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Old 01-31-2018, 10:34 PM
Trond Trond is offline
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Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Sounds ludicrous if you ask me. We can't handle mythology and nudity anymore?

https://www.theguardian.com/artandde...t-conversation
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Old 01-31-2018, 11:16 PM
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caldwell.brobeck caldwell.brobeck is offline
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

There‘s a link on the page to the Jonathan Jones post on the same issue; there’s some wonderful comments below.
As for my own view, the removal of the painting is just modern Puritanism, and the gallery is getting justifiably ridiculed for it...
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Old 02-01-2018, 05:01 AM
ianuk ianuk is offline
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

And yet at the same time. Millions of viewers look at topless images of Kim Kardashian who claims to be a feminist, among others on instragram and elsewhere.

The only good thing to come out of this new movement for me is that there is a surge among feminists (men and women) to stop women working flaunting their bodies. I've always wondered why someone would pay a semi nude female model money for nothing other than standing on a F1 grid or walking out beside a racehorse. Money for nothing and your chicks for free.
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:05 AM
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

If you ask me, women can flaunt their bodies as much as they like. I actually think this is regressive. Women showing off would have been scandalous during Victorian times, and now it is scandalous again (and it has always been scandalous in Saudi Arabia. Countries that treat women poorly are not known for showing them off).

And of course, taking this attitude to the art galleries is beyond ridiculous. I agree that it is a modern form of puritanism. People used to use religion for these sorts of arguments, but now they use feminism.
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:40 AM
olive.oyl olive.oyl is offline
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Well, if they removed it in order to “prompt conversation,” then congratulations to them. Looks like it’s working.

Art is filled to its art history brim with pictures like this…naked women, nymphets, desirable beauties - looking up adoringly, lounging around lazily, soft and round and curvaceous and MOSTY painted by white men. Oh well, you can’t (nor should we ever) erase things from our cultural past, but to de-emphasize one type of older thing over another type of newer thing is just part of a curator’s job. Plus, people talking about a controversy – real or manufactured - generates more admissions and of course, that’s part of a museum’s job. And if you think feminism is some kind of puritanism, what I’d say back to you is sorry, but you just don’t really understand feminism. Think again.

Personally, I don’t get the curator’s idea that says removing a painting from public view is a good way to have a discussion about it. Why would anyone want to discuss an image that you can’t see?!? I mean, I understand the intent behind her action, but this was ham-handed because it suggests there was some kind of pearl-clutching moral offense taken. And so now people can just blurt…Censorship! Puritans! Feminists! This is a museum and she’s a curator and they see LOTS of art, probably more than any of us do, so it’s hard to think that anybody there was “morally offended.” The link said they wanted to bring in Sonia Boyce instead, but instead of instead, why not side by side? I just looked at her work and okay, let her (or some totally opposite/different kind of artist) and Waterhouse go nose-to-nose. Since “beauty” - as seen through men’s eyes - isn’t the end all and be all of art anymore, she can have her chance, too. Most likely, she won’t outlive Waterhouse because he’s already inside the Elite Art Club (stamped and sealed) and she’s soooooo far outside of it and merely looking in. The art world has its own layers of sexism and power plays you know…just like any other field.

So I say, the more opportunities for more artists (of all kinds), the merrier.

GET IN THERE SONIA and give Old John a poke in the eye.
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Old 02-01-2018, 12:03 PM
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

It's a painting of a mythological subject. It isn't real life. Compared to the objectification of women's bodies in the average gangsta rap video, not to mention plenty of movies, it's pretty mild (The Lady of Shalott be it noted, is fully clothed and is by far Waterhouse's most famous painting).
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Last edited by musket : 02-01-2018 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 02-01-2018, 12:04 PM
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Well, for the record, I didn't say feminism necessarily IS puritan, I said they USE feminism. But either way, feminism has been many things over the years. Some of the earliest feminist groups (uncertain if they used that word though) were Christian women's organizations opposed to excessive drinking and also fighting for women's rights to vote at the same time. A bit different from today. And some branches of feminism are decidedly sex-negative, and negative towards men's sexuality for sure (see what happened to Velazquez's Venus painting for instance). I am fine with most other forms of feminism.
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Old 02-01-2018, 12:34 PM
olive.oyl olive.oyl is offline
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Yes, and right now we’re in this “me too movement” although I like to call it a “rapture-reckoning.” That’s both funny AND angry so more me-olive than me-too. I think these kinds of (political power) discussions need to keep going on in some form or another everywhere, including in art because if they don’t, what happens? What happens if we all (the loud mouth women people) just shut up? I suppose then we can all go back to the good old days where everything was better for men? Mostly better for most men. I’m sure there has to be SOME women that don’t like the status quo upended, either. And I think that’s all this curator was doing, basically. To force some kind of discussion about how we see each other….quite literally.

Now, I’m going to log off to paint a half-horse, half-naked woman with a little baby, shaped like a weird bean, that’s suckling at her breast.
He/she/it is pulling it into an ugly shape but still, the bean baby looks at her adoringly.
Somebody has to…
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Old 02-01-2018, 01:47 PM
ianuk ianuk is offline
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Feminism in most parts is hypocritical. Women appear in advertising scantily dressed selling everything from ice cream to perfume. It earns them a living. How they actually earn a living standing around scantily dressed and doing nothing else is bewildering. However, the advertiser has long known that subtle sexual images sell. Get rid of the lot of overpaid scantily dressed women and pay them less than many other women that actually work hard for a living because they weren't fortunate enough to be born with a slim figure or a symmetrical face.

As for art, thank heaven for Lucian Freud, an artist that painted what the majority of women actually look like.

Last edited by ianuk : 02-01-2018 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 02-01-2018, 02:49 PM
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Wow. This discussion got very varied and interesting fast.
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:36 PM
ianuk ianuk is offline
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trond
Wow. This discussion got very varied and interesting fast.

You'll have to excuse me, this elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:44 PM
DaveCrow DaveCrow is offline
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

It seems like a manufactured controversy to me siezing a moment of current zeitgeist to reap museum admissions.

If they really want a conversation, then I agree that they should hang Sonia Boyce side by side and have a meaningful forum for conversation. Art to art.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:23 PM
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianuk
Feminism in most parts is hypocritical. Women appear in advertising scantily dressed selling everything from ice cream to perfume. It earns them a living. How they actually earn a living standing around scantily dressed and doing nothing else is bewildering. However, the advertiser has long known that subtle sexual images sell. Get rid of the lot of overpaid scantily dressed women and pay them less than many other women that actually work hard for a living because they weren't fortunate enough to be born with a slim figure or a symmetrical face.

As for art, thank heaven for Lucian Freud, an artist that painted what the majority of women actually look like.

Feminist is 100% hypocritical. Not only because the majority of those who exhibit their body parts use it as an emancipation alibi ( what is their audience??) but because the life style that modern feminism claims and promotes is not applicable and neither fair for everyday average middle class women. ( not celebrities neither the super rich ones).

Before "feminism" ( in quotes ) women had to deal with their household issues and raise their children, something that is one of the most difficult "jobs" in the world, without defined working hours and without payment. ( children don't ask you.. demand your care).

Now they have to work in their day job too and keep their household too, and raise their children too, while their men expect and consider also as a standard the existence of a second salary brought in the household from their wife's day job. Most of them are absent from their houses for more hours than their wives, because they have "to establish a career" and so the weight of raising the children goes again to their wives.

Those women now who are unmarried don't have of course to deal with households and children, but they don't care to get married either due to the implications that a possible marriage ( or cohabitation) can bring to their lives and so they actually postpone to its limits or cancel one of the fundamental parts of their femininity. Motherhood.

Feminism was supposed to improve the position of women into society. Not to cancel their inherent ability to have children ( which no other gender has by nature) with social engineering.

For me feminism ( the way that is promoted right now) is a pure form of social engineering, hidden behind the alibi of gender equality, which actually doesn't exist in real life and in the end of the day doesn't benefit neither women nor society.

P.S. I'm replying to Ian, I don't want to start a new thread and I don't want to expand the discussion on another topic. Thank you for understanding the purpose of a post-reply!

Last edited by MarialenaS : 02-02-2018 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:27 PM
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveCrow
It seems like a manufactured controversy to me siezing a moment of current zeitgeist to reap museum admissions.

If they really want a conversation, then I agree that they should hang Sonia Boyce side by side and have a meaningful forum for conversation. Art to art.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:08 PM
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Re: Manchester Art Gallery removes Waterhouse painting to 'prompt conversation'

I think this thread is interesting Thanks MarialenaS
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