally Army and the like have had totally unusable mats and backings. Ordinary float glass doesn’t protect enough from UV light, and the paintings have been on walls, albeit rarely in direct sunlight. Often the bit under the rebate is in good-ish condition (when it is not *the* worst, being contaminated by the wood in the frame). Using and restoring vintage frames has definitely been an eye-opener to me. And only one of the artwork in some 30 frames was of a really good artist, a pastel! Can’t for the life of me decipher the signature. Which brings me to another important point: Sign legibly and fully on the back of the painting, especially if you only use your initials on the front, like I do. I even add instructions to framers on the back, and I know it works, as mother reframed one, and the new frame had a clear sticker on the back stating the framer had used only acid free materials. :-) (The fact that mommy dearest went with a bland frame that ‘killed’ the painting, instead of the enhancing colour scheme I’d used is another story…)

                                    And for us who are thrifty: I used the old brittle backing boards when I cut paper, (is it called cutting board/pad?). They last a few cuts, and only then do they go into the garbage.

                                    When I can, I’ll go for the hideously expensive museum quality glass. (Seems much more expensive here, and rarely used by framers. Only used by actual museums, for the several-million-dollar-masterworks.)

                                    Charlie

                                    Charlie

                                    Charlie's Site/Blog

                                    #1131324
                                    robertsloan2
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                                        I went for a metal frame eventually, looking at all the things about the different frames, for Orangerie and the sketch. Museum glass is expensive here too, and I think to get it online I’d have to order more than one piece. The pre-made frames I’m ordering next month are inexpensive but sturdy and come with acrylic glazing, which is less likely to break in transit.

                                        I think the framed paintings I’ve bought from artists have ordinary float glass like you’re describing. I know one of them does because we needed to replace the glass. The one good thing about my room for art conservation is that it gets no light — the room is in shade every hour of the day from what the angle of the sun is relative to the house.

                                        I will be using acid free archival matting and mounting within those frames and maybe later on I can think about replacing the glass in these frames with museum glass. I’m reaching a point where my walls are full anyway, I’ll have to either rotate my art, start hanging some of it in the hallway leading to my room or stop buying art soon.

                                        The hall might be a good option for some pieces because it gets even darker than my room, which has a window with indirect light. I might put some of my own pastels out there so I can have more space for the beautiful paintings I’ve got from other artists in here.


                                        Robert A. Sloan, proud member of the Oil Pastel Society
                                        Site owner, artist and writer of http://www.explore-oil-pastels-with-robert-sloan.com
                                        blogs: Rob's Art Lessons and Rob's Daily Painting

                                        #1131336
                                        PeggyB
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                                            .
                                            Acid free and Museum glass is what I used on it all. One of the things to remember when using Museum glass is to NOT clean it with Windex, use only Larson-Juhl Glass Cleaner (no CFCs!!) or a like cleaner.

                                            Great storyDrusilla. I have just one question. Are you certain you don’t mean you used archival mats instead of “acid free” mats? It wouldn’t make much sense to use musuem glass with just acid free mats. Acid free does not mean archival. Acid free is just that – some high percentage of being free of acid. Archival is 100% rag paper, pH neutral matboard – sometimes called museum quality matboard. You are absolutely right about the use of Windex on museum glass. :)

                                            Peggy

                                            Peggy Braeutigam, IAPS/MC
                                            www.peggybraeutigam.com

                                            #1131337
                                            PeggyB
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                                                I’d like to restate something I’ve said many times before in other forums.

                                                Acid free mat boards are not archival nor are they called “museum” matboards. However, acid free is better than the old “common” matboards. Simple acid-free matboards and backing are most often what artists can afford when first starting to market their work.

                                                Archival Matboards need not be described as “acid free”. Archival and Museum are two interchangeable words used for the very best matting available that will preserve your artwork as long as possible. I know some frameshops don’t train their employees well, and they are confusing the public by telling them the matboards are “acid-free” when in fact they are archival. The customer may not want archival matboards when they are framing an inexpensive print, but that’s what they are getting and what they pay for.

                                                If you have a question about what you are getting, look at the back of the matboard sample for the words “100% rag board” or “museum quality” or archival museum board or similar words. If only the words “acid-free” are present, it is not archival museum matboard.

                                                I don’t have a problem with anyone saying they use archival, museum quality matboards and backing materials when that is indeed what they use. Neither do I have a problem with anyone saying they use acid-free matboards and backing materials when that is what it really is. However, I do wish everyone could stop using “acid-free” and “archival” to describe museum quality products. Its a bit like calling professional quality pastels “chalk”, if you catch my drift. :)
                                                Peggy

                                                Peggy Braeutigam, IAPS/MC
                                                www.peggybraeutigam.com

                                                #1131320
                                                Artistammy
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                                                    As for museum glass, what are CFC’s? I’ve never heard of that kind of cleaner. What would you use in the USA? I’ve got a customer who used that glass…she wanted to know if she could use vinegar & water?
                                                    Thanks.

                                                    #1131338
                                                    PeggyB
                                                    Default

                                                        As for museum glass, what are CFC’s? I’ve never heard of that kind of cleaner. What would you use in the USA? I’ve got a customer who used that glass…she wanted to know if she could use vinegar & water?
                                                        Thanks.

                                                        Not sure what CFC stands for so won’t address that part of your question.

                                                        I did however look in my framing supply book to refresh my memory regarding museum glass. The brand I get is called Tru Vue Museum Glass, and I was surprised to read in the fine print that “no special cleaners are needed to clean this glass.” I know at the gallery we used Tru Vue’s all purpose glass cleaner because that is what we were told to use, and I continue to use that brand in my home frame shop.

                                                        I would think that if the glass was properly cleaned when the artwork was framed, the client wouldn’t need anything other than plain water (if they have really hard water they may want to use distilled water, but I’m not sure if that’s going a bit far). Since I don’t know the brand of museum glass that was used in this case, I’d either ask the framer how to care for it or use plain water, no vineager. This would only be necessary if the glass actually has something other than dust on it. A microfiber cloth without any liquid cleaner should be sufficient for getting dust off. If water is used, wipe it with a very soft cotton rag such as a men’s t-shirt to prevent scratching the glass. Do not use paper towels if you are concerned about scratching.

                                                        Peggy

                                                        Peggy Braeutigam, IAPS/MC
                                                        www.peggybraeutigam.com

                                                        #1131331
                                                        SonyaJ
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                                                            This has been a most interesting and informative thread! Thank you to everyone who has contributed. I haven’t matted anything in probably 10 years, other than a small piece I just recently did, so I honestly have no idea if the mats I used then are acid-free or not. I assumed they were, but who knows? :)

                                                            I have actually wondered about any issues about using non-archival grounds to paint on, and what long-term effects those would have on pastels. For other materials, like oils, acrylics and other wet media where the paint is adhered or becomes part of the canvas/ground, I can see that acids could be a potential problem by interacting with the vehicle of these paints. But, what about pastels? Unlike oils, which are forever continuing the oxidizing process, pastels seem inert, and they aren’t chemically bound to the surface of whatever they’re applied to. So, aside from lightfast issues with the pigments used, what will happen to a pastel painting done on a surface that can be presumed to be non-acid free. Will the lignin/acids leach through the pastel and stain it yellow like what happens to paper? Peggy – have you observed this as a framer?

                                                            I have seen artists selling work in galleries that were done on things like cardboard (and in a gallery here in town, wanting $250 for a small painting done on that surface!). There is a pastel artist here in town (Bisbee, AZ) who works exclusively on the same surface I use – hardware store sandpaper – and her paintings, which are fantastic, sell for $450. I didn’t ask her if she has concerns about longevity of her work for customers, but I’m guessing she doesn’t. If I’m ever lucky enough to have my pastels sell for that much, I’ll gladly spring for the spendy museum-grade grounds.

                                                            For myself, I like sandpaper because it’s cheap and locally available, and is great for practice, so I have no qualms about tossing work done on it. I can get a pack of five 9×11″ sheets of wet-dry 400-grit paper, which is my favorite, for a few dollars. A 10-pack of 9×12 Wallis (which I bought about 10 years ago) was over $20, and I spent almost $30 on a 10-pack of Art Spectrum Colourfix paper a few weeks ago. I guess I’m afraid to use it because I don’t want to waste it :lol: . I know Wallis can be recycled, and the one piece I used for a painting last year is already in that pile…I decided to try it after having not used pastels for almost 10 years and having only used Canson and Strathmore pastel papers previously . It does have a bit of a learning curve associated with its use, I found :wink2: . The sandpaper has been wonderful in helping get used to working on a textured ground. And, it’s durable as anything – even the non-wet-dry 320-grit garnet paper I also use can take an alcohol wash effortlessly.

                                                            Anyway, that was a bit long-winded about my question about painting surfaces…:o

                                                            I also noticed a product available on Dick Blick’s site or somewhere, that is a spray that claims to neutralize acids in paper. Does anyone know anything about that? I see the term “lignin” mentioned, which I assume is found in wood pulp and is the chemical culprit in most acid-containing papers/mats – would a spray like this change its chemical structure, I wonder? Or bind with the acid part(s) of the molecule?

                                                            Thanks! :wave:

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