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  #46   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-07-2004, 07:56 PM
henrik henrik is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

henrik as moderator: I am not going to allow this debate to continue in this thread - the two sides had one round each. If you like to continue the general debate on the validity of having any "rules" this it is fine, but not in this thread about Johannes landscape composition article.

Last edited by henrik : 12-07-2004 at 07:58 PM.
  #47   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-08-2004, 05:27 AM
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King Rundzap King Rundzap is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Originally Posted by henrik
Although I don't think this is the right place to have a debate about composition (love to continue this elsewhere) -

I agree, and that wasn't the point. The point is to comment on the article in question, in the context of all of the praise it is receiving in the thread. It's just another critique in the thread, albeit not as positive a critique.

I think what we are trying to preach in this forum is that the so called "rules" are not absolutes and does not tell you right from wrong -

Although the article constantly says "correct", "incorrect", etc. next to images. So it's a bit of a double message, isn't it? I think that not only are they not absolutes, but the suggestions presented in the article, appear to me to be completely arbitrary. That was the main point of my post.

they do however point out consequences of certain design decisions and what you may want to do if you do not like the effect.

Consequences for whom though? Not for my interpretation as a viewer. And not for anyone else that I know personally. The second point in my post above is that maybe the arbitrary suggestions have to be learned--they're perhaps not "natural reactions", and as such, should we really be praising them so vehemently?

For instance; say that you have a dualism in your design where both shapes have equal visual weight. This typically leads to a ping-pong effect.
Do you want the effect - keep it - else don't.

For me, it doesn't lead to any "ping pong effect", and I'm skeptical it does for anyone else, either, unless they've been "socialized into the cult", so to speak. It's not a debate about composition in general, but a critique about this particular article, in a thread that is primarily (positive) critiques of the article.
  #48   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-08-2004, 05:38 AM
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King Rundzap King Rundzap is offline
New York City
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Posts: 1,137
Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Originally Posted by henrik
henrik as moderator: I am not going to allow this debate to continue in this thread - the two sides had one round each. If you like to continue the general debate on the validity of having any "rules" this it is fine, but not in this thread about Johannes landscape composition article.

I couldn't agree more. We should stick to comments about this article in this thread, whether they be positive or negative towards the article.

I'll answer dudleyd's comments about other topics in another thread.
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Old 12-11-2004, 02:17 PM
bigflea bigflea is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Too much emphasis on picture making rules, and not enough on principles underlying composition. I am sure some of these are helpful as tips and guidelines for making pictures "better", however there are also many erroneous and contradictory ideas especially in regard to the use of color and value. Sound composition comes from an understanding of the relationship of the abstract elements of design and how they interact within the pictorial format, and from the painter's ability to see or perceive hue relationships that are not visually obvious to the non painter. The author dismisses the possibility that increased perception of color distinctions changes the way composition is approached and solved.
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:32 PM
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JKM JKM is offline
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Tasmania, Australia.
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Thanks - Theres some really great pointers for beginners like myself here.
I have found this really useful for my latest painting and I am sure I will use it in the future.

  #51   Report Bad Post  
Old 04-03-2005, 03:17 AM
geossl geossl is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

A very good article on composition.
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Old 05-22-2005, 11:34 AM
zeldapelda zeldapelda is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Just finished reading your article.
Had to sit down and write to thank you taking the time and putting in the effort to post this excellent article.

It is just wonder and inspiring cant wait to start a landscape.
  #53   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:52 AM
geossl geossl is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Very good and in depth article
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:24 AM
Joe Cartwright Joe Cartwright is offline
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Sydney, Australia
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Thank you very much Johannes, your article makes a very useful checklist on composition. I enjoyed it very much.
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Old 07-30-2005, 09:35 PM
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Miss J Miss J is offline
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Central Texas
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

How I enjoyed it...you will never know how this has helped me - Thank you Johannes.
Jane Ann
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Old 03-14-2006, 04:29 PM
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nana b nana b is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

This is only my 2nd day here and I am really excited about Landscape Compsition Rules! I need to be doing many other things like cooking dinner but I can't pull myself away from the site! All of this is going to help me a lot. I'm looking over my shoulder thinking I could apply some of it to the still life I'm working on now. I wish I could print it off for future use .

Having said that I'm going back to finish reading and studying the rest of it!

Nana B
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Old 03-19-2006, 06:06 AM
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TFB TFB is offline
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Yes, I too really enjoyed this. Some of the rules I think I do instinctively and it is good to have them confirmed. Being on dial up it has taken me all evening to read, but well worth it!

Thanks Johannes for such an informative article.

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Old 04-30-2006, 05:55 PM
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acrylicslatehead acrylicslatehead is offline
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Kent England
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

Very interesting and informative. Having only started to paint approx 7 weeks ago, this is a great help to me.
Thank you
As always many thanks, all your help is greatly appreciated
( acrylicslatehead)
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Old 05-06-2006, 05:32 PM
amurphy amurphy is offline
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Prince Edward Island
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

As an absolute beginner, I really found this Rule Book very, very helpful. Sometimes the "artistic licence" that we are allowed will only carry me so far. But now I understand the "suff" in my paintings that is not working, and that is usually the reason, people do not feel the same way about my paintings that I do. These rules that I am unknowingly breaking are the reason why the painting does not work for others. While I am still in awe of the process, {that fact I can actually paint a tree or whatever} but I am not relating it to the rest of the composition. The tree, house, dog, cloud.... While may be well done as a stand alone, can now work better, together, now that I have "the rules"
Thank you very much, Johannes
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Old 05-08-2006, 12:08 PM
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LarrySeiler LarrySeiler is offline
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NE Wisconsin Nicolet National Forest
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Re: Landscape Composition Rules

It has been said, debated often that rules are made to be broken...however, good work to hold its water with issues pertaining to design and composition yet would mandate that one knows what rules are broken and for what intended purpose.

to approach painting haphazardly with the "anything goes..." anthem, and then tout one's right to break rules as though the work should then earn reconsideration of worthiness is not really thinking thru the "rules are made to be broken" comment rationally.

Yes...rules can be broken...but it should be done intentionally, knowledgably with artistic license; a license that will unquestionably validate its holder simply by looking at the finished work.

I created rules years ago for drawing the face. It was based upon readings I did of DaVinci's cadavier studies. The rules said things like, "the length of the eye equals the distance between the eyes, equals the width of the nostrils. The distance from pupil to pupil equals the length of the ear, the length of the relaxed closed mouth, the length of the nose and the distance from the mid mouth to bottom of chin"...and so forth. There were more rules.

My son is a well known internationally recognized caricature artist, doing work for Time magazine, Wall Street, being looked at by Mad comics, and many various enterprizes. Years ago I gave those rules to him...and they became a foundation for him to see where and what the unique features were to each individual. Knowing those rules intimately made the unique features of the person to be drawn instantly known, and gave him a strategy for what he would exaggerate and play with.

The rules led to his knowingly and intentionally stretching or breaking of them.

There are many rules and many approaches to landscape painting and I see many new painters here by their own admission "new" or a beginner.

The growth is ever ongoing...and after 30 years of painting nature and landscapes I yet push myself.

This past weekend I took the advice of Emille Gruppe to use red undertones to build up an underpainting prior to painting the greens of nature, and my son Jason and I went plein air painting.

We were discussing on route to our destination how subtle all the greens of nature are, most showing a hint of red or orange which somewhat neutralizes and controls the green, and how Gruppe was smart with his advice to his students.

For many years I've painted on the fly, weaving the hints of color I saw, bringing color under control with complements and so forth...but for fun I painted the following image using Gruppe's suggestion. Even so...I chose to augment his rule. I broke the reds down into three groupings of dark (using a bit of viridian to deepen the red without changing it), a mid red value, and then a light red (using Naples Yellow and white to avoid a pink).

I underpainted with turps the values of the tree masses in foreground and background using these various reds...and did so taking Gruppe's rule to heart and YET augmenting his rule to use for the benefit I decided would work best for myself.

Here is that painting...an 8"x 8" oil....done in about 1-1/2 hours...

Note the red coming thru in transparent passages and where I let it come thru in full. Note the harmony and warmth it gives naturally to the work.

I really enjoyed this...and understanding rules helps certainly. Breaking the rules helps even more when you come to understand your OWN WAY of working, and why your instincts lead you to adjust the rules for the sake of convenience.
Larry Seiler- Signature Member IPAP
"My Painting From Life" blog
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