Home › Forums › The Learning Center › Color Theory and Mixing › PR 177 vs PR187

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  • July 28, 2016 at 3:02 pm #994287
    VengadorAmarillo
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        Hi!!!!; I want to add a crimson to my palette; but only have money to buy one of this two options:

        A) Old Holland’s “burgundy wine red” PR 177

        B) Williamsburg “Carl’s Crimson” PR 187

        Which one of these would you recommend me and why???… I’ve read that pr 177 may be fugitive like alizarin, is true? :s

        Thanks in advance!!!!

        PD: I have already a tube of “ultramarine rose” pr259, and a quin magenta (pv23 + pr122)

        July 28, 2016 at 4:44 pm #1255595
        cb3
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            I think either would be a gorgeous color to have. Two great paint makers.

            I have Old Holland Alizarin crimson lake extra
            Its a mix.
            Colour index :PV19-PR177-PBR23
            Its wonderful – I want to eat it. It looks that good.

            August 1, 2016 at 1:20 pm #1255592
            Brian Firth
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                In my tests PR177 is lightfast and MUCH more lightfast than genuine alizarin crimson. I have no problem recommending it as a permanent crimson.

                https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448871

                I do not have any experience with PR187 and it is not ASTM rated but Golden/Williamsburg is currently testing theirs and so far it appears to be very lightfast, certainly more so than alizarin crimson. http://www.williamsburgoils.com/blog/?p=220

                I think either one would be a safe choice and really would come down to personal preference in the handling of the actual paints.

                "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
                -- Carl Sagan

                Brian Firth

                August 1, 2016 at 10:19 pm #1255597
                opainter
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                    I paint acrylics, not oils, and there is only one single-pigment acrylic paint made with PR 177, and that is M. Graham’s paint. It is so far superior to “true” Alizarin Crimson (PR 83) in lightfastness that I would have no qualms about using it in its place. In fact I do use a combination-pigment acrylic paint that contains PR 177, and that is “Moonglow,” a discontinued Daniel Smith acrylic color.

                    AJ (opainter), C&C always welcome
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                    August 4, 2016 at 12:20 pm #1255591
                    WFMartin
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                        I don’t really know what PR187 is, but PR177 is basically “Permanent Alizarin Crimson”. It is lightfast, as far as I know and I have used Old Holland’s Burgundy Wine Red, as well as M. Graham’s Anthraquinone Red, both of which are PR177.

                        I would recommend either of these paints.

                        wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                        https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                        August 13, 2016 at 7:34 pm #1255599
                        Grifo07
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                            Hi I’ve been using Titan’s carmine granza, that is PR122+ PR187, and works fine. Unfortunately as its price has increased dramatically I am about to replace it forma Rembrandt’s PR177. Both options are perfect. I’ll choose the cheapest

                            October 31, 2017 at 4:08 am #1255594
                            Phil Coleman
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                                Does anyone still use PR83, I have some watercolours going back 13 years, they are not kept in direct sunlight and there appears to be no variation from when they was originally painted!
                                If everyone is crying about using a fugitive pigment, would a varnish with a combined UV protector not help maintaining the colours qualities.

                                October 31, 2017 at 7:12 am #1255593
                                Mythrill
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                                    Does anyone still use PR83, I have some watercolours going back 13 years, they are not kept in direct sunlight and there appears to be no variation from when they was originally painted!
                                    [/quote]

                                    That’s exactly the problem.

                                    If you keep your artwork in the absolute dark, then even Genuine Carmine (NR 4) from 500 years ago is lightfast.

                                    However, you probably want to hang it near sunlight without worrying. And today, we have MANY alternatives far superior to Alizarin (PR 83) for that. They’re not exactly the same hue – they’ll never be. But they’re so close and can be so much more lightfast it’s not even funny.

                                    [QUOTE=Phil Coleman]
                                    If everyone is crying about using a fugitive pigment, would a varnish with a combined UV protector not help maintaining the colours qualities.

                                    UV varnishes can help a lot, and by all means you should use them if you can buy them. However, in order to get serious sunlight protection for fugitive pigments, you have to apply multiple coats. In Golden’s tests, they have to apply up to 6 coats to get significant results for fugitive pigments. That can drastically change how your artwork looks.

                                    October 31, 2017 at 12:18 pm #1255596
                                    Gigalot
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                                        If everyone is crying about using a fugitive pigment, would a varnish with a combined UV protector not help maintaining the colours qualities.

                                        HALS in varnish can’t give long life protections. It is recommended to use fresh made UV filtered varnishes with HALS protection because HALS UV filter can’t stay long. It will deteriorate after a couple of years. So, HALS can’t help to protect paintings for century, but can do something to protect it for several years or decade.

                                        BTW, I have PR187 oil paint. What a gorgeous color! :heart:

                                        October 31, 2017 at 2:45 pm #1255598
                                        ragtopcircus
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                                            PR264 Pyrrole Rubine is another option.

                                            From Talens, it is Permanent Madder Deep in Rembrandt and Madder Lake in Cobra.

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