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Old 12-24-2017, 08:25 AM
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Use to denote nudity/mature subject matter The Superstitious Palmer.

No1


No2


No3



The Reliquary of St Foi at Conques.





Dave.
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:11 PM
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What am I looking at here Dave, work by you or work by someone called Palmer? They are odd frames?

Is it snowing there yet? Its 39 C (102 F ) outside here I'm sitting under the air conditioner. I hope Christmas is good for you all there.
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Old 12-25-2017, 04:13 AM
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No Snow Bill but there is bad weather in the offing, and I’ve just put the turkey in the oven!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
What am I looking at here Dave, work by you or work by someone called Palmer? They are odd frames?
Superstitious Palmers used to walk around Europe visiting the religious reliquary of the saints. My title always refers to the art history in this case the Relic of Saint Foi which in it’s day was a big attraction for Palmers and made immense amounts of money for the Church and Abbey.

The frame is a painting frame, I’m using it to hold drawing paper while drawing stuff from the “High Mannerism” period which as you know emerged about 1530.
The idea is to draw from one of the worst periods of art in the hope of recognizing the vulgar vocabulary and there by avoiding it.

Just before Christmas I saw a film about John Berger, at one point he is talking to Tilda Swinton while making her portrait using one of these frames. It was a wonderful portrait so in the vane hope of getting as good as John was, I made a frame from what I could remember from the film.
The frame works very well unfortunately the drawing has not improved.


John Berger and Tilda Swinton from the film The Seasons in Quincy.

Dave.
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Old 12-25-2017, 04:49 PM
earlselwyn earlselwyn is offline
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Use to denote nudity/mature subject matter Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Dave,

In your post, I think you refer to mannerism as "one of the worst periods of art..."

Please expand on this a bit. What are you saying? What is your complaint? Are you referring to the "exaggeration" associated with art from this period? Specifically, what do you find vulgar?

Just curious.

-Earl
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Old 12-25-2017, 05:39 PM
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Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Most art periods descend into Mannerism Earl, for instance early illuminated manuscripts had a nave vitality to them but as the manuscript got continually copied by the monks the canon changed and they became mannered.
After the renaissance art became more and more mannered by the fortieth century Art was circumscribed by rules, consequentially art became self-conscious and artificial. This mannerism infected art in one way or another for centuries. Historians have used the terms Early High and Late Mannerism in a derogatory way to describe this period.
The modern Atelier system is highly mannered and produces similar but different dead art for roughly the same reason.

Dave.
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Old 12-25-2017, 08:06 PM
earlselwyn earlselwyn is offline
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Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Dave,

I just don't get all the atelier bashing. What is wrong with learning to accurately paint and draw the world around us? In my opinion - Atelier's are teaching a skill or trade... like plumbing. You don't even have to call it art. I don't care. I want that skill. Ultimately, it's up to the student to do something more with what they learn... like some highfalutin thing YOU consider good art.

By the way, I checked out your website and love your work. Do you attend or have you attended an atelier? It kinda looks like it. Just sayin.

-Earl
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Old 12-26-2017, 04:49 AM
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Ah everything makes sense at first I thought I was looking at drawings under glass and was trying to remember the referenced artist because I thought I had seen that drawing somewhere and now I realise its not a drawing it's a sculpture by Giambologna in Florence which you had drawn.

I have never seen Giambologna's statue in real life I like its dynamic twists and see it as a wonderful drawing challenge.

You have made the woman too big she is supposed to be receding into upper space. There are other mishaps with the relationships between the figures and recheck the curves of the various parts also check the hands they are carelessly observed. I could point out many more discrepancies but the real question is how do you want to deal with the issues between observation and mark making? Picasso invented his own appearances of things but before he arrived there he was a master draughtsman and so were the other early moderns. Art history teaches us if we want to acquire the skill of restoring appearances we have to go through the rigorous training of our hands and eyes before we can be freed from their restraints.

Dave, given its an untimed drawing these are careless mistakes, you have to make up your mind what you want to learn and pursue it regardless of the boogeyman Mannerism. Every artist who continues to repeat his style must fall into your definition of mannerism. You don't have to become an academic artist in order to draw well but you do need to know the difference between accuracy and slapdash work and your drawings are in danger of becoming slapdash and careless. Forget the statues and copy master drawings so your hand and eye follow the same trail remember Robert Beverly Hale's Masterclass in Figure Drawing, I think you have it or his other book Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters copy those drawings and learn correct vocabulary and save yourself a lot of grief!

It takes time to capture the appearance of something and a lot of modifying of mistakes because seeing is a faulty activity, after all we are only human, we have already discussed techné and poesis previously. poetry doesn't come out of nothing.

@Earl, avoid taking Dave's comment on ateliers to heart and just help him to draw the figure better. Follow your curiosity no matter where it leads you.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
Atelier's are teaching a skill or trade... like plumbing.
Avery good analogy Earl the sort of drawings produced are a sort of plumbing.
It’s difficult to explain why I dislike this sort of plumbing in a short reply but think of it like this. A photograph stopes time, a drawing encompasses time.
Often the skill of Atelier drawing expresses itself as a manner, and its application to what is being drawn is indirect in that the student is applying a leant understanding rather than reacting to what is here in time.
There is a story about Oskar Kokoschka teaching a life class.
The students were uninspired. So he spoke to the model and instructed him to pretend to collapse.
When he had fallen over, Kokoschka rushed over to him, listened to his heart and announced to the shocked students that he was dead.
A little afterwards the model got to his feet and resumed the pose. ‘Now draw him,’ said Kokoschka, ‘as though you were aware that he was alive and not dead.’

A quote from Cézanne, ‘One minute in the life of the world is going by. Paint it as it is.’
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
By the way, I checked out your website and love your work.
The fact that you love my work is very disappointing you should not endure bad art, and certainly should not embrace it.

Dave.
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“What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the avocados, babies in the tomatoes!—and you, Garcia Lorca, what were you doing down by the watermelons?”
— Allen Ginsberg
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PS Critiques always welcome but no plaudits or emoting please.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:42 AM
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Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Well identified Bill and as you say the drawings are abysmal.
You are right to say forget the statues, to me drawing this sort of thing is a waste of time as it seems to get in the way of learning to look, a drawing should contains the experience of looking, these are just copying a static photo in frozen time, a good drawing should forces us to stop and enter it’s time.


Dave.
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“What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the avocados, babies in the tomatoes!—and you, Garcia Lorca, what were you doing down by the watermelons?”
— Allen Ginsberg
Are you ready for a Journey?
PS Critiques always welcome but no plaudits or emoting please.
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Old 12-28-2017, 04:14 PM
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Use to denote nudity/mature subject matter Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Dave, abysmal, according to whom, according to what? The only true measure one can make is with oneself. Looking at other people's drawing can show what is possible or not in your chosen genre, looking at your own drawings shows how far you have come. Having a drawing goal to head toward is better than wandering around the wilderness aimlessly hoping to find your way by chance.

Time is wasted when you are not drawing, draw anything, draw everything put it all into procedural memory capturing the appearance of something is an acquired skill.

Your drawings are improving and because you grumble about them means you're not satisfied in yourself so we both know you can do better.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:56 PM
earlselwyn earlselwyn is offline
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Dave: LOL!! I stand by my analogy. The world is a better place with good plumbing.

Bill: Point taken. Moving on.

-Earl
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
abysmal, according to whom, according to what?
According to anyone with a good eye and a rudimentary understanding of Art History Bill.
The visual world as we see it is always a momentary skirmish and our drawings should be a construction of that fleeting ever moving encounter with the subject, rather than the wooden static frozen in time appearance of my abysmal drawings.

Funnily enough Earl I had a gate valve shear off internally due to a corroded spindle on Christmas day the gate dropped down and shut off the cold water to the bathroom, had to spend the morning of boxing day sorting it out, so plumbing gets a thumbs down along with bad drawing.

Dave.
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“What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the avocados, babies in the tomatoes!—and you, Garcia Lorca, what were you doing down by the watermelons?”
— Allen Ginsberg
Are you ready for a Journey?
PS Critiques always welcome but no plaudits or emoting please.
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Old 01-02-2018, 08:41 PM
IndianaKate IndianaKate is offline
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Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Hi Dave!
your drawings are much better than when I was a regular poster here awhile ago. I like number 2 very much. I also love the story from Kokoschka. I love his portraits in green and orange. I'm glad to know that he was also an inventive teacher.

Kate
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:56 AM
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Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Glad you like Kokoschka Kate, the reason I posted the story was to explain why my drawings are so terrible rather than to entertain.
The fact you like him must give you some inclination of what good drawing can be, hope you don’t like him because you are both “Ks” . But rather like him because he responds to the person and not some pre-learnt parody of what drawing should be.

Dave
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“What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the avocados, babies in the tomatoes!—and you, Garcia Lorca, what were you doing down by the watermelons?”
— Allen Ginsberg
Are you ready for a Journey?
PS Critiques always welcome but no plaudits or emoting please.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:18 AM
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Re: The Superstitious Palmer.

Happy New Year Dave.
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