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-   -   Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=597782)

arnoud3272 07-17-2014 03:13 PM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Kiran - Sorry to have to say about the table drawings: too much thinking, not enough common sense :(.
The abstract form of a table is a box with big holes in the side. Does this remind you of a box ?



I don't like the perennial explanations of 1PP, 2PP in tutorials. Those are mathematical concepts that rarely have any use in real drawings/paintings.

Look here:
Horizontal parallel lines that lie in the "plane of the paper", i.e. perpendicular to the line of sight, do not converge.
Vertical parallel lines do not converge.
In sets of horizontal parallel lines, all lines converge to the same VP on the horizon line.
(Other lines are not treated in this basic class)

That is the same information, but without the danger of mixing semantics with mathematics.

Common errors can be illustrated with a very basic example, the railroad tracks:


In particular, your VP's do not lie on the same horizontal. And all lines in a set must go to the same VP, not two by two as in your drawing.




I guess you erred because you were thinking too much. The drawing of your room was correct, with one obvious exception.

:wave:

Pirou 07-18-2014 02:59 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Thank you, Arnoud! It's a good thing I didn't move forward to lesson 3, as I am still making mistakes. In this case, though, sigh, Iím afraid itís the opposite - a lack of thinking on the tables rather than an excess of thinking (as I did on the room drawing). The room took me a lot of time and logic (including that preliminary attempt to try to find the vanishing points). But with the tables I tried to relax, work less laboriously, and include more data from what I see and less data from the rules.

Also, I drew the table top as I saw it, and then I just completely forgot to use the concept of the box to help place the lengths of the table legs to match (also less thinking).

From my imagination, I can easily draw boxes and tables following the guidelines for however many vanishing points on the horizon, but when looking at a subject in real life, I donít see the lines of a box extending to the vanishing point. Thatís what I was saying with the first drawing, that I couldnít see how the edges could possibly extend to VPs on the horizon line, and so then I just arbitrarily applied the mathematical rules in contradiction to what I actually saw (thinking).

In the tables, I did the opposite. Instead of applying the mathematical guidelines (thinking), I tried to more draw what I see (common sense). If the object in real life doesnít seem to follow the rules of perspective, should we arbitrarily impose them on the drawing anyway? Iím trying to brush up on my perspective in order to more easily draw from life, but I canít yet understand how to match up what is in real life with the guidelines for perspective.

Although I drew from life before taking any photos of the table, I did this exercise just now:



These vanishing points to not appear to lie on the same horizontal to me, but I know itís not just the distortion of the camera in this case, because this is also what I saw with my eye while doing the drawing (more or less.) Is it the case that the rules of perspective are just an optical illusion to make the drawing more lifelike, even if life itís not really what we see at all?

arnoud3272 07-18-2014 05:29 PM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Kiran -

Quote:

If the object in real life doesnít seem to follow the rules of perspective, should we arbitrarily impose them on the drawing anyway?

Do you doubt about the principles illustrated by the railroad tracks above?
If you accept these, they are the result of rays of light reflected from the objects. Do you think it reasonable that rays of light remember where they come from and react differently according to their origin?
The title of this classroom "Draw what you see" really means "Do not draw what you think you see, learn to see the exact abstract forms".

Don't pretend you saw this in real life; I don't buy it.



Our eyes play tricks, many beginners will swear that they see the back edge of a table top larger than the front. You could measure distances and angles with a knitting needle or so. That is however a technique that needs practice before you can use it accurately. But than you will see that what seemed not to follow the rule, is indeed as art schools teach since the 17th century.

Further:
Do NOT trust photographs, all photos taken by amateur cameras distort the perspective - among a lot of other things :(. I have superficially corrected the distortion in your photo.



Although a bit off, it is clear that the 4 VL's of each VP come together, not 2 by 2. And also it looks OK-ish that the far VP is on the same horizon line. And of course, this is an example - as suggested by Sara - where you would better choose to draw it in 1PP.

:wave:

Pirou 07-18-2014 09:02 PM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Hi Arnoud.

Thank you for your continued explanations.

No, I don't doubt the principles shown by the railroad tracks at all. Just trying to figure out how to apply them to what is in front of me when it's not something as obvious as railroad tracks receding into the distance directly in front of me.

No, I don't pretend I saw those legs where they appear in my drawing. I was using the knitting needle measuring technique (using my pencil) and, as I mentioned, forgot to look at the legs as the bottom of the cube. I look forward to that technique improving with the practice that you mention.

I feel more confident about the shape of the top of the table, though, and as you pointed out, the two sets of edges to the left and right do not recede to vanishing points on the same horizontal. That's what I am trying to work out.

I only use the photograph to try to show you what I am struggling with because that's the only way I have to illustrate what I'm looking at, since we are not here in person. So, if you can recommend a better way to show you what I think I am looking at, I will implement that solution instead.

I could easily draw this table in one-point perspective, but I feel it would then appear to be facing the viewer. That is what I mean by arbitrarily imposing a rule. I feel the right side of this table is slanted away from view, and I wonder whether that slanted feeling would still come across in one-point perspective. I'm going to add that to my list of exercises to try.

Thank you for all your help!

arnoud3272 07-19-2014 04:26 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Kiran -
Perspective is a tool, like measuring with a pencil is a tool. If you are very good at measuring, you will come to the same result. But perspective is much faster, and you don't need painstakingly measure each window sill for instance.
BTW, this class is about learning to use the perspective tool, not about freehand drawing.
:thumbsup:

impressionistwoman 07-26-2014 12:03 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
hello arnoud. i haven't done class 2 yet - i see others are doing 2- point perspective. i am not sure if this is the right place but i'm posting pre-class 2 assignment here /or class 1 homework/whatever it is - anyway this is what i could find. i haven't done the darn tissue box i just reaized. oh gosh, i'll just go on and do class 2 like you said anyway, i've messed around here long enough!

impressionistwoman 07-26-2014 12:06 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 

you're going to need to massively enlarge this to see it. i hope you have decent screen!

impressionistwoman 07-26-2014 12:07 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
there are 5 pictures - each one in a 'cloud'.

impressionistwoman 07-26-2014 03:53 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
oh gosh i think mine's a mess compared to the others. do you want me to do it again? it looks all wrong anyway and i've only attempted 1-point.

i don't think i get it, anyway. grrr. tell me what to do.

i have thousands of ripped up drawings in the bin. so much good paper has been wasted.

i lose heart even for the tiniest smudge or mistake and rip up the piece. i'm a dreadful perfectionist. please hep me. someone said to use tracing paper for practicing but how do i know what is practicing?

i never really know what's going to turn out ok. i can spend hours on something only to throw it away later. or a little practice go is good.

i have a handful of ok pictures!.

what to do to do? help!!! please help me. i badly need to stop this silliness but i don't know how! what should i be doing? i want to learn to draw but i also want to have some fun and make nice pictures. i want to draw people. i like an impressionist style but well done! help!

shell

impressionistwoman 07-26-2014 03:58 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 

arnoud3272 07-26-2014 08:35 AM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
shell -
Relax :).
First of all: FORGET 1PP, 2PP !

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoud
I don't like the perennial explanations of 1PP, 2PP in tutorials. Those are mathematical concepts that rarely have any use in real drawings/paintings.

Look here:
Horizontal parallel lines that lie in the "plane of the paper", i.e. perpendicular to the line of sight, do not converge.
Vertical parallel lines do not converge.
In sets of horizontal parallel lines, all lines converge to the same VP on the horizon line.
(Other lines are not treated in this basic class)

That is the same information, but without the danger of mixing semantics with mathematics.

Common errors can be illustrated with a very basic example, the railroad tracks:



Don't underestimate this as being too obvious. Up to 90% of perspective errors are caused by not observing one or two of these intuitive rules.
For a start, most of your entries err on the first principle: "further away looks smaller".
Please don't sketch ten or twenty objects. Do one at a time, and as explained in the first posts of this class: sketch, then check the perspective with vanishing lines and correct if needed. BTW, please do not erase the VL's when posting.

The ONLY mathematical concept that you must learn in this class is the correct nature of a vanishing line. In particular you should recognize that these lines a and b are useless as VL's.



Take heart :thumbsup:.

impressionistwoman 07-28-2014 03:27 PM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
yep. got it. thanx. (i was going a little crazy there for a moment - ready to toss the whole thing over perspective. it's ok now.)

Read946 07-29-2014 02:09 PM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Hello,
I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this question. I need to seriously learn about perspective and just found this page. Can you please direct me to the starting point of the foundation of Perspective. I need to start right at the beginning. How to I join the classroom and find the lectures.. sorry to bother you, but I really need help with this. thanks for your reply.
Val

arnoud3272 07-29-2014 02:48 PM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Val -
Welcome to the classroom :).
Did you skip the "Start Here!" thread?
:wave:

Read946 07-29-2014 10:07 PM

Re: Basics 101: Class 2 - Foundation of Perspective
 
Hi Arnoud,
It's that obvious is it? lol. I did skip that, as for some reason, I got right to this page first, (from google? not exactly sure) and since I haven't been to wet canvas in some time I had forgotten just how to navigate around.. Problem solved as I have read the start here thread. Thanks for your response. I'll be checking things out and hopefully this persective thing will start making some sense. I just find it so confusing, and envy people who get it right.
thanks again Arnoud.
Val


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