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Old 04-14-2019, 05:18 PM
ntl ntl is offline
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Question Analogous colors for manganese blue

Manganese is transparent. Would the other colors be transparents, too?
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:05 PM
ntl ntl is offline
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Maybe my question isn't clear. The title of the thread asks for the colors analogous to manganese blue. Ultramarine and thalo? cobalt?
My manganese is the real thing, not a hue.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:39 AM
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Well, generally all Blues are analogous to each other, some closer to Manganese than others. I have some Old Holland Manganese Blue, and it doesn't appear to be transparent, at all. But, then I don't consider transparency to be much of a factor, except for creating deep, chromatic darks, for which transparency is often helpful.
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Last edited by WFMartin : 04-15-2019 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 04-15-2019, 03:07 AM
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Agree - all blues can be considered analogous to one another. So...are you looking for transparent blues on either side of Manganese Blue...maybe for a split-primary setup?

BTW, Manganese Blue is an awesome color if you like the bright cyan of Phthalo Blue but want something much less overpowering and easier to use, and don't need the full value range (darks).
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:20 AM
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Pinguino Pinguino is offline
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Analogous?

Presumably you mean in terms of hue, value, chroma, and transparency/opacity?

It's my understanding that Phthalo Blue (Green Shade), when "stretched" with a low-opacity white, is about as close as you can get. Adding the blue to ordinary white, or even Zinc white, won't do it.

A couple of manufacturers (including Gamblin) make a "hue" color that appears to be PB/GS stretched with some nearly-transparent lightener. I've tried this particular paint, and it performs as expected, BUT its tinting strength is very low. Might as well simply use PB/GS mixed with TZ white (if opaque is desired), or use PB/GS as a glaze (if transparent is desired). Mixing complement is Venetian Red (if opaque) or W&N Transparent Red Ochre (if transparent).
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:08 PM
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Blank Fixe +Phthalo blue in linseed oil binder
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:01 AM
ntl ntl is offline
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

First, I want to thank you all for your responses. Second, at first I didn't/don't know how to respond--I haven't gone this deeply beyond, basically, the basic colors, then life happened. In that time, in trying to understand what it is I DO mean, so I can get information that I can use now, I did some searching and got an idea of how much I do not know. And maybe it's not necessary for me to know some of it as an artist. Is it?


By analogous, I mean what I learned here: Analogous colors are groups of three colors that are next to each other on the color wheel.
Bill, You talk about color space. That's what I'm asking about. On the color wheels I've found, manganese is not shown. It's my understanding manganese is close to cerulean blue in hue. Is that correct?

So if manganese is close to cerulean blue in hue, then Indigo and Prussian, being more distant, are not analogous, but Arctic Blue and cornflower blue are:
Arctic blue, hue 187.5° Cerulean, hue 195° Cornflower blue, hue 202.5°
I don't have those.
Cyan,(semi Transparent) hue 180°, and Cobalt blue,(semi Transparent) hue 217.5° are the closest I have.


Patrick, I'm not sure. Yes, I think I want transparent on either side, but I do not know if that is needed. Is it possible in artist oil paint? Then I think of all the painters from a hundred and more years ago who didn't have the variety that I have now to work with... I like the "...much less overpowering and easier to use" aspect.

Now I'm more confused. From what I read previously, manganese is close to cerulean. When I read Artist Creation, phthalo blue, 15:4 has as a common name, cerulean blue. And continuing, Manganese is PB33.
Cerulean is PB 35. Some of it's common names are Cerulean Blue Genuine,
various cobalt names, and Manganese Blue Nova?.
No, I don't need, in this instance, darks. (Though what I be able to do is glaze more layers of the manganese to achieve any darker that I want.)

Pinguino, I do have PG/gs, a small tube of it. Thanks for the info on the mixing complements. I have venetian red, but not the ochre. Doyou know what the visual compliments are?

Gigalot, thanks for your response. I'm still working on this. I had in mind to do an 8x10 study first, I have a smaller canvas ready, maybe I'll start with it instead.


Oh, boy, there's a lot to learn (and remember!) Again, thinking of the master painters, am I over thinking all this?
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Old 04-20-2019, 11:57 AM
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

ntl,

I used to be a color separator for the lithographic industry, and I also used to teach color theory as applied to the litho process, at Ariz. State Univ. In those days, I had access to color-measuring instruments, such as a color densitometer. This equipment allowed me to measure, and plot, accurately, the positions of colors on a color wheel. Even after I retired from the litho trade, I had friends who worked with this equipment, so I was able to go into their plants, and use it.

The nice thing about being able to measure, and plot colors accurately on a color wheel is that there is no doubt about the actual placement of colors in relation to each other. While the eye is quite capable of comparing color differences, the actual measurement, and placement makes doing so much more accurate. It also helps to dispel many opinion-based arguments.

This is a color wheel upon which I just happen to have place the "Manganese Blue" we are discussing, as well as a few other "Blues", as well. This may give you some idea of the relative locations of these "Blues" on the color wheel. I always place the word, "Blue" in quotes because most of the colors that we artists consider to be Blue, are truly more biased toward true Cyan, a primary color. (That's the reason these "Blues" mix with Yellow to create Green so readily.)

Anyway, here's the color wheel:


Just figured that you might find this interesting. If I may help you interpret the results a bit......Notice that Manganese Blue is nearly the same hue (same spoke of the wheel) as Cerulean Blue, but it plots a tad "cleaner" (closer to the outer ring of the color wheel, where the higher chroma (lack of grayness) colors exist.
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Last edited by WFMartin : 04-20-2019 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 05:57 PM
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

As usual, the Handprint site is helpful. Among its many pages and diagrams devoted to this topic, this one might be useful. But keep in mind that Handprint doesn't usually discuss transparency, probably because it is devoted to watercolors instead of oils, where the effect of transparency is very different.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:42 AM
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Quite a few blues to choose from, in various hues and opacities. Also, because transparent colors vary in color from masstone to undertone, a singular location on a color wheel/plot doesn't fully describe the color.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:09 PM
ntl ntl is offline
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Thanks. I hope to start on these paintings soon. It's all experimentation at this point.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:25 AM
tiago.dagostini tiago.dagostini is offline
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick1
Quite a few blues to choose from, in various hues and opacities. Also, because transparent colors vary in color from masstone to undertone, a singular location on a color wheel/plot doesn't fully describe the color.




Where do you guys find these "color wheel"images with pigments specifically positioned? I was looking for a complete (as in complete wheel. not as in all pigments that I know are too many) to help me explain a topic in a class.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:51 AM
ntl ntl is offline
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

I stumbled on the one I found at http://www.procato.com/rgbfind/

There's a lot of info there, maybe some can help you.
On the page, http://www.procato.com/color+calendar/ if you click the "expand" button in the very upper right of the screen, it opens all the colors of all the months. Click on a color and go to http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/34E500/
and get analogous color schemes. I guess those names are "also known as" .

Click on today, May 2 to go to http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/0060E5/

On the upper right is a box "on this page" click on "color harmonies" to open the various boxes for use.
Clicking "color conversions" opens other information that may(or not) be helpful.


Explore the links bar under "RGB Chart & Multi Tool"
the color wheel is expandable, too. http://www.procato.com/color+wheel/

Then there's a color map with meaningful names: http://www.procato.com/rgb+index/

here's a list of colors https://color-ize.com/color-list.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_colors
You could search by name: https://rgbcolorcode.com/color/alien-armpit

Hope this helps without overwhelming

I just found this: http://www.perbang.dk/color+scheme/
it will generate various color schemes for you.

Last edited by ntl : 05-02-2019 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 05-02-2019, 12:00 PM
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Re: Analogous colors for manganese blue

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiago.dagostini
Where do you guys find these "color wheel" images with pigments specifically positioned?

Here is the one posted by Patrick1. It shows hue-saturation space.

This one is more rarely seen. It shows value-saturation space.
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