Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting The Technical Forum Odors of WMOs?

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  • #994657
    Saluki
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        My wife frowns on my using traditional oils during the winter – she says the odor of the paints bother her (I, on the other hand, rather like the distinctive smell of oils). What about using water-mixable oils? Do these have the same odor as traditional oils? Or are they closer to using water colors or gouache as far as the smell goes?

        #1261824
        Don Ketchek
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            Most of the smell with oil painting comes from the solvents used, as I’m sure you know, although the paint itself may have a slight odor due to whatever oil the binder is. Many folks say the smell of the oil can become more pronounced as that binding oil gets older – and possibly even rancid (doesn’t affect the painting process). The mediums used – if they contain solvent – would also contribute to the smell of traditional oil painting. The WMOs should be similar – although some brands do have more odor – possibly due to whatever substance is added to make them Water Miscible. I have a few tubes of Daniel Smith WMOs that smell more than my Cobras. But in general, they are oil paint so should smell like oil paint – but they won’t smell less. They would not be like watercolor or gouache. If you live near an art store that sells any WMOs, the easiest thing to do is take off the cap and take a whiff of a few tubes.

            Don

            #1261843
            Saluki
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                Thanks very much. I’m hoping that by using the WMOs this winter and avoiding the use of traditional solvents – especially those that are turpentine-based – I’ll be able to paint in oils without annoying my wife (well, not as much, anyway :) ).

                #1261837
                Michael Lion
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                    Well I respectfully disagree with DAK’s answer.

                    Solvents, if you are using the right ones, are pretty odorless and can’t really be detected unless you stick your nose into the jar. Turpenoid and Gamsol fall into this category.

                    Oil paints smell like oil, linseed oil has an especially strong smell for a vegetable oil. WMOs have the same smell.

                    Additionally, Artisan WMOs have an unpleasant chemical smell if you put your nose up to it. I presume that this is one of the added ingredients used to make the paint water miscible. Holbein Duo Aqua doesn’t have that smell.

                    Best way to reduce the odor of oil paint is to use safflower-oil based paints, as safflower oil has a milder smell than linseed. (Walnut oil also has a milder smell than linseed oil, and there’s one brand of paints that uses walnut oil.)

                    Here’s my list of affordable non-linseed-oil paints

                    Holbein (except for black)
                    Sennelier/Blick Arists (except for black)
                    M Graham (all walnut oil)
                    Winsor & Newton Artists: SOME colors use safflower oil, some use linseed, check the label.

                    #1261832
                    Gigalot
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                        Most of non-chemists people are sure that oil paint have solvent odor and, therefore, solvent-free paint have no odor. I can say, that they are totally wrong. Solvent free paint have solvent-free odor. Solvents are just demonized by spontaneously developed non-chemists propaganda and solvent-free stuff became an advertised, modern fashion in painting technology.

                        You can continue to trust non-chemist ignorants or you can read scientific articles in oil drying chemistry (no reason if you are not a chemist).
                        If you are really sensitive to oil drying fumes, it might be better to switch to watercolor or coloured pencils.
                        If you are sensitive to Mineral Spirit odor, then try other solvent or pure oil instead.

                        #1261844
                        Saluki
                        Default

                            If you are sensitive to Mineral Spirit odor, then try other solvent or pure oil instead.

                            Using other media is really not the question, as I already work in watercolors, gouache, acrylic, and color pencil.
                            I myself don’t mind the odor of traditional oil paints – it’s my wife who does and says they give her headaches – thus my query concerning the WMOs.

                            #1261838
                            Michael Lion
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                                Using other media is really not the question, as I already work in watercolors, gouache, acrylic, and color pencil.
                                I myself don’t mind the odor of traditional oil paints – it’s my wife who does and says they give her headaches – thus my query concerning the WMOs.

                                I think that a lot of the headaches are psychological. They think that oil paints are really really dangerous to breath in, and then they smell linseed oil (which is an edible oil made from flax seeds, and flax seeds can be found in your supermarket), and they imagine they have a headache (which is all in the head anyiway).

                                #1261825
                                Don Ketchek
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                                    Thanks very much. I’m hoping that by using the WMOs this winter and avoiding the use of traditional solvents – especially those that are turpentine-based – I’ll be able to paint in oils without annoying my wife (well, not as much, anyway :) ).

                                    If you are using turpentine based solvents – or mediums with turpentine or non-odorless mineral sprits, then, yes, there will be much more odor with traditional oils – provided that you don’t use those solvents or mediums with your WMOs. As Michael mentioned, another alternative would be to use Odorless Mineral Spirits.

                                    The comment that your wife’s headaches are psychological is totally uncalled for. If you are using solvents such as turpentine, then you need very good ventilation – and even then, the potential adverse health affects of turpentine are well known. For health reasons, many folks now advise using odorless mineral spirits instead of turpentine. You can also paint solvent free with traditional oils. But it is easier to paint solvent free with WMOs.

                                    Here’s an article that may be of interest if you are using turpentine.

                                    Turpentine and Substitutes
                                    By Michael McCann, Ph.D., C.I.H.

                                    Turpentine is the classic solvent used by artists in oil painting and for clean-up. There are two basic types of turpentine: gum turpentine, distilled from the sap of pine trees; and wood turpentine, distilled from the pine wood. While wood turpentine is more hazardous than gum turpentine, both types are highly toxic by inhalation and skin absorption. Acute health effects include eye, nose, and throat irritation, narcosis (headaches, dizziness, nausea, confusion, rapid pulse), and at high levels, difficulty in breathing, kidney and bladder damage, convulsions, and possibly death. Chronic health effects include skin irritation and allergies, kidney and bladder damage, and nervous system damage.

                                    I have seen many cases of allergic reactions and several cases of severe kidney damage in artists using turpentine. As a result, I recommend substituting safer solvents for turpentine.

                                    The general turpentine substitute is mineral spirits (paint thinner, turpenoid, Varsol, Stoddard Solvent). Standard mineral spirits can contain about 15-20% aromatic hydrocarbons, giving mineral spirits their distinctive odor. The aromatic hydrocarbons are also the most toxic component. Acute health effects include eye, nose and throat irritation, and at high levels, dizziness, lightheadness, nausea, etc. Chronic health effects include skin irritation (but not allergies), and brain damage from long-term exposure to large amounts. Mineral spirits are not absorbed through the skin. In general, mineral spirits are less toxic than turpentine.

                                    An even safer substitute are odorless (or deodorized) mineral spirits or paint thinner. The more toxic aromatic hydrocarbons have been reduced or removed, hence the milder odor. Since turpentine evaporates more quickly than mineral spirits, hazardous, high concentrations are achieved more quickly with turpentine than with mineral spirits. Turpentine is also more flammable than mineral spirits. Turpentine has a flash point of 95 F, meaning that enough vapors can form at this temperature to catch fire if a source of ignition is present. Mineral spirits, on the other hand, have a flash point over 100 F.

                                    In conclusion, mineral spirits (especially the odorless type) are preferred over turpentine because of lower toxicity, lower volatility, and lower flammability.

                                    Art Hazard News, Volume 11, No. 9, 1988

                                    This article was originally printed for Art Hazard News, © copyright Center for Safety in the Arts 1988. It appears on CAR courtesy of the Health in the Arts Program, University of Illinois at Chicago, who have curated a collection of these articles from their archive which are still relevant to artists today.

                                    Don

                                    #1261839
                                    Michael Lion
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                                        The comment that your wife’s headaches are psychological is totally uncalled for.

                                        Not uncalled for. Of course people can have health problems caused by a lot of different things, but I am absolutely certain that a large percentage of oil-painting-caused headaches are nocebo effects. Nocebo effects are well documented.

                                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

                                        There’s an easy way to see if there’s a nocebo effect. Without telling your wife, secretly sprinkle some odorless mineral spirits around… at least as much as would evaporate if you were painting, and and see if your wife gets a headache from it.

                                        #1261827
                                        Anonymous

                                            Here’s my list of affordable non-linseed-oil paints

                                            Holbein (except for black)
                                            Sennelier/Blick Arists (except for black)
                                            M Graham (all walnut oil)
                                            Winsor & Newton Artists: SOME colors use safflower oil, some use linseed, check the label.

                                            Holbein Duo Aqua oil paints are linssed oil based. Quote from Holbein’s site:

                                            DUO offers 100 highly pigmented Artist Grade Colors suspended in a water soluble cold pressed linseed oil.

                                            Traditional Holbein oil paints have always been touted as using cold pressed linseed oil (ala Old Holland, who they are patterned after and try to compete with), and I believe they still use cold pressed linseed for the colors, but not with their whites.
                                            My Holbeins all have a typical strong linseed oil smell, but I have a number of colors, and do not have a white. I do remember when their site stated that they used cold pressed linseed for the traditional oils. Their current site says that their whites are made with poppy oil, and a less expensive Permanent White EX that uses safflower oil. The MSDS for their oil paints lists linseed and poppy, and a polymerized linseed oil:

                                            Raw or polymerised Linseed oil or Poppy oil

                                            and

                                            Flash Point : 306 ゚ C (As Linseed Oil.

                                            I don’t know which ones use the polymerized linseed, but it may be added to some that need to be thickened, but I do not know that, just guessing.

                                            #1261840
                                            Michael Lion
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                                                Holbein Duo Aqua oil paints are linssed oil based. Quote from Holbein’s site:

                                                My nose knows otherwise. The labels are in Japanese which I can’t read, but I know when I don’t spell linseed oil.

                                                Holbein may be like Winsor & Newton in that they use different oils for different colors of paints, with many of the lighter colors having poppy or safflower oil and the darker colors having linseed oil.

                                                But I can’t read the labels.

                                                #1261828
                                                Anonymous

                                                    My nose knows otherwise. The labels are in Japanese which I can’t read, but I know when I don’t spell linseed oil.

                                                    Holbein may be like Winsor & Newton in that they use different oils for different colors of paints, with many of the lighter colors having poppy or safflower oil and the darker colors having linseed oil.

                                                    But I can’t read the labels.

                                                    They don’t have to state the binder used on the labels.
                                                    No company of Holbein’s ilk is going to balantly lie about the binder they are using and they have absolutely no reason to make such an absurd claim, if it was a false claim. We have smelled linseed oil, but you have never smelled Holbein’s patented water soluble cold pressed linseed oil until you smelled a tube of Duo oils. The most you can accurately say is that you don’t know what oils they use. To claim that you know for sure is presumptuous.

                                                    #1261841
                                                    Michael Lion
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                                                        They don’t have to state the binder used on the labels.
                                                        No company of Holbein’s ilk is going to balantly lie about the binder they are using and they have absolutely no reason to make such an absurd claim, if it was a false claim. We have smelled linseed oil, but you have never smelled Holbein’s patented water soluble cold pressed linseed oil until you smelled a tube of Duo oils. The most you can accurately say is that you don’t know what oils they use. To claim that you know for sure is presumptuous.

                                                        My apologies, I was partially wrong.

                                                        I do have Holbein Aqua Duo paints, and I just smelled a bunch of tubes.

                                                        The following tubes did not have any linseed oil smell:

                                                        Titanium white
                                                        Grey of grey
                                                        Cerulean Blue Hue
                                                        Cadmium Yellow

                                                        The following tubes DID have a linseed oil smell:

                                                        Ivory black
                                                        Spinel black
                                                        Ultramarine Blue Deep
                                                        Phthalo Green
                                                        Rose Violet
                                                        Yellow Ochre

                                                        And then I got bored sniffing paints.

                                                        The trend is that light colors, and mixes that contain titanium white, use some other oil besides linseed, probably safflower, could be poppy.

                                                        Unfortunately the labels are in Japanese.

                                                        btw, Aqua Duo are great paints, just like artist-quality oil paints, way ahead of Artisan or Grumbacher Max (the only other two brands I tried). But a little on the expensive side.

                                                        If only they had grey mixes like Gamblin Portland Greys, I’d probably just use them instead of regular oils, because it just makes it easier to clean the brushes.

                                                        The Grey of Grey is a bad substitute for Portland Grey, it’s a transparent grey with a yellow undertone, not an opaque neutral grey like I was expecting it to be.

                                                        #1261829
                                                        Anonymous

                                                            Smelling isn’t a very reliable benchmark, often different pigments can smell enough to offset the odor.

                                                            #1261842
                                                            Michael Lion
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                                                                Smelling isn’t a very reliable benchmark, often different pigments can smell enough to offset the odor.

                                                                While I agree that advanced chemical testing would be more reliable, I think I’m pretty good at picking up the scent of linseed oil, and what I smelled is consistent with a philosophy shared with Winsor & Newton, which is that light colors more sensitive to the yellowing of linseed oil should not be made with linseed oil, but that linseed oil is best for dark colors.

                                                                And since I now agree that many tubes of Holbein DO smell like linseed oil, and if the OP is trying to do odor-free oil painting, then Holbein isn’t the right choice.

                                                                Although personally, I kind of like the smell of linseed oil, it reminds me of oil paintings which is something I like. But the OP says his wife complains that the smell of oil paints gives her a headache, so he should avoid linseed oil.

                                                                People jump to the conclusion that solvents are giving her headaches, but that really needs to be tested.

                                                                1. Paint without solvents (don’t open any solvent in the house, use only oil for a medium, afterwards clean brushes with detergent and water). See if wife gets headache.

                                                                2. Sprinkle some odorless solvent in the house. Don’t tell wife. See if wife gets headache.

                                                                It’s important to do this to isolate what’s causing the headache.

                                                                If it turns out that #2 causes a headache and not #1, then WMOs are definitely the solution to the problem. And I’d highly recommend the Holbein WMOs in that case, they are very good paints.

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