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Old 04-30-2012, 12:04 AM
sidbledsoe sidbledsoe is offline
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Quote:
It takes time to become familiar with the concept of warm and cool but beginning to feel these relationships are the cornerstone.
Yes and it is widely considered to be among the highest levels of artistic study.
This particular tutorial comes from the Georgetown Atelier School in Seattle Washington (an ARC approved school BTW), typical of how color temperature is taught at classical realist ateliers, but thinking in terms of color temperature is also cornerstone among most other genres including graphic design, interior decorating, you name it, if it's about color, temperature is a fundamental concept. But if the waters here are now tainted by all the previous contentious threads and different viewpoints, then so be it. I won't pursue talking about it any more past this thread and this post, may there be a new beginning of a better way of talking about it.

Last edited by sidbledsoe : 04-30-2012 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:54 AM
Chas Tennis Chas Tennis is offline
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Blackbody Radiation- the relationship of light and temperature

Please excuse if the art community has applied different meaning to the term color temperature for art purposes.

In physics the term "color temperature" is related to Blackbody Radiation. There is a very specific relationship between the temperature of a radiating 'blackbody' surface and the spectrum of the light emitted. It closely follows the Theory of Blackbody Radiation. I believe that the surface of the sun radiates as a 6000K blackbody. An incandescent light bulb, because of the temperature of the tungsten filament, has a spectral output similar to a blackbody at about 2800-3000K. The sun's spectrum then then has relatively more blue & green than an incandescent bulb which has relatively more red. When the electric burner on a stove glows red it is about 900K with hardly any green or blue in its spectrum.

https://www.google.com/search?q=blac...1 280&bih=589

http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/physi...ody/bbody.html

Last edited by Chas Tennis : 04-30-2012 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 04:35 AM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

If you want to understand Quantum Mechanics then you need to understand Blackbody Radiation as the understanding of the one lead to the other. But this is art and no science or rationality is involved

Dave
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:25 AM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Agree with Chas Tennis. Color temperature means real temperature in Kelvin degrees.
But stupid concept warm/cool can`t give any objective information about color. Is cool color bluish? Is it greenish? Or, may be, yellower or violet? Who can determine what it means in reality?

Why two "warm" colors can make one "cool" after mixing together? Warm green + warm blue = Cool blue. Delusion!

For me it is "an old stupid thing into a smart shell"
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:51 PM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

I quote from the link given in the 1st post :
"Drawings or paintings done in two colors such as black charcoal on white paper, black charcoal and white chalk, brown and white chalk etc., are considered monochromatic. They are monochromatic not because they lack color necessarily, but because they lack color temperature relationships. "
I might be mistaken but for me, "monochromatic" means : one color, not two colors.
in this quotation there are 2 colors, the black charcoal and the white... so ?????
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Old 04-30-2012, 04:20 PM
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Doug Nykoe Doug Nykoe is offline
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidbledsoe
Yes and it is widely considered to be among the highest levels of artistic study.
This particular tutorial comes from the Georgetown Atelier School in Seattle Washington (an ARC approved school BTW), typical of how color temperature is taught at classical realist ateliers, but thinking in terms of color temperature is also cornerstone among most other genres including graphic design, interior decorating, you name it, if it's about color, temperature is a fundamental concept. But if the waters here are now tainted by all the previous contentious threads and different viewpoints, then so be it. I won't pursue talking about it any more past this thread and this post, may there be a new beginning of a better way of talking about it.

I guess roll with the punches as they say Sid. Temp has been used as an aid in art for such a long time it is even funny to me that we even question it or even explore it more. But there’s a lot of diversity in art and art theory so choose you’re rationale.

For a lot of us we do not even see these identifiers that man has attached to colour such as green, red, orange etc. When we paint we see that red is cooler than orange so in actuality we only see that this colour is cooler than this and that’s warmer than that without even recognizing it as a red or orange in a lot of cases.

The funny thing is though, once you grab onto the theory of warm and cool is it really that much of a stretch to see other relationships that piggyback on this concept. Example: warm and cool, dark to light, more texture less texture etc theres no end to it. it just keeps growing and growing the insights you will attain as you go along because it uses mostly the same (feel) processes. But again, if you do not use it, you lose it. At some point you have to be committed to something because as they say… a jack of all trades is a master of nothing.

I was surprised myself that just these two little words (warm and cool) would open such a vast world of art to me.

Oh well, everyone’s got to find their own way that suits them the best I guess.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:31 PM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Based on what evidence orange color is warmer than red? Red body color temperature is lower than the orange-red. Infrared radiation component of red heated body also prevails. Prove please, why orange color is warmer than red.
Also "Cool" yellow + "Cool" red = "Warmest" orange mixture? I guess it is nonsense.

Last edited by Gigalot : 05-01-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:00 PM
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Doug Nykoe Doug Nykoe is offline
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigalot
Based on what evidence orange color is warmer than red? Red body color temperature is lower than the orange-red. Infrared radiation component of red heated body also prevails. Prove please, why orange color is warmer than red.
Also "Cool" yellow + "Cool" red = "Warmest" orange mixture? I guess it is nonsense.

You win, it is all nonsense, and so, how is this working for you (Infrared radiation component of red heated body) this is what I meant by jack of all colour theory and master of nothing. Get your paints out and feel these differences on the canvas. You have been using this apparatus of feel your whole life now you can bring it and merge it into your art.

If it is nonsense to you, then carry on with your beliefs.

If I take a small canvas, paint it all lower chroma cad red (cool) and draw a square in the middle of the canvas, and paint that small square with the same tube of paint but high chroma red, the red by comparison becomes warmer even though there still both the same tube of paint minus the manipulator. If I add a bit of orange to the small square of red I make it much warmer. It all happens on the canvas.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:18 AM
llawrence llawrence is offline
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

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Originally Posted by Ifat Glassman
I hope you find it useful and leave comments!
I've read through that tutorial before, and shared it with my instructor, and it's great. Anyone who's interested in figure drawing or composition, make sure y'all check out the section on designing the block-in of the figure here - one of the few people out there who is addressing this topic, treating the figure as a design, rather than just a collection of observations. Great stuff.

Concerning the concept of color temperature, I personally consider it vital - but as a matter of composition rather than theory.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:06 AM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

When some books give me a metaphysical advice, first I try to translate it into a normal language. Using common sense, I guess that metaphysical "cool gray" mostly means "low chroma cyan" as "warm gray" must be "low chroma orange" . After that we can mix this colors using real paints like Mars black, Cerulean blue e.t.c.

The whole concept can be described by only two words "cool" = cyan, "warm" = orange.

Why this foggy concept is so important to many artists? What it means "make this color warmer"? You can add orange paint there and will get a moody dull result.
To "make this color warmer" you must add an "orange light" there, not an orange paint!
That means an additive light mixing! You must emulate additive orange light addition without changing chroma and value but using subtractive paints! Not an easy task particularly with blue hues! You may need white, orange, magenta paints and buffering layer between blue and warming blue.

Last edited by Gigalot : 05-02-2012 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:06 AM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

What a strange attitude turning this in to a dichotomy. Sure its important to know what your various tubed colours are going to do but its far more important to see the relationships of colour within what you are looking at. Perhaps your attitude would work if you are copying a photo but if you are painting directly from life there is so much information being thrown at you that you have to learn to edit what you see. If you pick up on the overall temperature of the light and what it’s doing to the shadows you will start to see the colour-temperature relationships. What paint you chose to lay out on your palette is irrelevant there are so many different ways to mix paints to get the same result. What is important is learning to see, that is why so many books talk about colour temperature, are you going to throw out all the lessons from the past masters?

Dave
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:33 AM
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Horsa Horsa is offline
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Heat runs black, red, orange, yellow, white

Unless you are looking at a gas flame in which case the blue is hatter than the red.

Or oxidation scale on cooling metal, blues and purples are warmer than straws and yellows.

The problem with colour temperature theory is that it has two poles, colour hue is generally conceptualized as having *three*. Red, yellow, blue, or magenta, cyan, ******* amber.

In any event colour temperature is relative not absolute. Is lemon yellow a warm colour or a cool colour? It is a yellow so it's warm, but it leans heavily to blue/green/cyan so it is cool. A is cooler than B, but warmer than C.

As for Journeyman's assertion that knowing what your tubed colours are going to do is less important than seeing what the light on he subject is doing, I must respectfully disagree. I think he has it backwards. If I do not know my tubed paints intimately how can I reliably get them to produce the effects I am looking for? Try mixing a bright orange with lemon yellow and alizarin crimson.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:30 PM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Ok it’s possible to reduce things to absurdity and mix inappropriate colours but within the realm of practical colour mixing what you lay out is not as important as what you do with it when you apply it to the canvas.
But before you start splashing the paint you need to decide what the finished work is going to look like, you have to visualise. Colour-temperature relationships will help you with that. If you can’t make that visualisation then you will struggle.

Here is an example, I decided this would be high key and predominantly warm because of the spotlight I used to light the model.



It’s not a good painting but it illustrates what I’m on about. It would have been a better painting if I had taken more notice of the colour temperature relationships especially the cool colours in the shadows.

Here is the palette I used white, yellow ochre, vermilion and ivory black. There is also a very small amount of french ultramarine used in the back ground. At the side you can see the mixes I made from the colours along the top. All the colours are student grade.

I could have used the same palette for this hammer but chose to use the brightest colours I have Winsor red, yellow, and blue.



It would be hard to get two more different palettes but the result is very much the same, illustrating my point that the paint you chose to lay out on your palette within sensible boundaries is irrelevant.
Dave
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:24 PM
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

Quote:
Originally Posted by lumiere33
I quote from the link given in the 1st post :
"Drawings or paintings done in two colors such as black charcoal on white paper, black charcoal and white chalk, brown and white chalk etc., are considered monochromatic. They are monochromatic not because they lack color necessarily, but because they lack color temperature relationships. "
I might be mistaken but for me, "monochromatic" means : one color, not two colors.
in this quotation there are 2 colors, the black charcoal and the white... so ?????
He just means there are no hue variations, thus no 'warm & cool' relationships. Those that choose to think in terms of color temperature see hue as one of (or the most) important factor in temperature relationships.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:43 PM
llawrence llawrence is offline
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Re: Understanding color-temperature relationships

To me, color temperature is roughly a cross-section of both hue and saturation contrasts, with saturation contrast often, actually, the more important of the two. When I paint skin tones in a portrait these days I'm often thinking in just two dimensions, value and temperature - but that doesn't mean I'm using a lot of different hues. (Of course I don't usually portray any actual blues, greens, violets or magentas in skin tones.)

Think about what happens to your color space when the dimension of hue mostly goes away, and you are left with only a thin slice of analogous colors between red and yellow-orange - and nearly all of them falling right at red-orange. There are the hues in your sitter's flesh. Now saturation contrast becomes at least equal in importance to hue contrast, and in fact they work together to push some colors and pull others in the frequent case that value contrast cannot accomplish the thing alone. Does it not then begin to make sense to think of hue and saturation as a single dynamic unit - temperature - to help compose the third dimension of your picture?

Often it really doesn't matter whether a color is more yellow than another, for instance, or less saturated, or both - what matters is that some combination of these is used to make the color cooler. Or in other cases warmer. Or whatever. See the difference? Of course I could talk about hue and saturation separately, as color dimensions, instead; but then I'd be missing the point. The why of it. And the fact that the temperature contrast needed can be accomplished in different ways, for different color casts, moods, gamuts, etc.

This example from Rembrandt is visually pretty monochromatic - I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were painted from three pigments - and personally I'm seeing a heck of a lot of temperature variation in there. Why? Why are some parts painted opaque and cool, and other parts transparent and warm? In a monochromatic picture, what's the point?



If Rembrandt had painted this as a full-color composition, I'm pretty sure the hue variations he used would be there to accomplish the same thing.
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Last edited by llawrence : 05-02-2012 at 08:23 PM.
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