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Old 01-04-2001, 10:46 PM
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Except for the grading I like the ideas here.
Like llis said though... spaces for acknowledging the good points are just as necessary as pointing out the needs for improvement.
The idea of this becoming anything like a juried show give me shudders.. JMHO
Carol

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Old 01-04-2001, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lseiler:
Like it or not....artist's works being judged on a professional level happens all the time. From gaining acceptance into a gallery or show, to being finalists in a major competition. Call it, "cutting the grade"



Larry,
I love ya, but come back to earth...this site is geared towards the beginning and intermediate artist. The professionals know the ropes already, we don't need to grade them.

And why in the world would we want to grade a beginner? For our own egos? To say look how much better we are? NO THANKS!



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Old 01-04-2001, 11:20 PM
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Okay, let's forget about the grading idea - we can revist that in phase 2. It sounds like the consensus is to make it an "opt-in" type of thing - which should be a good middle-of-the-road for everyone.

Let's focus on the critique criteria itself. Remember, the commentor will be able to provide freetext as well, but in order to help categorize things, we do need to come up with our general standard for criteria.

Anyone want to volunteer to come up with a draft to present to the group? That's the best way, IMO.

Cheers.
Scott

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Old 01-04-2001, 11:25 PM
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Scott,
When will the new critiques system be ready? I can`t wait to try it out!

Thanks again Scott
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Old 01-04-2001, 11:33 PM
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Theoretically, a working draft of the critique system should be ready in a few weeks...

Cheers.
Scott

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Old 01-04-2001, 11:43 PM
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Okay, question now at this point, will the same criteria be used for the "good" as well as the "needs improvement" catagories? Something of a format of:

Criteria Good Needs Improvment Comments

Does that make sense? Like a checklist format, having the comments section off to the side? Is that the idea that we have working? Or even do away with the good/needs improvment catagories, and reserve all comments for the comment section? Have a list of criteria, then next to it the comment section. Of course we would have to include an Other under the criteria section!

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[This message has been edited by Ivyleaf (edited January 04, 2001).]
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Old 01-04-2001, 11:59 PM
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I don't like the concept of grading per se' but I've myself on occassion have wished that someone could give me a professional critique. Even so, this topic has come up before and as I've replied before. If someone was to want a professional opinion of their art I'm sure that they would also want to know that the person doing it was qualified enough to do it. Likewise, I myself not being a professional would hate to give a non-professional opinion on the art of a professional. Does that make sense?
So if this is done I agree with the options above, that it should be optional and separate from the regular critique forum.
Actually, is it not this way already? You may or may not get picked for the professional critique but isn't that opportunity already there on the critique upload page. Who is the critiquer on that page anyway? Will that page still be there, come to think of it? Sorry, I'm not currently looking at it so I forget.

The rest of the forum plans and suggestions sound good.

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Old 01-05-2001, 05:27 AM
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Thats right Tammy you can submit your painting to the critique center and Johannes will give you a professional critique,
Rod

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Old 01-05-2001, 08:38 AM
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Scott,

I like the pre-determined checklist idea providing there is an 'objective' and consistent standard.

Another area that might be addressed is the intent of the artist. I don't want to sound like the Florida vote counters but a clear statement of sorts may be useful to help guide the commentator towards an opinion. Although a particular work may be its own reference point, there is room, perhaps for an explanation for intent. I, for one, can rarely produce what my mental image wants me to. You know..."What I'm trying to do here is...." If so stated then a commentator would have a point of reference in order to say "The balance of light-to-dark needs......" and so on.

Overall I think your idea is a good one and the suggestions sound.

'Coz don't forget;

YOU DA MAN!
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Old 01-05-2001, 09:18 AM
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I'm probably the last person who should try to suggest a critique format thing...but...
If you have a check box for each area, i.e. color _ Suggestions/comments

composition _ Suggestions/comments

subject matter_ Suggestions/comments

Overall impact_ Suggestions/comments -
(and so on) -
instead of a heading first that says
"improvement needed" - the commentator can be more diplomatic in his/her approach. If the composition is fine, no suggestion is needed - and you can comment on why you like it..or visa versa.
All this in a separate place so the artist can opt to get critique or just show the work without inviting comments etc. I think Arlene was suggesting something like this already.
MHO..for what its worth..... Carol




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Old 01-05-2001, 09:35 AM
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LarrySeiler LarrySeiler is offline
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Larry: I like having finished works judged if the artist so desires, but I do not think that judging art in progress is a good thing.

Oh....I'm not in disagreement llis, folks... just talkin' out loud. Brainstorming works when it brings off the wall ideas to meet sound ones, and some clever reader reading both gets a totally different/better idea! So...I'm just adding stuff to help mold stuff.

I am going to stick with my guns though and among the few that can handle the disclosure declare that it was seeing how my work compared to others that gave me new goals and gumption to dedicate myself to changes necessary to see my work up there. I would say my consistency in ended up a finalist speaks clear enough that something happened. Y'all can just blame it on me being a pretty talented fella though!

Let's consider the possibility that one day Wetcanvas will have such outreach and attractiveness to invite many many more professional and master artists as well. Artists driven to improve, having put their fragile egos on the shelf long ago. (note- it was wanting to improve more than be pandered that I did such). Just somewhere in the back of your minds...imagine the possibility of an artist being able to add an image to the selective process without having their name become known to all. Such promises an honest appraisal.

It requires a great deal of time to give another a good and broken down critique, so as is..most receive short pert sound bytes. I see a number put works up to be encouraged and stroked, but such would probably not put their works (name unknown) out there to see where it stands.

Again...remember what I learned was an impacting of the viewer exists. These judges I should also add are different each and every year. That an artist develops consistency with different judges regardless says that he/she is on to something.

Again, my thoughts are just ramblings that hopefully contribute if anything else to what is not wanted! Knowing what you don't want is helpful. I know...for learning what I don't want in a painting has been instrumental as well! hee hee hee....!! Peace all.....

Larry

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Old 01-05-2001, 10:45 AM
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IvyLeaf - yes, the same list will be used for both strengths and suggested areas of improvement. For consistency's sake. Of course, we still need to determine what that list will be. *cough* volunteers *cough* Seriously, is there anyone out there who wants to volunteer to take a first cut and present to the group? Then refine it with everyone's input?

berkking - the original poster (artist) wil have plenty of room to explain the piece in their own words - of course, just as always, we have to rely on each individual commentor to take everything into account.

Cheers.
Scott

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Old 01-05-2001, 11:34 AM
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arlene arlene is offline
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Scott,
another thought...

one of the problems i have when critiquing is, I'll rework a piece in paintshop, then go to the reply and upload the picture and add my 2 cents about why I did what I did.

Problem is, half the time, I don't remember everything I did until I see it again. Then it means going into edit 2 or sometimes 3 times.

Is there a way to upload the picture then have a space AFTER THE PICTURE IS UPLOADED AND CAN BE SEEN, to offer your written suggestions, based on the corrected picture?

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Old 01-05-2001, 11:55 AM
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LarrySeiler LarrySeiler is offline
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Larry,
I love ya, but come back to earth...this site is geared towards the beginning and intermediate
artist. The professionals know the ropes already, we don't need to grade them.

And why in the world would we want to grade a beginner? For our own egos? To say look how
much better we are? NO THANKS!


Greetings...earthlings, this is Lar checking in. Huston? Huston?

Oh..um, er...well just to clarify, I did dispell notions of grading. I'm not advocating grading, didn't advocate grading, and explain fairly well why it is difficult to do.

As for only professionals needing such...I was not a professional when first entering such competitions. In fact, it was a rude awakening. I put about 80 hours of work into my first piece...and thought I would razzle and dazzle the world...believing my talents would amaze the judges. When I attended the event of about 200 entrees, I wanted to grab my piece off the table and crawl out the door! Ooohh...how embarrassing.

However, determining not to be embarrassed again, and having gotten a full transparent revelation of where my work stood, the dose of humility sent me back to my studio clear headed, humbled and very teachable.

It is precisely the fact that I know people here are beginners and intermediates that I related to what propelled, motivated, and brought my skills to higher and higher levels.

Also...note I advocate this to be an option (remember artists love options), to submit work anonymously such that no fingers are pointing back to them- risking public humility. Also, in light of the gracious nature the vast majority here at Wetcanvas have, I doubt anything to dread is likely to materialize.

Beginners and intermediates enter competitions all the time. Professionals become those that in time place and win. So...I'll sit well with the fact that my idea ?%+!&% in the mind of others, but if one were to ask what helped me as a beginner and intermediate develop I'll have to tell the same lame story of seeing my works stack up in light of other's works. Don't care if my idea falls flat, just want to make sure folks are clear on what I advocate or not. I agree, grading.. bad! Very bad. Bad grading...naughty. Bad!

Okay...Huston...I think my signal is breaking up. "Ground control to Major Tom....."

Peace,

Larry

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[This message has been edited by lseiler (edited January 05, 2001).]
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Old 01-05-2001, 12:19 PM
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Ivyleaf Ivyleaf is offline
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Well, I don't know much about critiquing art, but I used to critique speeches for a living, I will start compiling the list since no one else seems to be jumping in at the moment . I'll come up with a list and we can go from there. You can post requests for the list here or you can send them via email to me.

Scott, when do you need this by?

Hey, will this count for a "project????"

Here is a quick list to start with:
brushwork
center of interest
color
composition
draughtmanship/rendering
emotion
eye appeal
freshness
harmony
impact
lighting
movement
originality
perspective
shadows
spontenaity
technique
temperature
texture
tone
unity
use of negative space
use of positive space
value

At least, it's a starting point

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[This message has been edited by Ivyleaf (edited January 05, 2001).]
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