Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting The Technical Forum Ink with oilacrylic fat over lean??

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  • #992418
    John Stirrips
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        Hi everyone.

        I’ve recently tried starting a couple of paintings (which will eventually become oil paintings, as that is my usual/favorite medium) using ink to put down an initial line drawing. I haven’t used ink for ages and it was nice to enjoy its unpredictableness again.

        Anyway, often when I paint in oils, I first tone the canvas (a standard pre gessoed canvas bought from an art shop)with acrylic color. Sometimes I apply the acrylic color opaquely and sometimes I apply it as a wash.

        Anyway with the recent one I’ve started, I’ve just gone straight in and done a line drawing in ink on a BLANK WHITE canvas. But I want to apply an acrylic wash before I apply the oil.

        Now this is my question: Is it ok to paint acrylic on top of ink??
        I know that you CAN’T paint acrylic on oil. And I feel reasonably confident that painting oil on top of ink is safe. But ink does have a slightly viscous quality and I’m wondering if painting acrylic on top of it is likely to cause any trouble as time goes by??

        Also, while on the subject. As I mentioned, I’m working on a canvas that was pre primed already when I bought it from the art shop. Suitable for acrylic or oil. Is there any potential problem applying ink to such a canvas. I was just thinking because of the extremely liquid/runny/drippy/seepy (can’t think of a better word sorry) nature of ink, I was wondering if there is any potential for it to just seep through the gesso and rot the canvas??

        If anyone has any knowledge/advice on either of these two matters I would love to hear it. I’m going to continue with the painting anyway, coz its fun. But just want to know if there are any risks involved, just in case I end up doing a whole lot of paintings in this way, and if I were to sell any.

        Thanks everyone,

        John.

        #1214422
        Gigalot
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            Use artist’s acrylic ink. This ink is 100% compatible with art materials. Do not bleed, do not delaminate. It is compatible with acrylic because it is acrylic. It is safe to contact with canvas fiber because it has basic PH.

            According to Golden, you are breaking “fat over lean rule” using oil paint on top of acrylic. I hate this idea, but I can do nothing with this fact, and agree :evil: Mandrel flexibility tests result:

            Acrylic over acrylic gesso – do not crack ever!
            Oil paint film – 10 mm
            Alkyd over Alkyd – 1 mm
            acrylic over Alkyd – 4 mm.

            So, acrylic is 100% flexible and no crack (thanks to modern chemistry!) :D
            Oil paint is 10 times less flexible than Alkyd
            Acrylic over Alkyd is two times more flexible than oil paint film and four times less flexible than pure Alkyd on Alkyd.

            According these tests, if fattest oil has 100% flexibility, than Alkyd paint has 1000% flexibility and therefore is 1000% Fat. :confused: :eek: While acrylic can be hypothetically 100000% fat or even million fat percentage. But, sadly, acrylic over alkyd is only 400% fat. :cool:

            #1214416

            Now this is my question: Is it ok to paint acrylic on top of ink??

            yes it is absolutely fine.

            And I feel reasonably confident that painting oil on top of ink is safe

            this is also fine.

            I’m working on a canvas that was pre primed already when I bought it from the art shop. Suitable for acrylic or oil. Is there any potential problem applying ink to such a canvas.

            no problem at all.

            According to Golden, you are breaking “fat over lean rule” using oil paint on top of acrylic.

            This doesn’t make any sense- there are some who say not to put oil over acrylic but it has nothing to do with fat over lean…acrylic is always “lean” as there is no fat (oil) in it to begin with. You may have delamination/adhesion issues but you probably will not. Many people use acrylic under oil with no problem.

            Lady Mars Orange Marmalade Stapleford
            Moderator: OIls, Pastels, Plein Air

            Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. -Oscar Wilde

            #1214420
            llawrence
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                This doesn’t make any sense- there are some who say not to put oil over acrylic but it has nothing to do with fat over lean…acrylic is always “lean” as there is no fat (oil) in it to begin with.

                When I’ve heard or read that opinion, I believe the point has been that acrylic remains more flexible than oil paint over the long haul – and if you think of ‘fat over lean’ as ‘more flexible over less flexible’, as some do, why then you’ve violated that rule by putting oil over acrylic.

                Note, that’s not my belief. But I think that’s what people mean when they say it.

                #1214417

                Thanks for the clarification, and yes that does make sense. I would agree that an acrylic paint film is definitely more flexible than an oil paint film. :)

                Acrylic, however (correct me if I am wrong?) does not expand and contract in a prolonged drying process, is that taken into consideration in the fat over lean reasoning?

                Lady Mars Orange Marmalade Stapleford
                Moderator: OIls, Pastels, Plein Air

                Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. -Oscar Wilde

                #1214419
                Don Ketchek
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                    Golden’s paper on the subject of oil over acrylic can be found here:

                    http://justpaint.org/archive/jp24article2.php

                    Their conclusion is that it is OK to paint oil over acrylic and fears to the contrary are overblown.

                    Don

                    #1214423
                    Gigalot
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                        “acrylic primings reduced the amount of cracking in the alkyd top layers, appearing to retard their normal brittle behavior.”
                        So, flexible underlayer can reduce total cracking process into alkyd and oil paint upper layers. Less flexible paint layer over more flexible substrate is recommended by Golden. But “fat over lean” rule recommends to do completely opposite things. To make paint as brittle as possible for underlayer by adding solvent and using low oil content mediums. Something like “Lean paint medium – 1 part oil + 5 parts turpentine”. I am right?
                        A question is: – which advice is more trusted, Golden recommendation to make more flexible underlayers or “Fat over Lean” recommendation to make less flexible underlayrs? :confused:
                        I think, Golden idea looks more attractive for me!

                        #1214418

                        But doesn’t it have more to do with how the paint dries? A flexible acrylic underlayer dries rapidly and doesn’t undergo further changes.

                        We know that oil paint, though it may be touch dry, is still undergoing a drying process and the layers are subject to expand and contract. Which makes sense for fat over lean oil layers.

                        I also do not think acrylic underlayers are worth worrying about.

                        Lady Mars Orange Marmalade Stapleford
                        Moderator: OIls, Pastels, Plein Air

                        Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. -Oscar Wilde

                        #1214424
                        Gigalot
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                            But doesn’t it have more to do with how the paint dries? A flexible acrylic underlayer dries rapidly and doesn’t undergo further changes.

                            Agree. Acrylic dries and set during one month, modern research says six month to set, to shrink and to cross-link between polymer molecules. I took more care about first one month when it can shrink significantly (that depends of acrylic quality)…:) I hope, most canvases in art stores are preprimed and well dried.

                            Oil paint dries more than 3 years, it is still soft and flexible enough after one year, which is seems to be safe on acrylic gesso.
                            I am still not sure about using “one part oil +five parts turpentine” mediums. A very risky stuff for me. More or less, I can agree to use 50/50 mixtures. :angel:

                            #1214421
                            John Stirrips
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                                Thanks everybody for your advice and input.

                                Much appreciated!

                                John.

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