Home Forums Explore Media Watercolor The Learning Zone substitute for brown madder?

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  • #988710
    LKrieger
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        I have subscribed to PaintPal and she uses Brown Madder a lot. I have looked at handprint but am having difficulty figuring out what to substitute, maybe burnt sienna? Any suggestions?

        Lois - The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time--James Taylor
        My Art Gallery http://www.art-3000.com/artist/?id=681

        #1141443
        Srishti
        Default

            Hi Lois :wave:
            Teh W&N Brown Madder is a Quinacridone pigment.
            The closest matches in hue are Venesian Red, then Light Red and then Burnt Sienna, though all these are either Synthetic or natural iron oxide. So though they look similar, their physical properties would differ.
            Venesian Red is almost identical in hue, but if you have none other then Burnt Sienna will work just great!
            :D Enjoy!

            #1141441

            I’ve been using Brown Madder for over 20 years and I’ve yet to uncover a substitute. Combined with Antwerp Blue, I find it produces a variety of cool grays I find invaluable in mixing with other colours. When starting any new project, the first thing I do is mix up a strong pure colour in the well closest to either colour, then combine them to form my basic dark gray. Mind you, that’s an individual preference and it doesn’t make it “right”, just the way I work and from personal experience over the years it works for me. Brown Madder is a work-horse colour in my palette, as is Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine Blue. I’m sure many others do just as well with other favourites, and the problem with taking too many workshops is you seem to acquire a drawer full of exotic colours you rarely use when you get back to your own studio!

            John


            http://www.watercoloursforfun.com
            http://www.flickr.com/photos/48486949@N07/sets/72157623714540290/

            #1141435

            Lois,
            I agree with John. Brown Madder is a beautiful color unlike any of my other colors. It would be worth your while to buy a tube just to experience it and learn to use it in your paintings. :D

            Burnt Sienna has a more orange cast to it than Brown Madder. Its # is
            PR 206 which is the same as WN Permanent Alizarin Crimson, but they look nothing alike. One site I looked at said this about brown madder: An alizarin crimson and diarylide yellow mix, but my tube of WN said it is a single pigment #PR206.

            John, That is a terrific suggestion about mixing up a gray from two of the colors in your painting right off the bat when you start a painting so it is readily available. :thumbsup:

            Sylvia

            #1141445
            CarlosBS
            Default

                It depends… are you going to use BM unmixed?, for dulling warm pigments? for graying blue hues…? for landscapes, for flesh tones?

                Every historic fugitive pigment have some useful replacement in the modern chemistry.

                WN Permanent Alizarin Crimson is PR N/A+ PR206..
                WN Brown Madder is only PR206

                Stains on paper
                #1141436

                Carlos,

                According to Winsor & Newton’s watercolor chart, this is their description for both colors:

                Color name: Permanent Alizarin Crimson
                Color number/code: 466
                Series number: 3
                Chemical description: Quinacridone pyrrolidone, Quinacridone
                Color index name: – , PR 206
                Color index number: – 73920
                Permanence rating: A – Permanent

                and

                Color name: Brown Madder
                Color number/code: 056
                Series number: 1
                Chemical description: Quinacridone
                Color index name: PR 206
                Color index number: 73920
                Permanence rating: A – Permanent
                ASTM lightfastness rating: N/L

                According to this, there is no problem with either one being fugitive any longer.

                Sylvia

                #1141438
                Neeman
                Default

                    W/N Light Red is very close in hue, more opaque

                    #1141439
                    LKrieger
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                        Thanks everyone. I decided to go ahead and order some Brown Madder.

                        Lois - The secret of life is enjoying the passage of time--James Taylor
                        My Art Gallery http://www.art-3000.com/artist/?id=681

                        #1141440
                        juneto
                        Default

                            Has anyone tried mixing Burnt Umber with Alizarin to get a near match ??
                            June

                            Follow your Bliss and the Universe will open doors for you , where there were only walls. Joseph Campbell


                            http://blogmomcom.blogspot.com/

                            #1141442
                            Catwoman2
                            Default

                                I know that brown madder is one of Shirley Trevena’s favorite paint colors, and she describes it in one of her books as being “blood red.”

                                Personally, I think June’s suggestion to mix burnt umber and permanent alizarin crimson could result in a pretty close match.

                                Susan

                                #1141444
                                Pandemonium
                                Default

                                    Daniel Smith’s Quinacridone Burnt Scarlet is also PR 206. The pigment is called quinacridone maroon.

                                    #1141448
                                    DN Manel
                                    Default

                                        You won’t regret to go to Brown Madder, mix it with blues, especially with Ultramarine, it’ll give you beautiful range of purple grays. It’s very versatile. You can use it as pure hue or as a great mixer. My advice, go for it.

                                        Daniel

                                        "Art, like life, should be free, since both are experimental."
                                        -George Santayana
                                        #1141446
                                        CarlosBS
                                        Default

                                            You won’t regret to go to Brown Madder, mix it with blues, especially with Ultramarine, it’ll give you beautiful range of purple grays. It’s very versatile. You can use it as pure hue or as a great mixer. My advice, go for it.

                                            Well, maybe he will regret in some years when the madder fades… :D

                                            Stains on paper
                                            #1141437

                                            Carlos,
                                            Check out the Permanence Rating below for Brown Madder. This is from Winsor & Newton’s site about their paints:

                                            Color name: Brown Madder
                                            Color number/code: 056
                                            Series number: 1
                                            Chemical description: Quinacridone
                                            Color index name: PR 206
                                            Color index number: 73920
                                            [COLOR=”Red]Permanence rating: A – Permanent[/COLOR]
                                            ASTM lightfastness rating: N/L

                                            To me, that indicates that it will not fade as it used to do in earlier times.

                                            Sylvia

                                            #1141447
                                            CarlosBS
                                            Default

                                                Carlos,
                                                Check out the Permanence Rating below for Brown Madder. This is from Winsor & Newton’s site about their paints:

                                                To me, that indicates that it will not fade as it used to do in earlier times.

                                                Sylvia

                                                Oh i wasnt talking about WN Brown Madder i was talking about original Brown Madder….otherwise i did not get the initial question… why looking for a substitute of a Permanent Brown Madder like the one WN makes?

                                                Stains on paper
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