Shiny Tile Question?

[paintingal]

Hi Everyone, I have been asked to paint on glossy ceramic tiles, behind a stove for a client. I have found two ways of removing the gloss- either by sanding or by using etching cream. Has anyone out there done this before and how do you recomend doing this. It will probably only be about a 2' x 2' area? All help appreciated!!! Thanks Carol

[semper]

Carol, I have painted tile before but never in a potentially greasy area, like behind a stove. I use the etching cream method along with a super stick primer, and after painting, finish off with several coats of clear.
What about using paint for glass?
Some here have painted on glass itself, so you will probably hear some valuable advice from them.

[paintingal]

Hi Semper, thank you for your help, I believe I will be o.k. with this because the client don't cook!!!!!!!!! I'm going to give this a try and see what happens, thanks again, Carol

[Loiosh]

I'm testing a product from Pebeo called Porcelaine 150 that's made for painting on glazed ceramics - Dick Blick and other art suppliers sell it. I'm testing the product as a potential way to color match ceramic wall tiles on a commercial job I'm working on. The existing tiles are no longer made and I've sampled ceramic wall tiles from 14 suppliers in my area representing well over 100 manufacturers and so far no one has a color that is close enought that I'll be satisfied with the end result, so I've decided to make my own, which means either color matching a glaze and having the tiles fired by a local tile producer or using a top coating that I color match to the existing wall tile.

So far in the testing process I like the product enough that I will be submitting color samples to the archetect and will be using the product to produce my own tile murals. The stuff is essentially like a baked on enamel and so far has been scratch resistant - scotch bright pad wet and dry with 10-15 lbs. pressure. I'm working with solvents right now. It seems to have excelent adhesion to both matte and sanded glazed surfaces. You let the product dry for 24 hours, then bake at 300 degrees f. for 35 minutes. It is water based, although you can't thin it with water, at least that's what the tech info says. It seems to be very easy to work with, and while at my local art store it's around $5.00 for a small bottle, over at Dick Blick the prices are lower although you have to pay shipping, at least I would think so, so perhaps it's a push as far as cost per container goes.

The material works like acrylics or water colors, and some are more transparent than others. For this product there are both gloss and matte mediums. And I think that for the Vitrea 160, which is made for use on glass but which I'm also testing on ceramics, I think that there are mediums for crackle and other effects. I'll have to check that out. Pebeo makes three products for this type of work, one for ceramics that is baked and two for glass, one that gets baked and one that doesn't, and I forget whether the crackle mediums are for the baked or non baked glass product.

I've been doing tile work since 1984 and have done mosaic and terrazzo work as well for murals, etc.. I wouldn't want to use this material on tile that was going on the floor, but I think that for wall mural work it might be as good if not better than a paint and coat method.

I'll post back on this thread in the next day or so as I do more testing with the product.

Joanne Rigutto
Mulino, Oregon

[semper]

hmm, interesting! I will be awaiting the results.

[paintingal]

Thanks Joann, I'llbe waiting too! Carol

[Autumnwillow]

I think we're all glued to our computer screens, Joann, thanks for the info and the continued test results! We love tests!!

I think my only issue would be that unless I misunderstood, are the tiles already installed Carol? In which case, baking would be prohibitive, unless a heat gun could be used or something.

I have a tile bathroom that I want to paint, but I have little "tests" all over one wall and nothing is adhering well to tile already installed. The best result I've had so far is Zinsser primer after an alcohol wash, but even it will scratch with moderate pressure. Had very poor results with Delta's "tile primer" or prep, or whatever, followed by Nova acrylics (exterior grade), and also poor results with Delta glass paints, even though they are labeled for use on glazed tile. Oh, well...

Michele

[Loiosh]

Hi Autumnwillow.

I hadn't thought about painting on tiles that were already installed. That would deffinately be problematic.

In addition to being an artist, I'm a tile and stone contractor in Portland, Oregon. I've been involved in the tile and stone industries directly since 1984 and my family has been continually involved in the industries since the first decade of 1900. You can see my websites for art and tile/stone at www.jrigutto.com. I also have a tile and stone help line that people can call, toll free, weekends from 9:00am - 8:00pm at (503) 535-9716. If it's a long distance call for you just give me a call and I'll call you back on my dime.

This thread is working it's way into a tutorial on tile murals that I'm working on. I've been a guest on a radio show in Portland that airs on Saturdays, noon to 2 on AM KXL. The host is a handyman and the show is about caring for homes, and working on them. Usually a question would be about getting something off of tile, but I might call and ask if any painters or the host, Bob Strong, knows of anything in the way of paint that will stick to the tile. The host's wife is a muralist. I don't know if she's ever painted over existing tiles, but I know that she works on a number of different surfaces that may present similar bonding problems as tile. I'll give them a call or email them and see if she has any ideas. I'm also probably going to have a booth at the Archetectural Heritage Center's Old Home Fair this month. If I do I'm definately going to do something regarding tile murals at the booth. This thread and the problems you've all presented have given me a challenge as well as having inspired me, too cool.

Anyway, getting back to the issue of working on an existing tile installation with a product like Pebeo, which by the way I'm liking more and more as I work with it and research it, is that you really can't heat the surface sufficiently without there being a risk of causing noxious fumes to be released into the air, and I would think that there would be structural issues that would come up if the paint wasn't heated evenly. There is also an issue with moisture in the substrate and in one of the tests I've done, I think it caused a problem with the finish of the material. At least it looks like that's what happened. Also, there are structural and chemical problems with the adhesive or mortar that the tile was installed with and possibly the grout, any sealers or other chemicals that would be in the grout, etc. when heated to 300-325 degrees for any period of time. I don't even want to think of what kind of chemicals might be released if an organic glue or acrylic mastic were heated like that, and the outgassing might cause other problems, plus heat would probalby permanently alter the bond on an installation where those materials had been used. I don't think there would be too much of a fire hazard, but you never know.

There are several issues that have to be dealt with when working on existing tile, adhesion being the biggest. When working on a glazed surface the only kind of bonds you're going to get, in my oppinion, are a chemical bond and a mechanical bond and those will be strictly surface bonds. A chemical bond would be a long shot with a glazed surface, but would theoretically be possible, I think. If you were working on a surface like a marble, travertine, etc. you could clean the surface of any sealers and get a more substantial bond as the surface is porous, allowing some level of penetration of the paint. You'd have the same penetration issues with a material like granite as you would with a glazed ceramic. In fact some of the tiles on the project I'm working on right now have been painted with black latex paint. I just place the tiles in a bucket of hot water for 10 minutes and the paint peels off in a sheet, or if I don't have access to hot water, I use a single edge razor blade and the paint scrapes off in a snap.

The only material that I can think of off the top of my head that would adhere well to a glazed surface would be an epoxy paint or some other paint with the same bonding properties, which I would think would be difficult to work with as far as mural painting. However, if a person were to use that as a primer and then use the type of paint you're used to using for the mural work, if it'll bond with the primer, then you'd be good to go. There is a paint, it's used for water proofing concrete and cinderblock, etc. I think it's water based and might bond well to glazed tile. You'd have to test it. You can find it at Rodda Paint, and I think some masonry suppliers may carry it. You could also call a waterproofing contractor or supplier and ask them questions about what adheres well to finished surfaces like a glazed ceramic tile or polished stone that can be painted over.

One thing that I like to do for testing is to work on 4 X 4 standard grade wall tile. Home Depot and Lowes both carry these and they're pretty cheap. I bought some yesterday at my local Lowes and I think I paid 14 cents each for 4 X 4. I probably could have gotten them cheaper at American Olean's contractor outlet, but it was a farther drive, and with the gas prices what they are it would have cost more to go that far than to just stop at the big box store...

I like to work on both bright and matte finishes. Matte is easier to write on, having a very good 'tooth', and that's handy for keeping track of what you did on that particular tile, but sometimes you can get a good bond on a matte tile simply because the slip coefficient is different. If a material adheres well to both the bright and matte glazes you're all set. The other advantage to using individual tiles for this type of testing is that you can abuse them in ways that aren't possible when testing on an existing installation. You can run them through a dish washer, soak them in chemicals like cleaning agents and expose them to acids like fruit juices, sulfamic/muratic, etc.. I'm all for over kill on my tests. And if anything happens to the tile you're working on it's only a loss of 14 cents.

In the event that nothing could be found that would bond sufficiently well to the existing tile, one option that I would look at would be to do the mural on new tile and then hire a contractor, or a handyman to remove the existing tile where the mural is going and replace them with the mural tile. A regular tile contractor might not want to do such a small job, but a handyman would probably do it, and maybe for a bit less than a regular tile contractor to boot.

If I were to do a project like that, here's how I would do it. I'd get enough tile to do the mural and place them on a board with a frame around it to hold them in place. Paint the mural, and then when the tiles were ready for installation I'd have my contractor go out, do the demo and install the mural. Or, if you're comfrotable with that and have the right license in you area if one is required, you could do the R&R yourself.

Doing a mural that way, you wouldn't even have to use the same tile as the existing installation. Ceramic tiles are pretty standardized in size and thickness, especially when it comes to standard grade wall tiles. The only ones that are odd are types like Lanka Tiles, from Sri Lanka. Those are a bit thinner than something like Dal or American Olean, but even in a situation like that, if you're using tiles for the mural that are a bit thicker than the existing, a thinner backer board could be used and the wall built out with mortar. I do that occassionally. Of course if the mural tiles are thinner than the existing wall tiles you're good to go. Care should be taken when doing demolition in this type of installation as the tiles that are to remain can be chipped/broken and you may have to replace the wall board at the demolition site or patch it. Drywall and Greenboard don't take too well to being pounded on like you have to do to remove tile. Of course, if the tile was installed over Hardibacker, then there would be no problem as that stuff peels off in layers and is very sturdy.

Joanne Rigutto

[Loiosh]

Here's another idea on working on existing tile installations.

I'm thinking that automotive primer would stick to the surface of tile pretty well. It's formulated to bond to metal which is a nonporous surface. In another post Bullseye 1 2 3 was mentioned as a primer that had good adhesion to both latex and oil based paints. You could try that and see if you get good results. The only thing I could see that might be a problem would be with the grout. Now, if the grout is nonsanded, what you could do is to prime the surface and do your mural, right over the tile and grout. Then when the mural is complete and the paint cured, remove the grout and regrout the tile at the mural, or you could remove the grout before prepping and painting the mural and grout when the mural is finished and the paint cured. I wouldn't want to do that with a sanded grout as regrouting would probably damage the mural, but with a nonsanded grout you wouldn't have to worry about the mural being damaged by any abrasive.

Automotive primer can be purchased in a rattle can or as a liquid and applied with a brush if you're concerned with overspray.

Hmm, looks like I'm going to do some more testing....

Joanne Rigutto

[Loiosh]

The first test that I did was on a couple of old tiles from the airport. The facility I'm working on right now is the Portland International Airport and the project is an extensive remodel of 17 restrooms on various concourses and in the public areas. The tiles that need to be replaced are no longer being made and so far no existing tiles are available in colors that match or even come reasonably close to the existing.

I could just buy some bisque from either Dal Tile or American Olean, formulate a glaze that is the right color with a matte finish, and then have a local tile manufacturer fire the tiles for me, but the lead time would be too long. I have to be able to produce the replacement tiles pretty much on demand with a turn around of 3-4 days. The tiles have to be able to withstand commercial cleaning, and be somewhat resistant to graffiti, although most of the tiles I'm replacing are down at the floor (bottom course) and at the ceiling (top course), so fortunately that's not quite so important as an accurate color match.

There are two products that I am currently testing for this project. Vitrea 160 and Porcelaine 150, both made by Pebeo. Both are thermo hardening water based paints. Vitrea 160 is hardened at 325 degrees for 40 minutes while Porcelaine 150 is hardened at 300 degrees for 35 minutes. The two products are not compatible with each other and neither seems to play well with water. Pebeo makes mediums and thinners for use with each product and Vitrea 160 also has mediums and treatments that produce frosted and crackle finishes. Porcelaine 150 can be mixed with a special medium to produce a matte finish. While Vitrea 160 is made for use on glass, I also see that it has good bonding properties with glazed ceramics. So far the two tests I've conducted used starndard grade wall tile from Dal Tile.

Status as of 6-6-2008

Test - 1
Substrate - Dal Tile standard grade wall tile, matte glaze. One section was left as is, the other was sanded with #80 sand paper at high speed with a standard polisher used in the stone fabrication industry. Both surfaces were cleaned with water and wiped dry.
Application - Undiluted Porcelaine 150 was applied with a metal rod to a uniform thickness and allowed to dry indoors at 70 degrees F. for 24 hours, then baked in an oven at 300 degrees for 35 mintues.

Observations -

• Product was low odor and easy to work with. It flowed eavenly over the surface of the tile and appeared to be moderately self leveling. Colors do not appear to change much if at all between application, drying and baking. Color is rich and opaque where heavier application but transparent to translucent where thinner application was allowed in test sample.

• Product cleaned off of rod, which was smooth, easily with a paper towel.

• After drying but before baking, product was soft enough to take an impression from both cloth and finger print but these impressions dissapeared during baking. Texturing by stamping will probably not be possible, however I will be doing some other texturing tests using other techniques.

• After baking the product was extremely hard and I am currently in the process of challenging both the bond and the product's surface resistance to chemical and mechanical attack.

Challenges -
1. Abbrasives

• Scrub wet and dry with plastic fibre pad - Little or no scratching at 5-10 lbs. pressure.

• Razor blade - A small section of the material was shaved off of the surface of the tile on both the abbraided and factory surfaces. This was fairly difficult and would have been even more difficult if the entire surface of the substrate had been coated. Upon exposure the substrate surface showed staining by the product indicating possible penetration of the product into the surface of the substrate's original glaze.

2. Chemical

• Glass Plus (brand) - No change in surface finish or integrity of material or bond after 30 minutes continuous exposure.

• Planned are standard cleaning chemicals as well as alcohol, xylene, acetone, laquer thinner, Goof Off (brand), citrus based cleaners etc..

Test - 2
Substrate - Dal Tile standard grade wall tile, matte glaze. One section was left as is, the other was sanded with #80 sand paper at high speed with a standard polisher used in the stone fabrication industry. Both surfaces were cleaned with water and wiped dry.
Application - Undiluted Vitrea 160 was applied with a metal rod to a uniform thickness and allowed to dry indoors at 70 degrees F. for 24 hours, then baked in an oven at 325 degrees for 40 mintues.

Observations -

• Product was low odor and easy to work with. It flowed eavenly over the surface of the tile and appeared to be moderately self leveling. Colors do not appear to change much if at all between application, drying and baking. Color is rich and opaque where heavier application but transparent to translucent where thinner application was allowed in test sample.

• Product cleaned off of rod, which was smooth, easily with a paper towel.

• After drying but before baking, product was soft enough to take an impression but these impressions dissapeared during baking. Texturing by stamping will probably not be possible, however I will be doing some other texturing tests using other techniques with this product as well as the Porcelaine 150 product.

• Before baking the surface was challenged by imprinting by stamping with a piece of #80 silicon carbide sand paper. Bits of grit and small amounts of dust undoubtably became embeded in the surface of the product during this process. After baking an unexpected texture similar to orange peel in laquers was observed. I'm unsure if this was due to the surface contamination from the stamping or if there was some moisture in the buscuit of the tile that may have come up through the abraided section of the tile's original glaze that caused this. Further tests will have to be conducted to resolve this issue. I don't believe that the texture was caused by a reaction to the tile's original glaze as the texture is only present over 30%-40% of the test area. The rest of the test surface is smooth and as expected.

• After baking the product was extremely hard and I am currently in the process of challenging both the bond and the product's surface resistance to chemical and mechanical attack.

Challenges -
1. Abbrasives

• Scrub wet and dry with plastic fibre pad - Little or no scratching at 5-10 lbs. pressure.

• Razor blade - A small section of the material was shaved off of the surface of the tile on both the abraided and factory surfaces. This was fairly difficult and would have been even more difficult if the entire surface of the substrate had been coated. Upon exposure the substrate surface showed staining by the product indicating possible penetration of the product into the surface of the substrate's original glaze.

2. Chemical - No challenges yet but planned are standard cleaning chemicals as well as alcohol, xylene, acetone, laquer thinner, Goof Off (brand), citrus based cleaners etc..

I'll post updates here as I do them.

Joanne Rigutto

[Autumnwillow]

Well color me not only impressed but RAPT with attention!!

Joanne, you really are doing your homework, and I think we're all going to benefit... you've gone above and beyond the call of duty! Thank you so much!!

I have put this thread in my favorites and will be going over it again when I have more time to really absorb all of the information. Thank you again!!!

Michele

[Loiosh]

Thanks Autumnwillow and Paintingal. I'll keep everyone updated on the test progress.

I'd also like to hear about Semper's etch cream method and the primer she mentioned. I always like to learn from other people.

Thanks,
Joanne Rigutto

[paintingal]

Thanks so much Joannne, like Michele said you are really doing your homework!! Thanks so much, we'll find a way, we always do don't we!!!
Carol

[Jakeally]

Joanne ... Thank you so much for all this wonderful information. Michele has requested that this thread is made a sticky in the forum and I am happy to oblige.
I am sure that this thread will help out so many people and I can't thank you enough.

Carol .... what a great question and a great response

[Autumnwillow]

Thanks Chris, there's just too much information here for it to get lost in the shuffle... I hope it helps lots of people, me included! And thanks again to Carol for starting it, and for Joanne for taking the time to inform us all!!

Michele