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Old 12-07-2017, 03:30 AM
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Safflower oil in gouache paint

Good morning!

I have been looking into getting back into painting with my old love gouache and I was thinking of getting some paints that were worth more than my usual 5 tubes for 1 euro..

So I stumbled upon these umton barvy gouache paints.. They look nice, are kind of affordable and I will probably get them but ever since I stumbled upon their chemical composition, this one thing has been bothering me..

They list safflower oil in their gouache ingredients.. ( http://www.umton.cz/index.php?call=slozeni_en scroll a bit down for their designer gouache )
Why would they put oil in their watersoluble paint?
Would this turn the paint into a more like an egg tempera kind of thing?

I have never seen any other paint manufacturing page listing all of their ingredients as openly as they do so maybe oil in gouache is more common than I think?

I would love to hear your thoughts on this
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:48 AM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Flug, I would recommend you Email Umton and ask them why they use Safflower Oil.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:22 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Well, I did and I have to say they are extremely prompt at answering.. the only problem remaining is that I didn't really get the answer I was looking for..

Quote:
Good Day!

I was looking into buying your gouache paints and I wondered what the
safflower oil in your gouache adds to the paint. I think this is not a very
common ingredient for gouache paints, but I might be wrong..

Are there special properties the safflower oil adds to the gouache?

thank you very much
Anna

Quote:
Hello Anna,

thanks for your interest of our tempera (designer) gouache.

These our gouaches are produced of pigment + emulsion.
The emulsion contains arabic gum, dest. water, safflower oil and glycerin.

Our gouaches are usually diluted with water during the painting.
There is possible to dilute with safflower oil, too, of course.
In this case you will have the more oily tempera gouache.

Best Regards

Antonin

I don't know if I asked incorrectly or if I can ask again more direct "what made you decide to add safflower oil to gouache" and if I would ever get a satisfying answer other than "well that is how it is made"..
At this point it is sheer curiosity..

The paints have been ordered nonetheless, they will take a while to arrive.. till then I would highly enjoy your theories on the reasons for adding oil to watermedia..
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:23 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Curious to know if anyone out there has in fact tried diluting their gouache paint with safflower oil...? Because, in reality would you not have pigment plus oil = oil paint ?!
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:17 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

I wonder how the safflower oil would effect the rate of drying? What proportion of the paint is the oil?
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:58 AM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Gum arabic is a known oil and water emulsifier, some lotions or soaps are made that way, but I don't know of any other paint manufacturer that uses it in their gouache paints. I'm sure it would be something they would want to declare. Commercial egg tempera paints have some oil content, but they behave somewhat differently than tempera made with just yolk and pigment. There's really no particular reason to add it; although, it might give more blending characteristics and slow the drying time. I'd be curious to hear how they behave when you get them.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:33 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

I finally got them tonight..
I've only opened the phthalho blue to compare it to my winsor & newton cyan as they are both PB15.. well they are not the same color.. the umton is much much darker..
undiluted straight from the tube the winsor &newton dries matt while the umton has a slight sheen to it.. I didn't notice any differences in the drying time..

I'll be probably doing swatches tomorrow and posting pictures.. please let me know if there are any specific things I should be looking out for

thanks
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Old 12-19-2017, 06:23 AM
Artist_by_Accident Artist_by_Accident is offline
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

This has been a very interesting discussion & now I want to know how the paints work. Hope you'll keep us posted.
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Old 12-19-2017, 03:23 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

So.. first of all I committed a blunder when I used a black acrylic ink as my black line to test opaqueness as it is watertight..

The paints



The swatches


the only one that leaves a slight sheen is the pthalo blue.. they are all one pigment colors besides naples yellow and the whites.. when you rub the pthalo and the helio green a tiny little bit of color comes off, but the do not feel or look chalky.. Madder lake deep is transparent I suppose or semi transparent? and I am a tiny little bit disappointed by the ultramarine red..
I put them on a palette this morning and and about 12 hours later (now) all but ultramarine red are still wet.. when they dry I'll check how well they rewet.. (at the same time I put my three winsor & newton gouache next to them.. yellow and magenta are quite dry.. cyan is getting there)
On paper they dry quite fast.. I didn't notice any difference..

The PB15s
on a tile
counter clockwise from top left Winsor &Newton cyan, bottom left corner Umton pthalo blue and on the right White Nights Azure (watercolor).. they all claim to be just PB15 but that doesn't mean much when burned sienna and burned umber can be the same pigment..



on paper
the same colors (Winsor & Newton , Umton, White Nights)



of course White Nights is a watercolor, but I thought it would be fun to see the difference..

I think they'll be fun.. and from my limited knowledge of egg tempera (I got to watch people use it) it is not like it at all..

That's all from me for now.. I'll get back to you if I notice anything strange when I get to actually paint with them..

PS: I saw no magic happen due to the oil content.. I can see no oil stains on the back of the cotman watercolor paper I used for this test.. The only thing I saw was what I thought of as a thin oil film in the dirty brush water.. but maybe that is always there and I just never noticed till now..
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Last edited by flug : 12-19-2017 at 03:58 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-19-2017, 03:57 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbclemons
Gum arabic is a known oil and water emulsifier, some lotions or soaps are made that way, but I don't know of any other paint manufacturer that uses it in their gouache paints. I'm sure it would be something they would want to declare. Commercial egg tempera paints have some oil content, but they behave somewhat differently than tempera made with just yolk and pigment. There's really no particular reason to add it; although, it might give more blending characteristics and slow the drying time. I'd be curious to hear how they behave when you get them.

I just noticed that the answer might be right there on your webpage dbclemons.. http://dbclemons.weebly.com/make-gouache-paint.html

If I may quote you
Quote:
Optional: 1-2 drops preservative: Oil of clove, Thymol, or even unscented Lysol will work. Not required, but will help prolong the life of the mixture.
maybe they are just that thorough when listing their ingredients? or do you think safflower oil would not work as a perservative?
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:23 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by flug
...
maybe they are just that thorough when listing their ingredients? or do you think safflower oil would not work as a perservative?

Safflower oil hasn't any preservative qualities, to my knowledge. That is why hydrochloride is often added to commercial safflower cooking oil. Sometimes soybean oil is added because of it's high vitamin E content, or citric acid. What makes essential oils like clove or thyme work is mostly caused by the fumes they release, which kills bacteria.

Here's a link to a science paper on the benefits of some essential oils, particularly clove. It describes how they were tested against bacteria like E. Coli.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3819475/
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:39 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Thank you for sharing the pics and detail info, flug. I can't imagine how the addition of safflower would cause any problems. As I mentioned, commercial egg tempera paints use it as well, or at least what is sometimes only listed as a "vegetable oil."

If the paint stays wet on the palette for up to 12 hours that could be a useful feature, but it really isn't required, since you can re-wet the dry paint with water. It's an interesting aspect, however.

That looks like a decent range of pigments. PV15 (Ultram. Violet) is a very transparent pigment. Usually marked as a 3 on a scale of 4.

By the way, did you possibly get the names of the whites switched on your sample sheet? The pigment code for titanium white is PW6. PW4 is zinc, and PW5 is Lithopone.
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Last edited by dbclemons : 12-23-2017 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:33 AM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

You are right about the whites I made a mistake..
the one called opaque white is PW 6 and PW 5 while the one called titanium white is PW6 and PW 4.. sorry about that
I don't know how I got confused like that The above are what is stated on the packaging.. I think I got confused because there is one more white listed on their webpage.. but I still got both of them wrong..
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:53 PM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

I wonder if this makes the gouache insoluble over time? When the safflower oil oxidizes it could make the paint impossible to rewet (unless the amount of oil is very small of course). For some painters that could be a good thing, a bit like casein paint perhaps (commercial casein does contain oil by the way).
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:29 AM
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Re: Safflower oil in gouache paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trond
I wonder if this makes the gouache insoluble over time? When the safflower oil oxidizes it could make the paint impossible to rewet (unless the amount of oil is very small of course). For some painters that could be a good thing, a bit like casein paint perhaps (commercial casein does contain oil by the way).

You might be on the right track
about two weeks later I tried to scrub my swatches.. all but the ultramarine don't really reactivate after scrubbing.. unless they have been applied very thickly and then maybe it hasn't been long enough for the thicker paint.. no comparison to how easily the swatches of winsor and newton gouache lifted.. they also don't reactivate that well ( or at all for 4 of them) after drying in the palette.. (though it did take a long time for them to dry)
so I suppose this could be an interesting middle ground between acrylic and normal gouache..
(I did specifically avoid the st petersburg "tempera" gouache because I saw in their page the mention that it included an acrylic binder )

anyway.. happy new year
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