WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Watercolor > The Learning Zone
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-29-2017, 02:37 AM
CarolinaPal CarolinaPal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 152
 
W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

Has anyone recently tested the lightfastness of this paint? I saw a thread here from a number of years back where this paint was tested and was not found to be lightfast. In fact, it faded quite badly. It is PB15, PV19 and PBk6 - and I think they figured the problem had to do with the black pigment. However, I'm really not sure, but I'd love to know if W&N fixed whatever was wrong so it would now be lightfast.

I'd never bothered with Payne's Gray, but I tried some W&N watercolor markers recently, and one of them was Payne's Gray. I swiped a little water on those marks and had one of those, 'Oh, so THAT is what I've been missing!' moments. I like that shade of gray! I bought a small tube of the paint, and I have a few paintings I'd like to use it on since you folks keep telling me to use up all those sheets of watercolor paper I've been hoard-, er, cough, saving. If this little beauty is lightfast, I'll use it. Otherwise, I have other lightfast options for gray, and I can save this W&N Payne's Gray for when I'm not painting seriously - which is more often than anything else . . .
Reply With Quote
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-29-2017, 09:50 AM
CharM's Avatar
CharM CharM is offline
A WC! Legend
Pinehurst, Ontario
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,595
 
Hails from Canada
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

I'm really not a fan of Payne's Grey because it's just as easy to mix up a good quality grey that can be strengthened or weakened as I need it. However, I do have M. Graham's version in my paint cupboard and use it when I'm teaching monochromatic studies. It is mixed from Pbk9 + PB29. While Prussian Blue has been known to experience fading from some brands, it doesn't seem to be an issue in this mixture. From my personal tests over 13 months in a South facing window, the colour did not fade.
__________________
Char

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. Leonardo DaVinci
Handbook Index ... Help for Newbies
Reply With Quote
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-29-2017, 10:24 AM
claude j greengrass's Avatar
claude j greengrass claude j greengrass is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,188
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

Nay! Go to handprint.com and scroll down to the table. Large number of formulas for mixing neutrals.
__________________
It is only on a basis of knowledge that we can become free to compose naturally. -- Bernard Dunstan
blog.jlk.net
Reply With Quote
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:29 AM
savras's Avatar
savras savras is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 192
 
Hails from Poland
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

W&N Payne's Gray has been tested by Mr MacEvoy of Handprint and received the best possible score - 8,8
Reply With Quote
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:31 AM
savras's Avatar
savras savras is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 192
 
Hails from Poland
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

Here is link to Handprint gray/black paint tests

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html
Reply With Quote
  #6   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:38 AM
painterbear's Avatar
painterbear painterbear is offline
Moderator
Oakwood, Ohio, near Dayton.
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 41,372
 
Hails from United States
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

My instructor, Nita Leland, who has written several books on Color in watercolor, discourages us from using Payne's Gray. She lets beginner's use it for learning about values in monochrome work, but, as Char said ^^^, you can mix much livelier and cleaner grays with the colors on your palette.

Sylvia
Reply With Quote
  #7   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-29-2017, 03:45 PM
CarolinaPal CarolinaPal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 152
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

I could mix a gray while sitting on a boat in a moat next to a goat eating a tub of oats (the goat, not me), but I don't want to. Whaaaa! Over 95% of my paints are single pigment paints, but on occasion, I'd like to be lazy and just grab a convenience mix.

I also have Sodalite and I have Blue Apatite, so I don't even need to mix a gray, but I don't love them like I love this W&N Payne's Gray. Full disclosure here - My favorite medium of old was charcoal and I've missed it. This Payne's seems to hit some sweet spot for me in values plus just a hint of color. When I used it, I used the other pigments from its mix to compliment it. Who among you is to say this love is wrong?

That said, while this love is not wrong, it may be fleeting. I don't know when Handprint tested W&N's Payne's Gray, but I went back and finally found the lightfast test I had seen. It was from early this year (2017), and it was by SilverMoss.

Look at the very bottom of page 5. The W&N Payne's Gray is the forth from the end, and it didn't fair so well.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...1302382&page=5

Now, who do we blame? Winsor & Newton for making a fugitive paint, or SilverMoss for letting us know? One of them is a heartbreaker.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-30-2017, 03:33 AM
Minerva C's Avatar
Minerva C Minerva C is online now
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,187
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

I like WN Paynes Gray. The WC marker inkluded. If I was going to have one WC marker it would be this one.
I also use other grays on my palette. Why mix if I don't have to, is my motto
__________________
C
Reply With Quote
  #9   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-30-2017, 12:30 PM
Yorky's Avatar
Yorky Yorky is online now
Administrator
ORMSKIRK, Lancashire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 89,059
 
Hails from United Kingdom
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

I haven't used it of late but it has a very wide dynamic range from the lightest grey to almost black.

Doug
Reply With Quote
  #10   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-30-2017, 02:47 PM
CarolinaPal CarolinaPal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 152
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minerva C
I like WN Paynes Gray. The WC marker inkluded. If I was going to have one WC marker it would be this one.
I also use other grays on my palette. Why mix if I don't have to, is my motto

Exactly, Minerva C gets it! Love that marker - and if I could only keep one, that would have been it! I bought the tube because of it. It was a beautiful, lively gray, right at my fingertips. A beautiful, lively, FUGITIVE gray. Blast you Winsor & Newton. This is like some pre-teen crush gone all kinds of sideways. I want to go to my bedroom, lock my door, and cry in my pillow! Yes, there will be other convenience mixes, I know, but none like my first love, W&N Payne's Gray. Next time, though, I will be wiser, I'll know which among these paints is not just beautiful, but has a history of stability BEFORE I open a tube and lay a kiss of paint across my paper. But for now, Whaaa!
Reply With Quote
  #11   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-30-2017, 04:06 PM
CarolinaPal CarolinaPal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 152
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorky
I haven't used it of late but it has a very wide dynamic range from the lightest grey to almost black.

Absolutely, that range of values is just perfect!

I mixed up a slew of grays last night, just trying to find one that would replace it AND work with my current painting. Despite all the many grays I tried, the only one that came close in color and intensity was the tried and true PB29 Ultramarine Blue and PBr7 Burnt Sienna. I took it to the blue side, and I was actually able to match the color fairly well. Yet, as close as close as my mix is, it still lacks in the deepest darks of the W&N. I'd have to glaze with my mix one or two more times to get it as dark. That's fine, but it doesn't feel as spontaneous that way, and creates more opportunity to screw something up. Trust me, it's not wise for me to open too many such windows. . .

So, I was thinking . . . what about adding a little black to this Ultramarine/Burnt Sienna combo? Not PBk6, that somehow seems to be the problem. Strange how there are so many convenience mixes that use it when it may be able to turn something with all lightfast paints, including itself, into something fugitive. I don't understand. In the meantime, I think I may get a PBk9 to try and add a bit of it to my mix to see if I can get something that splashes down with some really deep values from the getgo.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-30-2017, 05:23 PM
CharM's Avatar
CharM CharM is offline
A WC! Legend
Pinehurst, Ontario
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,595
 
Hails from Canada
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

I just can't wrap my head around the variety of pigments used in this Paint Name. There is no standardization and some of the colours don't make sense. Holbein, for example, is still using a fugitive red! Daniel Smith included a yellow! I realize this thread is specific to W&N, but I thought I'd share this:

Paynes Grey
  • Da Vinci – PBk6 Lamp Black + PB27 Prussian Blue
  • Daniel Smith – PBk9 Ivory Black + PB29 Ultramarine Blue + PY42 Yellow Ochre
  • Holbein – PR83 Alizarin Crimson + PB27 Antwerp Blue + PB29 Ultramarine Blue + PBk7 Lamp Black
  • M. Graham – PBk6 Lamp Black + PB29 Ultramarine Blue
  • Maimeri Blue – PB29 Ultramarine Blue + PBk6 Lamp Black
  • QoR – PBk7 Lamp Black + PB15:3 Phthalo Blue + PV19 Quinacridone Violet
  • Schminke – PBk6 Lamp Black + PB15:6 Phthalo Blue + PB15.2 Phthalo Blue
  • Sennelier – PBk7 Lamp Black + PB15:1 Phthalo Blue + PV19 Quiacridone Violet
  • Winsor & Newton – PB15 Phathlo Blue + PV19 Quinacridone Violet + PBk6 Lamp Black

Carolina Pal... check out how many times Lamp Black, either PBk6 or 7 was used in all these mixes!
__________________
Char

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art. Leonardo DaVinci
Handbook Index ... Help for Newbies
Reply With Quote
  #13   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-30-2017, 06:09 PM
CarolinaPal CarolinaPal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 152
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

It's madness, isn't it, Char? Historically, I think Payne's Gray used PY42 or PY43, so I'd think more of them than D. Smith would include it somehow - though I don't know how much I'd like that shade of gray - esp now that I've fallen in love... But yeah, there is no consistency here, is there?

PBk6 should be lightfast, it is so odd that may be causing some paints to become fugitive. I say MAY because I don't really know. Maybe the problem is something else? However, aside from that issue, it bothers me that most of these companies have chosen to mostly use PBk6 and even PBk7 in most of their paint mixes - when both of these blacks are listed as potential carcinogens. PBk9, on the other hand, is listed as safe. Dear Paint Manufactures, More of the safe stuff and less of the bad, Please!
Reply With Quote
  #14   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-04-2017, 10:02 AM
jyaan jyaan is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 162
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

For me it's pointless. There are many easy ways to mix darks if you have a palette that's set up well.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-04-2017, 10:24 AM
MarialenaS's Avatar
MarialenaS MarialenaS is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,933
 
Re: W&N Payne's Gray - Yay or Nay?

I don't use Payne's Gray at all. I mix my own dark grey black that is made of PR264 and PG7 . Adding to this mix a bit of B. Umber gives a nice Sepia colour that is lightfast, semi transparent and doesn't contain black which makes mixes look dull.
Mixing the own made Sepia with Ultramarine gives the blackest black ever.
__________________
My website
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:40 PM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.