New brand of watercolor -- Shin Han PWC -- ?

[cliftonprince]

Not sure what the question is, about Ult with DS or Shin Han. You've got plenty of info to go on, there, and I suggest that you definitely know a lot more about it than I do.

I'm just wondering what the catch is with the Shin Han PWC. At these low low prices, the only thing that's driving me to consider buying any other brand ever again would be the weird-o pigments and the multiple-pigment colors in many places in their listings. As long as the pigment that I want is available in the Shin Han PWC as a solo-pigment tube, I'm thinking, shouldn't I always buy the Shin Han PWC and not anyone else's? Why or why not? What's the catch?

[cliftonprince]

Originally Posted by D'Lady

That can also be a problem with paper wetness. If it's just "damp" the brush will move or remove paint instead of putting more down. Sometimes I get paper with blotchy sizing that causes an area to be more or less wet than other areas, and usually results in a blotchy area where paint either moved to form a darker area, or lifted off to leave one that's noticeably lighter.

Yeah, I know the wetness issue you're mentioning there, but, that's not exactly what I'm referring to, with the "greasy moment" description. Sorry I can't nail it down by describing it a bit better. But, it's not something that my new Shin Han paints did anyway, so it's not really necessary to pin it down. If you really REALLY need to know (and why would you?), then, here's the experiment you can do (or imagine doing): go out and buy a tube of Sennelier Terre verte Naturelle (their paint #213) with PBr7 in it, and paint a straight-from-the-tube line of it onto a dry patch of paper. Then try to wet and spread it. Basically, try to make a swatch that demonstrates the paint's range of value and pigmentation, by pulling the thick mass-tone line of pure paint down into a puddle of water and make a gradated wash of it. You'll see that the paint has a "greasy moment" right at the first edge of water, where the mass-tone paint resists dissolution and does strange counter-intuitive dances against the usual behavior of most watercolors. Maybe the tube has extra anti-dispersant in it? I dunno. Anyhoo ... not necessary to belabor it so ... horse dead ...

[crissy_ps]

Originally Posted by cliftonprince

Not sure what the question is, about Ult with DS or Shin Han. You've got plenty of info to go on, there, and I suggest that you definitely know a lot more about it than I do.

I'm just wondering what the catch is with the Shin Han PWC. At these low low prices, the only thing that's driving me to consider buying any other brand ever again would be the weird-o pigments and the multiple-pigment colors in many places in their listings. As long as the pigment that I want is available in the Shin Han PWC as a solo-pigment tube, I'm thinking, shouldn't I always buy the Shin Han PWC and not anyone else's? Why or why not? What's the catch?

I’m thinking the same! My main worry is that it will ruin my other paints with fillers. But looking on the black paper sedimentation test I can’t see that Shinhan contains a lot more fillers than other brands. I tried Lukas 1862 once, which is also cheap comparing to other brands, but that contained a lot of weird particles and to me they looked chalky. So I don’t use them anymore. But Shinhan don’t seem so chalky. I guess my question is if Shinhan seems chalky to you and if you can see a big difference from the comparisons in my previous post.

And I only use Shinhan PWC the highest grade.

[cliftonprince]

I'll keep the question of chalkiness in mind as I try them out. In fact, I've just gone through their brochure and determined: (1) a large number are mixed-pigment tubes; or (2) highly fugitive (esp the B fluorescence ones); or (3) unnecessary for my own current collection; but (4) some others offer novel pigments which don't seem readily available elsewhere (though perhaps merely of passable lightfastness) --

PO16 benzidine orange = either Vermilion Hue or Brilliant Orange
PV3 methyl violet tannate = Permanent Violet
PY81 diarylide yellow H10G = Lemon Yellow
PY83 diarylide yellow HR = Permanent Yellow Deep
PY183 paliotol yellow = Indian Yellow

And some of these highly fugitive weirdos might nevertheless be fun

PG8 nitroso-naphthol iron green = either Sap Green or Hooker's Green
PR83 true alizarin crimson = either Crimson Lake or Carmine
PY1 arylide yellow = Permanent Yellow Light

Research into these pigments shows me various statements that many were out of production at the time a given website was most recently updated. Interesting twist to the "what's the catch?" investigation.

So, that's my potential shopping list, no promises I'll go buy them immediately but maybe as time progresses and the itch starts to scratch at my wallet again ...

[cliftonprince]

Just noticed a couple of oddities as I go more carefully over the Shin Han PWC dot-card (which my MOST AWESOMELY EXCELLENT local brick-and-mortar gave me for free, David Art on Arnoult in Metairie near New Orleans, no I don't work for them).

1. What gives with alizarin crimson?

They replaced it, but they didn't. Or did they? We know that the true alizarin crimson pigment PR83 is lovely but fugitive:
http://www.artiscreation.com/red.html
https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterr.html
Shin Han uses fugitive PR83 in several PWC paints -- Crimson Lake, Carmine, and Rose Madder are all single-pigment tubes of it; Brown Madder mixes PR83 with PY83. Plus, the PWC line offers a tube labeled Alizarin Crimson, which does NOT contain PR83. "Nice," you may think, "Shin Han provides a hue of alizarin crimson, because the real stuff is known to be fugitive." At first this all seems quite sensible of Shin Han. But, then you learn, they replace PR83 with PR23, which is merely another fugitive pigment. Whereas most manufacturers replace fugitive true alizarin crimson with something more lightfast when making an alizarin crimson hue, Shin Han replaces it with something equally fugitive and, to boot, fails to label it as a "hue." Umm, then, why replace it at all? It says Alizarin Crimson, it's not alizarin crimson, and it's not lightfast either. They rate all paints mentioned here as either "High" or "Normal" in lightfastness, questionable given that the pigments themselves are not. This whole alizarin situation makes me ask of Shin Han PWC, yet again, "what's the catch?" I remain skeptical.

2. What gives with Viridian?

They use it, but they don't. Or do they? We know that Viridian PG18 rests very close on the color wheel to Phthalo Green Blue Shade PG7.
https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterg.html
http://www.artiscreation.com/green.html
See this color wheel https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/IMG/intstud19bL.gif to compare just how close PG18 and PG7 fall on the wheel. Shin Han makes a not-uncommon choice, offering (and, this time, truthfully labeling as Hue) a version of viridian not made of viridian pigment, but of its neighbor. "Nice," you may at first think, "they've made sure I know that Viridian Hue doesn't offer PG18 by tipping me off with the word 'hue'." True, but not helpful, because another paint labeled simply Viridian, without the 'hue' word, similarly contains zero PG18, only PG7. The Viridian Hue and the Viridian are both single-pigment tubes of PG7. So, why offer a label claiming to be the real stuff when it's not, especially when you already have a replacement that claims it's a replacement? There are a few other PG7 paints -- a few mixtures, and two Permanent Greens -- but there is no PG18 offered. Can it be merely for pricing? The stuff labeled as though it is real Viridian sells at middle-range of their five grades; the stuff marked clearly as Hue sells at cheapest.

"What gives?" Haven't figured it out. Maybe, it's a gap in communication or expectation somewhere. I'm almost tempted to suggest that they lack adequate translation services; or, that their printed brochures and labels are wildly inaccurate to the real contents of their paints due merely to mistakes in a printing house that's unfamiliar with Western European letter-forms.

I dunno. I look forward to further discussion. Meanwhile I'm trying them out from the dot-card. The four purely PG7 paints are mildly different from one another, though the Viridian and Viridian Hue seem to me identical. Honestly, they should be.

Quotes from the dot-card and brochure:
"CRIMSON LAKE PR83 ...
ALIZARIN CRIMSON PR23 ...
CARMINE PR83 ...
VIRIDIAN PG7 ...
VIRIDIAN HUE PG7"

But nota bene

PG7 = phthalo green blue shade
PG18 = viridian
PR23 = naphthol carmine (fugitive)
PR83 = alizarin crimson (fugitive)

[cliftonprince]

At the risk of belaboring (now having replied to myself three times in a row with nobody else interceding), I'd like to let y'all know that I just bought a 15 ml tube in each of Brilliant Orange PO16 and Hooker's Green PG8 (amazingly inexpensive!) and will be trying them out soon.

[crissy_ps]

Yeah I also noticed that weird Viridian thing. So I haven’t tried those two. Instead I decided to make my palett of other paints with high lightfastness/ single pigment. (2 or 3 stars, known pigments) I am making a mixing chart at the moment and I will post it when done. So far I haven’t noticed any “chalkiness”. The paints with transparent pigments feel transparent and the more opaque are opaque so I guess that’s good.

And although the PY83 Perm yellow deep, also only has two stars I looooove it. At handprint it says it is almost duochrome, and it is. In mixes it makes a lovely yellow undertone that I adore.
So whats the catch then? They are cheap, they are good quality, except for some naming and pigment issues. I don’t know about the lightfastness, but I am testning them tight now so we’ll see
Could it be poor work conditions? Or are western brands just expensive?

Anyhow. I will use Shinhan for practice and sketchbook. Because DS and WN are so expensive I will use them for art that I might sell.

Looking forward to reading your conclusion/ review.

Hasta la vista

[crissy_ps]

Ah except for the Shinhan Ultramarine Deep. I love that one so I will use it together with my DS and WN.

[crissy_ps]

Here it is, the mixing chart

I painted it on the back of an Arches 300 gsm CP. it is not perfect though...
but I must say I really really like some of the colors I was able to get.

[cliftonprince]

Very nice chart. I am attracted to the PY83 as well ... that may be my next experiment.

In painting a swatch of Brilliant Orange PO16 I do notice some small amount of "chalkiness". Maybe it's just opacity. You can see it clearly in the second and third images below.

The official lightfastness test has started for Brilliant Orange PO16 and Hooker's Green PG8 from Shin Han PWC. They label the orange as transparent and 3 out of maximum 3 stars lightfastness (hence, totally permanent); the green as transparent and 2 out of 3 lightfastness stars (medium). I painted my swatches with paint directly from the tube today (November 15, 2019) and placed them in a south-facing window at about noontime (New Orleans, USA, Central Time Zone, on whichever version of daylight savings or not savings we're supposed to be on for this particular date).

The "attachments" pictures below to this post demonstrate my procedure. I reduced a bit Bruce MacEvoy's suggestions at https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt9.html . To affix, I "stuck down" swatches onto a background page instead of his suggested painting directly onto the mounted page; to block light, I wrapped tin-foil directly onto the swatches instead of his suggested reversed adhesive foil tape on the back of the glass; no other major departures.

Please also recognize I have performed almost NO image-manipulation. I only changed the original phone-camera JPG pictures by (1) reducing their memory-size and dimensions to within WetCanvas's maximums, and by (2) saving them as GIF images. So, color fidelity will be extremely low.

Call me in March or April ...

[crissy_ps]

I can definately see that brilliant orange opacity, which is dissapointing since it’s supposed to be transparent. Well, it will be interesting to see the results. I also have some samples that I’m testing at the moment, PY83 being one of them. Until then! :-D