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Old 02-02-2018, 03:58 PM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Paying your dues

"They haven't paid their dues."

Just curious if you have ever heard or overheard this in reference to why the work by an emerging or new to the venue artist, is being rejected from a show or dismissed in some way, despite the fact that it might be one of the better pieces they have in hand.

Sort of on this topic - There is one plein air event that I am aware of that requires you to either not sign your work until AFTER the judging, or in the case of stuff that has to be under glass, you must cover the signature when it is submitted to the judges. Obviously this won't prevent some judges from figuring out who's work it is, but I kind of like the idea as it might reduce the outcome based on the artist's reputation rather than the quality of the piece being judged.
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Old 02-02-2018, 04:55 PM
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Re: Paying your dues

not to be insensitive, but there's a lot of crap art out there and a lot of fragile egos.

Quote:
despite the fact that it might be one of the better pieces they have in hand

a newbie [or experienced] artists better pieces? might be great, might be crap - who's judging, how many total pieces for the show have been submitted, what were the show requirements, what other pieces were rejected... there are a ton of reasons to reject a piece of art, some logical, some biased. life isn't fair - here's hoping we paint for the love of it anyway.

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Old 02-02-2018, 06:38 PM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: Paying your dues

Some clarification - The main reason for my post was to find out if any of you have actually run into that specific reason "They haven't paid their dues." or similar phrasing, being clearly stated or seemingly implied as the main criteria to exclude anyone's art from whatever venue.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:29 PM
ianuk ianuk is offline
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Re: Paying your dues

Art is so unique in its entirety that what is suggested in the original post, is I think, a very good idea. Throughout all aspects of life people are judged in many respects on their age and in some respects, their experience. For example, there may be out there someone of a younger status with an absolutely brilliant mind of political science to be able to run a country for the 21st century. However, such a person would never fill such a position because the persons peers wouldn't deem them worthy of sufficiently paying their dues because they do not have the necessary years to have done so.

Last edited by ianuk : 02-02-2018 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:28 PM
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MarialenaS MarialenaS is offline
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Re: Paying your dues

My paintings are rejected by art galleries because they are made with watercolours. Here in this place of the world art galleries don't make shows for watercolour paintings, unless of course you are an already well known grand master and so the medium that was used is of no importance. In this case they "sell " the brand name and not the paintings.

I used to care at a some point about this as I found it unfair, but now I don't really care. I paint for myself and now I am the one who rejects crappy galleries' offers because I sell and they don't. You see I have caught the audience that the art gallery people don't even suspect that exists because they ignore it as not worthy for a potential clientelle.

If you reverse the reasons behind exhibiting to physical art galleries can you tell me why should I care to make ONE show at one gallery when I have a 24/7/365 show online with a traffic like this ( see below):



I bet that most art galleries haven't seen such audience/traffic ( physical or online ) not even in their wildest dreams.
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Old 02-03-2018, 02:16 PM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: Paying your dues

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianuk
Art is so unique in its entirety that what is suggested in the original post, is I think, a very good idea. Throughout all aspects of life people are judged in many respects on their age and in some respects, their experience. For example, there may be out there someone of a younger status with an absolutely brilliant mind of political science to be able to run a country for the 21st century. However, such a person would never fill such a position because the persons peers wouldn't deem them worthy of sufficiently paying their dues because they do not have the necessary years to have done so.

Well said. That certainly does apply to people who are given responsibilities. I don't want a 17 year old in charge of the city where I live.

For art though, I have always let the art speak for itself. Whether it is the artist's original work, or their 10,000th is irrelevant. I don't care if they started painting yesterday afternoon. If they clearly demonstrate a mastery of the medium it immediately has significance for me, even if I don't like the actual painting. If I like it then it just got racked up another major notch. I am only interested in the image itself. I don't care who painted it as I am not looking for investments. The backstory is meaningless to me. If it takes someones reputation as an artist and a story to try give the art some value I am left cold.

Your comments do however remind me of the reality that when certain types of people are looking for an investment piece, they are unlikely to buy from an unknown artist. Some of that type of buyers will only buy what the gallery salesperson or their art buying consultant tells them to buy, even if they don't like it. I can see how this might influence allowing new artist's work into some events though almost every event I have been to welcomes emerging artists that can meet their quality standards regardless of their reputation or history.
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Old 02-03-2018, 04:26 PM
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Re: Paying your dues

Quote:
Originally Posted by contumacious
Well said. That certainly does apply to people who are given responsibilities. I don't want a 17 year old in charge of the city where I live.

For art though, I have always let the art speak for itself. Whether it is the artist's original work, or their 10,000th is irrelevant. I don't care if they started painting yesterday afternoon. If they clearly demonstrate a mastery of the medium it immediately has significance for me, even if I don't like the actual painting. If I like it then it just got racked up another major notch. I am only interested in the image itself. I don't care who painted it as I am not looking for investments. The backstory is meaningless to me. If it takes someones reputation as an artist and a story to try give the art some value I am left cold.

Your comments do however remind me of the reality that when certain types of people are looking for an investment piece, they are unlikely to buy from an unknown artist. Some of that type of buyers will only buy what the gallery salesperson or their art buying consultant tells them to buy, even if they don't like it. I can see how this might influence allowing new artist's work into some events though almost every event I have been to welcomes emerging artists that can meet their quality standards regardless of their reputation or history.

Well said.
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Old 02-03-2018, 04:49 PM
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Re: Paying your dues

I have never been one who subscribed to the concept of "paying one's dues".

Good art is good art, and nobody ever needs to know whether you are a "beginner", or an "experienced artist" for having art juried into a show.

I believe that I mentioned some time ago that when I was teaching oil painting at a local recreation center, one of my first students was a retired nurse who had never had any art training whatsoever.

She took my class 3 times, and she painted a painting in each class. I then convinced her to join our art club, and she did. Shortly after joining, I convinced her to enter her 3 paintings in a spring show that our club was having, and she managed to receive an "honorable mention" with her second painting! And, of all things--it was a portrait!

I told her that some artists work for a long time in order to receive some form of "credential" as she just had received with her "honorable mention", and with usually a lot more "experience" than what she had. I told her that she probably should not tell anyone that her portrait was only the second piece of art she had ever done in her life.
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:45 PM
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Re: Paying your dues

I completely disagree. You want to get really good, you gotta pay your dues. You're content to be just good, you don't.

This piece took first place in Advanced at the 1998 California Open. It's my fifth, and the first done outside a classroom, my hands only, with no input from my teacher. Prior to my first seminar bird with him, I'd never done a representational sculpture in my life (and for that matter, only one abstract, in high school). I had been carving for less than a year when I did this. I had a perfect right to enter it in Novice (or Intermediate), but no one would have believed it.






Thing is, it was preceded by almost forty years of studying birds (especially birds of prey) and over twenty as a professional guitarmaker. So it isn't like I conjured it up out of nowhere. I paid my dues.
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Last edited by musket : 02-03-2018 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 02-04-2018, 05:53 AM
ianuk ianuk is offline
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Re: Paying your dues

Doesn't matter to me what you've paid, that Falcon has such poise, it's beautiful.
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:56 AM
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Re: Paying your dues

Thanks, ian.

Actually she's a hawk, not a falcon. Falcons are different and not closely related. In falconry parlance, "All falcons are hawks, but not all hawks are falcons." It's acceptable to call a peregrine a hawk, but not to call a sharp-shin like this one a falcon. Closest UK equivalent is a sparrowhawk.

End o' bird lecture.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:23 AM
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Re: Paying your dues

In our society “...Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...” is often re-written as ‘...Beauty is what sells...”.Through 40 years of doing my art as a hobby while computers and sales dominated my life I saw the other side of the coin. Too often some of the most beautiful art in the world is relegated to the trash bin because it is not in vogue at the moment. More artist have been crushed by “...consumer choice...” than any other factor.

I never forgot as an IT manager a New York trip I took. After a day of tough meetings I would release my energies at The Met. One summer evening as I was going to the Met I spotted a young Russian artist, with his art stall sprawlled close to the Mets steps, painting cookie cutter paintings of the Kremlin. He did not spot me watching him churn out copies. When he did see me he motioned me over and started his sales pitch in broken English. I listened and then for some reason asked him “...you obviously can paint. Why do you do this?...” he looked around timidly for a second and then he replied “...I want to get something for my work. People feel sorry for me as a Russian so I paint what they expect me to paint. This is how a make a small living. Then I can paint what want at night which they would never buy...”

Too much of what I saw in galleries was painted like the Russian I met - to sell. I now know why I enjoy wet canvas and exhibitions so much more than a gallery. The art is beautiful and spontaneous. Whether it is Marialena Sarris and her dog portraits that touch me deeply, William Martin with the beautiful unfolding or Musket and the natural gazing hawk these allow me to gaze deeply into the artist soul. It is what the artist fights for to make their statement. This is what is important...
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Old 02-04-2018, 11:49 AM
ianuk ianuk is offline
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Re: Paying your dues

Quote:
Originally Posted by musket
Thanks, ian.

Actually she's a hawk, not a falcon. Falcons are different and not closely related. In falconry parlance, "All falcons are hawks, but not all hawks are falcons." It's acceptable to call a peregrine a hawk, but not to call a sharp-shin like this one a falcon. Closest UK equivalent is a sparrowhawk.

End o' bird lecture.

You rightly so pedantic

I took this perched on a roof nearby. I didn't have a zoom so poor image. It was quite a distance.

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Old 02-04-2018, 01:21 PM
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Re: Paying your dues

Nice photo Ian.

It has always annoyed me that some people think they can throw paint on a canvas, call it Abstract, and then expect to sell it. I worked long and hard before I produced work good enough to offer for sale.

Years ago I made the mistake of mentioning to a buyer that her painting had taken me 40 minutes to complete. She told me that it was best not to tell people that and yet it had taken me years to get to that point, the point whereby I could produce a painting in only 40 minutes with satisfactory results.

But, I do think there are exceptions to the rule, people that are naturally gifted, unlike everyone else that has to work hard for success. We have all met those people, people that can play the piano wonderfully or can do a mathematical equation with little thought...I believe it is the same for some artists in that they are naturally gifted and therefore don't always need months or years 'paying their dues'.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:22 PM
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Re: Paying your dues

Quote:
Originally Posted by musket
I completely disagree. You want to get really good, you gotta pay your dues. You're content to be just good, you don't.

This piece took first place in Advanced at the 1998 California Open. It's my fifth, and the first done outside a classroom, my hands only, with no input from my teacher. Prior to my first seminar bird with him, I'd never done a representational sculpture in my life (and for that matter, only one abstract, in high school). I had been carving for less than a year when I did this. I had a perfect right to enter it in Novice (or Intermediate), but no one would have believed it.






Thing is, it was preceded by almost forty years of studying birds (especially birds of prey) and over twenty as a professional guitarmaker. So it isn't like I conjured it up out of nowhere. I paid my dues.

Very impressive.
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