Ultramarine...Warm or cool blue...What's your opinion?

[KokoronoTenshi]

Originally Posted by Mythrill

Phtalo Blue Green Shade (Pb 15:4 http://www.goldenpaints.com/products...1255infopg.php

Ultramarine Blue Green Shade (Pb 29 http://www.goldenpaints.com/products...1400infopg.php

Honestly even in this chart I still see PB 15:4 as cooler than Ultramarine (green shade) which to me doesn't look very different from typical Ultramarine. Maybe it's different way of perception or sth.
Ultramarine just looks "whiter" and the problem is both pigments were mixed with the same proportions of white but this Ultramarine looks like has poor tinting strength and titanium white easily overpowered it. What I said earlier, It still quiet and gentle, and PB is bright and loud like cerulean.

[Mythrill]

Originally Posted by KokoronoTenshi

Honestly even in this chart I still see PB 15:4 as cooler than Ultramarine (green shade) which to me doesn't look very different from typical Ultramarine. Maybe it's different way of perception or sth.
Ultramarine just looks "whiter" and the problem is both pigments were mixed with the same proportions of white but this Ultramarine looks like has poor tinting strength and titanium white easily overpowered it. What I said earlier, It still quiet and gentle, and PB is bright and loud like cerulean.

Do you mean Cerulean Blue Stannate (PB35) or Cerulean Blue Chrome (Pb36)? Pb35, at least the one I use, is pretty quiet and a bluish-gray, whereas chrome is more intense and reddish.

In any case, being warm or cool has nothing to do with mixing with white (or black) or how vibrant a pigment is. That is saturation. Also, how strong a pigment is in mixes doesn't define how warm or cool it is. That is tinting strength.

Example: Out of the tube, PB35 is cooler than any Cadmium Red (PR 108.) Mixing down PB35 or PB36 with white still won't make it any cooler than a Cadmium.

I believe there are exceptions, of course – and most of these are organic pigments, where any phtalo blue is one of them, because the color perception changes a lot as you thin them down. For instance, out of the tube, any phtalo is nearly black in masstone, and therefore very cool. However, as you either thin it down or mix it with white, it becomes a much livelier color in the middle of the curve until it gets to a point where it starts to dull down. But then, you'd have to compare that desaturated pigment with another desaturated pigment too.

About Golden Ultramarine Blue looking whitened out of the tube, that could be the photo,or the manufacturer. This is how it looks in Winsor & Newton's Artists' Acrylics line. The swatches represent, left to right: Pb29 in fullmasstone, a tint with 50% water and it mixed with 50% white. Except for the right column (for obvious reasons,) do any of these looks "whitish" to you?

[LMWilliams]

When I first read that phthalo was considered cool I genuinely thought it was a typo. I couldnt comprehend why anyone would think that! It confused me for days. My logic was I'd always prefer to swim in a sea of phthalo then a sea of ultramarine. But after much research i discovered how spilt the art community is on the definition of cool/warm and didn't feel so controversial. Based with the new info though I accepted that there is a scientific logic to it and that also some people just see colours differently. I do question a lot of art theory now though. Sometimes when articles say these certain colour choices make things receed/compliment/enhance etc. i really disagree. I don't see it like they do. And obviously my work reflects that. Im content being technically wrong, however, because my work looks right to me. I know the theory and choose to ignore it for my own taste/preferences. Maybe some would be horrified at my colour choices but I know others would get it.

[Artistic License]

I have just finished reading an article wherein the author stated that phthalo blue is the true primary blue and it becomes ultramarine blue when red is added to it. I tried it and could not match the ultramarine blue that is in the tube of paint.

[llawrence]

Originally Posted by Mythrill

In any case, being warm or cool has nothing to do with mixing with white (or black) or how vibrant a pigment is. That is saturation.

By my practice, saturation has a huge amount to do with temperature. More even than hue does, usually. A grayed red will be cooler than a more saturated red. When working with a subject containing little in the way of hue variation, such as skin tones, my best route to temperature variation is generally through saturation contrast, rather than hue contrast.

Or, sometimes, combining the two. For instance: If I've got a portrait and the background is blue, and I want to tie the foreground to the background, I don't have to put actual blue in the skin tones - just a grayed red-orange, pushing the color toward blue but not actually getting anywhere near it. That'll be plenty.

[R00TER]

From my understanding, French Ultramarine always sits soundly at point Blue Violet on the cool side of the 12point colour wheel. As it tends toward Violet more easily than it tends toward the coolest point Blue Green, I would say that Ultramarine (and its parrallel at point Yellow Green) are the warmest whole points on the cool side of the wheel.

...French Ultramarine is my favourite colour to look at as a pure state pigment; before ground with oil it resonates on the slab like no other, and the glow is certainly warm.

[Patrick1]

Originally Posted by Artistic License

I have just finished reading an article wherein the author stated that phthalo blue is the true primary blue and it becomes ultramarine blue when red is added to it. I tried it and could not match the ultramarine blue that is in the tube of paint.

Yup...there are a lot of notions floating about in the realm of 'color theory' that don't adhere to reality when you just mix the paint to see for yourself if it's true or not!

[Callie917]

I agree with you Jason about the cool and warm. Also Phthalo blue, in my opinion is very dull and I sometimes find it difficult to use because it bores me. It lacks the intensity that I like. It most definitely seems more of a warm color.

[Avena Cash]

Originally Posted by llawrence

By my practice, saturation has a huge amount to do with temperature. More even than hue does, usually. A grayed red will be cooler than a more saturated red. When working with a subject containing little in the way of hue variation, such as skin tones, my best route to temperature variation is generally through saturation contrast, rather than hue contrast.

Or, sometimes, combining the two. For instance: If I've got a portrait and the background is blue, and I want to tie the foreground to the background, I don't have to put actual blue in the skin tones - just a grayed red-orange, pushing the color toward blue but not actually getting anywhere near it. That'll be plenty.

Reducing the saturation reduces the warmth, but the red pigments are still just as warm. There's just less of that original warm pigment in a mixture so your mix is cooler. The original red isn't cooler, it's weaker. But gray is cooler than red as is blue, so in a mix it's cooler of course. When adding white, the change of intensity doesn't change whether the original color pigment is cooler or warmer, although perceptions of the total mixture can shift.

I would happily use the blue to tone down an orange red anyway... Often works better

I personally think that gray and black are cool "colors" themselves, not in the middle. Warm neutrals are browns, cools are grays. Gray or black would have a cooling effect on almost anything they are mixed with, while also weakening intensity. In mixes browns warm colors, except if that color is already warmer than the brown. I love those neutrals in the zone where grays meet browns, cool browns/warm grays. They are very useful. A raw umber is a more neutral neutral than burnt sienna or black...

On the ultramarine, it's more important to know that it is cooler than the violet next to it and that the pthalo or cobalt blue is cooler than the green next to it than it is to pick which blue is cooler. Let them sit there being equally cool split primaries for all I care. I treat the ultramarine as cooler, myself. (But I never use pthalo blue anyway as pthalos are unpleasant to me.) The reddishness in the ultramarine simply doesn't warm it up as much as a yellow in a pthalo, and I see the blue-violet as the maximum cool point in the wheel.

Maybe a good way to test them would be with their ability to cool another color? Would you cool a red or a yellow? Or even a green or violet? With the ultramarine I would get a cooler green mixed with yellow, and a cooler violet if mixed with red. That's my experience. And since the coolness is the main point of blue, I find the ultramarine meets all of my blue needs almost always. Usually it's the only blue I use.

[Horsa]

Remember that in colour theory all the colours are theoretical.

In reality neither paints nor pigments are colours. For the most part they behave similarly to colours. But to see proof that they are not colours try mixing white and black from your favorite colours of pigment, light and paint. Do not use a computer painting program for this. Use actual light and actual pigments and paints.

Consider also that physical objects range from red, orange, yellow, white as the get hotter. But the cooling spectrum of oxides runs in reverse . Yellow is coolest, blue is hottest.

I find the whole discussion of whether colour are "warm" or "cool" to be somewhat moot as it seems there is no agreed upon "cool pole" or "warm pole" on the colour wheel. Is yellow, red or orange warmest? Is blue or green coolest?

[Avena Cash]

I think the extra stuff about light and physical heat and oxides is what is moot.

What paint does is the point here so the warmth relevant in painting is what counts.

I think there are obvious poles but people could argue against me forever I am sure. The warm colors are easy to find a pole because while there are cool yellow and warm yellows as well as cool reds and warm reds, I think there is not such thing as a cool orange. You can have a weakened orange but not a cool one. So that pretty much makes orange the definitive warm color. Blue seems to be the definitive cool color. Blue however can be a split primary, so is one side of that split cooler or warmer? Or is ultramarine possibly closer to the "center" of blueness than pthalo, therefore cooler? Ultimately, why even care?

If you master paint relationships and learn all of the time in painting practice that is what counts.

[Horsa]

Not moot at all.

But you are arguing against yourself on the obviousness of the cool pole. You say blue, but then immediately question this as blue is a split primary.

It is clear from the frequency of discussions and questions about which colours are warm or cool that it is far from obvious.

Ultimately warm and cool seem only to be relevant as terms of comparison. A is warmer than B, but cooler than C.

[llawrence]

Originally Posted by Avena Cash

But gray is cooler than red as is blue, so in a mix it's cooler of course.

Yes, of course - we're talking about colors here, not how one arrives at them by mixing. I'm not sure from your post if you were agreeing with me or not.

I probably agree that there is a warmest hue (at full saturation that is), on either side of which is a hue that is visually cooler. But we should be aware, from this thread and many others, that folks are more or less completely divided on the issue of a coolest blue. Since color temperature is about psychology and contrast, I think we have to come to terms with people's mixed response and accept that there is no such thing as a coolest blue, but that any blue (or cyan) could be considered the coolest color, based on its context within a composition.