WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > The Learning Center > Color Theory and Mixing
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-04-2009, 04:05 PM
gunzorro's Avatar
gunzorro gunzorro is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
Simi Valley, California
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,312
 
Hails from United States
Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

At Einion's request for additional info regarding oil paint characteristics and differences between genuine Naples Yellow and what is often touted as the "hue" version, PBr24, I was inspired to produce this comparison sheet and give some of my observations.

The first point I'd like to address is that PBr24 is often labeled "Naples Yellow" in various brands that refuse to produce "toxic" paints made with lead and other metal pigments. Even Michael Harding lists it as such, even though he makes two versions shown here of genuine stuff!

I feel it is unfortunate that PBr24 is associated with the concept of "hue", or imitation, because that generally means "cheap replacement" in the nomenclature of lower quality artist and student brands.

PBr24 is an outstanding pigment and deserves greater respect standing on its own. Even to call it "Gold Ochre" or some other misdirected term is unwarranted, as it behaves quite a bit differently from natural earths -- more like a synthetic Mars color. Despite the lack of respect it normally gets, in this thread it will be happily promoted simply by its pigment name whenever possible.

All the samples of PBr24 shown here are very opaque, nearly equal to cadmiums in covering power. All samples have excellent pigment load.

The column on the left shows five examples of undiluted single pigment PBr24. From top to bottom:

Vasari Tuscan Yellow
Mussini Naples Yellow Deep
Old Holland Naples Yellow Deep Extra
Vasari Naples Orange
Harding Naples Yellow (quote marks added for ironic purpose)

For those unfamiliar with my procedure: I mix up the original paint "nut" with my palette knife -- to the paint remaining on the end of the knife, I pick up a roughly equal amount of white paint and mix these together 50/50. To that new mix on the end of the knife, I again add an equal amount of white, and so on. This gives a good idea of the hue and the relative tinting strength.

The white used is fairly neutral in strength, hue and opacity -- a mixture of about 50/50 lead + titanium with some Graham Walnut Alkyd added on the palette to improve mixing. I base the photo color balance on this white.



Comments on the PBr24 paints:

Vasari Tuscan Yellow -- Very deep yellow, moving toward orange, and strong tinting strength. Very smooth and easy to brush. An outstanding color like no other in my collection.

Mussini Naples Yellow Deep -- Most muted of the samples shown, with moderate tinting strength. Closest color match to genuine Naples Yellow Dark versions, but slightly darker and stronger tinting. Slightly stiffer consistency than Vasari, but still creamy and not waxy.

Old Holland Naples Yellow Deep Extra -- Slightly lower chroma, but intense tinting strength -- runner-up to Harding for best tinting strength. Very stiff and firm, but not waxy.

Vasari Naples Orange -- This particular sample is atypical of the consistency of the Vasari line -- it shows as being "soupy". Despite that very long consistency, it has very good tinting strength and wonderful blending. Slightly stronger than the Mussini, but similar hue.

Harding Naples Yellow -- I rate this sample as the best of the choices shown here. Chroma is intense and tinting strength is unsurpassed. Wonderful orange hue in the tints.

If I were to choose two from this selection, it would be Vasari's Tuscan Yellow at the top, and Harding's Naples Yellow at the bottom.

************

Genuine Naples Yellow

I've added Blockx Venetian Red to a set of mixes with the various Naples offerings. The reasoning being that most people attracted to genuine Naples are likely purists who will be interested in skin tones in portraiture, where mixes of Naples and earth reds truly shine. It might take some close observation to see differences between the various Venetian Red mixes, as it so easily dominates the Naples Yellow.

The Blockx Naples Yellow samples were generously provided directly from Jacques Blockx. They came as small sample tubes of around 5ml to 10ml in size. These are part of the hard-to-come-by, and extremely expensive, Blockx Historical Pigments, which include genuine Vermilion and Lapis Lazuli, all of which were donated to provide this exposure and comparison between brands. Special thanks to the Blockx company and Jacques in particular.

I've added Robert Doak's genuine Lead-Tin Yellow to the bottom of the columns. Although it is not a Naples Yellow, it is likewise a Histoical Pigment in the same family, sharing some the same chemistry. I needed to dilute the paint with the Walnut Alkyd because it is so stiff from the tube (not polymerized, just very thick paste!).

It will be easy to notice that the genuine Naples pigments have greatly lower tinting strength. For subtle applications, like skin tones, this is a decided advantage over stronger tinting colors, making delicate transistions easier to achieve.

Here are the paints and my comments:

Harding Naples Yellow Light -- The brightest, lightest of the Naples samples -- very high chroma from the tube. Consistency is buttery smooth with stiff short peaks. Semi-opaque.

Vasari Naples Yellow -- Slightly lower chroma than the Harding version, but greater tinting strength. Slightly pastier consistency than Harding, but creamy and good at blending. More opaque than Harding.

Blockx Naples Yellow Light -- Your eyes are not deceiving you -- the hue is slightly greenish! A very unusual color. Both Blockx samples are ground in poppy oil, which helps keep the colors as bright as possible, and the consistency is beyond compare -- so smooth and easy to spread. Tint strength and opacity is on par with Vasari, and above Harding, but still, weak in both as is the nature of this pigment. Interesting that the mix with Venetian goes slightly darker and slightly more neutral as the green in the Naples partially neutralizes the red in the Venetian.

Blockx Naples Yellow Dark -- Strongest tinter and best opacity of all the Naples samples shown. Highest chroma mix with Venetian. Outstanding handling -- perfect. This should be included in an Oil Paint Hall of Fame for its making, handling and historical fidelity.

Harding Naples Yellow Dark -- Our readily available alternative to the Blockx verison above. Tinting strength and opacity are quite a bit less than the Blockx, but color is very good, especially from the tube. Handling is a match to the Light version -- very smooth and creamy.

Doak Lead-Tin Yellow -- Another historic lead-based yellow. Similar in hue to the Naples (lead-antimony), but better opacity and about equally weak tinting strength. Very stiff consistency, with slight grit from the ceramic glaze basis of the pigment.

Of the readily available genuine Naples, Vasari is my favorite. If price was no object, the Blockx Dark version would be in my paint drawer as well.

Last edited by gunzorro : 03-04-2009 at 04:20 PM.
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 12:44 AM
monkhaus monkhaus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 459
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

The Blockx Naples Light is gorgeous. The Vasari looks like its a touch greenish too on my monitor. Actually, the darks looks more orange to me and the lights more green all the way through.

Thank you, as always for all of your work.
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 01:54 AM
rltromble's Avatar
rltromble rltromble is offline
Enthusiast
Indiana
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,611
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Gunzo, you go on paint spending sprees don't you. I have the W&N Naples yellow and the georgian left over in my student paints. Its an intreating color, I just don't use it much. The harding naples looks almost good enough to eat, well paint with anyways. My have to buy that one next.
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 02:07 PM
Brian Firth's Avatar
Brian Firth Brian Firth is online now
Enthusiast
Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,605
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

JIm, are you sure the Vasari Tuscan Yellow is pure PBr24? It seems quite obvious that it has been bumped up with an organic yellow, probably their indian yellow. I have seen many versions of PBr24, in paint and dry pigment, and none tint like that or have that masstone. I did a mix with a pure PBr24 and PY110 and it looked very much like the Vasari color.

Do you know who even sells the Blockx naples yellows in the US? They sound great!

Lastly, if you haven't already, you should try the Natural Pigments naples yellows. I have the dry pigments, and the paint I have mulled is much deeper and more opaque than the Harding genuine naples yellows I have. I would assume the triple roll milled version of their pre-made paint would be excellent.

Again, a great comparison thread!
__________________
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
-- Carl Sagan

Brian Firth
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 03:20 PM
Einion's Avatar
Einion Einion is offline
A WC! Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,631
 
Hails from Hong Kong
One word for this thread Jim, awesome!

Thanks so much for all the effort (and paint!)

Einion
__________________
Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?


Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk
  #6   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 03:23 PM
Einion's Avatar
Einion Einion is offline
A WC! Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,631
 
Hails from Hong Kong
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Firth
JIm, are you sure the Vasari Tuscan Yellow is pure PBr24? It seems quite obvious that it has been bumped up with an organic yellow, probably their indian yellow. I have seen many versions of PBr24, in paint and dry pigment, and none tint like that or have that masstone. I did a mix with a pure PBr24 and PY110 and it looked very much like the Vasari color.
That does sound plausible Brian but how much variation is there between the Chrome Titanates you have?

I tend to have a given mental picture of what colour this pigment is but it's available in a much wider span of hues than I remembered.

Einion
__________________
Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?


Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk
  #7   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 07:20 PM
gunzorro's Avatar
gunzorro gunzorro is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
Simi Valley, California
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,312
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Einion -- Thanks! I was hoping you'd enjoy it! I've never done a single sheet comprehensive comparison of these two pigments, so that was great to get accomplished.

Brian -- Vasari is pretty good about disclosing pigments for anything other than proprietary mixes, like the Christensen Western Grey series. Vasari prides itself on its purity of pigment and milling process.

In the Vasari catalog, they list Tuscan Yellow as single pigment, PBr24. Here is their text description:

"Suffused with an intense, golden light this very warm Titanium Orange is a delicious, opaque yellow, akin to Indian Yellow."

Vasari has no need to beat around the bush -- if they were using Indian Yellow PY139, they could simply say so.

Just above the Tuscan Yellow listing is their permanent version of Sap Green listed as PY139, PG7, PBk6. They would have had ample space to add more pigment numbers to the Tuscan Yellow, had there been a need!

A few years ago, when I still had an interest in mulling paint, I was intrigued by Kremer's listing of both Titanium Yellow and Titanium Orange, both supposed to be Chrome Titanate. (There may have even been a third variation.) At the time, I very so curious to see how those colors would appear, being obviously different in hue.

I agree that the color invites questions, being so different, but I'm satisfied by the Vasari information.
  #8   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 09:51 PM
monkhaus monkhaus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 459
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Gunz, what Vasari catalog do you have? Nothing of theirs I have, or have seen, discloses actual pigment numbers. Either "proprietary" or pure cerulean, cobalt etc. but nothing else....
  #9   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:22 PM
gunzorro's Avatar
gunzorro gunzorro is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
Simi Valley, California
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,312
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

It's their standard catalog/pamphlet/order form. Have you ordered from them before? They usually send it with orders or on request.

If you would like to know any pigment #s, let me know and I'll post them here.
  #10   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-06-2009, 12:56 AM
rltromble's Avatar
rltromble rltromble is offline
Enthusiast
Indiana
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,611
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

It maybe its the way they treat it or the oil they use.
  #11   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-06-2009, 02:40 PM
monkhaus monkhaus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 459
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Hey Gunz,

Would you be willing to post all of the Pigment Numbers that you have for Vasari? I just checked my most recent pamphlet and it's the complete one but I have no pigment numbers listed. Looked at the others, same thing... gives the Series, a description of the paint and that's it.
  #12   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-06-2009, 05:24 PM
LGHumphrey LGHumphrey is offline
A Local Legend
Near Barcelona.
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,582
 
Hails from Canada
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Thanks Jim, wonderful thread.
__________________
Lawrence Humphrey
Torrelles, Spain
  #13   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:34 PM
stoney's Avatar
stoney stoney is offline
A Local Legend
Pacific Northwest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,867
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzorro

Genuine Naples Yellow

I've added Blockx Venetian Red to a set of mixes with the various Naples offerings. The reasoning being that most people attracted to genuine Naples are likely purists who will be interested in skin tones in portraiture, where mixes of Naples and earth reds truly shine. It might take some close observation to see differences between the various Venetian Red mixes, as it so easily dominates the Naples Yellow.


Of the readily available genuine Naples, Vasari is my favorite. If price was no object, the Blockx Dark version would be in my paint drawer as well.

Thank you. Concerning the Venetian Red; a nut of it was added to the Naples Yellow. From that point on there was the addition of the white then again?
  #14   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-09-2009, 11:32 AM
gunzorro's Avatar
gunzorro gunzorro is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
Simi Valley, California
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,312
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Brian -- As far as I know, the Historical Paints are special order directly from Blockx. They are small production run and not sold on the normal distribution channels. Contact Blockx directly for information on price and availability.

Stoney -- You are correct -- each mix is a series further diluted with equal amounts of white.
  #15   Report Bad Post  
Old 03-09-2009, 04:13 PM
stoney's Avatar
stoney stoney is offline
A Local Legend
Pacific Northwest
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,867
 
Hails from United States
Re: Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzorro
Brian -- As far as I know, the Historical Paints are special order directly from Blockx. They are small production run and not sold on the normal distribution channels. Contact Blockx directly for information on price and availability.

Stoney -- You are correct -- each mix is a series further diluted with equal amounts of white.

Thank you.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:46 PM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.