WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > The Learning Center > Color Theory and Mixing
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-20-2017, 04:59 AM
DMArtist7's Avatar
DMArtist7 DMArtist7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 284
 
Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Hi everyone,

Before I start, my apologies if it has been posted already in the forum, I've tried to search and couldn't find any answers to my satisfaction.

I've been exploring in oil and love it! I've collected quite some colors. I know I can get more, but I'm focusing on primary colors for now since I'm not that rich. Maybe I'll make another thread with my current tubes I have and see what you think I'm missing, but for now I'm happy with what I have except for yellow....

Lemme explain the situation. I have 4 yellows at the moment.
Two Winton Oil Colours, cadmium yellow hue (py65) and cadmium lemon hue (py3, py74) - I got them like 5 years ago after being in shock when seeing the price for real cadmiums in Winsor & Newton Artists' Oil Colour line (most of my tubes are of that brand/quality). It's kinda ironic because I already got cadmium red. I know it's expensive too, but I don't remember why I got it anyways.

What I hate about cadmium yellow hue is that it's way too "orange" for me, but again it's a nice color to make orange with red.
Cadmium lemon hue is other story... I'm eating this tube like there's no tomorrow. It mixes weakly (I blame it on the student quality of that tube?) and it dulls down when mixing, which bought me to buy those 2 new tubes-

Rembrandt (cheaper than W&N) transparent yellow (py128, lemon replacement) and W&N Indian Yellow Deep(PY150, warmer yellow replacement).

They mix beautifully and keeps high chroma. And I like the fact I can add white to it to make it opaque...

However, I can't help it, but to wonder if I'm misjudging cadmium yellows because I got hue version of them and PLUS they are of student quality. I've read about how many people love cadmium yellows and that they are not replaceable.

I am going to have to replace my Cadmium Lemon Hue tube soon, it's going out anyways and was wondering if I should just go for the real thing or just stick with transparent versions since they are cheaper. Therefore, are they worth the price? I was thinking of getting Cadmium yellow light since it seems to be a good compensation in warm and cool yellow?

Maybe you guys have more experience on it? I'd appreciate any ideas, ramblings, feedback, experiences, or whatever you may have. Thank you so much in advance!

Last edited by DMArtist7 : 07-20-2017 at 05:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-20-2017, 09:22 AM
Mythrill Mythrill is offline
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,890
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMArtist7
However, I can't help it, but to wonder if I'm misjudging cadmium yellows because I got hue version of them and PLUS they are of student quality. I've read about how many people love cadmium yellows and that they are not replaceable.

That's exactly what's going on. If you check at the Winsor & Newton acrylics' site, you'll notice Cadmiums ARE less orange than Azos, and your hue is a blend of two Azos. If you want to evaluate a certain paint, always check the original.

Also, if you want to check a good lemon yellow that's not a Cadmium, try Bismuth Yellow (PY 184). It has a slightly lower tinting strength, but it's an excellent lemon yellow and it has excellent lightfastness AND weatherfastness (genuine cadmium cannot be exposed to dampness and light simultaneously, or else it fades).
Reply With Quote
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-20-2017, 10:59 AM
Pinguino's Avatar
Pinguino Pinguino is offline
Enthusiast
Monterey Bay area, California
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,023
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

If your main concern is a "primary yellow," rather than matching the hue of Cadmium Yellow, I think your best bet is PY74. W&N calls it "Winsor Yellow" in the artist-grade paints. Your existing "Cadmium Lemon Hue" is similar, but with a slightly different hue. PY74 is much less costly than real Cadmium colors.

PY74 is semi-transparent, which is a neither here nor there classification. I find that it does the job. If I need a really opaque yellow to go on top of something originally painted in a darker color, then it is easy enough to first apply Titanium White, let it dry, then yellow over the white.

PY74 is also available in other brands, with different marketing names.

Note that PY74 is often used as the yellow in CMYK printing, which says something about its versatility.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-20-2017, 11:50 AM
DMArtist7's Avatar
DMArtist7 DMArtist7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 284
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Mythrill, aye that's true. I bought them years ago when I was totally a newbie and got scared of the price. Wish I didn't make that mistake, but hey I'm learning. Bismuth Yellow's fully opaque, right? Since I already have transparent versions, I'd at least like to have some opaque equivalent of yellow to complete it ya know?

Pinguino, yeah I'm following CMY color wheel since I like how it gives way higher chroma when mixing the colors. I always can dull the color down, but not other way around. Plus I like mixing so that's a win win situation. I got all transparent version of magneta-red color, yellow, and phthalo blue (GS) for cyan. I just feel like I could use a full opaque yellow to mix with for laying the highlights. Plus I just can't help it but feeling a little left out when everyone's talking about it. I heard Winsor Yellow is a great color and would love to try it, but I'm looking for full opaque version with strong coverage, not semi-transparent since I already have transparent yellows in my palette. I'll explore it in the near future though! Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-20-2017, 12:15 PM
cb3 cb3 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 549
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Why I have Cad. Yellow on my oil palette.
1. Opacity 2. Lightfasteness

Mostly use Cad. Yellow Light, sometimes Lemon - dependents on the brand as the can look different. Sometimes will add redder/warmer version like Cad. Yellow Med. or Deep or Cad. Orange. (Again the brand differ as to what they call Lt, Med., Deep). Cad. Yellow Light is the main one I use.

I use more affordable brands of Cad. Yellow that I get on sale. Gamblin, Utrecht, Richeson Shiva (Shiva has a little weaker in opacity than the others but still good) These brand help with the "sticker shock" (price). Gamblin does a really good job with Cad Yellows and Reds.

Last edited by cb3 : 07-20-2017 at 12:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:28 PM
Gigalot's Avatar
Gigalot Gigalot is online now
A Local Legend
Tbilisi, Georgia
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,715
 
Hails from Georgia
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Winsor Lemon, PY3 is a replacement for Cadmium Lemon. Not opaque, but can be boosted with Titanium White.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-21-2017, 03:35 AM
DMArtist7's Avatar
DMArtist7 DMArtist7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 284
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

cb3, yeah, I'm thinking about it mainly for opacity so I can get a feeling of both extremes (opacity and transparency) and use it to my advantage. I might have to look into other brands for price's sake like I did with transparent yellow. I still love W&N's buttery feeling - Rembrandt has that too oily feeling I don't like, but for that purpose it'll do.

Gigalot, thanks. I've heard it's a good replacement and will have to investigate that in the near future, but like I said, I already have two transparent yellow sets I can boost with white. I'm looking for opaque yellow with high coverage for a change.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-21-2017, 08:06 AM
DMArtist7's Avatar
DMArtist7 DMArtist7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 284
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Update: I decided to go ahead and get Cadmium Yellow Pale from W&N line, I found a store that had 20% off sale on it so it was even cheaper than Gamblin. Plus, I already have transparent yellows to play with. I'll only use expensive pigments when absolutely needed.

And of course with 20% off sale, I couldn't resist myself and got few other opaque colors to play with. A bit pricy, but I just want them!

Thank you everyone for your help!
Reply With Quote
  #9   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-22-2017, 10:43 AM
Nomad Z's Avatar
Nomad Z Nomad Z is online now
Senior Member
Scotland
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 230
 
Hails from Scotland
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Back when I was using Wintons (after starting with el-cheapo Reeves mini-tubes), it was the cadmium hues that led me to try the real pigments in artist quality paints. I had the same thing as you, especially the poor chroma and muddiness when mixing. I switched to W&N artist paints one day when I went to buy a decent easel and found the shop had a 'buy two get one free' offer on paints. I snapped up 6 tubes of various series 4 W&N paints, mostly cadmiums, and never looked back. I then gradually replaced all of the Wintons and eventually gave them all to a friend that was just getting started (with the warning the cadmium hues aren't so great).

Cadmium Yellow is quite orangey - I mostly use the Lemon or Pale versions.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:24 AM
DMArtist7's Avatar
DMArtist7 DMArtist7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 284
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Nomad Z, that's good to know that I'm not just the one who has this experience. I'm trying to slowly replace all my Winton with real stuff. Although I didn't mind Winton's permament green, it's way too saturated on its own that I like muddy mixes there, but maybe one day I'll get phthalo green to replace it. I would have done that already but I couldn't decide between blue or yellow shade. Too many choices I tell ya! And for cadmium yellow, I got myself the pale version. I think it's a good compensation and I heard that pale one is more opaque than lemon anyways.

So a lesson for anyone who consider getting Winton to start out, please don't. You're better off with artist quality, even if it means fewer colors to start with.

Last edited by DMArtist7 : 07-23-2017 at 01:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:08 AM
Nomad Z's Avatar
Nomad Z Nomad Z is online now
Senior Member
Scotland
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 230
 
Hails from Scotland
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

I think the Wintons are generally quite good for getting started on a budget. The colours that are series 1 or 2 in the artist grade work pretty well (I believe they use the same pigments, but with less pigment load). The substitutes for the higher series is where they fall down. They're also a bit stiffer than the artist grade, presumably due to the use of fillers to compensate for the reduced proportion of pigment. That may or may not be a good thing - for some colours, reducing to a creamy or inky consistency can mean los of saturation or opacity, but it also means being able to do heavy impasto for sensible money.

At a half to a third of the cost of series 1 and 2, they're a viable means of getting started, especially if one considers that the beginner will be buying everything else at the same time. If budget is less constrained, though, then I would agree that going to artist quality paints is better.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:06 PM
DMArtist7's Avatar
DMArtist7 DMArtist7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 284
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Good point Nomad Z
Reply With Quote
  #13   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-26-2017, 04:24 AM
DMArtist7's Avatar
DMArtist7 DMArtist7 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 284
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Just thought I'd update here just in case anyone wanted to know. I got my cadmium yellow pale from W&N. Let's say I'm very happy with it. I did few test mix and I didn't need as much yellow to get it yellow like with other yellows I have and I like the fact that it's opaque. Very useful for some situations. Don't get me wrong, transparent pigments are beautiful, but they're weak in showing when mixed so I ended up using way more and eat my tube that way. It's like it was absorbed rather than showing anything.
Same for student quality cadmium hues, they just don't mix well at all. Very muddy.

Real stuff mix beautifully! Even mixes green just fine (was afraid of that since I didn't get lemon version yet) so I think for most case, it's a great yellow to start with. However, I think in near future I'll get myself cadmium lemon or py74 like you guys suggested to complete it.

I'm just glad I know I won't have to eat(not literally ofc ) cadmium yellow as much as I do with other yellows so in a way, money isn't an issue. Do I even make sense?

Well, I hope my thoughts will help you guys out in your decision making. Good luck with your artistic adventure!

Last edited by DMArtist7 : 07-26-2017 at 04:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:29 PM
Mythrill Mythrill is offline
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,890
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

If you want to save money, you can buy Cadmium powder and make your own pigment. However, be careful, since Cadmium is carcinogenic when inhaled. So you should wear a mask. Also, if you make your own pigment, do not dispose of the waste in your sink.

Again, Bismuth Yellow (PY 184) is a great alternative, with only covering power being a bit lower than Cadmiums. All other properties are similar.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Report Bad Post  
Old 07-26-2017, 03:31 PM
SamL SamL is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 481
 
Re: Cadmium Yellow is it worth the $?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythrill
Bismuth Yellow (PY 184) is a great alternative, with only covering power being a bit lower than Cadmiums. All other properties are similar.
On paper, Bismuth Yellow (PY 184) looks much paler than Cadmium Yellow (PY 35).

Bismuth Yellow (PY 184): chroma = 69
Cadmium Yellow (PY 35): chroma = 78

Cadmium Yellow (PY 35) looks "more yellow".

In practice, is the difference less profound than on paper?

Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:20 AM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.