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View Full Version : Mediums - Why do YOU use them?


Verdaccio
04-03-2003, 10:41 AM
There are a wide variety of oil painting mediums out there - each with its own characteristics it adds to oil paint.

The Facts about Oil Painting Medium
The purpose of a medium is to get your oil paint into a better working consistency for the way YOU paint. This means that the medium that works for someone who paints smooth and thin will not necessarily work for someone who paints impasto impressionistic.

I get a lot of messages asking about this medium or that - do I like them or not, etc. The impression I get is that many people believe they MUST use a medium and have no clue as to what medium to use and don't seem to understand the purpose of mediums.

The fact is, you don't need to use a medium at all if you can get your paint to dance straight out of the tube. Regardless, you should use a medium that "fits" your style of painting and that feels good under your brush. Where possible, mediums should be limited to about 20% of the paint - using too much of ANY medium can cause problems.

Regardless, it serves us all as painters to experiment with many mediums to find the one that works with how we paint.
______________________________________
So, let's shed some light on them here, shall we?

- What medium(s) do you use and WHY do you use it/them?
- How do you paint (smooth, impasto, etc.) and HOW does the medium "fit" your style?
- What tips would you give to others who want to try this medium?

Verdaccio
04-03-2003, 10:57 AM
WHAT: I use Maroger's medium. Maroger's is a mix of Black Oil (Linseed oil boiled with lead) and Double Mastic Varnish. When mixed together, they form a gel. I was introduced to Maroger by my mentor, William Whitaker.

HOW: I paint smooth and fairly thin and I like the way the Maroger's helps to fuse the edges while at the same time, if I want a stroke to be visible, I can do that too. It has a very nice glide under the brush and it stays open for a very long time and does not drag on the brush at all. I paint fairly fast, and the lead in Maroger's helps to dry the paint faster. Most areas are ready for more paint in a day to two days. You can easily work wet into wet and wet over wet. The varnish in the medium gives the painting a nice surface sheen and adds to the "glow".

TIPS: I mix my Marogers in 1/2 ounce batches and put them into a little plastic cup with a snap lid. That means that the medium is always fresher. I use it quite sparingly dipping my brush into it and then into my paint piles. If you want to try Maroger's, some of the best available can be had at: www.studioproducts.com

Here is a picture taken by Bill Whitaker that shows the components and how it mixes:

Wayne Gaudon
04-03-2003, 11:17 AM
Interesting ..
I paint thick .. lay in with a brush and then use my knife to fire paint around .. as for mediums, I am still in play mode .. have tried Copal - Maronger - Black Oil - Black Oil/Walnut Oil/Turps - Stand Oil - Linsee Oil - Walnut Oil - Oil/Retouch Varnish Stand Oil/Turps .. Lukas 5 ..

I am presently using Stand Oil & Turps for painting as I can make all my little puddles of paint have the same consistency .. I don't use it at all times because with thick paint I can paint directly from the tube but I have found that different paints have different consistencies and I like it when they are all close

I probably add 6 to 8 drops per walnut size or larger of paint.
I use Walnut Oil & Retouch Varnish with a touch of paint for sketching in (when I do a pre sketch on the canvas) as it dries almost on touch and stays in place.

Tips .. don't put varnish in styrafoam as it will eat through it. Black oil is great for helping paint cure faster as it cures from inside out. Too much stand oil will apply a film over thick paint as it dries from outside in. Personal preference dictates that I won't use Copal or Lukas again. Black Oil I do like and may return to it as my sole medium but not untill I paint using other mediums so I can have a good sense of what works best for me.

nam26b
04-03-2003, 11:32 AM
hmmm....at my sad beginner level, I have foud the best medium to be walnut oil, used very sparingly (fat over lean, of course). I like m. graham paints in general, and I use them out of the tube most of the time, but when I need more spreadability or blendability, I add a few drops of walnut oil. I can dilute it a bit more with more oil and a little turp. to get really smooth passages. It feels great to me while painting.If I want thichk passages, I use it straight out of the tube.

The main thing walnut oil does for me is keep things simple and inexpensive. No worries about mixing mediums, permanence, which medium to use, etc.

I'm sure I'll branch out as my knowledge grows, but for now, I like the walnut oil quite a bit.

Nathan

ginatec
04-03-2003, 11:38 AM
I seldom use a medium at all. If I do it is only because the paint is a color I don't use very often and it has gone a bit more solid in the tube. I will use Turpentine in an underwash and then only Turps with a few drops of linseed oil if I need to get finer detail in later stages of the painting.

artbabe21
04-03-2003, 11:44 AM
Michael,
Thanks for shedding some light on a sometimes confusing subject. I have never seen any real need to use a medium since paint from the tube has worked for me and with sensitivities to odors that I have I thought it a better choice for me. I tend to paint on the thin side but am trying to change that. I have older paintings where when the first layer dried, I went into the painting and just began painting again...will this be subject to problems down the road due to not oiling out or using something for adhesion?

Also can you comment on Gamblin's Neo-Meglip which it says it is like Maroger medium but will not darken or crack over time. I am interested in that nice shine/luminosity from this Maroger medium.
Does yours contain much odor?

Verdaccio
04-03-2003, 11:52 AM
Also can you comment on Gamblin's Neo-Meglip which it says it is like Maroger medium but will not darken or crack over time. I am interested in that nice shine/luminosity from this Maroger medium.
Does yours contain much odor?

I object to Gamblin's "darken or crack over time" comment in their marketing of NeoMeglip implying that Maroger's does. I have tried NeoMeg and found that I did not like it very much. I am pretty sure it is an alkyd variant and it dragged on the brush too much for me. Also, I refuse to use mediums that have "super secret" formulas as NeoM does. If I don't know what's in it, I don't want it in my paint. That said however, there are people out there who use it and find that it works for their painting process, so give it a try and evaluate it. :)

I have not noticed much of a smell from Maroger's.

Leopoldo1
04-03-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Verdaccio
TIPS: I mix my Marogers in 1/2 ounce batches and put them into a little plastic cup with a snap lid. That means that the medium is always fresher.
I have used most of the mediums except for amber and have spent a small fortune on testing them. Today I just use a drying oil, mainly walnut or linseed and turps. I have found no magic from any medium that is going to make my paint perform better, my brush slide mysteriously over the canvas, or somehow allow my painting to look any different after drying. On occasion I still use maroger for that thixotropic action and a faster set, especially good in plein aire. Your freshness bit above V, is propaganda from SP. I learned from David Lefell, who passed on his recipe and how to make it years ago. He tubes it up! I have maroger tubes that were made up years ago that I keep in the refrig,and it is as good as if it was made yesterday. This bit about it losing freshness after the black oil and mastic varnish is combined is nonsense! The only advantage of cooking the two separately is, one is able to decant the dirt and debris from the mastic tears before combining with the black oil, otherwise if cooked together the gelling takes place and the debris and dirt is in suspension and impossible to remove……….L

PS: V, I jumped out of the chute too quick on this one. Your idea above is a good one and the snap on lids would work great. I was just exponding on someting else!.......Lhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Apr-2003/1936-bash.gif

artbabe21
04-03-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
I have older paintings where when the first layer dried, I went into the painting and just began painting again...will this be subject to problems down the road due to not oiling out or using something for adhesion?


For some reason I can't seem to get anyone to answer this question......I just don't want to repeat it in case I do something I want to last...:)

andyvry
04-03-2003, 02:34 PM
I should imagine that SOMEONE here will put you out of your misery, Cath.......I'd just say "Don't worry about it"......as I usually do,,,,,,,, in practically every circumstance. :cool:

About the mediums : I do what Ginatec does, whether it's ok to do that sort of thing I don't really know.............it's not something I worry about :D

andy.

Leopoldo1
04-03-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21


For some reason I can't seem to get anyone to answer this question......I just don't want to repeat it in case I do something I want to last...:)

Cee, you should be alright, but you never know. For a little more piece of mine a bit of thinned resin, like damar varnish diluted, that is now called retouch varnish, would help things adhere better. Resins are stickly, glue like, so that next layer could bond better than that new born colt to it's mama!......;).........L

loop
04-03-2003, 04:11 PM
as a greenhorn I use linseed oil, I have tried liquitin to speed drying, but it sped it up too much:(


question : if I add linseed oil along with liquitin would that put the drying time in the middle of those two extreams?

artbabe21
04-03-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Leopoldo
For a little more piece of mine a bit of thinned resin, like damar varnish diluted, that is now called retouch varnish, would help things adhere better. Resins are stickly, glue like, so that next layer could bond better than that new born colt to it's mama!......;).........L

LoL....thanks L......I appreciate it...you're the best

Andy if I don't ask I won't learn!
Not that I actually WORRY about it, what's done is done...:)

jeslearnin
04-03-2003, 04:58 PM
I seldom use a medium. I have tried linseed oil a few times but cant remember when! Bein as I mostly have been just "foolin around" with this painting business, I really dont know what to use if for anyway! Well, I do NOW! I might give this Maroger a shot and see what happens.

I have sometimes used mineral spirits (gasp!) to make a wash for a background. But recently I read you should use turpentine with oil so I have sworn off the mineral spirits now! (any truth to that?) Wonder if anything I have painted will outlast me! I am soooo ignorant to this process! I have painting on drywall for crying out loud! I use every kind of paint from what's left of my Bob Ross set to Grumbacher MAX. Soooo inconsistent have I been! Ahhh, but I am getting serious now, gonna really learn how I should be doing this and with what materials etc.

I finally found that painting on gesso board works best for me. But it seems not a lot of painters use this? I paint thin layers and the gesso board seems to be the smoothest surface I have found for getting details. And it seems to absorb the oil or something because I noticed my paintings dry faster on it, which is good for me. I get impatient!

Thank you, V, for opening up another educational subject!

Linoxyn
04-03-2003, 05:04 PM
Cathleen, I would not worry but... there's always a but :D If you have used only linseed based oil paint (some manufacturers use safflower, poppy, and mixtures of other oils) and that the paints are of high quality with very little to no use of fillers and/or stabilizing agents - just go in and paint. These other paints can create uneven (gloss to dull) surfaces that are not easily habitable to new layers of paint after they have dried for some time... then I'd use a retouch varnish or just lightly and finely sand the surface, no solvent needed (don't sand if you use lead paints). I use mainly Old Holland oils and I have no problem leaving a painting left in it's second stage for a long long time. I just make sure that no dust has settled on the surface and away I paint as if it were just left a few days :)

David O
04-03-2003, 05:22 PM
I've been using egg, walnut oil, casein, stand oil, and liquin in varying mixtures. I like hateful reactions in the paint, if they will stay put- not fall off. I like it to dry fast and be friendly to many layers. I scrape the daylights out of it when it's mostly dry, before painting more on top.

bri
04-03-2003, 05:42 PM
...my painting stuff to focus on drypoints while i situate a studio so i haven't been painting.

...but i love to paint with tube oils and use linseed oil as a medium to improve the flow if too stiff. this is in my paintings and sketches of people, so i am after a specific finish. i retain the stroke (doesn't level like stand oil) yet allows me time to take advantage of all the oily aspects and doesn't dry too quickly.

it is interesting that you rarely hear of just using linseed oil, though it's right there under our noses.

there are so many different finishes to be desired by a person painting in oils-slick and shiny, mat, rough and dry, levelled, piled up, etc. different substances do different things with and to paint.

linseed oil is underrated.

Fredzo
04-03-2003, 05:54 PM
Hello everyone.
Thanks for this good thread! I paint in very thin layers, and personally like using a small bit of refined linseed oil. i work slow, and i like how refined dries to a slighlty more matte finish than other mediums, for me its a good surface for the next layers. of course using damar as the final glossy coat. the finished product is very smooth like glossy paper.

Sometimes poppy oil, or safflower is good for glazing because of reduced yellowing; but the finish is a bit too glossy, and those oils take a loooong time to dry.

Id like to try the stand oil/turps combo some more, but past attempts fail because im slow, and by the time i do the final blending all the turps have evaporated, leaving the very sticky stand oil...

-Fredzo

TomHart
04-03-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by bri
...it is interesting that you rarely hear of just using linseed oil, though it's right there under our noses... linseed oil is underrated.

I tend to agree with you to a certain extent, but there is a reason that more people aren't singing the praises of "straight" linseed oil (stand oil is linseed oil, but thickened).

Stand oil is said not to yellow as much as the "straight" stuff. I can't prove it yet from personal experience; we are talking about "over time". But you will read that in numerous sources, and I have no reason to disbelieve it.

martha gamblin
04-03-2003, 08:01 PM
Hello. The art teacher's suggestion of applying an alkyd resin painting medium on to a dried painting before applying a fresh layer of oil color is good advice. But I would suggest that you thin the alkyd painting medium with between 20 & 50% solvent. The idea is not to create a paint layer but to use the alkyd resin to adhere the new painting onto the old. Most importantly, paint "wet into wet." Apply the alkyd resin layer and start the new painting before the alkyd resin dries. Contact the manufacturer of the medium you prefer to find out the most appropriate solvent to use when extending the medium.

Also, painters today do not have to rely on folk wisdom, myth or emotion to understand their materials. Those who have questions about the darkening and cracking of megilp or its 20th century incarnation, Maroger, can contact conservation scientists at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC or read their published research.

As to Neo-Megilp, the medium is based on alkyd resin and Gamsol pure odorless mineral spirits. We prize Megilp for its working properties not its chemical composition. Best regards, Martha

Titanium
04-03-2003, 08:13 PM
No medium and I am finding that the practice of
the limited palette is the answer to what I was
looking for.

Stand oil thinned with walnut oil will dry slowly
and strengthen the coat.No need to use a solvent.
Use very sparingly in the last coat.

My white is however handmulled with 5% stand
oil added on to the walnut oil binder.

Stand Oil though it starts of as a normal drying oil
[ can be any drying oil not only linseed oil.]has
been rearranged into a different combination.
Trouble is I haven't found anyone willing to list
the chemical breakdown.
Titanium

* Zirconium is the drier in commercial paints and
it also polymerises drying oils like lead driers.

However I wonder if your already using a polymerised
oil [ stand oil ] do you need to polymerise the oil
further ???

guillot
04-03-2003, 09:29 PM
It depends on what I'm doing, the consistency of the paint I'm after, whether or not I want it matte or shiny...........It just DEPENDS :D

BUT yes, I do use them.

Hi Titanium!! Missed you, where have you been???


Tina

ctcummins
04-03-2003, 10:21 PM
l

artbabe21
04-04-2003, 02:12 AM
for adding your comments to this discussion, these things are so subjective it's difficult to sort out...:) I appreciate you weighing in on the Neo-Meglip, does it contain lead as the Maroger does { I am sure I read it did}

Lino, thanks guy......I appreciate your advice, yes I do use high grade oils, not OH but not the cheap stuff either...;)

snuffy
04-04-2003, 10:17 AM
Actually I use two different mediums. For more serious work, I use walnut oil w/ a tiny amount of japan drier ( which is cobalt napthenate, as far as I can tell) added. My background is acrylics and the slow drying time for oil is somewhat annoying.
For quick sketch work not meant to be kept, I use (please try not to laugh out loud) a mix of 1/3 linseed oil, 1/3 turpentine and 1/3 McCloskey Heirloom varnish, either eggshell or flat. All of this the finest hardware store quality.

impressionist2
04-04-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Titanium
No medium and I am finding that the practice of
the limited palette is the answer to what I was
looking for.

Stand Oil though it starts of as a normal drying oil
[ can be any drying oil not only linseed oil.]has
been rearranged into a different combination.
Trouble is I haven't found anyone willing to list
the chemical breakdown.
Titanium





Titanium, I worry about this sometimes. I use stand oil/ turpenoid 50/50, could not paint without it. The paintings dry in ten days. Like painting with very thick soup. I love it.

I'd like to see one of these paintings in about three years and see if that medium holds up, cracks, or what the resulting effects might be. I do have one large one still-the rest sold- and plan on keeping it. I guess that will be my test painting.

Have to order that frame soon!

Renee

Painter Snoopy
04-05-2003, 05:01 PM
I use Liquin. It is all I know about. I am interested in the Maroger stuff. I am confused though. :confused: When painting in glazes over monochrome how can you only use twenty percent medium? Glazes have to be pretty transparent. I confuse so easily. I want my paintings to be around hundreds of years from now. I tend to paint thinly and need to use mediums. I have no idea what is best. I always liked the Liquin but now I hear bad things about it and don't know what to do. I have seen some of my paintings that are a few years old and they seem to be holding up quite well. No cracking or delaminating. One that I had painted in school had faded a little because of using student grade paint.(winton) But it was 'healthy' otherwise. Argh. Confusion abounds!

Verdaccio
04-06-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Painter Snoopy
:confused: When painting in glazes over monochrome how can you only use twenty percent medium? Glazes have to be pretty transparent. I confuse so easily. I want my paintings to be around hundreds of years from now. I tend to paint thinly and need to use mediums. I have no idea what is best. I always liked the Liquin but now I hear bad things about it and don't know what to do. I have seen some of my paintings that are a few years old and they seem to be holding up quite well. No cracking or delaminating. One that I had painted in school had faded a little because of using student grade paint.(winton) But it was 'healthy' otherwise. Argh. Confusion abounds!

Steph:

On Glazing:

The thing about the monochrome underpainting technique that throws a lot of people is that is seems to work best when the color stage is a combination of glazing AND opaque painting, not just glazing everything.

Glazing is not about what medium you use - it is about what paint you use and how you apply it to the surface.

You can glaze with any medium (or no medium at all), but not with any paint. Glazing is best done with a transparent or semi-transparent paint.

You can take pure Ultramarine Blue from the tube and lay a little out with a brush. Begin tapping it with the brush perpendicular to the surface and spreading it out - it will keep getting lighter and lighter as you tap. Ultramarine is a transparent paint. That is a glaze and no medium was involved at all. You can spread it out with a brush, your finger, a rag, etc. The thing that makes it a glaze is the fact that you are using a paint that is transparent in its nature.

I am going to start a new topic to address your Liquin issue as I think people might like to see it and discuss it further.

Painter Snoopy
04-06-2003, 01:11 PM
Thank you so much Michael. I need much more info and you are helping me immensely.

Pilan
04-09-2003, 03:00 AM
I clicked on a link in the upper right hand corner where the revolving links pop up. It was about a guy name Victor Cox.

He supposedly has a great medium by the way he talks. Does anyone know anything about this medium he sells?

He calls it paint like the masters medium.

http://www.paintlikethemasters.com/

I am curious to hear from anyone who knows about this.

Pilan

Titanium
04-09-2003, 08:10 AM
There is no medium that will make you paint like an old master !

The information coming back from the research on
Old Master works says there is nothing in the paint
other than pigment,drying oil and a little pine resin.

The pine resin is only used where needed.
Unlike the modern practice of applying medium
all over the painting from the first layers to the last
layer.

The two big questions are ,

[1] What exactly is Heat-Bodied Oil ?

Is there a cooked in resin hidden by heat decomposition ?
Or has it all been discovered ?

[2] The Pine Resin - is it traces of old turpentine ?

The real change is in the technique of paint application,preparation for painting [ drawing / oil studies ] .
Seen in the work of Titian down to Rubens/Van Dyck
Rembrandt/Velasquez and ultimately,W.Bougureau.

It is in applying the training of seeing,by drawing/painting
with imagination and heart that oil painting truly progresses.
Titanium

Verdaccio
04-09-2003, 10:50 AM
Yea, gotta agree with T here.

You will notice that Mr. Cox's paintings are quite nicely done.

I assure you that while he enjoys the medium he uses (Maroger) it was not the medium that made him paint like that - it was study and skill.

Further, some of his claims on the site are at worst just plain wrong or at best completely unproven.

Maroger Medium is great stuff, but it won't make you a master painter. You have to rely on yourself for that.

Hopefully version #2 of the site will improve some of the hype and fluff and just rely on selling his skill as a teacher with something to teach people.

There is no magic bullet in painting.

Linoxyn
04-09-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Titanium
There is no medium that will make you paint like an old master !

In the broad picture this may be a true statement Titanium. Though it's amazing that not only us artists perpetuate the search it also seems that the 'experts' do as well. Research has not put this concept away, they feed it with grant money all for a higher understanding of the construction of old and newer Master paintings.

Most of the Masters you mention did use some alchemy knowingly, unwittingly, or sometimes following trends to adjust the handling of their paint. Every effect cannot be sought after in one paint, medium, or technique though still within these confines there is enough variety to consume more than one lifetime.

Slowdown
04-10-2003, 06:32 PM
Great thread, lots of great info, especially for a beginner like myself.
I do use mediums, or should I say medium. i enjoy painting in thick impasto techniques so the medium that I have found that lets me do this is W&N oleopasto. It allows me to paint as thick as I please and it dries quickly. I can be very impatient whilst waiting for something to dry so this medium fits my technique perfectly.

Pilan
04-11-2003, 01:21 AM
I want to know if any of you have ever try his product. I am very much aware of the study and skills it takes to paint like old masters. Its what he calls the stuff.
I have wanted to try the maroger medium but haven't. I do agree he words it like its the SECRET recipe to painting well. Ha! thats sort of like time in a bottle & magical pills :eek:

Just wondering if anyone has used his product.

Pilan

Originally posted by Verdaccio
Yea, gotta agree with T here.

You will notice that Mr. Cox's paintings are quite nicely done.

I assure you that while he enjoys the medium he uses (Maroger) it was not the medium that made him paint like that - it was study and skill.

Further, some of his claims on the site are at worst just plain wrong or at best completely unproven.

Maroger Medium is great stuff, but it won't make you a master painter. You have to rely on yourself for that.

Hopefully version #2 of the site will improve some of the hype and fluff and just rely on selling his skill as a teacher with something to teach people.

There is no magic bullet in painting.

Verdaccio
04-11-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Pilan
I have wanted to try the maroger medium but haven't. I do agree he words it like its the SECRET recipe to painting well. Ha! thats sort of like time in a bottle & magical pills :eek:

Just wondering if anyone has used his product.

Pilan



It is my medium of choice. Great stuff. He is right about one thing, you can buy the best Maroger from Cennini www.studioproducts.com.

But remember, Maroger is a great medium, but any medium is only as good as the hand behind the brush.

rmichak
04-11-2003, 11:13 AM
I'm sorry Verdaccio but I simply must take exception to your promotion of Studio Products maroger as the be-all, end-all of maroger mediums. Rob's claim that the chemical reaction which makes maroger do what it does ceases to occur after so many days is laughable. This unbelievably preposterous claim is no better than Gamblin's contention that cadmium and lead in oil paint will somehow jump out of the suspension and kill you immediately and force the state to bulldoze your house/studio under and build a concrete dome over the remains. This is of course an exaggeration, and I respect the Gamblin's willingness to explore alternatives for those who really cannot tolerate certain chemicals, but some of their claims are hard for me to take when they've been parrotted so many times by less knowledgable folks who preach these claims as gospel for beginners who may not have any sensitivity to the chemicals. As Leo rightly pointed out, artists such as David Leffel and many others of INTERNATIONAL prominence have used tubed maroger for YEARS to create beautiful works of art that will endure long after you and I have shuffled off. The only reason to cook the two primary constituents of maroger medium seperately is to facilitate removal of the junk from the mastic. That's it. This claim you are parroting is junk science of the worst kind and I can't believe I'm reading it from you. I am sincerely suprised.

There is no 'best' maroger. Only that which an artist prefers and which gives him or her the desired effect. As maroger mediums go DAVID DAVIS makes the absolute best maroger medium ever cooked, and it is quite a bit cheaper than SP, I might add. But as I said this is just my opinion and I am not given free materials from David Davis Co. for stating it. I believe it to be so merely because I have used it for years. Williamsburg also makes a very respectable product as does three or four other companies. The only maroger I would ever tell anyone to stay away from would be the Sennelier and L&B products because neither one is really maroger. But then again the claim of Sennelier and L&B to the contrary is no worse than SP's claim that the magical reaction ceases after a couple days. Both are Laughable in the extreme!

http://www.daviddavisart.com

Edited: I am not implying that you are being given special consideration or renumeration of any kind from the Wizard of Oz for your endorsement. I don't think you are that kind of person based on your willingness to help so many here and elsewhere.

With Respect,
R. L. Michak

Verdaccio
04-11-2003, 11:28 AM
R.L.:

Well, if you go back and read my post, you will note that I don't talk about the "chemical decomposition theory of Rob's" but I have to say that I prefer to mix the Maroger in small batches because I like how it handles when it is fresh more than I like how it handles when it is older.

Having used it when it has just gelled and also when it is over a week old, there is a difference in how it handles - the fresh stuff goes farther and feels better to me under the brush.

So I mix it fresh in small batches and try to use it up in a couple of days.

Without a doubt, the Cennini Maroger is very high quality stuff made from quality ingredients.

I have not tried the David Davis Maroger so I cannot speak to it.

kjsspot
04-11-2003, 12:03 PM
Michael, how do you use it? I mean, I looked on the website and I didn't see that info. Do you just mix it or do you have to cook it? And do you premix in the paint or dip your brush first, then in the paint? Do you paint your entire surface with it or add to the paint only? And is it just for improving the stroke or does it speed drying?

So far I've only used Liquin & Copal and am about to try Lukas 5 for thick, fast paint. My main purpose for the use is the speed of drying. I like being able to get on with the next layer by the next day. If I had more storage space, perhaps I wouldn't mind waiting longer, but I don't. Anyhoo, I understand that mediums are not magic but I'm still confused as to what medium serves what purpose. I mean, what is the difference between liquin, copal, maroger, etc, etc, etc. There are so many different things out there and I've yet to find a good resource that explains what each is for and, practically, what the differences are. I mean, I can probably find the differences on what they are made from, but not for what they are used. I haven't even been able to figure the difference between Liquin & Copal and I've used both. LoL

Thanks for any light you could shed on this confusing issue. :D

artbabe21
04-11-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by kjsspot
and am about to try Lukas 5 for thick, fast paint.

You might want to read the thread, Thicker paint, how? in the oils Hall of Fame at the top of the threads. Lukas 5 was tried by a number of people that reported dissapointing results...:( I still have some to get rid of...:)

kjsspot
04-11-2003, 12:33 PM
LoL I did read that. I bought some off of someone else there that wanted to get rid of theirs. ;) The people that liked it were using it in the manner that I'm looking to use it so I decided to give it a try. :D

Thicker how? Well, I paint pretty thick in Acrylic. I've yet to do so with the oils due to the time for drying. Here's what I mean by thick.

loop
04-11-2003, 12:38 PM
kjsspot : have you tried oleopesto ?? it is a VERY thick paste for using with oils, If I remember correctly it also speeds drying

artbabe21
04-11-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by kjsspot
LoL I did read that. I bought some off of someone else there that wanted to get rid of theirs.

Oh, yeeeeees, I remember YOU, you bought some off my buddy Wayne who I bought it for here in the US...well traveled Lukas 5.
Good luck with it & if you run out & need more remember I still have some...lol...

loop
04-11-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Slowdown
Great thread, lots of great info, especially for a beginner like myself.
I do use mediums, or should I say medium. i enjoy painting in thick impasto techniques so the medium that I have found that lets me do this is W&N oleopasto. It allows me to paint as thick as I please and it dries quickly. I can be very impatient whilst waiting for something to dry so this medium fits my technique perfectly.


oops I guess I didn't read ALL the posts...sorry for the redundancy;)

Verdaccio
04-11-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by kjsspot
Michael, how do you use it? I mean, I looked on the website and I didn't see that info. Do you just mix it or do you have to cook it? And do you premix in the paint or dip your brush first, then in the paint? Do you paint your entire surface with it or add to the paint only? And is it just for improving the stroke or does it speed drying?

KerryJo:

The Maroger from Studio Products comes in two bottles - the oil and the varnish. You mix them 50/50 (oil into varnish) and they form a gel in a couple of minutes. No cooking on your part required, just mix and use.

I dip my brush into it and then mix it into the paint on the palette. You can use it in all of the ways you describe in your post.

The lead in the oil speeds drying. It is not quite as fast in drying as Liquin is, but you can paint over most passages the next day. What I like about it over Liquin is the fact that your strokes are smoother and longer with Maroger, it stays open for much longer than Liquin which starts to get a bit sticky and drags on the brush. The Maroger also dries to a slight gloss which I like.

Ultimately, a medium is only used to get your paint into a form that works best for you. This may mean that you use no medium at all, or that you like Copal over Liquin or Liquin over Copal or Copal over Maroger. It all depends on how you work, how you like your paint to feel under the brush, and what additional benefits (like drying) you want from the medium.

kjsspot
04-11-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by artbabe21
well traveled Lukas 5.

ROTFLMBO!!! Tooo funny!!! LoL It just arrived. Iffins I like it, I'll be sure to let you know! ;)

loop, no, I haven't tried that yet. I tried some Grumbacher ZEC and didn't like it. It tacked up something fierce and didn't dry for over a week.

kjsspot
04-11-2003, 12:50 PM
Thanks Michael! I didn't want to have to cook anything. Heck, I don't even cook dinner now that my teen is old enough! ;)

Verdaccio
04-11-2003, 01:37 PM
R.L.,

BTW: On the cost of Maroger Medium.

David Davis sells 8 ounces of Maroger for $34
Studio Products sells 10 ounces for $37

Ounce per ounce compared, Studio Products Maroger costs less.

Leopoldo1
04-11-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Verdaccio
R.L.,

BTW: On the cost of Maroger Medium.

David Davis sells 8 ounces of Maroger for $34
Studio Products sells 10 ounces for $37

Ounce per ounce compared, Studio Products Maroger costs less.

Well BTW V, if you really check SP's shipping on anything, which has always been outrageous, (I quit buying from him anymore) you will find that any other vendor would be far less expensive! This freshness bit is BS, so please give us a break on that subject. Also if you want to make it yourself, you can do it for pennies on the ounce, including the cost of shipping it to yourself............L

BTW anybody want to buy some mastic tears pictured below?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Apr-2003/1936-mastic.jpg

Verdaccio
04-11-2003, 02:28 PM
Leo: The "freshness bit" as you call it is not BS to me. I like better when I mix it fresh and use it in a few days.

Further, Studio Products charges "actual" shipping costs. They are no more or less expensive on shipping than anyone else.

Here is an example from an invoice:

______________________
Order Number : 1883
Placed : 11/26/2002 11:30 AM

Code Name Quantity Price/Ea. Total
MED013 Roberson's Medium #16 1 $34.50
MED007 Maroger's Medium [5oz. Black Oil & 5oz. Double Mastic] 1 $36.95
Subtotal: $71.45
Shipping: Ground: $5.93
Sales Tax: $0.00
Total: $77.38
______________________________________

Pilan
04-11-2003, 02:46 PM
Hey Michak both you and Verdaccio looks like live in neighboring towns. How is the weather there today? I used to live in the subdivision over by DTC on something circle hhhmmm it escapes me but the development was about 2 years old when we purchased. Then we move to Parker on 5 acres. I still miss Parker but have fond memories there with the horses and chickens :)

Pilan



Originally posted by rmichak


http://www.daviddavisart.com



With Respect,
R. L. Michak

sunny
04-11-2003, 02:47 PM
Interesting as usual Micheal..

I use a mix of 1/2 stand oil, 1/2 rectified turpintine and a drop or two of damar varnish....this mixture I use for my detailed work, glazing scumbling..etc. I only mix a small amount also...for it does tend to gel..I find if I keep it in the refrigerator..I can get a weeks worth of painting from it....Then I mix fresh...I had the tendancy to keep adding more rectified turpintine to the mix when it would begin to gel...but that left my colors flat...and I was always putting retouch varnish on the flat colors...So now I don't mix with the mix...make fresh..

I love the smoothness of the colors..blending is excellent..and with the addition of the drops of damar....the glazes dry to a degree, rather quickly so that I can scumble into them....

When I am working in a looser style...I do a turpintine wash...then don't use any medium....

So I have to answer your poll with yes and no....

Pilan
04-11-2003, 02:47 PM
Whats mastic tears anyway.

Originally posted by Leopoldo


Well BTW V, if you really check SP's shipping on anything, which has always been outrageous, (I quit buying from him anymore) you will find that any other vendor would be far less expensive! This freshness bit is BS, so please give us a break on that subject. Also if you want to make it yourself, you can do it for pennies on the ounce, including the cost of shipping it to yourself............L

BTW anybody want to buy some mastic tears pictured below?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Apr-2003/1936-mastic.jpg

Leopoldo1
04-11-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Verdaccio
Leo: The "freshness bit" as you call it is not BS to me. I like better when I mix it fresh and use it in a few days.

Further, Studio Products charges "actual" shipping costs. They are no more or less expensive on shipping than anyone else.

Of course it is better if you use it right away, either the two mixes or squeeze it out of a tube, no difference, but use it up for that day, I wouldn't even store it like you are doing since you seem to be so preoccupied about this freshness thing, but judge your proportions better or mix or squeeze more out. Obviously if it is exposed to oxygen for any length of time it is going to start to set up. Mixing the two together or squeezing it out of a tube is the same material, no difference. So this freshness bit is ridiculous by you going on about mixing the two so it is fresher so hopefully your painting will look fresher?

SP must have change there shipping charges, because they use to be off the wall in that area. BTW, it does sound like you are promoting the products over there since I noticed you mention it twice in this same post before all of this debate started. So whats up V?..............L

Verdaccio
04-11-2003, 02:49 PM
Actually, we live in the same town - they all run together into the greater Metro Denver Area. :)

You may remember that we had about 41 inches of snow a couple of weeks ago. Well it is mostly gone and now it is in the 70s and sunny. Parker is a nice little town. :)

Leopoldo1
04-11-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Pilan
Whats mastic tears anyway.

Mastic tears come from one place in the world and that is in Greece, predominately from the island of Chios. Maroger is mastic tears, turpentine, linseed oil and lithrage (lead) combined and cooked together. Mast tears are quite expensive, probably because of its only location and it is picked by hand. In ancient times it was use by the inhabitants as chewing gum. I tried it also since it smells so good, but certainly doesn't taste like its counterpart of scent. Today in Greece they use it exquisite Greek pastry toppings...........L

Verdaccio
04-11-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Leopoldo


Of course it is better if you use it right away, either the two mixes or squeeze it out of a tube, no difference, but use it up for that day, I wouldn't even store it like you are doing since you seem to be so preoccupied about this freshness thing, but judge your proportions better or mix or squeeze more out. Obviously if it is exposed to oxygen for any length of time it is going to start to set up. Mixing the two together or squeezing it out of a tube is the same material, no difference. So this freshness bit is ridiculous by you going on about mixing the two so it is fresher so hopefully your painting will look fresher?

SP must have change there shipping charges, because they use to be off the wall in that area. BTW, it does sound like you are promoting the products over there since I noticed you mention it twice in this same post before all of this debate started. So whats up V?..............L

Leo:

I store the mixed marogers in air tight containers. Again, I like how it handles within the first couple of days BETTER than I like it after it has sat for a week. I pull some out of the container and put it on my palette for the day. What does not get used gets thrown away at the end of the day. The next day I open the container up and pull the medium for that day.

Am I promoting the products over at Studio Products - you bet I am because I like the quality of what I get. I get nothing for it. I also promote Trekell for brushes and Utrecht for linen, and Scott in Utah for the easel he is building for me (should be done soon!).

If you sold something I wanted, bought, and liked, I would promote you too! :D

Leopoldo1
04-11-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Verdaccio


Leo:

I store the mixed marogers in air tight containers. Again, I like how it handles within the first couple of days BETTER than I like it after it has sat for a week. I pull some out of the container and put it on my palette for the day. What does not get used gets thrown away at the end of the day. The next day I open the container up and pull the medium for that day.

Am I promoting the products over at Studio Products - you bet I am because I like the quality of what I get. I get nothing for it. I also promote Trekell for brushes and Utrecht for linen, and Scott in Utah for the easel he is building for me (should be done soon!).

If you sold something I wanted, bought, and liked, I would promote you too! :D


Why not just mix a bit when you need more instead of storing it. Probably the more your get use to this medium you will get the proportions down better. I tried storing things years ago in those little plastic containers you use and they aren't air tight enough. If you wanted to circumvent the waste of the product when you mix too much, and then having to store it for a few days, just tube it up and squeeze it out as you need it.

So would I and I do for products I like, but it certainly sounded like you were after that second post of redundancy in your thread......L

kjsspot
04-11-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Leopoldo
Mastic tears come from one place in the world and that is in Greece, predominately from the island of Chios.

But what are they? Are they a plant resin, a mineral, what? I had no idea that they were edible!

Leopoldo1
04-11-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by kjsspot


But what are they? Are they a plant resin, a mineral, what? I had no idea that they were edible!

A soft pliable resin (all resins come or came from plants) that is gorgeously fragrant. That is one advantage of using margoer, for that divine smell that resonates from the mastic. Forget about that lavendar spike smell, use maroger, if not for it's acclaimed properties, for it's scent. The Scent of a Maroger", oh must have been thinking about that academy award winning movie with Al Pacino. Of course, it could be offensive to others, but I go nuts with euphoria, even when I am in another oil painter's studio, love the smell of the things that go along with that oil painting stuff!..Probably why I never pick up those water color brushes and paints anymore.........L

PS: of course all of those smells can have some side effects.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Apr-2003/1936-drool.gif

kjsspot
04-11-2003, 04:12 PM
Well you've definately got me curious! So if it's edible, than it's also non-toxic? Just the mastic tears I mean, not the rest of the stuff they put in maroger. LoL

rmichak
04-11-2003, 04:12 PM
It's sunny and warm today in Aurora, and I'm fantasizing about 18 holes at Saddle Rock, but before this week I've been @ss-deep in snow for longer than I care to contemplate. I have been trying to move back to Raleigh permanently, for the weather and to be near the beach again, but every time I've been home this year it's been extremely cold with snow and sleet, so no golf in Carolina this winter. I can't win.

Back to maroger: Shameless marketing hype aside, I guess we all have our preferences and I can respect that. But my preference would be to thin paint with 93 octane no-lead before I give that charlatan at SP any of my money. That old boy has serious issues.

And yes Kjsspot, you can do as the greeks do and chew on mastic instead of Wrigleys Spearmint, but it tastes like crap to me.

Riechart

Leopoldo1
04-11-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by rmichak
before I give that charlatan at SP any of my money. That old boy has serious issues

Now rmichak, that has been my label for many moons now!..........L

David O
04-11-2003, 05:13 PM
So, it doesn't taste like chicken?

Linoxyn
04-11-2003, 05:48 PM
Mediums....why?

One could wonder why oil paint manufacturers don't have this printed on the tubes? - caution! Must be used with a medium. This is not to say that I don't agree with the use of mediums or the many varied choices out there that could aid to make the paint that suits our individual needs.

What artists should always aim at is using paint and that is by most standards a proper ratio of binder to pigment. The binder can be made up as one trusts as fit but the ratio of each individual pigment to it must clearly create what is needed in a paint. I'm sure we all want a paint that is structurally stable, that retains it's colour, and that it brushes out and handles with some workable ease.

Now we humans by nature like things easy so I'm sure most of us who take to using a medium will add it directly to our tube oil paints - no matter how much the manufacturer researched and developed their paint's properties. Should we consider the tube paint's ingredients (fillers, stabilizers) when we are adding a medium to it and it's effects with/on them? Should we not make our own paints that are overly lean to account for the addition of a medium? Should we not be leaching some of the oil out of the tube paints we are using, and to what extent ? The biggest question is - how much is too much medium? Does it get to the point when our paint is no longer a paint? I believe that how far we trust this whole process of using a medium can only depend on our knowledge of good paint making.

Some thoughts to chew on :D

Fredzo
04-12-2003, 12:39 PM
But my preference would be to thin paint with 93 octane no-lead before I give that charlatan at SP any of my money. That old boy has serious issues
Actually, i have heard of people using Gas as a thinner (seems like it was leaded though, maybe the lead helped it dry faster...)

One thing ive always wanted to experiment with as a medium/Thinner is Kerosene... i have no idea what the results would be, exept ive found Kerosene drys much slower than WN Turpentine.

So, it doesn't taste like chicken?
HAHAHA!!! I swear, David-O; your responses always make me laugh uncontrollably!

Verdaccio; I respect what your saying about the mediums you use.

Anyone: Does Lead make the paint film yellow more (like using black oil sparingly as a medium, or mixing lead white with titanium, or zinc whites)??

-Fredzo

sunny
04-12-2003, 07:03 PM
L:..many moons?...conjures up an image..sorry..couldn't resist...:D

Sunny:)

ginatec
04-12-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Fredzo

HAHAHA!!! I swear, David-O; your responses always make me laugh uncontrollably!

Verdaccio; I respect what your saying about the mediums you use.

Anyone: Does Lead make the paint film yellow more (like using black oil sparingly as a medium, or mixing lead white with titanium, or zinc whites)??

-Fredzo

As I said earlier I hardly ever use a thinner...and only then a little turps!

David-O you are a scream!

Fredzo...not sure about the gas...mine runs on unleaded and I have had no yellowing yet...I have always found that kerosene burns much brighter than WN on a cold night.

Someone please tell me what the heck this Maroger is that I keep hearing about.

Verdaccio
04-12-2003, 08:31 PM
Someone please tell me what the heck this Maroger is that I keep hearing about.

Gina: See the first page of this topic.

Leopoldo1
04-12-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by sunny
L:..many moons?...conjures up an image..sorry..couldn't resist...:D

Sunny:)

Isn't that true Sunny!http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2003/1936-spin2[1].gifhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Apr-2003/1936-moon[1].gif

sunny
04-13-2003, 08:29 AM
LOL

JamieWG
04-13-2003, 10:01 AM
Leopoldo, shame on you! Where is the butt icon?

LOL

Jamie

Fredzo
04-13-2003, 12:44 PM
how much is too much medium?
This Question got me thinking. In terms of preservation i suppose its important...

So i thought of going to the extremes; What if you added WAY too much medium? so that only a small fraction is actually pigment? what would happen to the pigment/oil/medium combination after many decades?

And the other extreme; Mixing the dry pigments with very, very little oil/medium, so dry the dry paste has to be applied with a thick peice of steel? What would happen to this?

Assuming the surfaces, and the thickness of both applications are the same, what would happen?

...anyone?.. anyone?.. class?.. anyone?.. bueller?..

-Fredzo

Leopoldo1
04-13-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Fredzo
So i thought of going to the extremes; What if you added WAY too much medium? so that only a small fraction is actually pigment? what would happen to the pigment/oil/medium combination after many decades?

And the other extreme; Mixing the dry pigments with very, very little oil/medium, so dry the dry paste has to be applied with a thick peice of steel? What would happen to this?

First, you would have a pigment starved painting that would look dull (little pigment, mucho vehicle) that would darken easily. We want pigment rich paints, that is why the expensive paints cost so much, like Old Holland for example, pigment rich! If you are going to use medium keep the ratio down!

On the second scenario, if you are going to do that you better go into the stucco house surfacing business, probably in a warm arid environment...........L

Leopoldo1
04-13-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by JamieWG
Leopoldo, shame on you! Where is the butt icon?

LOL

Jamie

J, go here.http://barntroll.com/smileys/

Leopoldo1
04-13-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Leopoldo


First, you would have a pigment starved painting that would look dull (little pigment, mucho vehicle) that would darken easily. We want pigment rich paints, that is why the expensive paints cost so much, like Old Holland for example, pigment rich! If you are going to use medium keep the ratio down!

I drummed up this old painted experimental chart in the corner of my studio that I had made up years ago. Here it shows how medium rich pigments were used when I was exploring flesh tones. The majority of the colors were mixed with maroger. At that time, in all cases, I used way too much medium, probably because I was so thrilled with this buttery, thixotropic, gelling maroger that I got carried away with the proportions. Probably 35/65 or more in ratio. If you notice, it is kind of hard to tell from this image, but the colors have darkened and appear dull and dead. At the time I did it, they looked rich and vibrant! If one needs his or her paints to flow better becomes they have become too short, add a medium (any of the drying oils or resins) but keep them to around 10% or less to pigment ratio...........L

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Apr-2003/1936-darken.jpg

Alie
04-13-2003, 02:29 PM
I like to use galkyd and galkyd lite as my main mediums and sometimes use spectrum's clear oil, depends what i am doing to the painting.
I usually paint in layers of glazes, and the galkyd helps speed things along as well as keep the colors sparkling. I use galkyd lite during the middle of the painting then regular thick galkyd at the end of the painting (OMS and naked paint in the beginning.)
Close up of WIP

Titanium
04-13-2003, 05:19 PM
At that time, in all cases, I used way too much medium, probably because I was so thrilled with this buttery, thixotropic, gelling maroger that I got carried away with the proportions. Probably 35/65 or more in ratio. If you notice, it is kind of hard to tell from this image, but the colors have darkened and appear dull and dead. At the time I did it, they looked rich and vibrant!

WOW Leo,

I am impressed.:clap: :clap: :clap:

Such Honesty.My respect for you went up
another 100%

Most painters won't admit that,and I know
many painters are abusing the use of Maroger
when they say their using it sparingly.

Hats off to you !!!
Khaimraj

Verdaccio
04-13-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Titanium
Most painters won't admit that,and I know
many painters are abusing the use of Maroger
when they say their using it sparingly.

Hats off to you !!!
Khaimraj

T:

Oh yes, I regularly bathe myself, my wife and my animals in Maroger. I water my plants with it, and use it instead of antifreeze in my car. It also makes a great floor wax and a simply delicious dessert topping. :p

Verdaccio
04-13-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Verdaccio


T:

Oh yes, I regularly bathe myself, my wife and my animals in Maroger. I water my plants with it, and use it instead of antifreeze in my car. It also makes a great floor wax and a simply delicious dessert topping*. :P


*PLEASE, PLEASE do NOT eat Marogers or any other oil painting medium. :rolleyes:

Trust me on this...really.

martha gamblin
04-14-2003, 09:11 PM
Hello R. L. Michak: Regarding your comment "...no better than Gamblin's contention that cadmium and lead in oil paint will somehow jump out of the suspension and kill you immediately and force the state to bulldoze your house/studio under and build a concrete dome over the remains."
Your over reaction is humorous but NOT TRUE. Key word: pigment. Lead pigment is obsolete -- hazardous to all life forms. Those who choose to use lead pigment must accept the responsibility for hazardous waste disposal, including paint, pigment and spent solvent. At the Gamblin factory, we choose not to make art materials from lead to protect our health and safety. Also, we don't make garbage, especially hazardous waste. Our choice.
Gamblin chemically pure cadmium pigments are mixed metal oxides. They contain less than six parts per million bio-available cadmium metal. The issue with cadmium pigments is waste disposal and the culprit is plastic toys, not art supplies. Used toys are often incinerated. The cadmium metal is released and goes right to ground water. Best, Martha
[email protected]

JamieWG
04-14-2003, 09:38 PM
Dear Martha,

Thank you for a very interesting and informative reply. I'm definitely going to take some tubes of Gamblin out with me tomorrow that I have not yet tried---including the Cadmium red!

Jamie

Linda Ciallelo
04-14-2003, 10:06 PM
This is an interesting medium recipe to work with.
two parts black oil
two parts unrefined walnut oil
one part oil of spike
(shake well)

Leopoldo1
04-14-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by martha gamblin
Your over reaction is humorous but NOT TRUE. Key word: pigment. Lead pigment is obsolete -- hazardous to all life forms. Those who choose to use lead pigment must accept the responsibility for hazardous waste disposal, including paint, pigment and spent solvent. At the Gamblin factory, we choose not to make art materials from lead to protect our health and safety. Also, we don't make garbage, especially hazardous waste. Our choice.

Oh stop it Gamblin! Here we go again with another marketing ploy from you guys, especially here in Oregon!.

Martha, as much as you try to make the point to buy your products, so we can all believe in a preconceived environmentally futuristic peace of living forever in a lead free state, please let us not get so paranoid to forget about painting with lead, and the benefits of enyoying those qualities in our pigments, that have been laid down from the many masters before hand, and still from the many others today that like the wonderful qualties of lead in their pigments. Lead is everywhere, in your car, in your home, in your drawing pencils, in your hair, in your garden, in your earth, and even to your blood, but please don't eat it, but use it on your canvas where it belongs, so all can see how you over did it!........L

Linda Ciallelo
04-15-2003, 12:04 AM
Lead is good for paint, as long as you don't eat it. It should be safe on the canvas. Just think, by putting it on the canvas, we are getting it out of the environment. It has to be somewhere. If not on your canvas, then where will it be?

cobalt fingers
04-15-2003, 12:18 AM
Kind of as a dare I tried a medium once to talk my great Aunt-long dead these many years-what a waste. It cost me two hundred bucks and was such a rip off.:cat:

Leopoldo1
04-15-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by cobalt fingers
Kind of as a dare I tried a medium once to talk my great Aunt-long dead these many years-what a waste. It cost me two hundred bucks and was such a rip off.:cat:

Maybe you should have gone to her gravesite instead, and used your thoughts and saved the 200 bucks!

Verdaccio
04-15-2003, 12:38 AM
I am sorry but I don't agree with your assessment of lead Mrs. Gamblin. The laws that made lead a nasty word in our country had everything to do with lead-based house and exterior building paint, and nothing to do with artists paints. Artists paints got roped in because law makers did not understand the implication for artists.

You find little Jimmy eating the peeling paint from the walls, not the pictures hanging in the frames. While I am completely for removing lead from house paint, I am completely against removing it from my palette.

I have used many of your products and I enjoy your paints and your varnish. I just don't agree with your marketing spin on lead.

Lead paint such as Flake White can be used in complete safety by any artist with a modicum of common sense. Fortunately, we can still get Flake White from non U.S. paint companies.

"As for me and my house, we will paint with lead."

Leopoldo1
04-15-2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Verdaccio
"As for me and my house, we will paint with lead."

:clap:

penninknoil
04-15-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Verdaccio


I am going to start a new topic to address your Liquin issue as I think people might like to see it and discuss it further.
<p>I am a relatively new beginner painter (in oils and acrylics) who has used liquin in several of my latest oil projects. I noticed fading and darkening to a measurable degree. The more liquin I used the worse the result. HOWEVER, I was also using Georgian oils, which I have since heard are very unstable. Of course, I have since invested in a couple different brands of oils that I will be using soon. <b>And</b>, I'm wondering how much culpability rests with the use of liquin. <p>Any chance you could be persuaded to go ahead and discuss liquin? Or, must we wait for the new thread?

Verdaccio
04-15-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by penninknoil

Any chance you could be persuaded to go ahead and discuss liquin? Or, must we wait for the new thread?

Okie:

To my understanding, Liquin is composed of alkyd resin, oderless mineral spirits, soybean oil, and bentonite clay. No one knows absolutely for sure - super secret ingredients bother me.

The alkyd resin is a mixture of an alcohol and an acid - polyhydric alcohol and a polybasic acid.

The bentonite is a natural clay that keeps the various components from seperating out. The bentonite makes Liquin cloudy.

I don't know about the addition of any driers as the alkyd resin, as I understand it currently, performs that function - however, I have heard others say that the drier in Liquin is Cobalt - dunno for sure.

I have used Liquin in the past and it works OK. I personally liked the Gamblin Galkyd mediums better for how I work.

I have fundamental worries about alkyds in general. Alkyd is a relatively new (about 50 years) actor on the painting scene. It is a very inexpensive material (compared with other materials) and it is my understanding that - as with anything else - it comes in different grades. My knowledge of business in America says that most of the large-scale paint manufacturers use the cheapest base ingredients they can get to increase profit margins.

Cheap base ingredients are reflected in the quality of the end product. I have seen Liquin darken in the bottle. I have seen paintings that were done about 25 years ago with Liquin/Alkyds that appear to be fine. I myself have paintings done with it that are about 10 years old and they too appear fine. I know people who swear by it, and I know people who won't use it again if you paid them. I know people who have seen it delaminate, though I have never seen this myself.

Again, the key with Liquin is - does it work with how you paint? Have you tried alternatives? And again, a medium is only there to get your paint into a workable form - use the medium - any medium - sparingly. My rule of thumb is no more than 20% medium to paint.

Use good quality materials - especially paint.

penninknoil
04-15-2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Verdaccio
...
My rule of thumb is no more than 20% medium to paint.

Use good quality materials - especially paint.
I think you described my mistakes... poor quality paint and too much liquin. I did note that the less liquin I used, the less fading, etc. <p>I am starting a new project tomorrow and plan to use it once again with a higher quality paint. Hopefully my experience will be much better, as I greatly appreciate the shorter drying time that liquin seems to facilitate.<p><b>Thank you</b> so much for your response. Lotsa good explanation and detail. This is turning into a thread I will print out and save for future reference.

Titanium
04-15-2003, 09:01 AM
Michael,

there is no mystery to Liquin.
Any lab can sample the stuff down to it's
components,though not neccessarily the
proportions.

It takes an oil [ drying,altered or non-drying]
added to a man-made resin to give the alkyd.
Or as I call it alkyd oil resin.

So it's - Soybean Oil + man-made resin = Alkyd.
[oil is considered to be the acid.]

The copal resin used to be run[cracked] and
added to a drying oil,say linseed oil.
With problems for obtaining the copal [ quality
stuff] the shift was made to man-made resins.

Soybean Alkyd can take two days to dry naturally
and so to speed it up a surface drier is added.
Cobalt.
Works the same for safflower oil,when cobalt is
is added on.

The problem is that cobalt is a drier that continues
to dry even after the coat is "cured" and will shorten
the life of the binder.
The above is also the definition of a drier.

The thickener can also be organic and at first is
white,later ageing to brown.

You can buy Kremer's Alkyd GG,add on a few drops
of zirconium drier [ a through drier like lead]and
a few drops of cobalt.Thickeners are also available.
Viola,home-made Liquin or possibly Gamblin's stuff.

** Lead as of the early 50's or 60's ,is considered to
be a secondary drier,a through drier,and not progressive
in drying as is cobalt or managanese.

Stand Oil is often added to the Alkyd Oil Resin to increase
flexibility.

Alkyd's for exterior use are flexible,but soft.
Alkyd's for floors are hard.
Less resin or more resin.
Hope that helps.
Titanium

** The use of too much,too rich a coat coat of alkyd
resin will cause delamination,as I expect copal medium
will also do.

Abrasion chemically or physically is needed in the above
case.

Too little pigment,too much medium,nothing to mask the
ageing.

Titanium
04-15-2003, 09:13 AM
Lead Heads Unite !!

Fellahs and Ladies,

Lead will be removed from as much of
public use as is possible.That's a fact.

Stock up on supplies.I have friends who
have xx kilos of lead white put away.
If you believe it to be so safe,mulling it
won't bother you a nit.
I did the same with a particular type of
Titanium White, bought 50 kilos,just in case
the manufacturers decided to "improve it."

As Leslie[..L] said on another line, a fishing
weight added to a drying oil will within a
few weeks add itself onto the oil.You will
get the polymerization......

The problem is in the disposal of the stuff,
lead contaminates all it touches.You don't
want it in the water supply or air or earth
where your growing crops,etc.

There will always be those who prefer Lead
White and there are mega suppplies of Lead
White.Stock up.
Titanium

* Leo- lead pencils - :o ???
As far as I know modern pencils use fired clay
and graphite ????

cobalt fingers
04-15-2003, 10:03 AM
Lead and toxic wastes never killed anybody!









well...oh fine

WFMartin
04-15-2003, 10:07 AM
I use mediums to make my paint flow the way I want it to. Most all paints come out of their tubes at different consistencies, no matter what brand they are, it seems. I use mediums to bring the paint handling to a standard consistency. I favor the linseed oil/ or stand oil/turp combinations.

I've tried the Odorless mineral spirits, and the Liquin approach, but I really favor the tried-and-true linseed oil mediums. I mix a "lean recipe" for beginning layers, a "medium recipe", which has more oil for middle layers, and a "fat recipe" (more oil, yet) for the finishing layers.

Seems to work for me. Oh, and I do add a bit of Damar varnish to each mix of those recipes. I smear a thin coat of medium over the dried underlayer, and then, with a touch of medium in the paint, also, glaze over the dried underlayer.

Bill:)

Verdaccio
04-15-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Titanium

Stock up on supplies.I have friends who
have xx kilos of lead white put away.


T:

You have yet another friend who has some squirreled away a pound or two of lead carbonate for the "just in case" scenario where Europe's law makers do the same as ours have.

Thanks for the additional info on Alkyds. I was really objecting to the fact that many paint makers don't put the ingredients on their products and we are left wondering what is in it. Further, many paint companies are replacing more expensive ingredients with cheap alkyd and not telling us.

Some examples of that are W&N substituting cheap Alkyds in their Copal mediums which actually contain NO copal and yet are still called "Copal Medium" - that is a problem.

If I don't know what's in it, I don't want it in my paint.

Fredzo
04-15-2003, 12:38 PM
Did you mean Grumbacher copal medium (instead of W&N)? I didnt know WN made a so-called copal medium... I know Grumbacher has it (its not really copal, and its supposed to be a secret what it really is).

-Fredzo

JamieWG
04-15-2003, 12:52 PM
Please help me rate this thread so that all this great information will remain readily available in the Hall of Fame! (Click appropriate box below and click "go")

Jamie

Verdaccio
04-15-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Fredzo
Did you mean Grumbacher copal medium (instead of W&N)? I didnt know WN made a so-called copal medium... I know Grumbacher has it (its not really copal, and its supposed to be a secret what it really is).

-Fredzo

Fredzo:

Yes, you are correct Sir, it is Grumbacher, my apologies to W&N. :)

cobalt fingers
04-15-2003, 02:47 PM
Gamvar is the best final varnish I've ever seen.

Dear Bob, if you read this my check has not arrived this month.

David O
04-15-2003, 03:48 PM
How does Gamvar taste?

river
04-15-2003, 04:52 PM
In a post-lead wasteland... couldn't we do it like the old guys did? I heard they got lead plates from somewhere, put them in some clay pots, in the sun, and by some means the lead would precipitate to the bottom. This was called the genuine Cremnitz.

Anyone know this process? Or is it still possible today? Khaimraj?

mirza
04-15-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by river
In a post-lead wasteland... couldn't we do it like the old guys did?

Wasn't there something about a manure pit, too?

OK, riv, you start.

ginatec
04-15-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Verdaccio


Gina: See the first page of this topic.

Thanks Verdaccio...I had read it earlier but because I can't buy these things it never registered!
I am trying to put a rating on this thread by clicking on the Rate thread...lets see if it works!

JamieWG
04-15-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by ginatec

I am trying to put a rating on this thread by clicking on the Rate thread...lets see if it works!

Gina, a certain number of people have to rate a thread before it will show. That's why one cannot do it alone. But of course that being said, your vote must have been the final one and now the rating is showing! :D

Jamie

Titanium
04-15-2003, 05:12 PM
Hello River,

you will find a very thorough explanation of
all the Lead White manufacturing processes
in the book -

Outlines of Paint Technology - Noel Heaton
[3rd edition].

He also has the explanation as to why Lead
White becomes translucent to transparent
with long time.

Apart from the slickness that one gets from
blending lead white with titanium dioxide,
about 5% Lead White added to 95% Ti02,
will give a paint that has most of the beneficial
chemical qualities of Lead White.

Save for UV protection,but because Lead White
nullifies the problems of Zinc Oxide you can
also mix in 15% Zinc Oxide.[Zinc Oxide for some
UV protection]

So you would have a white that is say,
5% Lead White,15% Zinc Oxide and 80% Ti02.
[Stretching the Lead White for the budget minded.]

I don't really suggest you try making Lead White
off of lead weights [ car tires] or battery poles.
You might pick up a lot of impurities in the lead.

Just stock up like Michael did.:clap:

Lastly please note that Lead Oxide and Titanium
Dioxide melted together is a yellow compund.
So you don't want that either.Just a bit of Enamel
tech. there.
Titanium [ K]

Titanium
04-15-2003, 05:23 PM
Michael,

copal is fairly easy to run[crack],though
amber is still easier.

If you searched you could find quality
copal.Paul sent me some and Rob sent
me some.

I also found out that the West Indian
Copal tree is also a premium grade
producer.So as favour to another copal
maker,who is also trying to grow his
own trees up near you [ Colorado ] I have
planted a few copal trees.

In a few years we are hoping they will produce
resin for tapping and then he will see if a
quality product can be supplied.

Though I don't believe in copal or amber mediums,
I see no point to denying others a chance to
use the stuff.

I am supplying whatever I tap for free.I have
the land and the tree is quite beautiful as a
mature specimen.Plus Mum eats the fruit,
called locally - Stinkin toe .I don't know how she
does it.It must be an acquired English habit .
YUCCK [ insert uggh face here.]
Titanium

* It is also considered a furniture grade wood
and the tree is rare today because of that.Sad.

Verdaccio
04-15-2003, 05:25 PM
Another way, and again, you would have to be really despirate to do this, but it is helpful to know just in case.

If you go to a gun store that has supplies for reloading, you can buy bars or blocks of lead. If you were to take a bar of lead and suspend it over a solution of vinegar (3-6 inches above it), the bottom and sides of the lead would develop a whitish powder substance as the vinegar vapor ate into the lead. If you periodically scrape this white powder off with the edge of a knife and save it into a jar, you have lead that is suitable to grind into paint.

Again, when you can buy lead carbonate from any chem supply house and most art stores, it makes more sense just to stock up, but the info knocks about my brain and calls to be let out from time to time.

When the post begins with: "If you go to a gun store..." you know you are going to get some whacky info! :D

Verdaccio
04-15-2003, 05:27 PM
T:

If you ever get any Copal from your tree, I would love some and would gladly reimburse your postage to get it to me. :)

river
04-15-2003, 05:48 PM
Thanks guys... all of this is *extremely* just in case scenario sort of stuff. Kind of like Norad... I would feel pathetic scraping lead powder off of lead bars but... well let's just hope it doesn't come to that :( Those are pure lead bars, Michael?

Will check out that book, Titanium, also going to save this.

Verdaccio
04-15-2003, 06:02 PM
River:

Yea, they are solid lead. Reloaders melt them down and make bullets from them. You would have to scrape and then resuspend the lead bar - come back in a few weeks and scrape it again. If anyone ever decides to try this, do it in your garage or out of doors for sure - not inside.

Titanium
04-16-2003, 06:46 AM
Michael and River[J],

Michael,no problem.

River, be sure you get lead shot and
not the new replacement stuff - Bismuth shot.

Bismuth will also work on the drying oil,but
will give a different reaction.There used to be
a replacement Lead White in the late 1890's
to early 1900's using Bismuth White.Very
reactive stuff,turns black/dark faster than lead.

Just a bit of trivia there.

Often the use of medium is to counter the effects
of manganese in umber and sienna.The matt effect
on drying.Throws the eye off.Or the over manipulation
of paint,or just too many applied layers.

Oil paint works best at 1 to 2 layers,the fewer the
better.I have seen the use of 5 layers as well.
Titanium.

Linda Ciallelo
04-16-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Verdaccio
Another way, and again, you would have to be really despirate to do this, but it is helpful to know just in case.

If you go to a gun store that has supplies for reloading, you can buy bars or blocks of lead. If you were to take a bar of lead and suspend it over a solution of vinegar (3-6 inches above it), the bottom and sides of the lead would develop a whitish powder substance as the vinegar vapor ate into the lead. If you periodically scrape this white powder off with the edge of a knife and save it into a jar, you have lead that is suitable to grind into paint.

Again, when you can buy lead carbonate from any chem supply house and most art stores, it makes more sense just to stock up, but the info knocks about my brain and calls to be let out from time to time.

When the post begins with: "If you go to a gun store..." you know you are going to get some whacky info! :D

That's very interesting Michael. I always feel more secure when I know how to make the things that are most important to me, like penicillin, and lead. They will probably ban lead paint long before they ban guns, so it's good thing to know.

Paintonbrush
04-16-2003, 11:30 AM
Wow, just read through all posts.....you guys are a WILD bunch.....
;-)
I use
1/3 varnish
1/3 turp
1/3 stand
few drops japan drier (very few)
and love it

David O
04-16-2003, 11:35 AM
When they ban guns, you'll have to come down here to Texas for your lead, because we will have seceeded from the union. Some things are worth fighting for.

Leopoldo1
04-16-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by David O
When they ban guns, you'll have to come down here to Texas for your lead, because we will have seceeded from the union. Some things are worth fighting for.

Isn't that true!..........L

Leopoldo1
04-16-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Titanium
* Leo- lead pencils - :o ???
As far as I know modern pencils use fired clay
and graphite ????

T, did I really say that? http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Apr-2003/1936-banghead.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Apr-2003/1936-bash.gif

Pilan
04-17-2003, 02:05 AM
Martha your the person I wanted to ask about the meglip your company sells. It was back ordered and have to wait for it. Anyhow, what is the best way to use meglip. I tend to want to try anything and everything. I dont remember if thats the way you spell it so forgive me if its incorrect.


Pilan

Originally posted by martha gamblin
Hello R. L. Michak: Regarding your comment "...no better than Gamblin's contention that cadmium and lead in oil paint will somehow jump out of the suspension and kill you immediately and force the state to bulldoze your house/studio under and build a concrete dome over the remains."
Your over reaction is humorous but NOT TRUE. Key word: pigment. Lead pigment is obsolete -- hazardous to all life forms. Those who choose to use lead pigment must accept the responsibility for hazardous waste disposal, including paint, pigment and spent solvent. At the Gamblin factory, we choose not to make art materials from lead to protect our health and safety. Also, we don't make garbage, especially hazardous waste. Our choice.
Gamblin chemically pure cadmium pigments are mixed metal oxides. They contain less than six parts per million bio-available cadmium metal. The issue with cadmium pigments is waste disposal and the culprit is plastic toys, not art supplies. Used toys are often incinerated. The cadmium metal is released and goes right to ground water. Best, Martha
[email protected]

martha gamblin
04-18-2003, 04:15 PM
Hello again. fellow Oregonian and others, you keep confusing my issue with your issue. You can choose to use lead based paints. We are not holding you back. All we are doing is bringing to your attention why we don't use lead pigments. They are hazardous to paintmakers. Working with lead pigments in a small shop is not healthy for the 12 artisans working directly with mixing and milling and with the other 6 who are packing and shipping in the same warehouse. You seem to think the painters of the past had a choice. Lead pigment was the only white powder that made a decent oil color. When Titanium White was introduced to painters in 1920, most painters immediately switch to a brighter, more opaque white that is not toxic. There is no magic in the materials. (If you want a quality check for how much lead is really in those paints, email me.) Best, Martha
[email protected]

kjsspot
04-18-2003, 04:35 PM
Martha, the saftey of your workers is a very valid point. Thank you for bringing that up!

martha gamblin
04-18-2003, 05:09 PM
Hello Pilan: Sorry I hit the send button before I saw your question. Neo Megilp is a soft, silky gel medium. We first saw Megilp at the Tate Gallery in London. A conservation scientist gave us a sample and Bob started to play with it. Megilp was Turner's favorite medium that he used as a top coat glaze. Like its ancestor, Neo Megilp can create dimensional glazes. Unfortunately many of top layers on Turner's paintings have been sanded off because of the darkening but at the Tate you can still see paintings that have had less aggressive conservation. Three dimensional atmospheric glazes ... nice technique. More info at:

http://www.gamblincolors.com/mediums/medgel.html

Best, Martha
[email protected]