WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Casein, Gouache, and Egg Tempera
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply  
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:12 AM
Misspris Misspris is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 9
 
Student grade gouache suggestions

I have started learning about Gouache, and have bought some paint. I have a Caran D'ach school line pan set and the introductory set of 6 tubes from Winsor and Newton Designer gouche. I would like to get more colors, but both of those brands are pretty expensive, and most people recommend getting the best quality gouache you can afford, with suggestions of Schminkie, W&N, MG, DaVinci, but those are too expensive for me right now.

Are there any student grade brands that are higher quality, I could afford. For instance I saw Lukas brand gouach for a 12 set of 20ml for 19.99, does anybody have experience with this brand? I have their professional watercolors which I really enjoy.

It seems that there is only cheap gouache or expensive gouache. What is a good intermediate brand or set.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-26-2017, 04:35 PM
Kosmon's Avatar
Kosmon Kosmon is online now
Senior Member
Colorado
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 412
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

I have some MGraham's and a couple DaVinci's, so can't speak from experience regarding other brands, but I can share some thoughts from looking at other artists' work and reading reviews.

Lukas gets decent reviews for the most part. They have two different 12-color sets though, and I'm not sure they're the same paint. The Professional Set of 20ml tubes are their Gouache Extra-Fine, and would probably be a good foundation for you. The Intro Set of 12ml tubes I have a feeling may be their old Studio line paints, but I've never tried to confirm this.

LeFranc & Bourgeois Linel are inexpensive 25mm tubes, and at least from a reliable manufacturer.

Both Royal Talens and Maimeri are also from respected manufacturers, and 20ml tubes.

(Talens also offers a very inexpensive "Creations" line of gouache, which I'd guess are scholastic grade, maybe not much - if any - better than Royal & Langnickel, Reeves, Marie's and suchlike 24-tubes-for-$10 sets.)

Michael Jarman, an artist here on WetCanvas, works mostly in pastel, but for about a year not too long ago regularly posted a series of really nice gouache paintings (look him up). He spoke highly of Turner gouache, and certainly got good results with them. They're like $6.49/25ml tube compared to Lukas at $4.99/20ml tube.

If the Lukas set of 12 you mentioned is their "Extra Fine" 20ml Professional Set for $19.99, I'd start there*. You'll get 6 colors you already have in your W&N set, but you'll also get a lot of paintings out of it, and enough mixing options to figure out what you think you're missing, which you can then fill in with a few open stock tubes.

*(if it's the Intro Set, I'd check with the vendor to make sure they're the Extra-Fine as opposed to the Studio line.)

Hope that's somewhat helpful!

Kos
__________________
Hemmed & Hawn
from
PERESTRELLO's BOX
Root, Bone, Sticks & Stone
Reply With Quote
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-27-2017, 03:49 PM
Boafamily's Avatar
Boafamily Boafamily is offline
Enthusiast
Jacksonville, Florida
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,622
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

I saw the Lukas brand gouache set of 12 of 12ml for $6.99 at Jerry's Artarama Online Discount Art Supplies and Materials Superstore.

The Professional Set of 20ml tubes are my go to gouache line and I love it.

I have been using this line for several years now and I extremely happy with the results it renders...
__________________
www.anthonykwilson.net
Reply With Quote
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-27-2017, 04:55 PM
Kosmon's Avatar
Kosmon Kosmon is online now
Senior Member
Colorado
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 412
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

I sent an e-mail to Jerry's this morning asking if the Intro Set is the same "Gouache Extra Fine" as in the Professional Set. Will share the answer here.

Kos
__________________
Hemmed & Hawn
from
PERESTRELLO's BOX
Root, Bone, Sticks & Stone
Reply With Quote
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-28-2017, 08:51 AM
Misspris Misspris is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 9
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

Thank you for all the replies.

I was trying to figure out the difference from the Lukas Pro set as well. They both say Designers Gouache, and I know one difference, and the price reflects that is that the Intro set is 12ml and the pro set is 20ml and two of the colors of the set are different, the Intro has permenant green deepish, and violet bluish, the pro set as Viridian, and raw umber instead. So I'm thinking that viridian is a single pigment and the permenant green deepish isn't? So maybe the Pro is a separate line with better pigment choices.
Kosmon, I would love to see the reply from Jerry's once you get it. Thank you.

Boa family, While I was on Jerry's Artarama site, looking at the stats again, I saw that they now have the Intro set on sale for only $6.99 !!! Pretty hard to pass that price up.

I also saw on Schminke's website that they have a line of Ackedemie Designers gouache which I am figuring is there "student" grade just like Ackedemie watercolors are their student grade, but I can't seem to find a retailer that sells them, does anybody have experience with this gouache?
Reply With Quote
  #6   Report Bad Post  
Old 09-28-2017, 04:51 PM
Kosmon's Avatar
Kosmon Kosmon is online now
Senior Member
Colorado
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 412
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

No answer yet, but here's a link to a brochure with the colour chart for Lukas gouache (on pages 4 and 5), with pigments listed.

http://www.lukasdobrasil.com.br/pdf/guache-folder.pdf

Kos
__________________
Hemmed & Hawn
from
PERESTRELLO's BOX
Root, Bone, Sticks & Stone
Reply With Quote
  #7   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-05-2017, 08:58 AM
Misspris Misspris is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 9
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

Just a little update. I purchased the Lukas Designers Gouache intro set. The tubes do not look like their 20ml counterparts from the pro set, which are the shiney metal. These are plastic, and green. It says on them Lukas Designers Gouache Art and Design. The Pro set states on the tube Extra-Fine, the packaging only says Lukas. I tried to do my research again, and came across Lukas's website, which the only gouache they show is their Studio gouache. Luka's studio line is student grade. They look similar (colors of tubes) to the gouache I received except it actually says Studio on the tubes on their website, so not the same as the tubes I received, though the paint inside might be, I still don't know. The Pro tubes Look like Fine art, whereas the intro set tubes look like student grade. The only info Jerry's gives on the intro set is to say that these 11ml tubes are a great way to get familiar with Lukas Designer Gouache, not Extra-Fine gouache, and no where in the Literature on the site does it refer to Luka's Gouache as Extra-Fine, all reference state Designers Gouache. Also looking at the color chart is will give pigment and lightfast info but it says for 20ml, which makes me think the 11ml tubes aren't the same. I asked the question on Jerry's site, no reply yet.

I am getting very frustrated with the non transparency of this company on the Lukas brand. I had bought Lukas 1862 watercolors. Lukas refomulated their watercolors for better quality and lightfastness years ago. I bought individual pans so i knew exactly what i was buying because the sets they were selling (few months ago) were old stock with old formulation, though they didn't say that on the website, and the product and packaging is the exact same. I only knew because the colors included with the set you couldn't buy individually, thus no pigment or lightfast info to look up, because they had been discountinued. Upon receiving my order I noticed some of the colors i got the lightfast ratings did not correspond to the information given on Jerry's site. I made sure I got all highly lightfast pigments and the couple I received where only good lightfast, but they were the same colors I ordered, so I knew I received old stock. Upon contacting Jerry's they said they would replace them. Several calls I still don't have a refund or replaced pans. I gave up.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-05-2017, 10:31 AM
Boafamily's Avatar
Boafamily Boafamily is offline
Enthusiast
Jacksonville, Florida
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,622
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

Jerry's has always been good with making any issue or problems right, so I would say this is very out of character for the company as I have had numerous defects replace over the course of 5 years and they have always delivered 100%.
__________________
www.anthonykwilson.net
Reply With Quote
  #9   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-05-2017, 01:09 PM
Kosmon's Avatar
Kosmon Kosmon is online now
Senior Member
Colorado
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 412
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

Sorry - forgot about the Jerry's/Lukas thing. They responded quickly to my e-mail, but the answer wasn't specific enough to be helpful. Even less so in the light of Misspris's experience.

Me - "Can you please tell me if the Gouache in the Lukas Intro Set of 12ml tubes is the same "Gouache Extra Fine" as in the Professional Set of 20ml tubes? Thanks!"

Jerry's - "The intro set is just a smaller set of paints for this brand. Watercolor qouache is used most specifically by designers and illustrators because it produces matte artwork that is most ideal for photography, because there are no artwork reflections to compensate for. I think they dropped the name to designers gouache and are now calling the large set "pro" because it has a lot more paint - you go through gouache a lot faster than watercolor. So the difference between the intro set and the pro set is the amount of paint in the set. I hope this helps!"

Do the Intro tubes not even have pigment info on them?

Kos
__________________
Hemmed & Hawn
from
PERESTRELLO's BOX
Root, Bone, Sticks & Stone

Last edited by Kosmon : 10-05-2017 at 01:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-06-2017, 09:35 PM
JamieWG's Avatar
JamieWG JamieWG is offline
A WC! Legend
New York's Hudson Valley
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 24,932
 
Hails from United States
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

My experience with Lukas Gouache is that you really have to do your homework and research the pigments. Many are mixes for what should be a single pigment or pigment substitutions (aka hues), and their White is VERY yellowish compared with other brands of white gouache. This is true of many gouache brands though -- buyer beware always! I think a limited palette of artist grade paint, with pigments you know, is a better alternative to many tubes of lesser quality paint. You'll have more control over your palette that way, better harmonized paintings, less chalky-looking work, and will learn a ton about color mixing. FWIW, Da Vinci is a good buy (large tubes, lower price), but again, you have to check the pigments for each color and be sure you're getting what the color name implies! Another thing you can do is use artist grade watercolors with opaque pigments for the lighter colors, and a good white gouache to lighten/tint/mix them with. That actually gives you superior paint, since it doesn't have all the cheap opacifiers that manufacturers put into the gouache tubes (and still charge you a lot of money for!)

Here are four little sketches on toned paper, done on a recent trip to New Hampshire. All the paints were watercolors, except for the white. Looks just like gouache, right?

__________________
My Blog/Website/Paintings/Demos/Studio Tours/Paintmaking/Pochade Boxes
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.

Last edited by JamieWG : 10-06-2017 at 09:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-09-2017, 09:58 AM
Misspris Misspris is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 9
 
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

JamieWG, those are lovely little sketches. I was thinking about using watercolors and adding white to make them opaque, like gouache. But I was also thinking that I didn't want to end up wasting paint as you use a lot more when painting with gouache, and artist grade watercolors are expensive. Wouldn't I get more bang for my buck if I just bought gouache. Or are watercolors so highly pigmented that their tinting strength is so that you end up using less than you would with gouache? Perhaps with student grade gouache that is so, but I thought that good quality gouache uses higher concentrations of pigment to get the opacity, thus containing more pigment than watercolor? Or does it end up being the same, and using watercolors gives you the freedom to use it as watercolors or gouache (when adding white)?
Thank you so much for all your information.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-09-2017, 04:11 PM
JamieWG's Avatar
JamieWG JamieWG is offline
A WC! Legend
New York's Hudson Valley
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 24,932
 
Hails from United States
Re: Student grade gouache suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misspris
....... I was thinking about using watercolors and adding white to make them opaque, like gouache. But I was also thinking that I didn't want to end up wasting paint as you use a lot more when painting with gouache, and artist grade watercolors are expensive. Wouldn't I get more bang for my buck if I just bought gouache. Or are watercolors so highly pigmented that their tinting strength is so that you end up using less than you would with gouache? Perhaps with student grade gouache that is so, but I thought that good quality gouache uses higher concentrations of pigment to get the opacity, thus containing more pigment than watercolor?

Artist grade watercolor has more pigment than artist grade gouache. Gouache does not use higher pigmentation to get the opacity! This is a common misconception. That's why WN Gouache is a little cheaper per ml than WN watercolor, and ditto for Holbein, etc. You're paying for their pigment, and watercolor has more pigment because it does not contain the cheap opacifiers that the gouache has.
Quote:
Or does it end up being the same, and using watercolors gives you the freedom to use it as watercolors or gouache (when adding white)?
Thank you so much for all your information.

I do feel that using watercolor gives me the versatility of working transparently and/or with opacity. Why limit myself? Also, gouache does not rewet as easily as watercolor, so any savings would probably go by the wayside as that gouache dries out and forms hard chunks in your palette that cannot be rewet and fall out. That being said, gouache does have the advantage of already being opaque. If you're not interested in working transparently at all, that can be a plus for you.

Another option (which I still do from time to time) is to use watercolor for the dark pigments and gouache for the light pigments (cadmium yellow, cadmium orange, and white). I love working with transparent darks, so I actually prefer to use watercolors for the darks.

I'd just suggest if you go the watercolor route that you keep the palette with white goauche separate from your transparent watercolor palette. Once white gets into your transparent colors, it's Game Over for transparency! I have two labeled palettes for transparent watercolor and opaque. I try not to let white enter my transparent palette. Some of the pigments in them are different too.

One thing you can do to lower the cost is to look for artist grade paint that is less expensive, and use a more limited palette. You have to really do some homework for that, but you've got a lot of experience and brains to pick here on Wetcanvas to help you out! I've found the Lukas Aquarelle 1862 watercolor Cadmium Yellow Light to be quite excellent, and it comes in large 24ml tubes. Side by side with other brands, it easily holds its own at a far lower price point. (That's not the case with all the Lukas colors, but it is for that one!) You really do need Cadmiums on the light side if you're going to use watercolor as gouache. If I need to buy Winsor Newton or Da Vinci, and it's a color I use a lot, I go for the 37ml tubes to get the extra savings of buying in quantity.
__________________
My Blog/Website/Paintings/Demos/Studio Tours/Paintmaking/Pochade Boxes
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:07 PM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.