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View Poll Results: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette
Yes: I use it with almost every painting 94 28.06%
Sometimes: I can not find a replacement color 57 17.01%
Never: it is a fugitive color and its use is irresponsible 184 54.93%
Voters: 335. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-01-2013, 10:17 AM
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Cariboo Bill Cariboo Bill is offline
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Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

I am setting up this poll to provide data in an email discussion with Daniel Smith paints, they claim that Aliz Crimson is on the VAST MAJORITY of artists palettes. In my own acquaintances it is on only beginner palettes who have been taught by an old fashioned watercolor workshop person.
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Last edited by Cariboo Bill : 03-01-2013 at 10:25 AM. Reason: fix
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:28 AM
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CharM CharM is offline
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

This is a great poll, Bill... I wish you'd also included Aureolin!

My basic palette does not include any known fugitive colours or toxic pigments... ok... I suspect that most are toxic to some degree if we eat them, but some are extremely so! Since my kitties drink my paint water, I try to be as vigilant as possible.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:19 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Way back when I was a student I bought alizarin crimson in both oil and watercolor because it was on the material lists for my classes. A while later I came across handprint and gain both an interest and understanding of the paints themselves that I was using. I printed out many pages of paint analysis and showed them to my watercolor teacher because I thought she'd be as interested as I was, but she dismissed it as "just somebody's opinions". Testable results aren't opinions. Whether you like a color or not is, but if you can demonstrate a physical aspect of it then that's a fact.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:17 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

my kitties drink my paint water too!!!! but if its too dirty i shoo them away.

strangely i dont use the crimson much. dont know why. it is a little heavy and strong.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:18 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Oh my, I remain the only poor sod who ticked "Always!"

Only I've just discovered that the tube I thought was Alizarin Crimson is in fact Madder. Alternatively, I use Aliz. Crimson from Dr. Martin's Hydrus, which say they're light-fast.

I have to say that much of my art is for reproduction rather than display. If it's scanned and printed fugitive paints aren't much of an issue. When I paint commissioned pictures, I make sure I use permanent paint. And still I always warn the client to use UV frames and not expose any paintings to direct sunlight for years - just in case they want to make it an heirloom of their house.

Interestingly, my dirty paint water is about the only water our cat doesn't drink. The toilet, watering cans, the kids' old plastic sandbox in the garden - everything except my painting water. I think that's good.
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:50 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

I use Aureolin, Opera Rose, Rose Madder Genuine, and Alizarin Crimson in every painting I paint on the underside of my toilet seat, and the bottom of my bird cage. These are proper and fitting locations for these colours. YMMV
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:09 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

I never use it and never will, but for non-archival uses, there's nothing irresponsible about it. From the strict viewpoint of the fine artist selling an original painting, yes, I regard it's use as lazy, sloppy or irresponsible, but people seem to assume that is a given when it isn't.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:25 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Bill, is it possible to add to the poll questions? I use Aliz Crimson (the permanent kind), but not with every painting, and I use it a LOT for mixing! I have two Aliz, one is light, bright and beautiful (Da Vinci) and the other is powerful, strong, and deep, and I use it with care (Old Holland). But I can't respond to your poll, because it does not include a question I can answer

Margarete
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:36 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Opinions this way some pigments (not these) i think are depend lot who made paint and who made pigment for paint.
ps. i dont also understand why one art supply guru uses aureolin. expect if i remember correctly is important who made paint! btw aureolin is hue what i want test and i know one brand where is avaialble in cheaply. and i dont also understand why astm get good results for it i think.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:41 PM
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Smile Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

I took a class long ago (20+ yrs.) in oil painting and chose a Dalhart Windberg painting to copy as a guideline. It was my first introduction to the alizarin crimson color. I was instructed to use it and a yellow to create depth in a swamp background. I thought it handled in sort of a magical way. A daughter has that old painting hanging in her home and the alizarin crimson is amazingly still holding its purplish color in the distant swampish background. I’ve tried to stay away from it in watercolors largely due to the bad press it gets on this forum. However, the color must cast some magical spell over lots of artists if the manufactures were forced to come out with “permanent alizarin crimson”.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:36 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

I had alizarin crimson when I first began painting (because I didn't know anything about fugitive/non fugitive colors). But once I read that this is a color that will gradually fade and change, I never replaced it.

I did buy a tube of permanent alizarin crimson, but to me it wasn't the same color and there are many more reds that I like better, so it sits in my paint box unused.

Sylvia
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:40 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Quote:
Originally Posted by pa-paw
A daughter has that old painting hanging in her home and the alizarin crimson is amazingly still holding its purplish color in the distant swampish background.

As far as I know, the lightfastness can vary, depending on the medium the pigment is used in, with pigments in oil paints being a lot more lightfast than watercolor.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:56 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

NO!

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Old 03-01-2013, 04:18 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Bill are you asking about all brands or just about DS paints?
If so perhaps you could add the pigment number to the poll.
A lot of people will be using Carmine in Holbein for example which is PR83 and feeling pleased that they are not using Aliz! when in fact they have the same fugitive paint.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:13 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldSeven
Alternatively, I use Aliz. Crimson from Dr. Martin's Hydrus, which say they're light-fast.

Unfortunately, if you listen to the marketing speels of various companies, everyone's paints are the most lightfast and most concentrated paints made only from the finest pigments and used by professional artists. I looked around just now and couldn't find any pigment information for the Hydrus watercolors. None of the catalogs I looked at had pigment information and their own site's color chart failed to provide any either.

In one catalog I found a vague mention of what might be in them- "These are pigment based paints made with lightfast pigments such as quinacridone and Phthlocyanine." Okay, that doesn't really say a whole lot. Phathlocyanine? Is it PB15, PB16, PB17, PG7, or PG36? Same with quinacridone, except that not all quinacridones actually are lightfast. PR122 is a quinacridone that seems to come in multiple varieties and at least one is rated by Daniel Smith as "fugitive" in their line. Which paints use these anyways? What's in everything that doesn't have one of those? As far as I can tell they just don't say.

Given how little information is apparently available on what's actually in them, unless I just haven't looked in the right place, I wouldn't trust these. Maybe try contacting them directly for pigment information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.L. Schaefer
I use Aliz Crimson (the permanent kind)

If it's "permanent alizarin crimson" then it's simply a different paint because names are just names that companies give to their products, and can sometimes mean little to nothing. The specific "alizarin crimson" in question here is made from PR83. Any product called "permanent alizarin crimson" is either made from a different pigment entirely or a mixture of different pigments. What pigments are used is up to each company to pick and choose which ones they think mimic the actual alizarin crimson most closely.

What you're using are both good choices if they're the paints I think they are. The Da Vinci paint should be "Quinacridone Alizarin Crimson" which is PV19 and something a lot of other companies would call quinacridone rose. The Old Holland paint should be "Alizarin Crimson Lake Extra" which is a mix of PR177, PV19, and PBr23. Old Holland sticks the word "extra" at the end of paint names where other companies would put the word "hue" if the paint is made from a pigment or mix of pigments in substitution for the original pigment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbareola
As far as I know, the lightfastness can vary, depending on the medium the pigment is used in, with pigments in oil paints being a lot more lightfast than watercolor.

Yes, I've read many times that the oil coating is suppose to protect the pigments from at least some kinds of damage more so than in watercolor. I think it may have been air pollution, but maybe light too.
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