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Old 04-15-2012, 09:02 PM
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Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

I've been contacted by a designer about buying one of my paintings... which they also want to make reprints of for other rooms in a hotel.

The reprints would be giclees on canvas, in the area of about 30" x 40" (which is actually a little larger than the original).

They're looking at possibly six giclees now, and perhaps more later.

I can't find my Graphic Artists' Guild Guide to Pricing and Ethical Guidelines (did I get that title right?) anywhere... nor did they have in at the bookstore. I'm not sure it would address this, though - it's not quite the same as licensing rights for a publishing company for resale....

I need to come up with a price (I'm thinking per giclee). Any ideas? Anyone with experience with this? Anyone have a copy of the GAG Guide? I should add that they will be doing the photographing and printing.

Help! Help! I'm supposed to get back to them with prices on Monday....

With many thanks for help in advance,
Karen

Last edited by Azure Wings : 04-15-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:08 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

You may want to start here.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:22 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Good points! I definitely would not sign away my copyrights - and I would definitely not want to give them full reproduction rights.

Hmmmm. They told me they wanted the original - but I wonder if they actually do, other than for photographing purposes?

It would have to be re-photographed, in a high-resolution file. Unfortunately, I had it matted and framed (very expensive, museum-quality framing - it's acrylic on watercolor paper), and it would have to be removed and then re-framed... not fun.

This is a GREAT article... very thorough. It also makes me think that, whatever contract we have, I should run by a copyright lawyer, just to be on the safe side.

Hmmm. I'm still stumped on pricing. I looked over at http:www.art.com, and saw images selling as giclees on canvas, in sizes similar to what they're looking for, for $250 to $350-ish. Or should I even set a price until I find out more?

Thank you VERY much, Howard!

Very appreciatively,
Kare
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:05 AM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Please read this thread, it is from another WC topic and here is a little tidbit from it with important concerns for every artist who is having someone else create reproductions of their work such as with a giclee;

"Reproductions are derivatives. The right of attribution shall not apply to reproductions. The artist's copyright only extends to the material the artist contributes.

Unless put into writing, the printer owns everything they use to make those reproductions. The printer is only contractually obligated to give the artist what they paid for. Let me belabor the point. The printer is only contractually obligated to give the artist what they paid for.

So, if you put in a contract, all reproductions rights incurred under U.S. Copyright Law are returned to me the artist from the printer for consideration ie., money for reproducing my artwork, you can't go wrong."

Re: giclee reproductions and copyright protection
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Last edited by davefriend : 04-16-2012 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:00 AM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Thank you, Dave! I read through the whole thread - what a good (and complicated) resource!

It's been a long time since I dealt with copyright issues - nearly twenty years ago, when I did a series of collages. I hadn't realized that copyright laws had changed so much in the eighties, and had no idea that I was violating the copyrights of a whole lot of photographers when I cut up images from all over - including cannibalizing my wonderful old National Geographics.

Another artist clued me in, and I consulted a copyright attorney. And I stopped showing them. In order to continue to do so, I would have had to contact pretty much each photographer whose images I used (at that point, I'm not sure I could have found them all - these were reasonably complex collages). In other words, in spite of the fact that I had changed the original images considerably, using parts of images, and they were part of completely new compositions, I did not have the right to reproduce them without the permission of the photographers.

I gleaned from the thread the conclusion that printers (talking digital printers here) retain a copyright allowing them to print reproductions, but only at the permission of the artist, and for the artist, unless the artist agrees otherwise. A printer would do less to the image, creatively, than I did with those collages....

It's a good point, though, to think about where our images go, and whether they are secure.

Also, a printer is not the same as a publisher, and would not be the same as the interior designer working for this hotel, who would take the work to a printer. (With any luck, I can recommend them to the printer who is also my photographer - I think I'd feel a whole lot more secure then.)

I clearly need to be careful about whatever I sign, to make sure I don't pass along any rights or permissions that I don't intend.... I think I'm going to have to call Bay Area Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts, and get a referral.

I'm really glad this has come up, because I hadn't considered needing a lawyer.

I'm still unsure about how to price this, though.... Any ideas? One price per each reproduction? If they want six, then six times some particular price? Or some percentage of the price of the original? Should I reproduce them - or let them do it?

With lots to consider - and with many thanks,
Karen

Last edited by Azure Wings : 04-16-2012 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:55 AM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

I would reproduce them yourself. That way you set the price and they can't print more than they paid for.

This also allows you to retain the digital file and not put it in their hands.

Pricing really depends on how you are going to price all reproductions. You need to first decide what your profit will be per print. Then you add any additional costs. You will also need to consider retail pricing and wholesale pricing in case you ever want to sell through a distributor ( gallery, gift store, etc.).
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:54 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Jill, this sounds like a very good idea. I've avoided doing giclees in the past, but in this situation it might be preferable for me to do them.

I'll talk to my photographer, and get his rates for printing on canvas - that way I can present it as an option to the designer (whom I need to call today!). It may not be what they'd prefer, but it doesn't hurt to propose it.

Now, to figure out how that pricing might work....

Thank you very much!

Appreciatively,
Karen
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:24 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Pricing can go two ways.

Markup based on painting worth or markup based on cost of goods sold.

The first one you decided what you want for the sale of the image. Then you add all the costs from digitizing the image(spread over how many you expect to sell) printing, stretching, packaging. Anything from your travel time to labels on the back. Then you double it for a retail price.

The second is sort of the same but your price per image is based on some sort of percentage of the cost of producing the print. For example the price of getting a 30" x 40" cost you $75.00( this is a guess) you decide to add on 25% for the image and therefore the wholesale price would be $100.00

There is no easy way to do this. You have to crunch numbers over and over until you are happy with what you get in the end.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:15 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Thank you very much, Jill. This gives me some good information to go on.

And you're right, there is no easy way to do this. I am going to do some serious number crunching - with any luck, I can get a little extension on this, as I'm finishing my taxes, too. I'll post how this goes.

Very appreciatively,
Karen
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:44 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

An update: the designer is working with six different painters, and wants to use giclees of one painting from each of us in six rooms, each giclee being about 30" x 40" in size. Each artist they've talked to has given them a different response in terms of pricing and expectations.

I did tell them that they don't need to buy the original in order to license reproduction of the image (they don't really want the originals, but thought they needed to buy them in order to make the giclees).

One artist told them that her standard licensing arrangement was, according to the designer, 10% royalty on the cost of each giclee.

I have a feeling the designer is thinking of the wholesale cost of the giclee, not the retail price. Also - there's a bit of a range in giclee prices. And this would be pricing for an arrangement with a publisher, who would be publishing in much larger quantities. My feeling is that for a smaller quantity, the price should be higher.

I hope they aren't thinking they might get the images for $25 or $30 each - 10% of the price of printing something that size.... I quoted a price per giclee that I was thinking of, and added that that was negotiable. No word since... I'll post any updates....

With many thanks for all the help,
Karen
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:52 AM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Congratulations on being 'in demand', Karen!

It's fascinating to watch this unfold. This thread, with its accompanying links, will become a new resource for some, I'm sure. Thanks for letting us watch and learn.

Can't wait to see what new information is added, and how it all works out for you.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:38 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Thank you, Wendy!

I"ve been plugging away at this for a long time, and it's nice to see. I also know it's important not to count my chickens before they hatch... it's amazing just how many of them don't hatch. So you never know....

Appreciatively,
Karen
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:16 AM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Here's the update:

It took a long time, but this is finally happening, and I thought you might want to know the outcome.

There were originally six artists (all local, which is nice), now there are four. I think the other two are not a part of it now because their prices for the giclees were too high.

The hotel is getting four 30" x 40" giclees (from each of us, as far as I know), and not buying the original (which is fine with me). Each artist is getting their own giclees produced. My prices (I named something, they cut it down, it works for me) wound up being 2 times my cost for the giclee for the second, third, and fourth giclees, and an amount over it for the first that covers photographing.

(Mine needs to be photographed through the glass - which the photographer can do, with a polarizing filter.)

I have a contract with the hotel which specifies museum-quality giclees. That means some very specific things - not any giclee will do.

I learned along the way - if you are in a similar situation and need to get giclees:

• If they are on canvas, make sure stretching and stretcher bars are included in the price.

• Make sure the printer is accurate with color - and get a proof (I will get a piece of canvas from the middle of the painting to proof - and I will also practice signing on it, because they want these signed).

• If the printer tells you it's archival, find out what that means. Does it mean lightfast under bright light? It may not actually mean that. Find out.

• Is the surface protected, in case something gets on it? Can it be cleaned safely? Some giclees are not protected, and window cleaner will wash off the image (a hotel will NOT be happy with that). In this case, the giclees are protected with a spray UV-light protective coating (that also protects it from liquids) - and it can be cleaned.

That's how things stand now - the project is also now being handled by a gallery that is making a 10% fee, based on the cost of all the giclees (they are doing a lot of work for it). The contract also specifies that the copyright for the image remains with me. They are not licensing the image, they are purchasing the already-printed giclees from me.

So that's it! Mine will be printed and delivered soon, probably next week.

Thank you all for your help and advice! I hope this is helpful to anyone else in a similar situation, too.

Appreciatively,
Karen
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:17 AM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Congratulations, Karen -- wow, you've really moved forward with this!

Thanks for the 'museum-quality' checklist -- that's useful info.

Now, you need an updated CV and a press release.

Emphasis on the press release.

Has the hotel thought of hosting a small reception to toast their recent partnership with four local artists? Communities loves businesses that 'give back' by doing business locally.

Will you be able to share photos with us when your work is installed? I'd love to see!

Have I offered up enough unsolicited advice?
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:28 PM
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Re: Help! Pricing for reprints for a hotel...?

Oh... a press release? I hadn't thought of that. Certainly I'll put it on my CV (thank you for the reminder!), and announce it on my website, blog, and Facebook. The press release is an idea, though....

And a small reception for the artists (with photos for the press) sounds like a great idea! Also good promotion for the gallery that is handling this now... I'll pass on the suggestion to the gallery director - I'm sure she'll like the idea.

I'm in the middle of doing marketing for my local open studios organization, and I've been so swamped I haven't been doing my own marketing... thank you for this, Wendy! The unsolicited ideas are totally great - and hey, I DID solicit them - that's why I came here!

And I'd love to share photos when they're installed - I'm looking forward to seeing the rooms, too. The painting, by the way, is on my home page - at http://www.hummingbirdcreek.com. It's the second one down, on the left, entitled, "The Red Tree." The giclee will actually be larger than the original.

(As a note of interest - believe it or not, one of the giclees - from another artist - is being reproduced at 30" x 40" from a ...drumroll... 5" x 7" inch painting. Yup. The wonders of digital technology....)

With LOTS of thanks for the ideas, advice, and support,
Karen

Last edited by Azure Wings : 08-06-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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