WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Oil Painting > The Technical Forum
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-12-2019, 12:06 PM
TomM1's Avatar
TomM1 TomM1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 77
 
Hails from United States
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

I have not had any issues, that I have seen, with white yellowing. Yet.
My whites for the past 39 years have been lead.
That said, I never use pure white even in paintings featuring white clouds.
I always slightly tint with ocher or maybe a mars red.
__________________
Website
Reply With Quote
  #17   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-12-2019, 12:22 PM
Pinguino's Avatar
Pinguino Pinguino is offline
Lord of the Arts
Monterey Bay area, California
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,123
 
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

Quite apart from any inherent yellowing of the paint itself: Let's not forget that until the late 19th Century, indoor nighttime illumination was by burning oil or wax. Unless recently restored, most older artwork, whether as framed paintings or wall murals, has been coated with such things as incompletely burned whale blubber, cattle fat, and olive oil. Over a long enough time, this stuff can partially polymerize.

Framed oil paintings are not normally covered by glass. Framed watercolors often are covered. Acrylics didn't exist, back then.

A few months ago, I read a wonderful book from the local public library. It was the translation to English of a French sea captain's commercial journeys up and down the west coast of the Americas, North and South, in the era when Mexico was free from Spain but California was still Mexico. This captain was well-educated and came from a prominent French family that had escaped being executed during the French Revolution. Being neither English nor Spanish, his ship did not encounter trouble at sea. In port, he would get more or less cooperation from the civil authorities (especially Mexico) who wanted to impose excessive duties. This was compensated by his good relationship with religious authorities (he being pious Roman Catholic).

Much of his trade involved transporting barreled animal fat (often from deer or elk) from California to Chile. Not the meat or leather; they had enough to eat and wear in Chile. But the rendered fat was used as fuel. The Chilean ports didn't have much wood to burn, or enough fat from their food animals.

Even today, the kind of restaurant that deep-fries a lot, will retain congealed fat in a special container, and that fat (tallow) will be recycled by a factory for some purpose.
Reply With Quote
  #18   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-12-2019, 08:47 PM
Delofasht's Avatar
Delofasht Delofasht is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
Town of George, Kentucky
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,771
 
Hails from United States
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinguino
...and that fat (tallow) will be recycled by a factory for some purpose.

Soap making! Somewhat a joke, but it would be hilarious to think that the food we eat has a byproduct that gets used to clean our hands.
__________________
- Delo

Delofasht
Reply With Quote
  #19   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-13-2019, 04:18 AM
Gigalot's Avatar
Gigalot Gigalot is online now
A Local Legend
Tbilisi, Georgia
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,425
 
Hails from Georgia
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

I think, that Zinc-free Lead White is the most yellowish white paint ever. Not useful to mix vivid violet color, magenta or pure blue. It will turn beige over time. Lead white is more of an ivory color than white. I like to use Art Creation Naples Yellow PBr24 instead of any toxic Lead.
However, white color must be white, not a beige or brown like Lead "White" paint!
BTW, Chinese Zinc-Free oil paint made from Chalk mixed with Titanium White is equal yellowish, even more weak and ropey than Lead White. It is my favorite "Lead" replacement for mixing and for underpaintings. A small amount of Alkyd medium can let it dry over night.

Last edited by Gigalot : 07-13-2019 at 04:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-13-2019, 04:29 AM
Richard P Richard P is online now
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,306
 
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

An old formulation of Permalba White (I don't know about the newest one) was found to contain a small amount of Ultramarine Blue by conservators.

To me a slightly bluish white can look more 'pure white' than a slightly yellow one.
Reply With Quote
  #21   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-13-2019, 01:42 PM
AnnieA's Avatar
AnnieA AnnieA is online now
A Local Legend
Washington state
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,122
 
Hails from United States
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidbledsoe
No, and I have never had any strontium white paint, I think a some whites like Permalba probably have a healthy dose of lithopone in them.


it is about the whitest white I have used, but many threads here have people complaining about how darn chalky and evil are the really strong tinting ultra white titaniums, and lovin' on lead white because it isn't so overpoweringly white.
Actually, Sid, I was referring to a test of a wide range of Titanium whites by different manufacturers that I thought you had done, not of the new pigments such as Lithopone. Sorry that I wasn't clear. Your speculation about Permalba incorporating Lithopone is interesting...

tidal, both of those pigments I mentioned are being used in artist oil paint. Holbein's Ceramic White is Strontium Titanate, and Lithopone is used for Williamsburg's Porcelain White as well as Lukas' Opaque White. Don't ask me why the Lukas paint has "Opaque" in the name, as Lithopone is supposed to be semi-transparent, lying someplace between Titanium and Zinc. There may be other new paints incorporating alternative white pigments or companies offering Strontium Titanate or Lithopone paints.
__________________
C&C always welcome ©

“Life is a pure flame and we live by an invisible sun within us.”
― Sir Thomas Browne


Last edited by AnnieA : 07-13-2019 at 01:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-13-2019, 10:11 PM
sidbledsoe's Avatar
sidbledsoe sidbledsoe is offline
WC! Guide
Maryland, USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 16,343
 
Hails from United States
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

Quote:
Your speculation about Permalba incorporating Lithopone is interesting..
it wasn't speculation, it was in my memory banks.
I just found the recipe, Permalba is mainly lithopone (aka blanc fixe)
more than both the titanium and zinc pigments combined.
Reply With Quote
  #23   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-13-2019, 11:55 PM
contumacious contumacious is online now
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,768
 
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidbledsoe
it wasn't speculation, it was in my memory banks.
I just found the recipe, Permalba is mainly lithopone (aka blanc fixe)
more than both the titanium and zinc pigments combined.

It would be interesting to see the current recipe compared that 1965 era formula.
Reply With Quote
  #24   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-14-2019, 04:30 AM
Gigalot's Avatar
Gigalot Gigalot is online now
A Local Legend
Tbilisi, Georgia
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,425
 
Hails from Georgia
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidbledsoe
it wasn't speculation, it was in my memory banks.
I just found the recipe, Permalba is mainly lithopone (aka blanc fixe)
more than both the titanium and zinc pigments combined.
Blanc Fixe is pure Barium Sulfate. Not Lithopone. Lithopone contains ZnS (Zinc sulfide) and Blank fixe. There isn't ZnS in Permalba White formulation.
Reply With Quote
  #25   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-14-2019, 02:00 PM
sidbledsoe's Avatar
sidbledsoe sidbledsoe is offline
WC! Guide
Maryland, USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 16,343
 
Hails from United States
Re: in search of the holy grail..non yellowing white lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigalot
Blanc Fixe is pure Barium Sulfate. Not Lithopone. Lithopone contains ZnS (Zinc sulfide) and Blank fixe. There isn't ZnS in Permalba White formulation.
yes that is a correct minor detail, some companies even say lithopone is also known as blanc fixe, like this one. But lithopone is mostly barium sulfate anyway, like 70%.
Permalba was formulated by Weber's son in 1921 and the purpose of it's creation was to make a lead free replacement for lead white. So it is no surprise that most of Permalba is composed of barium sulfate rather than being mostly titanium, since titanium is surely not a suitable replacement for lead white because it is way more opaque and strong tinting, where as the mixture developed probably mimics lead white in terms of things such as the opacity and tinting strength.

Last edited by sidbledsoe : 07-14-2019 at 02:03 PM.
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:55 AM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.