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Old 04-29-2012, 02:08 AM
toohardtopickaname toohardtopickaname is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmrs
No, the only thing for certain about a person wearing a Hot Topic outfit is that they're wearing a Hot Topic outfit. Anything else is conjecture.
How one perceives and talks about other people doesn't say anything about those people but it does say quite a bit about oneself.

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Old 04-29-2012, 04:04 AM
Morton Morton is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

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Originally Posted by toohardtopickaname

Agreed. Who can possibly know what a book is like just by looking at the cover.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:27 PM
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Jody Schmidt Jody Schmidt is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

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Originally Posted by RiJoRi
Hmmm, with photo manipulation, you could give Renoir the body carp, and remove them from the kid. Then who would be "more creative"?

'Way back when I was but a yout', in the Golden Age of Hippie-dumb, the sign of "individuality" was blue jeans!! Yep, everyone wore them, and was proud of being different!

This reminds me of a cartoon I saw: Hippies on a down escalator glaring at Punkers on an up escalator, glaring back. The caption read, "The more things change, the more they remain insane!"

--Rich
Ha!
And, in regard to the hippie counterculture, I currently believe it was a genuine counterculture unlike the 'rebel consumer' hipster vibe of today that does nothing creative, adds nothing original, and only makes a lot of corporations very wealthy.
Do I have a rose-colored lens view of hippies? Are they just as unimpressive as the Emo-Hipster conformists of today?

And, I truly believe the original punk movement of the mid 1970s was a genuine counterculture movement. I was only 5-10 years old at the time and barely knew of it, so I am not sure.
Please dont tell me I am wrong about this counterculture as well! Arr!!
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Last edited by Jody Schmidt : 04-29-2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 04-29-2012, 05:30 PM
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Jody Schmidt Jody Schmidt is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by vmrs
No, the only thing for certain about a person wearing a Hot Topic outfit is that they're wearing a Hot Topic outfit. Anything else is conjecture.
How one perceives and talks about other people doesn't say anything about those people but it does say quite a bit about oneself.
Just caught myself and was able to see what you were saying as I was about to send off a similar restated ramble:
I guess I am just as guilty as those I am scorning...those who assume the emo is more creative than the stodgily dressed old man.
I am trying to assert the opposite: that the emo is more than likely less creative, but it is just anti-establishment propaganda that is based on labeling as much as anything I am railing against.
Well put. Point taken.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:07 PM
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Horsa Horsa is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Countercultures seem to start out as genuinely creative, but often become mainstream and marketed, at wich point they are no longer a sure sign of creativity.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:34 PM
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Keith Russell Keith Russell is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jody Schmidt
Just caught myself and was able to see what you were saying as I was about to send off a similar restated ramble:
I guess I am just as guilty as those I am scorning...those who assume the emo is more creative than the stodgily dressed old man.
I am trying to assert the opposite: that the emo is more than likely less creative--

What criteria, here, is being used to assess "more" vs. "less" creative?

I think Death Cab is a pretty decent band. They may not be Dylan or the Stones, but that doesn't mean they're less creative, just that they're not as good.

One can be less creative (less prolific), and perhaps even be less talented, and yet can create "better" work!

Harper Lee wrote one novel, but it's a classic. Clearly, she's not as "creative" as John Grisham, but...


Quote:
--but it is just anti-establishment propaganda that is based on labeling as much as anything I am railing against.
Well put. Point taken.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:28 AM
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Jody Schmidt Jody Schmidt is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Russell
What criteria, here, is being used to assess "more" vs. "less" creative?

I think Death Cab is a pretty decent band. They may not be Dylan or the Stones, but that doesn't mean they're less creative, just that they're not as good.

One can be less creative (less prolific), and perhaps even be less talented, and yet can create "better" work!

Harper Lee wrote one novel, but it's a classic. Clearly, she's not as "creative" as John Grisham, but...





True about Death Cab for Cutie. I like a few of their songs and have one of their albums, but the contrast photo has Willem de Kooning it, not some decent respected rock band. De Kooning is mountains above either. I can't even imagine how he created his Woman masterworks.

The logic and analogy behind the Harper Lee-John Grisham comparison is too often used in Adbusters and Spin magazine and similar hipster outlets:
They try to correlate the minimal output of some indie band with a greater level of quality, comparing it, lets say, to the prolific output of Lady Gaga or Beyonce.
It is a fatally flawed argument and they got it way wrong:
Picasso made over 10,000 works in his lifetime whereas Rousseau maybe did 250-300, but noone would dream of correlating Rousseau's smaller output with greater quality of individual works, and noone in 10 eternities would suggest that he is better simply because he painted less, especially since Picasso is probably one of the greatest artists in history.
The Rousseau-Picasso comparison alone should forever eliminate the false perception that great output somehow correlates with a decrease in quality. It is more often the other way around: The more you write or paint, the better you get. Cheers!
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http://alwaysmadness.tumblr.com/

Last edited by Jody Schmidt : 04-30-2012 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:38 AM
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Keith Russell Keith Russell is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jody Schmidt
True about Death Cab for Cutie. I like a few of their songs and have one of their albums, but the contrast photo has Willem de Kooning it, not some decent respected rock band. De Kooning is mountains above either. I can't even imagine how he created his Woman masterworks.

I can imagine (but then, I've never been impressed. Truly dreadful paintings, on every level, IMO. They're not even good enough to be truly "bad"...)

Quote:
The logic and analogy behind the Harper Lee-John Grisham comparison is too often used in Adbusters and Spin magazine and similar hipster outlets:
They try to correlate the minimal output of some indie band with a greater level of quality, comparing it, lets say, to the prolific output of Lady Gaga or Beyonce.
It is a fatally flawed argument and they got it way wrong:
Picasso made over 10,000 works in his lifetime whereas Rousseau maybe did 250-300, but noone would dream of correlating Rousseau's smaller output with greater quality of individual works, and noone in 10 eternities would suggest that he is better simply because he painted less, especially since Picasso is probably one of the greatest artists in history.

The Rousseau-Picasso comparison alone should forever eliminate the false perception that great output somehow correlates with a decrease in quality. It is more often the other way around: The more you write or paint, the better you get. Cheers!

That's kind of my point. No, there's no guarantee that if you limit your output, you'll create better work--but there's no guarantee that if you crank out a lot of stuff, it'll be any better, either. Good work is good work, regardless of how much--or how little--an artist makes.

But, you're asking about who is more "creative", not who is "better". I don't associate "creativity"--necessarily--with "good" work.

Picasso wasn't just highly "creative", he was also very good.

But, Picasso vs. Vermeer? I think Vermeer wins. (But that'a a different subject, altogether...)
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:36 AM
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Horsa Horsa is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Vermeer is "better", but Picasso is "more creative" at least in form and content. If we include process then we have an argument worth making...

Lots of bands released only one album, and it was great. Lots of bands released only one album and it was crap. Lots of bands have released many great albums. Lots of bands have released many album of crap.

Quantity has a quality all it's own, but beyond that quantity and creativity do not necessarily go hand in hand. Any of us could churn out thousands of derivative paintings of a particular style and subject does hat make us more creative? Or does. It just mean we have found a successful formula?

Thomas Kincaid was very prolific, technically proficient, but I do not find his work Particularly creative. It is also worth remembering hat creative work may not be good quality. In fact if it is truly creative it is likely to be of lower quality initially. This is due to trying new things and experimenting. It takes a while to master. We just don't see the early attempts. They are painted over or used to line birdcages. What we see are the works that got it right, the end of The process.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:47 AM
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Jody Schmidt Jody Schmidt is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsa
Vermeer is "better", but Picasso is "more creative" at least in form and content. If we include process then we have an argument worth making...

Lots of bands released only one album, and it was great. Lots of bands released only one album and it was crap. Lots of bands have released many great albums. Lots of bands have released many album of crap.

Quantity has a quality all it's own, but beyond that quantity and creativity do not necessarily go hand in hand. Any of us could churn out thousands of derivative paintings of a particular style and subject does hat make us more creative? Or does. It just mean we have found a successful formula?

Thomas Kincaid was very prolific, technically proficient, but I do not find his work Particularly creative. It is also worth remembering hat creative work may not be good quality. In fact if it is truly creative it is likely to be of lower quality initially. This is due to trying new things and experimenting. It takes a while to master. We just don't see the early attempts. They are painted over or used to line birdcages. What we see are the works that got it right, the end of The process.
I definintely see your point, and it is correct:
Neither great nor small quantity, in and of itself, means anything.
But, I cant help it. I may be too hung up on creativity and originality. And, Im not even sure if I can recognize newness in anything happening at this moment, but one can be consoled that the ability to recognize creativity has nothing to do with actually being original, otherwise, every good critic or talent agent would himself be a force of originality:

Which leads to another problem I have with much of today's ultra-conformist mass indie-hipster culture: Too much emphasis on early adoption and not enough on genuine counter-culture.

An emo-hipster hybrid of today would have met Theo and Vincent in 1885 and concluded that Theo was more 'creative' or 'unique' because he more quickly embraced the new artistic styles of the day. He kinda had to since he was an art dealer. But, Vincent had to be goaded multiple times before he even saw an Impressionist painting, and by the time he did, they were almost yesterday's news, with the new Post-Impressionists following quickly after the Impressionists.

Of course, the end result is obvious: early adoption does not correlate with creativity, otherwise, Theo would have ended up the more creative of the two.

So, how on earth did a mass number of people get so hung up on so many different things that give nothing more than an unconvincing illusion of some form of uniqueness or avant-garde-ness, but actually indicate nothing whatsoever?
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http://alwaysmadness.tumblr.com/

Last edited by Jody Schmidt : 05-01-2012 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:30 PM
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Re: Creative Comparison

If Renoir was wearing a beret, I bet they would say he was the more creative!

In my experience, many people who are creative aren't worried about what they look like. The current "show your hands" movement on Etsy is proof enough that the truly creative are ... busy doing it.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:49 PM
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Keith Russell Keith Russell is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsa
Vermeer is "better", but Picasso is "more creative" at least in form and content. If we include process then we have an argument worth making...

I guess, for me, being "creative" isn't as important as being "good". (That said, I may suck completely...)

And this (below) is my point, exactly:


Quote:
Lots of bands released only one album, and it was great. Lots of bands released only one album and it was crap. Lots of bands have released many great albums. Lots of bands have released many album of crap.

Quantity has a quality all it's own, but beyond that quantity and creativity do not necessarily go hand in hand. Any of us could churn out thousands of derivative paintings of a particular style and subject does hat make us more creative? Or does. It just mean we have found a successful formula?

Thomas Kincaid was very prolific, technically proficient, but I do not find his work Particularly creative. It is also worth remembering that creative work may not be good quality. In fact if it is truly creative it is likely to be of lower quality initially. This is due to trying new things and experimenting. It takes a while to master. We just don't see the early attempts. They are painted over or used to line birdcages. What we see are the works that got it right, the end of The process.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:01 PM
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stlukesguild stlukesguild is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

The more you write or paint, the better you get. Cheers!

This would seem to make logical sense... but it doesn't always turn out that way. Gérard de Nerval wrote but a few exquisite sonnets, and yet these have been enough to establish his place in the history of French poetry. Charles Baudelaire's oeuvre is almost limited to a single book, Les Fleurs du Mal, and yet this was enough to establish him as the father of Modern poetry and quite possibly the single greatest poet in French history. Rimbaud (to continue in the vein) stopped writing at age 20, leaving a slim volume of poetry that shook French poetry to its very foundations. In contrast, Wordsworth only became worse with time; Andy Warhol did little more than repeat himself; and DeKooning certainly declined with the passage of time.

Leonardo DaVinci, Vermeer, Breughel, Van Eyck and any number of other artists, on the other hand, stand among the greatest masters... in spite of their limited output.

Good work is good work, regardless of how much--or how little--an artist makes.

Picasso wasn't just highly "creative", he was also very good.

But, Picasso vs. Vermeer? I think Vermeer wins. (But that'a a different subject, altogether...)


I'm not big Picasso lover... although I recognize his place in art history. I personally prefer Beckmann, Matisse, Bonnard... and maybe even Paul Klee... but I recognize that Picasso towered over the whole 20th century. As great as Vermeer is, and I am always blown away by the exquisite color and jewel-like handling of paint... I even consider the retrospective of his paintings to have been the single greatest art show I have ever seen... and yet I would balk at placing him above Picasso. I think the Rubens, Caravaggio, Rembrandt, and certainly Michelangelo can surpass Picasso... but Vermeer? The scale of Picasso's oeuvre... the sheer number of masterpieces... his influence and his dominance over an entire era is something that few artists can rival.

the contrast photo has Willem de Kooning it, not some decent respected rock band. De Kooning is mountains above either. I can't even imagine how he created his Woman masterworks.

I can imagine (but then, I've never been impressed. Truly dreadful paintings, on every level, IMO. They're not even good enough to be truly "bad"...)

Ab-Ex isn't really my thing... yet still I can recognize some real genius and mastery of color and brush-work in DeKooning... especially in his early works:







The "Women" however, never did much for me.

In my experience, many people who are creative aren't worried about what they look like.

Indeed. I attended an art school as opposed to a university or college. Everybody in the school was majoring in art. At the start of each new year the incoming Freshmen would all be decked out in the latest "artsy" fashions. Within a month or two they had completely abandoned these. No one was impressed by anything except your ability and the work you created. Oil paint and clay and all the other art materials that were everywhere did nasty things to stylish fashions... and ultimately, dressing up took too much time, and time was something that was in short supply.

Even now I laugh when attending art openings or other such events at the crowd dressed in their obligatory black. I doubt that many people could guess that I or the majority of my artist friends were artists by the way we dress. The only time I might "look like an artist" is when I'm in the studio... dressed in paint-spattered khakis and t-shirts or sweat-shirts. Even then... I've stopped off at the bank... or to pick up lunch at some local diner and had the teller or waitress say something along the lines of "Oh... I see you're a painter... either that or an artist (laughs)." You should see their face when I admit to the latter.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:16 PM
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Re: Creative Comparison

could it be said (correct) that the majority(?) of truly 'good' 'creative' 'artists' (using those terms loosely because it's just so highly subjective - and i don't relate good/creative/artists necessarily with success in sales), are reclusive introverts who spend more time alone with their medium than anyplace else and could care less, really, what they're wearing/looking like. ?

or is that a stereotype ?

la
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:55 AM
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Keith Russell Keith Russell is offline
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Re: Creative Comparison

@stlukesguild:

None of the deKooning works you posted, above, impress me in the least...

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