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Old 04-06-2012, 06:36 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

You are certainly entitled to your opinions Caryl. The problem is that this is an open forum and comments like this are negative and inflammatory. Did you think how this would be viewed by all the artists who aspire to be hyperrealists? Just because you have an opinion you don't always have to express it. You could have ended your comment at "I am not a fan of the style, if you had, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:23 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

I do not believe that our Members who participate actively in these discussions are purposefully trying to hurt people's feelings. And, indeed, everyone is truly entitled to their opinions.

However... some of the statements do read as judgemental... and they do read quite negatively... and they do sound contentious. Tom put some of them in quotes in his post...

Frankly phrases such as "slavishly copying" or "technical rendering" (etc.) when describing someone's art is counterproductive... When you express your opinions in that manner, people are going to interpret them negatively...

The original question wasn't the issue, Virgil... I'm sure you've read this thread... so claiming surprise that it's denigrated yet again to this level is... well... surprising...

Offering opinions and contributing to discussions is exactly what we should be doing... seemingly derisive comments, whether spoken directly or IMPLIED have no place here...

You know... just because you CAN say a thing doesn't mean you SHOULD say that thing...
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:52 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Why not premote and celebrate watercolour in ALL its forms?

.... we are, I hope, all HUGE fans of watercolour and it would be great and would help premote the medium far more if we could work together rather than suggest or imply that one form might be 'better' than another form.

You dont see this in the big watercolour society exhibitions, You don't often see it either between us professional artists, We each celebrate each others skill in creating what has been created regardless of style. It would be a sad old world if everyone was the same and produced the same kind of art.

So I guess I'm just saying please step back and even if it isnt a style you would personally do, try to appreciate what skill, thought and effort has gone into it and this applies to realistic or impressionistic or abstract or indeed any style of watercolour. Each has its place in the art world.

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Old 04-06-2012, 08:15 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Quote:
Originally Posted by watercolourfanatic
Bill you earlier said you `don't like to deal' 'in absolute statements because of the problems they can cause. I think your latest comments are out of order. `Unnecessary and inflammatory' I'm just amazed at such an extreme interpretation of my comments. A really selective use of words taken out of context. I have my views and I see no need to apologize for them. No, in general I'm not a lover of super realism. why should I say anything different if that's how I feel? It appears I'm a philistine to hold such views. Paint in any way you like that's a personal decision. Loose, or as I prefer it, impressionistic painting isn't everyones cup of tea (or coffee) either. Plenty of people are not fond of abstraction and say so. Where I express my opinions I try to do so in in a reasonable way and don't deal in abuse or near abuse but, as already said have been very surprised at how sensitive this topic is, something I wasn't previously aware of. I'm just a hobby painter and have no illusions that my views carry any weight nor do I wish they did. I don't seek confrontations either, life's too short for such nonsense.





Peter


Peter, you are a wordsmith. You write books, articles, blogs and lengthy responses on forums here. To say you didn't realize the impact your words would have is a fantasy. You choose your words carefully and know fully the impact they will have and how they will be received. To fall back on the " I'm just a hobby painter and don't seek confrontations" is to duck responsibility for statements you have made once the fire got hot.

I usually don't like to get involved in discussions like this because no ones point of view is ever changed but some of the statements made have really annoyed the - - - - out of me. Peter if you choose to explore this further feel free to PM me, I think we've wasted enough of this forums time.
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:47 AM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Bill I'm not going to pm you as I don't want to get involved with you again in any shape or form. I've had enough of your personal vitriol and your apparent ability to read my thoughts. You are right on one thing and one thing only. This whole thread has turned into something unpleasant and a waste of time. I suggest the mods delete it. I'm surprised they've allowed it to continue so long.

Peter
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Old 04-07-2012, 05:14 AM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Please people, can't we just have a discussion without getting into these spats? It brings the whole thread to an unwarranted end when this happens.

We are all supposed to be adults here, let's try acting like it and not go off in a huff or get personal with comments about one another.

You can give your personal feelings about an art style without trying to denigrate someone who feels differently, I hope.

Geez,

Sylvia
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:33 AM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

I find hyper-realism or photo realism for its own sake somewhat uninteresting. it is a fantastic display of skill, but if. That is all the artist is seeking to accomplish...

The current issue of one of the watercolour magazines has a cover story on working series and features an artist whose work I very much admire. He paints photorealistic stones and sticks in diptych and triptych compositions, often set against plain white backgrounds. In a context like this I can very much enjoy photorealism. It is being used as a tool to achieve a desired artistic outcome, not just as a technical end in itself.

I find the same applies to both loose and abstract painting as well. If the style chosen is part of a planned overall artistic effect or work it is much more interesting than if it is done as just a technical effect.

I think part of the lack of respect for photorealism in painting may come from our being continually surrounded by hyper-realistic images. Almost every image we see today is photorealist, either computer or camera generated. In times before the advent of high speed colour photography the technical skills required to produce a photorealistic image and the image itself really "popped" in a way that they don't today.

I have seen the same thing in other fields. Many contemporary craftsmen have to intentionally make errors in craftsmanship so hat their work will look "handmade". When you look at old craftsmanship the ideal was a perfection of surface an detail with no marks of "hand" visible.

For me what matters most is that a piece of art strikes a chord and moves something in me. The chosen style and technique is secondary to this.
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Virgil,

I'm all in favor of stating what one likes, asking questions of genuine interest and pushing the edges. I think that the tone changes when it's a challenge to someone as to WHY they do what they do. It's ok to ask why but when it's intoned as a negative it becomes problematic. For example:

Caryl said. "but honestly, why not stick with the photo if it's that close, It just doesn't impress me artistically... " (Please Caryl, I don't mean to pick on you personally, it's just your line happens to be relevantly immediate in this discussion. I use it as an example)

She then says that it should be ok to say one doesn't like white chocolate. I agree totally. It should be ok to say I don't like white chocolate. But let's continue the analogy to match the actual quote. It would not be ok to continue and say, "How can you like white chocolate? Why don't you just pour cream and white sugar down your throat !" I hope this makes my point a little more clear.

We (realists and sometimes surrealists) are not that naive to think that everyone likes how we paint. It's a completely natural for differences in taste to exist. Right brain, left brain, etc. I also don't think people are being too sensitive. It's great to challenge someone as to how they did something; why they chose a particular view, composition or color; what decisions they made in their execution, etc. Personally, it's not great to attach a value judgement to these same comments. This is where we have to be more considerate of each other. I would take no offense to anyone challenging the number of brush strokes that I use to achieve my detail. If the challenge is straight forward and well intentioned, I can respond with an honest answer. For instance, if one were to say, "you know, you can get the same impression of detail if you allow for colors to mix randomly in that same area", that would be something of interest for me to consider. But if one just happens to express that my brush stroke count is a waste of time then that gets to be unnecessary. It may be their honest opinion, but what positive contribution would that be to our general discourse? Truth be told, it really gets tiring when the comments are layered with that tone. I'm know that there are many folks that no longer participate in WC because of that. They continue to lurk, watch and learn but they do not offer opinion. As a forum this is our greatest loss. Try going back in time to old old threads and see some incredible artists that are no longer around.

For most of us, coming to WC is a fun hobby, escape, adventure, social gathering, classroom and gallery for participating in this wonderful pursuit of watercolor. It should be a sanctuary for us, an oasis for us to meet on a common ground.

I'm out.

Tom
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Last edited by MtLookout : 04-07-2012 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Perhaps part of the issue with hyper realism is trying to understand the motivation and intent of the painter.

For example, many painters who are early in their painting journey may think that being able to execute hyper realistic paintings is the ultimate and supreme goal for painting achievement--simply because it's so technically challenging. Thus, these painters may strive for this goal which is illusionary at best, since there are a very wide range of "supreme goals" in painting.

This somewhat naive thinking (naive because it's happening very early in the painting career) may be furthered by teachers who give their students projects involving cut crystal glass and chromed reflections as a "supreme" test of painting skill, without considering or communicating that skill alone, without a painterly intent, is simply a eye-hand exercise! I see-I copy!

At the other end of the spectrum, however, may be mature painters who choose to paint in a hyper realistic approach because that's their interest and intent, deliberately and thoughtfully chosen after a long painting career. This is a very, very different situation than an early painter striving to increase skill levels. Mature painters have strong, consistent skills and strive to use them in personal and expressive ways, regardless of their individual approach to making paintings.

But here's the rub: as Horsa said, everyone is surrounded these days with hyper realistic images from every direction--TV, movies, internet, newspaper, etc. Even animations may be hyper realistic these days!

And while hyper realistic images can be artfully formed and presented in all of these venues, the majority are simply a recording of the facts before moving on to the next subject to be recorded and presented, much as the front page of one's newspaper changes every day, yet is numbingly the same every day.

Thus many observers may be rather casual about such a constant volume of hyper realistic imagery, making it even more challenging for painters deliberately laboring in hyper realism to strike an engaging emotional and innovative chord with many observers. I think it's an uphill climb--achievable but difficult. Dedicated hill climbers, on the other hand, are enthused about the gradient and gladly take on the challenge.

Every approach to painting has its respective strenghts and weaknesses--it's appealing and non-appealing characteristics. Some of us like rock climbing and some prefer, I dunno, swimming, to stretch the metaphor beyond its limits.

In the Renniasance, I suspect (I wasn't there--really) hyper realistic painting might have been a marvel. Certainly that was what painting of a period was about--recording what travelers saw for the benefit and amazement of those who didn't have the means to travel.

Today, it seems to me that symbolic and interpretative works may gather the lion's share of critical commentary simply because they offer viewers something they otherwise don't see and may not consider. The common place is just that: common.

So what's a painter to do? Whatever they wish. It may help, however, to understand and deal with the territory that goes with a given painting approach, whatever it may be.

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Old 04-07-2012, 12:45 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Horsa, I appreciate the manner in which you've presented your opinions concerning this subject. I will say again, that a realistic painting is not necessarily a copy of something... it can be an expression of a composition that's painted in a very realistic manner.

The assumption that hyper-realism is merely copying photographs is an unfortunate one. I really don't believe any one of you can know whether or not the painting is merely a recording of some real-life event. And, interestingly enough, most loose paintings are recordings of some real-life event... they're just painted differently...

Virgil, I have to say that I take exception to some of your statements in your last post...

Quote:
part of the issue with hyper realism is trying to understand the motivation and intent of the painter
Why in God's name would this be exclusive to realistic paintings... The issue ISN'T with the style... I often don't understand or I misinterpret the "intent" of many so called fast and loose paintings... abstractions or surrealisms... it doesn't matter... my point here is that realists may or may not execute their intent the same as every other artist.
Quote:
This somewhat naive thinking (naive because it's happening very early in the painting career) may be furthered by teachers who give their students projects involving cut crystal glass and chromed reflections as a "supreme" test of painting skill, without considering or communicating that skill alone, without a painterly intent, is simply a eye-hand exercise! I see-I copy!
Wow... emerging artists need to begin at the beginning and this paragraph isn't relevant to the subject... except to suggest that Teachers are moulding a plethora of hyper-realistic Students going out into the art world... And, I would suggest that the phrase "naive thinking" is quite judgemental.
Quote:
Today, it seems to me that symbolic and interpretative works may gather the lion's share of critical commentary simply because they offer viewers something they otherwise don't see and may not consider. The common place is just that: common.
So... who, exactly, is gathering and making this lion's share of critical commentary? Where did this observation come from? And, I have had the pleasure of viewing many, many paintings of common every day objects that were NOT just common...

Tom, I agree with you about those Artists who tired of the preconceived notions and criticisms that left them feeling "less" than artistic or creative... Several names come to mind, and they "gave" much more than they "got"... it's, sadly, our loss...

It doesn't bother me if you don't like what I do... but, it does make me feel bad when you berate me because of what I do... therein lies the difference...
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:09 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Millions of artist around the planet paint in varied mediums. I paint my father paints and I have friends that paint. All of us paint in different styles and interpretations, yet we all are artist within our style of painting.
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:27 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Since this subject matter seems to be coming up over and over again and just in case you would like to read more opinions, maybe even your own previous ones, here are some of the previous discussions.

I am going to save this post so when this subject is approached once again, I can just give you the links to this and the previous threads

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ighlight=loose

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ighlight=loose

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ighlight=loose

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124329

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ighlight=loose

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ighlight=loose

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Old 04-07-2012, 01:36 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Oh for Goodness sake !
Look in any Art History book and you will see it ALL.
Appreciated for what it was from the early cave painters to the present .
Open up your minds .
June
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Old 04-07-2012, 02:12 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Photographic images do surround us everywhere. Hyperrealist paintings actually don't. They're pretty rare. I wish people bothered enough to notice the difference.

A few pages back I posted a quote from a Wikipedia article about Hyperrealism as an artistic movement, what its historical roots were, what its artistic intents are, how it is different from Photorealism, how it's different from just copying photographs. It seems most people don't care about that, and this thread has become more about any painting that has a lot of realistic detail, and why not just call them all hyperrealistic for convenience. It becomes okay to just take a term and use it anyway you want and declare that the artists who are part of the movement (or maybe part of a different movement but have a bit of a resemblance) don't have an artistic intent, or their intent is what I feel like it must be. I see folks do the same thing when talking about Impressionism, Realism and other movements. It doesn't matter what Impressionism was really about, it only matters what I want it to mean.

I understand that many people don't especially want to spend time reading about art theory, but it is respectful to acknowledge when you don't really know the definition or intent of an artistic movement rather than make stuff up about it.

A quote from Hyperrealist artist Denis Peterson's Artist Statement: "This particular body of work is not simply about perfection in imagery. Nor is it about the craft of merely duplicating photographic representations. By contrast, it is a compendium of paintings which function as a new simulacra.
My photographs are utilitarian source references. They serve as a foundational framework from which to work. Significant changes to the images are made during months of painting and drawing. Ambient light, shaded spatial color, compositional balance, atmospheric perspective and altered depths of field are introduced in the work, wherein resulting illusions of scale, depth, movement, shadow, etc., transform the image into a convincing reality." http://www.denispeterson.com/GalleryPage.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by ona
Why not premote and celebrate watercolour in ALL its forms?

.... we are, I hope, all HUGE fans of watercolour and it would be great and would help premote the medium far more if we could work together rather than suggest or imply that one form might be 'better' than another form.

You dont see this in the big watercolour society exhibitions, You don't often see it either between us professional artists, We each celebrate each others skill in creating what has been created regardless of style. It would be a sad old world if everyone was the same and produced the same kind of art.

So I guess I'm just saying please step back and even if it isnt a style you would personally do, try to appreciate what skill, thought and effort has gone into it and this applies to realistic or impressionistic or abstract or indeed any style of watercolour. Each has its place in the art world.

Ona

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Old 04-07-2012, 02:17 PM
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Re: Discussion point - Hyper-realistic paintings

Whoa! Lots of tender toes here, making it very difficult, perhaps impossible, to voice thoughts and ideas, not to mention personal experiences. Hard to know where to walk without someone's toes being mashed without intention.

Tip-toe and away!
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