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kaleb
01-08-2012, 12:46 PM
Hey guys, this is just kind of a recap of my thread that was deleted.
I'm Kaleb, I'm 20, I like comic books and painting things. :lol:
Basically, I like the way vinyl paint looks and the idea of painting on acetate but I'm not sure it'll give me enough room to experiment. What specifically appeals to me about vinyl paint is the super saturated colors, the opacity, the ability to layer without lifting and of course the flat even finish with no bristle marks. I want the crisp SHAPE of my brush strokes, just not the individual bristle marks.

My only gripe is I like to experiment as well and vinyl paint seems like sort of a one trick pony, could I mess around with adding acrylic mediums and additives to it for different looks? And I can't really wrap my head around mixing colours without any pigment info at all. How accurately can you mix vinyl paints? It would be nice if I could play around with using conventional acrylics to tint the vinyls and vice versa, does anyone here do that? Should I be looking at something a little more versatile like Acryla Gouache or Golden Fluid Matte acrylics or am I going to be compromising some of the features essential to me from vinyl paint? Man, I wish Absolute Matte was still around!

There's shockingly little info on using vinyl paints this way out there and any help any of you guys could give me would be very much appreciated, thanks!

Raymo
01-08-2012, 01:20 PM
When you say vinyl paint do you mean like spray paint in a can ?

kortduce
01-08-2012, 02:35 PM
Acrylic paint is plastic too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylic_resin

Acrylic paints are very versatile too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylic_paint

One can use acrylic as a watercolor medium, retard it and use it like oils, use thick acrylic and acrylic binders for texture or spray it with an air brush.

paznbaz
01-08-2012, 05:15 PM
I've been using Acrylic Signwriter's paint for 45yrs for pictorials and it works fine just fades in the sunlight after a period.


Paul

BeeCeeEss
01-08-2012, 08:06 PM
Are you talking about house paints or artists' paints such as the Maimeri Polycolor acrylics that are vinyl-based and used by animation artists (among others) to paint on transparent film? They are also excellent for outdoor murals and just about any other type of painting you would use regular acrylics for and on the same variety of surfaces. I have personally used these Polycolor paints and can attest to their super opaque coverage, brilliant color and superior handling qualities. They dry to a velvet matte finish and offer a bit more blending time than typical acrylic paints. Because of their superior covering power, they go a lot further than typical acrylic paints. Their only downside, in my experience, is that they have quite a noticeable value shift from wet to dry. They are durable and flexible and are now offered in tubes instead of the large glass jars that were the only option some years ago.

If you are interested, here is a link to some product info on Dick Blick's site:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/maimeri-polycolor-fine-acrylics/

Beverly

kaleb
01-08-2012, 09:33 PM
Yeah, sorry guys, I should have been more specific; I was just trying to recap the deleted thread as fast as I could. Yeah I'm talking about vinyl-based acrylic paints that were used for animation on sheets of acetate like Cel-Vinyl, Polycolor and Flashe. Not that I always paint on acetate, it just seems fun to mess around with. I'm glad to hear good things about the Polycolors though, I wanted to try them the most because of the pigment info but I've only been able to find people using them on their nails.

kaleb
01-09-2012, 02:44 PM
Basically a paint that can do this sort of thing (just in terms of how the colors lay out on top of each other):http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jan-2012/981004-FRANCAVILLA
I've read that the Polycolors (and Cel-vinyl) have problems with the pigment separating from the binder after a while. Is this a common problem with all vinyl-based acrylics?

WaltWally
01-09-2012, 06:10 PM
I've read that the Polycolors (and Cel-vinyl) have problems with the pigment separating from the binder after a while. Is this a common problem with all vinyl-based acrylics?I haven't done cartoon animation in something like fifty years (!!) so my experience with Cel-vinyl paints might not be relevant to their current formulations, but I do remember having to stir the paint in the jars to correct the separation. But I don't recall any difficulties once the paint was applied and dried.

Never had any experience with the tube version of the paints.

But I fondly remember those delicious colors and how totally opaque they were on acetate*. In fact, the process of filling in the colors on the animated characters was called 'opaquing'-- because you could not have the background showing through the characters!

*We called those acetate sheets 'cels' because they were originally celluloid sheets.

kaleb
01-09-2012, 07:38 PM
Awesome! Call me insane but cartoon animation on 'cels' actually sounds like a blast. It sounds like viny-based acrylics in a tube is a horrible idea though, which is a shame because that's really the only way I can get them. Have you ever come across another way of getting the same look with different paints? I'm thinking of trying out Winsor and Netwon flow improver on their artist acrylics to see if I can get the same effect. Bad idea? What about Holbein Acryla Gouache?

BeeCeeEss
01-09-2012, 08:13 PM
Awesome! Call me insane but cartoon animation on 'cels' actually sounds like a blast. It sounds like viny-based acrylics in a tube is a horrible idea though, which is a shame because that's really the only way I can get them.

I don't know why it would be. You could give the tube a "massage" just before squeezing some of it out to redistribute the paint and binder, if that has become a problem. It would take quite some time for this separation to occur, however. If you are using the paints on a fairly frequent basis, this should not happen. I don't recall any of my Maimeri Polycolor paints separating this way. If anything, they would gradually become a bit thick if I wasn't using up a particular color quickly enough. But I solved this easily by stirring in some distilled water to thin it out a bit. I still have some of my Polycolor paints in the original glass jars and they are not separated at all. They may be too thick to use any longer because I haven't used them in many years, but they have not separated. The paintings I did with them (mostly on watercolor paper) are all fine and beautifully colorful as the day they were first completed.

These paints are still available in the glass jars (at least through Blick's) but the smaller tubes are something new and, I think, an improvement.


Have you ever come across another way of getting the same look with different paints? I'm thinking of trying out Winsor and Netwon flow improver on their artist acrylics to see if I can get the same effect. Bad idea?

The flow improver will not help with this as far as making the paint dry very opaque and matte. It just makes the paint come off the brush more easily.

What about Holbein Acryla Gouache?

It is a sort of hybrid acrylic-gouache paint that dries to a velvety matte finish and resists lifting or re-wetting once it is completely dry. However, I don't believe it has quite as much opacity and/or covering power as the true polycolor type acrylics. It is also a bit more delicate than traditional acrylics. Its surface can be scratched and damaged more easily, although it is not as delicate as true gouache. Its working characteristics are more like true acrylics with rapid drying and very limited blending time. It also comes in small tubes and they are pricey.

Jo Sonja has a line of so-called gouache but it is really just another acrylic paint with matting agents added (in my opinion). It is nowhere near as opaque as real gouache or even better grades of real acrylics. I think you would be very disappointed with it if you tried to use it for the purpose of painting on cells.

Beverly

kaleb
01-09-2012, 09:43 PM
I don't know why it would be. You could give the tube a "massage" just before squeezing some of it out to redistribute the paint and binder, if that has become a problem. It would take quite some time for this separation to occur, however. If you are using the paints on a fairly frequent basis, this should not happen. I don't recall any of my Maimeri Polycolor paints separating this way. If anything, they would gradually become a bit thick if I wasn't using up a particular color quickly enough. But I solved this easily by stirring in some distilled water to thin it out a bit. I still have some of my Polycolor paints in the original glass jars and they are not separated at all. They may be too thick to use any longer because I haven't used them in many years, but they have not separated. The paintings I did with them (mostly on watercolor paper) are all fine and beautifully colorful as the day they were first completed.

These paints are still available in the glass jars (at least through Blick's) but the smaller tubes are something new and, I think, an improvement.




The flow improver will not help with this as far as making the paint dry very opaque and matte. It just makes the paint come off the brush more easily.



It is a sort of hybrid acrylic-gouache paint that dries to a velvety matte finish and resists lifting or re-wetting once it is completely dry. However, I don't believe it has quite as much opacity and/or covering power as the true polycolor type acrylics. It is also a bit more delicate than traditional acrylics. Its surface can be scratched and damaged more easily, although it is not as delicate as true gouache. Its working characteristics are more like true acrylics with rapid drying and very limited blending time. It also comes in small tubes and they are pricey.

Jo Sonja has a line of so-called gouache but it is really just another acrylic paint with matting agents added (in my opinion). It is nowhere near as opaque as real gouache or even better grades of real acrylics. I think you would be very disappointed with it if you tried to use it for the purpose of painting on cells.

Beverly

:clap:Thank you so much Beverly! It's been such a pain finding anything on Polycolors! You've definitely saved me a bunch of money. I was THIS CLOSE to spending a ton on Acryla Gouache and a couple Jo Sonja colours because I couldn't find a more in-depth comparison of their opaqueness compared to vinyl-based colors and they seemed to be described as exactly what I wanted. Now, It's time for some shopping, man I love making a big fat order of art supplies once in a while :evil:

Again thanks to everyone for the help, I know I'm bad at describing what I want, but somehow I got exactly what I needed. You should see me talking to the employees at Michaels (where one of them once asked me if "cadmium" was a brand)! :smug:

kaleb
01-09-2012, 11:06 PM
Just one more question though: (and, sorry about the double post, I haven't figured out how to edit my posts) How well do these paints mix with more traditional artist acrylics?

BeeCeeEss
01-10-2012, 01:30 PM
Just one more question though: (and, sorry about the double post, I haven't figured out how to edit my posts) How well do these paints mix with more traditional artist acrylics?

If you mean the Polycolors mixing with traditional acrylics, I couldn't say. When I was using the Maimeri Polycolor paints, I used them exclusively and thinned only with water. I never tried mixing them with other acrylics. You might want to see if Maimeri has a web site with more information. If they offer a contact link, you can ask them this question directly. I'd go with their recommendations.

[ADDITIONAL NOTE: the Polycolors are both acrylic and vinyl; they are called a copolymer. This may mean that you can mix them with traditional acrylics, but I would test this on something unimportant first. You would also risk losing the characteristics of the Polycolors that make them special, i.e., the matte finish and working qualities.]

Also, the company literature says they were formulated to be very flexible, durable and to bond very strongly (a stronger bond than traditional acrylics). They are made for outdoor murals, working on flexible surfaces like leather or fabrics. They are great for crafts (although this does not mean they are the same as typical "craft paints"). I see no reason that they could not be used in fine art applications. No acrylic paint that I have ever used (and I've used many) can match the opacity and covering power of the Polycolors.

You have gotten me interested in these paints again. The reason I liked them so much when I was using them was that they actually did offer a bit of blending time that conventional acrylics don't. They also flow more smoothly off the brush when you are trying to do fine detail. And, of course, there is the great covering power.

The cons were that there is a big value shift from wet to dry paint. That got me into the habit of pre-mixing the colors I would be using often and might need to get back to. That is a habit I still practice today with regular acrylics, so it was sort of a good thing there. The other con was that they were only available in glass jars that held a lot of paint. It was too much for me to use up most of the time and replacing them was costly. Now that they are available in tubes, I might get one of their starter packs and try them again.

Beverly

BeeCeeEss
01-11-2012, 08:15 PM
Ah, I see this is one of the threads to suffer some "missing stuff" due to the recent upgrade of the database.

I just wanted to add a word of caution to kaleb to maybe go slow and start small with these Polycolor paints. I know I like to buy new art supplies as much as the next person. It's been at least 10 years since I used to use these paints on a regular basis. I read a complaint about them from one person who said they were separating in the tubes after sitting idle for a time. Although this never happened to me, it's possible that the company has changed the formulation of these paints in recent years and they may not be exactly the same as the ones I used to use.

So, a word to the wise, start with a few colors and see how they perform before committing a lot of money.

Beverly