Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing Good oil paint brands?

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  • #993021
    SamL
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        With all due respect to Sam above, I would not recommend Holbien to anyone.
        That is not a reliable artist paint company: IMO of coarse.

        Which oil paint brands are good?
        (Now I consider both traditional oil colors and water soluble oil colors, as I am using vegetable oil to clean brushes during a session.)

        I don’t even know how to define a “good” oil paint brand. I guess:
        1) Without handling problems
        2) Without permanency problem

        What are some other criteria of a “good” oil paint brand?

        High pigment load probably should not be a criterion. I learned from another thread that too low filler content can cause depolymerization years later.

        #1225463
        Gigalot
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            I never tried, but I heart a lot positive about M.Graham oil paints. And Utrecht oil paints are always forgotten, but can be great. :)

            #1225449
            Mythrill
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                Which oil paint brands are good?
                (Now I consider both traditional oil colors and water soluble oil colors, as I am using vegetable oil to clean brushes during a session.)

                I don’t even know how to define a “good” oil paint brand. I guess:
                1) Without handling problems
                2) Without permanency problem

                What are some other criteria of a “good” oil paint brand?

                High pigment load probably should not be a criterion. I learned from another thread that too low filler content can cause depolymerization years later.

                Sam, pretty much any artist oil paint brand today will be good. When in doubt, stick to a brand like Winsor & Newton. Their QA today might be slightly inconsistent, but they’re still pretty good!

                #1225472
                Crystal1
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                    Sam it’s pretty much like buying cars, everybody has their favorite. You might look at DickBlick under professional oil colors to see what they consider professional. I highly suggest buying a single tube of paint from different brands, so that you can get the feel for each brand. I paint with WMOs because my husband has almost died from asthma attacks due to allergies, but I have to admit that traditional oil colors are easier to get the paint to do what you want it to do. Happy painting.

                    #1225474
                    MikeH53
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                        I wouldn’t be so dismissive of Holbein. Their paint is really quite excellent in my experience, better than Winsor and Newton, and a step below Wiliamsburg. Declaring a company to be inferior due to the insufficient permanency of a few pigments that are always impermanent (e.g. vermilions and blue shade naphthol red PR188) is not really a fair judgement, companies are also driven by market forces, and if there is sufficient demand for vermilion, companies will continue making vermilion, no matter how impermanent.

                        I’m a bit fed up with lightfastness anxiety in oil painting, lightfastness tests subject pigments to conditions they are unlikely to encounter in an oil medium, and are intended to simulate a centuries (or several) of light exposure. Even vermilion, vandyke brown, and alizarin will last hundreds of years in ambient indoor light, by that point the rest of the painting might be crumbling already (let’s face it, very few of our works will ever be considered by future restorers worth saving, and they probably won’t last beyond the next two centuries). Lightfastness tests are more relevant to watercolour, where pigment concentrations are such a small fraction of what is found in oil painting that ambient light actually poses a threat to permanence. Just find a paint you like, and use it.

                        [FONT=Verdana]"bright colors are ill advised and should always be avoided"

                        #1225450
                        Mythrill
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                            Declaring a company to be inferior due to the insufficient permanency of a few pigments that are always impermanent (e.g. vermilions and blue shade naphthol red PR188) is not really a fair judgement, companies are also driven by market forces, and if there is sufficient demand for vermilion, companies will continue making vermilion, no matter how impermanent.

                            Mike, that is not very accurate. First of all, Vermillion (PR 106) is not impermanent, but reactive. It will darken in the presence of hydrogen sulphide, and while it was not very common in the past, it is very common today due to pollutants released by cars. Also, some pigments vary from lightfast to impermanent depending on how they are made. Naphthol Red Light (PR112) and Lemon Yellow (PY 3) are two examples of that.

                            The problem with Holbein is that not only they use pigments with a bigger variance in quality, but sometimes they use the most fugitive versions of these pigments, with PR188 being one example.

                            Of course, if you want to purchase pigments that are more lightfast on the average, go for it. Ultramarine Blue (PB 29) will always be trustworthy no matter the brand – unless the quality of the brand is so bad they mix unlisted amounts of more fugitive pigments with Ultramarine, but that’s another story. :)

                            #1225475
                            MikeH53
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                                First of all, Vermillion (PR 106) is not impermanent, but reactive. It will darken in the presence of hydrogen sulphide, and while it was not very common in the past, it is very common today due to pollutants released by cars.

                                You’re probably thinking of lead white which reacts with hydrogen sulphide unless fully encased in a binder, which is the reason it is no longer used in anything but oil paints, and this darkening was much more of a problem in the 19th century, regulations have dramatically reduced atmospheric hydrogen sulphide in the past 30 years to near pre-industrial levels in most developed countries. Vermilion doesn’t react with atmospheric compounds when in oil (it does react badly with atmospheric chlorine when in watercolour), but rather it changes crystal structure upon exposure to light from less stable red hexagonal cinnabar to more stable, higher-entropy black metacinnabar. The former is how HgS crystals always initially form, the latter results from degradation due to applied energy, so the red form is the most common one found in nature, where it is rarely exposed to light (though often exposed to other sulphur-containing compounds, since it is associated with volcanism), while the latter is much rarer, despite having a more stable structure.

                                [FONT=Verdana]"bright colors are ill advised and should always be avoided"

                                #1225459
                                Anonymous

                                    I’m a bit fed up with lightfastness anxiety in oil painting,

                                    oh yes, it has reached an epic level.

                                    #1225500
                                    SamL
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                                        I never tried, but I heart a lot positive about M.Graham oil paints.

                                        M. Graham oil paint is made with walnut oil exclusively. Does this increase the possibility of paint film depolymerization?

                                        In the “Help with tacky painting” thread, it was mentioned that poppy oil can form unstable films, which can melt or crack, while linseed oil is better.

                                        With the same reasoning, can walnut oil form unstable films?

                                        #1225464
                                        Gigalot
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                                            M. Graham oil paint is made with walnut oil exclusively. Does this increase the possibility of paint film depolymerization?

                                            In the “Help with tacky painting” thread, it was mentioned that poppy oil can form unstable films, which can melt or crack, while linseed oil is better.

                                            With the same reasoning, can walnut oil form unstable films?

                                            Walnut oil is better than poppy oil. Also, poppy oil or other light colored oil is quite good when used with lead or Zinc. The problem can develop with some dark or black paints and, probably, with very pure titanium and with high oil/pigment ratio. I guess, Odd Nerdrum used too much medium..
                                            My own paint melted in thick and dark brush strokes, in which, unfortunately, I used more safflower oil. (But I was very sure it must dry!) The other painting surface area is well dried. :)
                                            Walnut oil I used without any troubles.

                                            #1225491
                                            Bradicus
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                                                Sam, I personally believe most artist grade paints are good.
                                                But I have noticed a odd, reoccurring theme where Holbien will tank on a LF test on seeming reliable paints.
                                                I refer to LF1 and 2.

                                                See our own Mr. Firth here at WC: note post #9.
                                                https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734451

                                                That said, one of my favorite contemporary paints uses Holbien.
                                                I, however, do not.

                                                Cheers,
                                                Brad

                                                #1225501
                                                SamL
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                                                    But I have noticed a odd, reoccurring theme where Holbien will tank on a LF test on seeming reliable paints.
                                                    See our own Mr. Firth here at WC: note post #9.
                                                    [url]https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734451[/url]

                                                    That comparison test is indeed alarming.

                                                    How can the same pigment PR188 perform so differently between Winsor and Holbein?

                                                    Do the oil paint makers (like Winsor and Holbein) produce their own pigments? Or do they buy pigments from outside pigment makers?

                                                    I wonder if the cause of the fading is the pigments or other ingredients in the tube.

                                                    #1225447
                                                    airplanz
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                                                        SamL, you might also want to visit the Oil Painting Forum. Very informative Sub-Forum and Sticky posts over there.

                                                        airplanz

                                                        #1225482
                                                        yellow_oxide
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                                                            Do the oil paint makers (like Winsor and Holbein) produce their own pigments? Or do they buy pigments from outside pigment makers?

                                                            Nearly all pigments used by all paint makers are made in large amounts by other pigment manufacturers that also supply other industries, especially plastics, car paint, and house paint. Paint for fine arts is a small corner of the pigment market as a whole. The only (very rare) exceptions for paint makers that actually make (a few) of their own pigments would be cases like Rublev making their own stack process lead white, or possibly Daniel Smith grinding various stones.

                                                            A pigment number can include a range of possibilities from small variations in the manufacturing process, such as heating at different temperatures for different lengths of time or using a different ratio of starting ingredients. Not all results, even if they have the same pigment number, have the same lightfastness.

                                                            #1225465
                                                            Gigalot
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                                                                Nevskaya Palitra is a manufacturer, who use several, made for artists, natural pigments from special deposits . Also, they are the only manufacturer of ceramic pigments and Cobalt pigments in Russia, However, most of organic pigment paints, White paints they have, are made from third party pigment manufacturers production.

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