WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > The Learning Center > Composition and Design
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-24-2015, 11:51 AM
dayakar's Avatar
dayakar dayakar is offline
Veteran Member
Hyderabad
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 879
 
Hails from India
To all my artist friends

To all artist friends,
Almost I have come close to stop doing painting after 45 years working on it, excluding on and off breaks. Now I am sixty four years old. I want to share some of these things with you, because of the love you showed me all these years.
At the age of twenty, I started to draw. I lived in a village near to a town. You would not get even proper pencils or papers, forget about material like pastels, oil tubes, brushes etc. it would be a day dream if you think of getting art books. No proper art schools. Teachers.
I started my learning from that stage. When I was in my twenties, my parents lost everything whatever we had. I discontinued my education. With newly acquired drawing and little bit painting skills, my life started from that point.


I crossed many steps after that. I learned English Language to read art books. Whatever I earned through my work, whatever I had after spending for my family needs, with that remaining money I bought art books. I didn't buy any lands or houses. I didn't have any savings in my bank account.( even today).
I studied language of art. I am able to say with confidence that I have understood it properly., which is not an easy task. As a writer I studied many subjects to write fiction. What I have understood is among all the subjects, understanding art is the most difficult thing.
I say with pride … '' Yes. I have understood it. ''
Not a small task. Big achievement.


After achieving this much success, I didn't get the deserved market sales for my work. So I have not been earning the money what I require to survive. I have understood finally, it is not easy to sell art on its own merit. It requires patronage. It requires marketing. But an artist who has been struggling to understand the true nature of art, who is struggling everyday to make both ends meet … How that person would be able to manage patrons and market? If he concentrates on them how can he master his work?
Then, he has to compromise with one of them. I didn't compromise with learning art.
Results … No financial back up at this age. The people who are connected with me by relation or familiarity or professional contacts look at me today with careless attitude. To them Money is important. I didn't earn it. So finally it touched my heart.
Now I have come to a decision. Do not work paintings for clients. No need to chase galleries. Ignore them. Write books on art. Share your knowledge with students, upcoming artists and artists. I am feeling this way, I will be alive.


Till death I want to live as an artist and as a writer, but with dignity. Dignity will come to any artist by not depending on anybody for his needs.
That's the life I want in the last phase of my life. For that I will struggle from now on. This I wanted to share with all of you.


Here is an an excerpt from my recent book ' Everyday Experiences of a Struggling Artist.' which is available at Amazon. here I am giving a link for that.
http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Exper...agunta+dayakar

It would be too late
He is an artist. He does paintings regularly. To him it's passion. For livelihood, he used to paint sign boards for shops and offices. He is living with some happiness, because he is getting some money for his day to day needs from sign boards and he is doing paintings which he likes very much.
One day someone told him that if he exhibits his paintings in some gallery, he will get some name, then he could sell his paintings to wealthy clients. He would be able earn some good money that way.
He felt it was a good idea.
So he prepared thirty paintings for the exhibition and framed them. It costed him a lot. He didn't have that much money. So he borrowed the money at interest.
After that he approached the galleries which have some name.
Every gallery rejected him. They said they exhibit only artists who have fine art degrees and awards.
This artist didn't have any of them. He didn't study in college. He is self taught. He went to many galleries. His attempts became fruitless.
Finally one gallery accepted his show, with one condition, that he has to pay the rent. He accepted without thinking because he was so excited about exhibiting his works. He thought that he could sell few paintings in his show, with that money he would pay the rent. He spent some money on invitations and snacks for inaugural day. He borrowed money for that also.
Finally the day arrived.
Invitees came. Some newspapers, one or two TV channel reporters also attended. Everybody praised his talent and the uniqueness of his work. Next day, one or two newspapers and channels published and telecast his work.
He was on cloud nine.
The exhibition was over after five days.
Nobody bought his paintings, not even a single one.
To take the paintings out of the gallery he had to pay the rent, but had no money to clear it.
Gallery owner told him curtly that he could take out his paintings only after paying the rent.
He didn't know what to do. After few hours, he came to the realisation, that he has to borrow some more money to pay the rent to the gallery.
He borrowed money and took his paintings home.
After few days, he came out of that shock, then slowly started to think …

‘He paid money for invitations.'
‘He paid for snacks. '
‘He paid for canvas boards and colors. '
‘He paid for frames and he paid gallery rent also.'

At the end everybody got their money except him! Is this the actual reality? If it is … why other artists are not speaking about it? Why they didn't warn new entrants like him? Why there's not much talk about artist's struggle for survival? That too for minimum basic needs?

Tail piece: Yes. There is so much talk in the history about artists' struggle for survival. But the problem is, history is talking only about great masters. That means they are successful people to us. Even though they felt pain, starvation, ill health in their life time, in the end they became successful, some maybe after their death. But to an art student who enters into art field, it looks glamorous. Because he is reading about world's greatest artists.
To an art student, starvation is not a big deal, to attain that status. But after a few years, he would realise that starvation is not a glamorous thing. This world has only a few great masters.
By the time the artist realises this truth, it would be too late for him ...
__________________
My blog: http://maguntadayakar.blogspot.in/
Reply With Quote
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-27-2015, 06:18 PM
La_'s Avatar
La_ La_ is offline
A WC! Legend
Alberta, where coyotes look both ways before crossing the highway
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,607
 
Hails from Canada
Re: To all my artist friends

yes, this is common - all over the world

the title "starving artist" is based on truth

because creating art is sometimes more important than anything else

every artist i know has another job, a 'real' job with a guaranteed income (or a spouse/partner with a regular job)

very few, very very few actually become true 'professional' artists who can comfortably live on their art income alone.

it has always been this way and will likely always be this way.

la
__________________
_____________________________________________
Pacis, der Frieden, Mir, Shanti, Friour, Paz, Pace, Kapayapaan, Fred, Piersica, Taika, Aman, Beke, Miers, Shalom, Salam السلام, Heping, Mir (Мир),Paix,Ειρήνη,Udo
http://yourstrulyart.blogspot.ca Peace - When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know Peace
Latin, German, Serbian, Bengali, Icelandic, Brazilian, Italian, Filipino, Swedish, Romanian, Lithuanian, Hindi/Urdu, Hungarian, Latvian, Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, Russian, French,Greek,Igbo(Nigeria)
Reply With Quote
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-27-2015, 10:20 PM
Artyczar Artyczar is offline
A Local Legend
Joshua Tree, California
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,262
 
Hails from United States
Re: To all my artist friends

Being an artist is not easy. So many people that aren't in the arts have a misconstrued idea about what we do all day and what our lives are like. If we are really doing this, and I mean really doing it and depending solely on our work to make ends meet, life is more than likely a major struggle -- unless you have a partner to help out or you have had great success with it. Very few of us have had "great" success.

I consider myself lucky in that I have had some success, but it's taken about 25 years of absolute struggle and dedication. And when I say some "success," I don't mean I am rolling in the dough. I still do not own my own home. I have no savings and have to plan for the future for when I am older. I will fly by the seat of my pants like I always have. I am lucky that I can pay my way through life easier than I used to be able to, and that to me is success, but I also measure success differently now than I used to. It's not monetary. It's more about the work and my happiness.

I think writing is a GREAT idea. I have been doing this and I think writing what you know is a great way to accompany your art and make it just as important, like a craft. It is important to put out there what you know to other artists. I fully agree with this. And I also agree with La that the starving artists situation will likely always be, but it is a path cut out for certain types that can handle it. Well, sometimes they can't handle it and there are sad endings to those stories, but like La also just said, creating art is sometimes more important than anything else.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-02-2015, 11:39 PM
La_'s Avatar
La_ La_ is offline
A WC! Legend
Alberta, where coyotes look both ways before crossing the highway
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,607
 
Hails from Canada
Re: To all my artist friends

it's interesting to me how little attention is/can be spent on composition, when learning to paint. the skeleton of the piece, the bones and structure of the work should be focused on the most ... a bad comp can/does wreck a perfectly painted pansy piece, but a great comp let's anything (almost) shine like a freshly groomed stallion !

la
__________________
_____________________________________________
Pacis, der Frieden, Mir, Shanti, Friour, Paz, Pace, Kapayapaan, Fred, Piersica, Taika, Aman, Beke, Miers, Shalom, Salam السلام, Heping, Mir (Мир),Paix,Ειρήνη,Udo
http://yourstrulyart.blogspot.ca Peace - When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know Peace
Latin, German, Serbian, Bengali, Icelandic, Brazilian, Italian, Filipino, Swedish, Romanian, Lithuanian, Hindi/Urdu, Hungarian, Latvian, Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, Russian, French,Greek,Igbo(Nigeria)
Reply With Quote
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-04-2015, 11:22 AM
claude j greengrass's Avatar
claude j greengrass claude j greengrass is online now
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,472
 
Re: To all my artist friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by La_
it's interesting to me how little attention is/can be spent on composition, when learning to paint. the skeleton of the piece, the bones and structure of the work should be focused on the most ... a bad comp can/does wreck a perfectly painted pansy piece, but a great comp let's anything (almost) shine like a freshly groomed stallion !

la
I couldn't agree more, but you are speaking a foreign language to perhaps 99% of today's painters. Evidence of this? The sparsity of posts in this forum, the lack of threads and active discussions about composition in other painting forums, and the lack of books on design and composition.
__________________
It is only on a basis of knowledge that we can become free to compose naturally. -- Bernard Dunstan
blog.jlk.net
Reply With Quote
  #6   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-08-2015, 11:22 PM
wesley a lowe wesley a lowe is offline
Senior Member
british columbia, canada
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 107
 
Hails from Canada
Re: To all my artist friends

Here are the names of some very good books on Composition and on many other very important things that all artist should understand.

"Alla Prima 11" by Richard Schmid. "Colour and Light" by James Gurney.
"Imaginative Realism" James Gurney. "Mastering Composition"by Ian Roberts.

I have met many individuals who refer to themselves as artist and who understand very little about Composition or many topics covered in these books. Why?
Reply With Quote
  #7   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-09-2015, 10:34 AM
claude j greengrass's Avatar
claude j greengrass claude j greengrass is online now
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,472
 
Re: To all my artist friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by wesley a lowe
...I have met many individuals who refer to themselves as artist and who understand very little about Composition or many topics covered in these books. Why?

IMOSHO, Visual Composition is seldom taught and it is considered too difficult a subject by many 'artists'. Then again, there is the "no rules" school of thought regarding Visual Composition. This school is closely aligned with the "rule will interfere with my creativity" school of thought. YMMV

BTW, Ian Robert's book is probably one of the better starting points for a study of Visual Composition.
__________________
It is only on a basis of knowledge that we can become free to compose naturally. -- Bernard Dunstan
blog.jlk.net
Reply With Quote
  #8   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-14-2015, 08:10 PM
lpylmqlp lpylmqlp is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 41
 
Hails from Spain
Re: To all my artist friends

"... I didn't get the deserved market sales for my work..."

Speaking strictly for me, I am very happy that I understood very quickly that the sales I get are the sales I deserve. All factors accounted for.

I agree, your story may be a sad story but so are the stories of many many aspiring artists, writers or football players... anyone wanting to make a living on activities where only the very best make it.

By the way, sad stories are good sellers from time to time, in novels or plays, but with books about making art, in my humble, and my own, opinion, people tend to prefer books from successful artists. It looks like we believe that we could learn something from people that made it, and if we were perhaps less interested in learning what not to do.

Anyway, I wish you the best with your book. By now you seem to have learned, and decide to advertise it here.

Regarding composition, I got lost about how this got into this thread, but anyway, I am quite convinced that it cannot be taught. This could be the reason why there are so few books about it. There are some, many, rules, but for any one of these rules there are examples of good paintings breaking that rule. It cannot be taught but it can be learned: draw. Drawing one earns a sense, very personal, of harmony. By drawing and drawing, one knows that a new line is needed there, or a patch there needs to change shape. A daunting task, trying to teach that.

Regards.
__________________
Antonio
http://agg-pintura.blogspot.com 10 essential skills (Sorry, only in Spanish)

Last edited by lpylmqlp : 02-14-2015 at 08:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-14-2015, 10:47 PM
claude j greengrass's Avatar
claude j greengrass claude j greengrass is online now
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,472
 
Re: To all my artist friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpylmqlp
...Regarding composition, I got lost about how this got into this thread, but anyway, I am quite convinced that it cannot be taught. This could be the reason why there are so few books about it. There are some, many, rules, but for any one of these rules there are examples of good paintings breaking that rule. It cannot be taught but it can be learned: draw. Drawing one earns a sense, very personal, of harmony. By drawing and drawing, one knows that a new line is needed there, or a patch there needs to change shape. A daunting task, trying to teach that.

Regards.

I'm a bit lost at to why dayakar post it tale of woe to Composition. I wouldn't worry about it too much. He tends to periodically post self-promotion threads and has aroused heated exchanged in the past. Best to just ignore it.

With regards to composition, I'm sure you can find exceptions to any and all composition LRPGI, laws, rules, principles, guidelines, ideas, that I might sensible suggest. I don't contest this. I do have difficulty understanding how composition can be learned but cannot be taught. Have you ever read Ian Roberts' book, “Mastering Composition”? I'm certain that 'Picture Plane' framework Ian describes can be utilised to compose a well designed painting.

He book is the best I've found so far on Visual Composition but on reviewing Whitney, Brandt, Webb, Wade, Couch and others artist-authors, I could see they were saying much the same thing, but with neither the clarity nor as concisely as Ian Roberts. YMMV
__________________
It is only on a basis of knowledge that we can become free to compose naturally. -- Bernard Dunstan
blog.jlk.net
Reply With Quote
  #10   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-15-2015, 05:35 PM
lpylmqlp lpylmqlp is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 41
 
Hails from Spain
Re: To all my artist friends

Hello,

Thank you. I tried to reproach his advertising in the less offensive way I could. Now, with your information, I am glad La_ redressed the thread.

I have Ian Robert's book and many of the others mentioned in this thread. And I am thankful for your pointers to some others that I did not know.

I agree with you, most masters tell you the same rules or give you similar advice, and these rules and advice really are useful. And those can be taught. What I intended to express is that all those great authors, including my favourite on the subject: Carl Purcell, sooner or later have to resort to "pleasing arrangement", "interesting shapes" or "expressive balance". These pleasing, interesting, expressive, appealing, or whatever, is what I find impossible to teach. How could a student follow the lesson and make a pleasing arrangement? But it is possible for that student to fine tune her sensitivity via her making marks on a surface once and again.

I hope I explained myself better this time. My English is not the good I would like.

Regards.
__________________
Antonio
http://agg-pintura.blogspot.com 10 essential skills (Sorry, only in Spanish)
Reply With Quote
  #11   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-16-2015, 06:01 PM
claude j greengrass's Avatar
claude j greengrass claude j greengrass is online now
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,472
 
Re: To all my artist friends

Antonio

Yes, I agree that: "pleasing arrangement, interesting shapes or expressive balance ...” are the most difficult areas of Visual Composition. The artist-authors and the online sources I have access to, make only limited references to these subjects. I would add a couple of additional subjects: division of space, tonal balance, visual hierarchy, and perhaps abstract armatures. Then there is the editing process: simplification and what to leave out.

I have been attempting to note down the key features of composition I am familiar with in an orderly manner. So far I have about 70 or so files with a few duplicates, that contain anything from a paragraph to 20 or more pages of cut and paste notes and require extensive editing. It’s a task I periodically pick up and set down after a few days, but I am now inspired to tackle your ‘difficult subjects’ and re-review all my composition and painting books for the small jewels the authors have provided.

thanks
Jim
__________________
It is only on a basis of knowledge that we can become free to compose naturally. -- Bernard Dunstan
blog.jlk.net
Reply With Quote
  #12   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-17-2015, 11:32 PM
La_'s Avatar
La_ La_ is offline
A WC! Legend
Alberta, where coyotes look both ways before crossing the highway
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,607
 
Hails from Canada
Re: To all my artist friends

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpylmqlp
It cannot be taught but it can be learned: draw.

anything can be taught to those interested in learning
nothing can be taught to those who don't want to learn

composition has standard, tried and true recipes, like soup
bland soup or mouth watering soup, that's up to the chef and the taste buds of the public ... and of course the kid on the street with the flyers, pushing people in the door to come try some soup.

i'm in the process of attempting to copy one of dayakars recently posted images, my original thought was pfft, basic landscape, some high contrasts, simple - ha! not so much, i'm finding it quite challenging to capture the complex levels involved, but yes it can be taught, because i want to learn and this 'simple' landscape is showing me, teaching me complex perspective.

la
__________________
_____________________________________________
Pacis, der Frieden, Mir, Shanti, Friour, Paz, Pace, Kapayapaan, Fred, Piersica, Taika, Aman, Beke, Miers, Shalom, Salam السلام, Heping, Mir (Мир),Paix,Ειρήνη,Udo
http://yourstrulyart.blogspot.ca Peace - When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know Peace
Latin, German, Serbian, Bengali, Icelandic, Brazilian, Italian, Filipino, Swedish, Romanian, Lithuanian, Hindi/Urdu, Hungarian, Latvian, Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, Russian, French,Greek,Igbo(Nigeria)
Reply With Quote
  #13   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-18-2015, 01:13 PM
dayakar's Avatar
dayakar dayakar is offline
Veteran Member
Hyderabad
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 879
 
Hails from India
Re: To all my artist friends

Dear La , ( L.d.Ansell)

Thanks for your understanding and appreciation for my work. I have been studying composition since 20 years, especially in the last 10 years I intensified my study. In that process I have collected many books on that subject, more or less 50 books. I have almost every book with me which is available for sale. I studied all of them. Yes, more or less every artist/author is saying the same thing about composition, because elements and principles are the same.
Maybe some gaps between what they have understood, what they expressed. It's quite natural, difference between what a person understood and how he expresses his understanding to others. Only a few masters/teachers are able to communicate to the students what they understood.
Learning from the masters and trying to understand what they meant, putting it into practice, learning from failures and successful approaches, one would be able to grasp the basic essence of composition.
This process should be continued as long as artist works. In this journey, artist develops intuition. This intuition is not a gift. It is the gift of hard work and continuous learning. For a learner, today will be better than yesterday.


' anything can be taught to those interested in learning ' This is what you said.


What you said is right. This is what i have been doing throughout my life. This is what I am continuing to do. Whenever I get depressed with my personal problems, whenever I want to get away from my painting, in that moment, people like you with your appreciation and support, inspire me to rethink.
I am also a human being like others, whenever I lose the strength to survive, then some one supports me, appreciate me for my skills, I get inspiration and courage to fight back one way or other. It's quite natural. That's the way human beings survive. That's the way society has evolved from stone age to space age.

I am planning to write a series of books on Composition. I will not be writing much about theories. Working 2 or 3 paintings in every book, and showing them through compositional approaches, what should be done and what should not be done. Then a learner will be able to grasp the things more easily. More or less it's teaching the essence of the composition. Once the student understands the essence, then there won't be any confusion in him. He will start to learn from that point. There won't be any turning back for him after that. As long as the student won't understand the essence of the composition, he will always be in confusion, however many number of books he reads.

I am trying to help the students and practising artists in this regard. Yes. I am not a master. I know it. In fact there are no masters at present or in past or will be in the future. All those masters of the past lived their life as learners until their last breath. We call those learners as masters with respect. I will also remain as a learner. There's a lot of joy to be a learner. Whatever I am learning I will share with others. Every small bit of new knowledge, even if it comes from an amateur, will help us to grow.

Once again my heartfelt thanks for your appreciation La.
__________________
My blog: http://maguntadayakar.blogspot.in/
Reply With Quote
  #14   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-18-2015, 01:48 PM
La_'s Avatar
La_ La_ is offline
A WC! Legend
Alberta, where coyotes look both ways before crossing the highway
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,607
 
Hails from Canada
Re: To all my artist friends

no problem
as artists, we're kind of all in this together
we're all on a journey

la
__________________
_____________________________________________
Pacis, der Frieden, Mir, Shanti, Friour, Paz, Pace, Kapayapaan, Fred, Piersica, Taika, Aman, Beke, Miers, Shalom, Salam السلام, Heping, Mir (Мир),Paix,Ειρήνη,Udo
http://yourstrulyart.blogspot.ca Peace - When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know Peace
Latin, German, Serbian, Bengali, Icelandic, Brazilian, Italian, Filipino, Swedish, Romanian, Lithuanian, Hindi/Urdu, Hungarian, Latvian, Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, Russian, French,Greek,Igbo(Nigeria)
Reply With Quote
  #15   Report Bad Post  
Old 02-18-2015, 03:55 PM
DaveCrow DaveCrow is offline
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,158
 
Re: To all my artist friends

I still have much to learn and master about composition. I do find though that both in the studio and in the field paintings that I begin by thinking about the composition are stronger and more succesful than those where composition is not the foundation.

There is always something more to learn and I am always grateful to those who take the time and effort to teach and share what they have learned.
__________________
"Let the paint be paint" --John Marin
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:27 PM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.