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Old 09-18-2005, 04:56 PM
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artmom artmom is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Re: RIL verbiage

Dave, (and others) I think you may be missing the point of this paragraph:


Quote:
By checking this box, you agree that you exclusively own the license to grant the general public the right to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display your image for any purpose. You understand you will be held liable if you upload images for which you do not own the copyright. You also agree that the image you are posting is a photograph and not a painting.



Emphasis is mine.

This states that you exclusively own the license to grant...
This means that ONLY YOU own the copyright to the image you are uploading. It does not mean that you are granting the general public any rights, other than using it as a reference image as stated at the top of the RIL opening page.

Perhaps that particular paragraph could have words added to it that clearly state that images in the RIL are only to be used as reference images.

Just my 2 cents and they are worth everything you paid for them!

Lyn
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Old 09-18-2005, 07:17 PM
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Karen Cardinal Karen Cardinal is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpsinpuddles
I saw a commercial for a bottled water... It showed a bunch of grapes that were clear as if made out of water. i thought it would be neat to try to paint objects as if they were made of water.. It would give me practice painting clear things like glass... now taking that idea from the commercial... would that be legal to do? And again, not that i could or would now, but could something like that be sold?
Well there's a difference between being inspired by and copying. If you are inspired by the idea of objects made out of water... go for it! Just don't try to duplicate the images they used in the comercial. Make water-melons instead.

Lyn,
I agree with you that sharing our photos does not mean we give up our copyrights. I've have been a bit wary though simply because of this part...
Quote:
...the right to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display your image for any purpose

I would also feel much better if it was made clear that the photos are only to be used as references for artwork. That may just be me though.
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Old 09-18-2005, 10:27 PM
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Cardinal

...

Lyn,
I agree with you that sharing our photos does not mean we give up our copyrights. I've have been a bit wary though simply because of this part...


I would also feel much better if it was made clear that the photos are only to be used as references for artwork. That may just be me though.
No, it's not just you. I know of a number of folks who feel the same and consequently have stopped contributing to the RIL. But it certainly is good to read what Lyn pointed out.
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Old 09-19-2005, 09:47 AM
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Assuming the paragraph quoted is an accurate quote, since I haven't checked to find out:

What Lyn points out is very important. However, it is not the entire point of that paragraph.

The whole paragraph, as it now reads, leaves anyone who contributes photos to the Library open to having their photos used however someone wants to use them, wherever someone wants to use them, and for any purpose. As it clearlly states (emphasis is mine):

Quote:
By checking this box, you agree that you exclusively own the license to grant the general public the right to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display your image for any purpose. You understand you will be held liable if you upload images for which you do not own the copyright. You also agree that the image you are posting is a photograph and not a painting.

The rest of the paragraph is also important and I agree the wording emphasized below in the same paragraph makes sense:

Quote:
By checking this box, you agree that you exclusively own the license to grant the general public the right to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display your image for any purpose. You understand you will be held liable if you upload images for which you do not own the copyright. You also agree that the image you are posting is a photograph and not a painting.

It's the idea that photos contributed to the Library can be used by anyone, in any way, and for any purpose that would make me never consider contributing my own photos. It makes me wonder why anyone would want to contribute their photos if they took time to read that whole paragraph and think about what it says.

................
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Old 09-19-2005, 01:58 PM
Jin Jin is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Again, too late to edit my post above, I'll have to do it by quoting it instead.

After thinking about it a little longer, I realized what I said earlier isn't exactly true. Below parts of my quoted message, I'll type the changes I'd make to reflect what I now think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin

The whole paragraph, as it now reads, leaves anyone who contributes photos to the Library open to having their photos used however someone wants to use them, wherever someone wants to use them, and for any purpose. As it clearlly states (emphasis is mine):

I'd like to replace that paragraph with:

The whole paragraph, as it now reads, may lead people using the photos to believe they're given the right to use them however they want, wherever they want, and for any purpose. Because of this possiblity (even likelihood), the contributor of those photos is left wide open to having them used in ways they do not intend to have them used.

If the point of that part of the paragraph is to ensure the contributor understands they must be the copyright holder of the photos they contribute (copyright meaning they have the sole right to say how the photos may be used), it might be a whole lot more clear to both the contributor and user of those photos, and give more protection to the contributors of photos, to say something like this:

By checking this box, you agree that you exclusively own the license to grant use of the photos you contribute to members of WetCanvas! for [add here, the specific ways the photos may be used, and where they may be shown]. You understand you will be held liable if you upload images for which you do not own the copyright. You also agree that the image you are posting is a photograph and not a painting.

Quote:
It's the idea that photos contributed to the Library can be used by anyone, in any way, and for any purpose that would make me never consider contributing my own photos. It makes me wonder why anyone would want to contribute their photos if they took time to read that whole paragraph and think about what it says.

................

I'd like to change the above quoted paragraph to say....

It's the idea that people using photos contributed to the Library may be led to believe they can be used by anyone, in any way, and for any purpose that would make me never consider contributing my own photos. It makes me wonder why anyone would want to contribute their photos if they took time to read that whole paragraph and think about what people using photos may interpret it to be saying.

Bottom line:

If it's this confusing to all of us who are concentrating on the subject and discussing it now, surely it's no less confusing and easy to misinterpret for people who are simply wanting to contribute photos and are not focused on such details, trusting that if the Library has been a success for so long, everthing about it must be "OK".

.................
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Old 09-19-2005, 02:20 PM
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keustice keustice is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

I've updated the verbiage in question to reflect the thoughts in this thread. The important points to communicate, as I see it, are that users should only upload their own photographs and that people uploading photographs should know their photographs will be used as reference images by members of WetCanvas! in the creation of artwork.

Kerri
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Old 09-19-2005, 03:44 PM
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Karen Cardinal Karen Cardinal is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Quote:
By checking this box, you agree that you took the photograph yourself and own all rights to the photograph you are uploading. You understand you will be held liable if you upload images that are copyrighted by someone else. By submitting work to the Reference Image Library, you grant WetCanvas! members the right to create and sell artwork, (including paintings, sculpture, etc.), using your photograph as a reference image in the creation of the artwork. You also confirm that the image you are uploading is a photograph and not a painting.

Kerri, this is so clear and exactly what we've always thought the reference library was for.

Thank you so much for making the words fit our thoughts!
This is what WC is all about!
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Old 09-19-2005, 03:48 PM
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Hi Kerri,

It's important to distinguish between photos used for reference and photos that are copied. The latter is what I've seen most often. That is, people most often trace, then paint the photo, sometimes paint directly on the photo, and very often clone paint the photo. In all of these cases, the photo is being copied, not used for reference only.

Reference meaning the photo is used to see such things as lighting, perspective, color, possibly how a foot might be drawn at a certain angle, or sometimes to see how something looks that the artist could not draw or paint from life or from their own photos since that object doesn't exist where they live... , etc.

In other words, the artist refers to the photo for general information rather than using it as a base to copy or to paint over directly.

Anyone contributing a photo should be aware it may be used either way, or even in a collage or some other new artwork or part of an artwork.

Maybe a simple statement that the photo might, at the descretion of the user, be used to create a photo manipulation, painted copy, or a new piece of art would suffice.

Personally, I think it would be nice if photos contributed to the WetCanvas! Library were restricted to use and display only at WetCanvas! and on the user's personal website, if they choose to display it on their personal website.

A few years ago, I was considering using photos when teaching Painter classes, and where I might find enough good ones (considering I don't have much time to shoot my own, though that would be my preference).

I contacted an appropriate someone (don't recall the name but recall that his name was found in the Library section) here at WetCanvas! to ask if it would be OK to use photos from the WetCanvas! Library in my Painter classes, on my own message board.

Somewhere in the correspondence I asked if the donors of those photos would have any objection to my using them this way.

I wasn't at all sure I wanted to use WetCanvas! Library photos in any case, and didn't expect to receive the answer I did receive.

The answer was (paraphrased and abbreviated):

Of course you may use them since you're a member of WetCanvas!

I thanked whoever it was and, later, decided to follow my first instincts and not use WetCanvas! photos in my classes. It just didn't seem right somehow to be using photos people had contributed generously, probably thinking they would be used by WetCanvas! members... at WetCanvas!

.................
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Old 09-19-2005, 04:13 PM
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Karen Cardinal Karen Cardinal is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Hi Jin!

I think I get where you're coming from with trying to seperate things like collage or digital art from other art and saying photorealism is different from interpreting a photo.

I will agree with you to a point and I love discussing these things. (we've had many discussions on this).

For the purposes of this thread however I don't know if arguing how much change you have to make from the original photo for it to be considered your art, is the point. I've never seen two artist using the same ref photo create exactly the same work.
... I always feel sorry for digital artist because they seem to have the hardest time making people realize that they are painting an original work.

What I am concerned with (and others who I've talked to) is that we were granting people the licence to do anything they wanted to with our photos.

As far as keeping their artwork created from the photos confined to WC and their own site... I get thrilled when I see people winning awards with artwork created from one of our great photos! Since they own the copyright to their artwork, I don't think we could tell them what to do with it.

Just my humble opinion on the matter.
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Old 09-19-2005, 05:09 PM
Jin Jin is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Hi Karen,

Since I haven't and won't be contributing photos, I really don't have a right to say anything at all. The reason I do say things about this is that good people's wishes, and even their welfare, are at stake.

Besides, it bothers me a lot when an issue of copyright infringement comes up. That's what started this thread to begin with, the possibility of there having been copyright infringement.

Then we got into talking about how unclear the WetCanvas! agreement is and that led to another thing... and another..

As long as everyone involved is behaving well, there's no reason to limit how and where photos are used. Unfortunately, not all people do behave as they should.

Anyway... I need to get back to my own business for a change, interesting though this discussion has been. I'll probably peek in now and then to see what develops.

Best wishes to all!
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Old 09-19-2005, 05:18 PM
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

As a guy who takes his own photos--let me say that I concur with Karen on one important point. I recently had an artist contact me to use one of my tree photos in an international contest--she did an outstanding job and let me tell you it really gave me an ego boost.

I think that the image library is like the garden of eden. We are all here to enjoy the fruits of everyone's work. Naturally. If someone abuses the good will of WC what happens--especiially in the light of anything that might result in pending litigation.

Having a password protected systems insures that the administration has some sort of consequence that can be used in the case of serious abuse. It is a sensible protective notion that still allows ALL members to benefit whether they are contributors or not. If someone's activities are in question, by the way, then you can simply suspend access into that section without suspending membership. It is a discreet way to quietly handle a problem. If the person has, in fact, done nothing then simply lift the suspension. No one else has to know except Admin and that preserves the member's dignity and privacy.
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Old 09-19-2005, 05:51 PM
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Many people like to use images of places and things they themselves may not have had the opportunity to visit or see in their locale.

Beginners may try to "copy" what they see in the photos, but, as said ^^^ and often shown in the Watercolor Forum threads where several artists use the same photo reference to do a painting, no two paintings are the same even when done from the same reference.

People who use the Image Library reference photos and intend to enter their art work in a competition should carefully read the rules though. Several competitions I've seen recently say the art work must be completely that of the artist—including the reference.

Sylvia
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Old 09-19-2005, 07:54 PM
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Quote:
Originally Posted by krystakaye
I was able to get onto the site-I searched for any photos I have used that may be there and there were several (by several different photographers) that had been posted in the Reference Library under the person in question. I don't want to imply anyone's innocense or guilt, I just want to cover myself and see if I can use the rightful owner's photos as references or do I need to distroy all of the canvases.

This is quite disheartening and I have just started painting in May. I can only imagine the impact of those who in good faith have sold some works and now thier reputation is on the line as well.

I am concerned about these threads that can be searched by google and others can see that we have used thier references to paint from, even though in good faith, any of us who have used them have our reputations on the line-not to mention the possible expense of proving we didn't know that the photos may not have belonged to the person in question. I would really like to see all of the threads with any of my paintings from any of those references deleted as I am planning to destroy all that I don't get permission to use. Just to keep any other photographers seeing thier work displayed without previous permission- prior to our knowledge.

I am to the point right now that I am afraid to post anything with any reference material used.

I have tried to be so careful to get prior permission and then to send my paintings (or links to threads) to the person who allowed me to use thier references. I have always taken copyright to heart and seriously. I just get sick to my stomach thinking about it.

DISHEARTENED,
Krysta Kaye


Guess I'm a lucky one. I'm such a rank beginner the vast majority of my stuff is from WDE. I don't recognize the RIL photo in question.

My concern is destruction of canvases. As I understand it, a person is free to paint, for personal use, anything. As I understand it, a problem only crops up if they try to sell it. Am I correct in this understanding, or not?

Thank you.
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Old 09-19-2005, 08:25 PM
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

Thanks, Kerri, for clarifying the statement.

Lyn
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Old 09-19-2005, 09:29 PM
Jin Jin is offline
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Re: Reference Image Library Violation

stoney,

Selling a painting based on someone else's art or photo is not the only way to infringe copyrights.

For one example, a website can be shut down for displaying art based on other art or photos for which the copying artist is not the copyright holder and for which they do not have prior written permission to use the art or photo in that specific manner.

There's more to the story, and you can read about it at the U.S. Copyright Office website at:

http://www.copyright.gov/
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