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Old 04-13-2012, 01:18 AM
AbstractArt99 AbstractArt99 is offline
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Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

I was told recently that paints made up of a mixture of pigments will always lean toward "mud" when mixing because they are not pure. The comment was aimed at really cheap craft brands of paints, but I'm wondering if it applies to student grade "hues" as well.

For example, I have a tube of D-R Georgian Cad red (Hue) which is made up of Arylamide Yellow G PY1; Naphthol Red AS-D PR112; and Disazo Orange PO34. Will mixing this paint give different results than if I used Cad Red PR108?

If so, are student grade paint "hues" and convenience mixes actually a hindrance? Should I be buying paints that only contain one pigment and learning to mix from those?
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Old 04-13-2012, 03:06 AM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

It is nearly impossible to imitate transparency and full dynamic range of original paint. Even if masstone is OK, tints might be too far from original color.
People prefer to use mono pigmented paints because they can mix any other hue easily.
As for mixing troubles and properties:
http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech34.html

Last edited by Gigalot : 04-13-2012 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 04-13-2012, 05:43 AM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Yes, they usually mix quite differently. As giglot says, it might even mix with white differently as a tint. This isn't to say you still can't get a mixture, you just need to experiment. If you wanted, for example, to make a particular orange with that red you might need to choose a different yellow than you would with Cad Red. Hues can be useful if used as single colours, and some student brands are quite good. Personally I often find student brands with the same single pigment just have a lower pigment load in the paint. With the way I way (adding lots of water) sometimes the pigment load works fine for me. (other times, it doesn't) I don't usually buy student grade, but have the odd tube or two.

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Old 04-13-2012, 01:53 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

One reason single pigments are preferable is that the results are predictable in mixtures, which saves a lot of frustration and experimenting. "Hues" are simply substitutes for some of the more expensive pigments, like the cadmium reds & oranges, cobalts, etc. Not necessarily wrong, just not as reliable in mixes because some have several pigments in the one tube. -- Some student grade paints are quite good, especially in the earth tones. You could build on those earth tones by adding a few artist quality colors to round out your palette.
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:37 PM
AbstractArt99 AbstractArt99 is offline
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Thanks for the answers everyone. I guess my main concern is if I spend a lot of time learning to mix with student substitute hues, then when I move onto using artist grade paints I'm going to have a lot of relearning to do.
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Old 04-13-2012, 08:23 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Hue is when a manufacturer mixes several pigment (HUE) to make it look like an original single pigment color .I prefer to use single pigments colors then I know I won't create mud.
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Old 04-14-2012, 02:02 AM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Quote:
Originally Posted by querin
I prefer to use single pigments colors then I know I won't create mud.
querin

It is not always true. Single pigmented paints can also make a "mud" mixtures when used improperly. White or black (or complement) can reduce dynamic range an often looks mud. Also, there are many brilliantly premixed colours with a great working properties particularly prepared with transparent pigments.
(Indian yellow for example). Transparent 'Hues" is OK.
I guess, mostly white, black or opaque pigments additives in 'hues" reduce working properties and can create "mud" mixtures.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:34 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbstractArt99
Thanks for the answers everyone. I guess my main concern is if I spend a lot of time learning to mix with student substitute hues, then when I move onto using artist grade paints I'm going to have a lot of relearning to do.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. Once you learn how to mix colors, you should be able to quickly arrive at a color, regardless of the paint being a hue, or an original color. For most purposes related to painting, the hues will create colors just like the original single pigment paints. The thing is that single pigment colors may have pure chroma, yet we very rarely use colors unmixed, right from the tube.

It is quite interesting that people will buy these super expensive high chroma colors, and then mix them with other colors, eventually obtaining a color that could have been achieved by any number of inexpensive earth colors.

If I want to paint grass, I could arive at the color, in many ways, using many different colors. Once the color is reached, it would be very difficult to tell if I started with Hansa yellow, and viridian, or terre verte, and cadmium yellow. Actually, I think it would be impossible to tell which was which.

There are some exceptions of course, as nothing will accomplish the same thing as manganese blue, or cobalt violet, for certain effects, however, the effects are not absolutely necessary, and a similar effect could be done, by painting a passage alla prima, with substiture pigments, rather than relying on glazes. There are many ways to skin a cat.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:58 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigalot
It is not always true. Single pigmented paints can also make a "mud" mixtures when used improperly. White or black (or complement) can reduce dynamic range an often looks mud. Also, there are many brilliantly premixed colours with a great working properties particularly prepared with transparent pigments.
(Indian yellow for example). Transparent 'Hues" is OK.
I guess, mostly white, black or opaque pigments additives in 'hues" reduce working properties and can create "mud" mixtures.
Alex

Some muds are great to paint with. Many of the works of the Reniassance masters, in the museums, were painted with colors many would consider mud, today. However, they focused on the values, and were able to create works that were amazing. I once saw an artist try to copy a velasquez, and used cadmium yellow, instead of yellow ocher. It was high chroma in the robe, and looked horrid. In fact the skin tones were cartoonish, and the whole thing failed. I also like the Indian yellow hues of most manufacturers.
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:49 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Names will trip you up every time, you gotta know what the paint makeup is.
Some are multiple mixes and some are single pigments.
Viridian "hue" in Winton is named Winsor Green in WN artists or Phthalo Green by Utrecht, all are single pigment PG7.
What one maker names PR112 as cad red light "hue", another names Napthol Red (Gamblin) or Fanchon Red (Williamsburg) or Scheveningen Red Medium (Old Holland) or Grumbacher Red (Grumb).
Cad Yellow Pale Hue in Winton is PY74, single pigment, in WN it is now Winsor Yellow, in Shiva Brand it is now Indian Yellow, Gamblin is Hansa yellow, Old Holland is Scheveningen Yellow, another is Azo Yellow.
Same thing for many other colors.
Then some colors are mixes but they are not called hues at all, permanent green light in an artists quality paint may be PG7, PY74, and PW4 or something like that.

Last edited by sidbledsoe : 04-14-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:12 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidbledsoe
Names will trip you up every time, you gotta know what the paint makeup is.


Yes, and with a relatively few colors, one can make almost anything. I think that it is very valuable for artists to buy many different brands, and experiment. Even the same pigment numbers can have different working properties, in different lines. Know what the paint makeup is, and the working properties of the paint.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:23 AM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Some "hue" paints were created to imitate original pigments that are expensive or because they are not as permanent as expected, and that doesn't mean that they are of low quality. Some brands imitate the color caracteristics of the original pigment in a very good way that you don't even notice the difference, especialy in techniques like acrylics or even oils, and they work almost the same with few differences in the mixing proportions. it also depends on the brand and quality you use. Experimenting is the only way you realize the limitations of your paints.
However, you must also know that in some techniques like watercolors, other properties of the pigments (beyond the color appearance) like particle sizes, sedimentation, etc. are important and give specific effects in mixtures. Obviously, hue paints can't imitate all those properties and you couldn't get the same effects that an original pigment could give in a mixture or layer. So, it depends on the technique and the effect you are looking for, that the original pigment could be replaced or not, and you only know that experimenting.

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Old 04-15-2012, 06:46 AM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Termini.
Some muds are great to paint with. Many of the works of the Reniassance masters, in the museums, were painted with colors many would consider mud, today.

Agree. There are no "mud" colours. I guess, word "mud" we use when we try to get high chroma, deep and brilliant color mixture but with worst result. However we like to call such a mixture "Mud", "chalky" e.t.c

Totally agree with Andrés.

Last edited by Gigalot : 04-15-2012 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:03 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

You might consider using artist grade hues which will usually be cheaper than the 'real' paints in the same line, plus there are numerous hues that have superior performance characteristics, with the bonus of not being toxic (like some of the 'classic' pigments) and being more permanent, etc.

One can go broke trying to try everything-- take it a little at a time, developing your color-mixing sense all the while...
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:35 PM
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Re: Do "Hues" mix differently to actual pigments

There's no rule that a multi-pigment 'hue' color will make duller mixes than a single-pigment color, it depends on the pigments in question and the color you're trying to mix. As already mentioned, multi-pigment 'hues' often mix noticably differently than the single-pigment original (sometimes to higher chroma!), though some 'hue' colors are practically indistinguishable in practice. A very good Alizarin Crimson Hue is supposedly indistinguishable from the real thing in practise.

With the 'hue' colors (whether single or multi-pigment), a more important consideration IMO is opacity. Some colors I absolutely need to be reasonably opaque and the hues often aren't opaque enough (but because of the pigments used and the pigment load - not because of the number of pigments it's composed of).

Whichever pigments you have to work with (original single-pigment or multi-pigment 'hues'), you eventually get used to their mixing characteristics and learn to automatically adjust and work with what you've got. But if the cheaper 'hue' colors are making things difficult for you because of a specific deficiency in what they can do, it might be worth it try upgrading. Just my $0.02.
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