Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting The Technical Forum Ivory or Lamp Black

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  • #987852
    TheBaron
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        which is the better of the two? I need a new tube or two and was was wondering which to purchase at the weekend.

        :wave:

        George:I reckon Picasso couldn't do jigsaws as a child
        Oil Painting - WetCanvas!
        The MIO is this way------->https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599820)

        #1115268

        Ivory Black used to be called “Bone Black”. Now, it’s a hue, PbK 9: calcium phosphate (78%), calcium carbonate (8%) with small quantities of calcium sulphate, magnesium phosphate, calcium sulfide and other soluble salts.

        Lamp Black, PBk7: Inorganic; Amorphous carbon from soot.

        Thanks to: http://www.artiscreation.com

        Forcing the waveform to collapse for two decades...
        http://www.syntheticskystudios.com
        Hilliard Gallery, Kansas City, "Small Works", December 2019

        #1115279
        TheBaron
        Default

            Ivory black refers to bones burnt to charcoal then ground to powder. You don’t really believe any paint company in the world is burning bones to make “ivory black”, do you? Lamp black refers to soot from burned oil, coal, or possibly anything that creats soot when burned. You don’t really believe any paint company in the world hires people to scrape soot from chimneys do you? :lol:

            Damn and there was me thinking “Mars Black” came from rocks of the planet “Mars”…just goes to show you can’t believe everything you hear…tsk! :rolleyes:

            George:I reckon Picasso couldn't do jigsaws as a child
            Oil Painting - WetCanvas!
            The MIO is this way------->https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599820)

            #1115273
            gunzorro
            Default

                Keith I’m not so sure about the Bone Black PBk9 — even the site shows it as made from burned animal bones, with the chemical composition you noted.

                But you are right, it is no longer made from burning ivory.

                #1115270
                dcorc
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                    George, you might want to invest in some Mars Black, even if it isn’t really Martian – see the greyscales thread :)

                    My experience with the W&N Ivory black is that its relatively (semi-)transparent, good for glazes, and the W&N Lamp black is much more opaque. (I’ve made hand-mulled Ivory black from Sennelier pigment, and was able to get it much more opaque than the W&N one)

                    Keith – you missed the 10% carbon, for the bone/”ivory” black – and it is animal bones (it’s a “hue” in the sense that its not really ivory).

                    Dave

                    #1115286
                    rltromble
                    Default

                        Without going into the pigment numbers and arguing about how they are made. I will just give my opinion.
                        I have all three of these, Ivory black is my general use black when I do use it. Mars is fine if you are doing a painting in one sitting but if you use it in a mixture don’t expect to use that mix for more then a day or two, it drys that fast. It also seems to have the least amount of blue in it. Lamp to me seems to be the bluest and most transparent of the blacks. Let me put it this way if I was to mix each of these blacks with a yellow to the same value, I would have three diffrent greens. The cleanest brightest green would come from the Ivory. :)

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                        #1115271
                        dcorc
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                            Lamp to me seems to be the….. most transparent of the blacks

                            Which makes the point nicely that they can vary a lot from manufacturer to manufacturer (hopefully not batch to batch :lol: ). My W&N Lamp black is pretty opaque – I assume yours is a different brand?

                            #1115287
                            rltromble
                            Default

                                It is. :) But it may have to do with that its the only student color in the batch. :D My mars is old Holland, my Ivory is Michael Harding.:cat:

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                                #1115290
                                Addy
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                                    I have Daniel Smith’s Mars Black and W & N’s Ivory Black. Both are nice and lean slightly towards blue when mixed with Titanium White. Mars seems more opaque and Ivory Black has a funky smell.:)

                                    #1115276

                                    I find lamp very oily and takes ages to dry – so it is good for blending, and I rather like it. Agree (at least the W&N one) has a bit of a blue undertone and is opaque. I wouldn’t use it for underpaintings – I use Mars black which dries faster and is much less oily.

                                    I don’t think I have any Ivory black in oils, but I do have some in student acrylics. In student acrylics I’ve found pure Ivory black is semi-transparent and brownish compared to Mars black (can’t compare with lamp as I don’t think it is available in acrylics). Ivory black looks quite different when is lightened when spread thinly compared to cut with white (I wonder if it is something weird like its masstone is brown but undertone is blue?). Someone has done a thread on different greys which may be of interest.

                                    You can also get blue-black which some people use with a restricted earth palette (to provide blues).

                                    If choosing between lamp and mars I would base my choice totally on whether a lean(ish) fast-drier or oily slow-drier is your preference.

                                    Just my view,

                                    Chris

                                    #1115274
                                    gunzorro
                                    Default

                                        I agree with Dave — there are many variations between manufacturers.

                                        Pigments vary within the type, and oils used can influence the final color.

                                        Blacks tend to be extremely oil-rich paints, hence the long drying time, except for Mars Black (iron oxide) which has some natural drying tendencies making it a “normal drier” not a fast drier.

                                        Here is a chart I did from a couple years ago, showing a great number of blacks, mostly grouped by types. The main benefit is that you can see the relative tints of the different types.

                                        I believe these were done with 50/50 mix of lead/titanium white for the middle, and that mix then having added Burnt Umber to produce a more neutral on the right side.

                                        Notice the relative tinting strength between the types — the same amount of white was used throughout.

                                        Here is a quick look at the Vasari types:

                                        There are a number of reasons to use the different types.

                                        When I want a milder influence, I usually go with Mussini’s Ivory Black, which although not weak, is a very gentle black with wonderful blending capabilities, smooth consistency and decent tranluscency.

                                        My overall black has become Mars Black, which is slightly stronger and faster drying. Consistency is decent, but loses some smoothness in handling compared to Ivory Black. My favorites are Vasari, Blockx and Old Holland.

                                        I was initially bowled over by Lamp (also called Carbon) Black when I first tried Old Holland’s version several years ago. It is also called Intense Black by Williamsburg, and for good reason! A little goes a long way and it is the deepest black. My favorite, and the darkest I’ve found so far, is Maimeri’s Puro version. I commonly mix a little Lamp Black into Mars Black when I want a really strong, but managable, black.

                                        Perhaps I’ll do a new comparison sheet, making it a little more informative, after I receive the WN Mars Black I’ve been hearing about.

                                        #1115288
                                        rltromble
                                        Default

                                            I think calling any black carbon black is a little miss leading, since both Ivory and Lamb black are carbon blacks.
                                            George you could buy one of each, blacks tend to be one of the cheapest colors and a tube will last you forever. Okay not forever, but a really long time.

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                                            #1115280
                                            Anonymous

                                                Man, not much you can add to all that except some trivia, mars black is the only one that is attracted to a magnet! you can actually tell the pigment load is more or less in some brands because the attraction is stronger or weaker.

                                                #1115284
                                                Ironmaul
                                                Default

                                                    This is a very informative thread. I have Ivory Black(M.Harding), Lamp Black(Art Spectrum) and think I will buy some W&N Mars Black after hearing that it is close to near neutral when mixed with specific whites.

                                                    Man, not much you can add to all that except some trivia, mars black is the only one that is attracted to a magnet! you can actually tell the pigment load is more or less in some brands because the attraction is stronger or weaker.

                                                    I’ll have to try that out when I get some, bizzar!

                                                    Freelance artist Rick Hansen.
                                                    #1115281
                                                    Anonymous

                                                        It is the iron compound in the pigment, the only one I know that does it. It is used to provide machine readable magnetic printing on bank checks.

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