Vermilion Test

[gunzorro]

Taking up Jim T (Termini) on his suggestion to do a test with various vermilions and amber.

Here's the first stage, the layout. Each paint is pulled down in a line using a palette knife, with a drop of 25% amber varnish at the bottom (before mixing into this bottom area of the paint line).

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8623web.jpg

The paints used are Blockx and Harding genuine vermilion on the left, which look virtually identical, although the Harding is using linseed and the Blockx is using poppy (as far as I know).

The middle is the Studio Products, followed to the right by Doak and Blue Ridge. These three look vitually identical -- we know the Blue Ridge pigment comes from Doak, and we know Doak is now supplied by Studio Products for mixing paints. The question then begs: are these three samples all the same pigment, and if so, is it genuine vermilion? We won't have an answer to that question unless someone can furnish chemical analysis. (any offers?)

The top section of these lines will remain the paint as it came from the tube with the uppermost section covered from light, and the next section exposed. The middle area will have a thinned coating of amber varnish, and possibly a second (or third) of different varnish like Soluvar.

I'll present lightfastness results in 3 to 6 months.

As of now, the test is set up to dry for a few weeks before the varnish coats.

[Termini.]

Wow Jim,

Thanks for this undertaking! This is very interesting!:thumbsup:

[Brian Firth]

Looks good Jim. I can say that I tested Natural Pigments genuine vermilion with a coat of Soluvar and it didn't protect it from darkening at all.

Also, Blue Ridge does not get their vermilion pigment from Doak, they used too, but no longer get anything from Doak. So, unless your Blue Ridge vermilion is an old batch, then it is definitely a cadmium mix which they admit to using now.

My money is on all three on the right being cadmium. One easy test is to smell the wet paints for the tell-tell metallic smell of selenium that is characteristic of cadmium red paints. Genuine vermilion doesn't have that smell, but all my cadmium reds do and so does the RGH, Blue Ridge (old version with Doak pigment) and Doak vermilion, leading me to a pretty confident assessment of them all being cadmium. Of course if they darken, then we know they're real! :P

Look forward to the results.

[Einion]

Thanks for going to the trouble of doing this Jim http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif

Will look forward to the results, but I'll make a small wager now that the varnish won't prevent the problem.

Einion

[ly]

Hi Jim
Why not to add Vasari's Cadmium-Vermilion to your test.
ly

[gunzorro]

ly -- What a great idea!! I think there might just be enough room on an edge to add the Vasari. I'll try to get to that.

[Oriane]

I'd love to see the Holbein vermilion added as well.

[rltromble]

Jim, I just have to say the cost of this test makes me cringe a little. :( But I will be interested to see how the test plays out. But do you really see an advantage of using vermilion over cad red light?

[wetbob]

SP looks very chromatic, may be handy

[Termini.]

CoSP looks very chromatic, may be handy

Yes, it does look very chromatic. I have been eyeing the Studio Products Vermilion for quite some time. Actual vermilion is not interchangeable with cadmium red light, or any cadmium red. Most people who try both paints, will quickly understand the difference. That is not to say that cadmium red is a bad color. Not at all, and in fact cadmium red is a marvelous color, but it is not the same tool in the tool box. Cadmium reds are great in mixes, but better when white is not mixed with it, as it tends to go pink. Actual vermilion doesn't lose as much chroma as its value increases. To see the difference in its use, simply go to the museum, and look at any number of old master produced portraits. Look in the cheeks, and then look at some modern portraits employing the use of cadmium red. The color is much different. Vermilion although high in chroma appears to have a more earth color appearance, at least in my opinion. I would add that it is well documented that vermilion was successfully used centuries ago. The trip to the museum as I mentioned above, is all the proof that is necessary. If all applications of this paint resulted in blackening, we would see thousands of portraits, in museums all over the world, that looked like someone rubbed coal on the cheeks of the sitters, as that sat having their portraits painted, centuries ago. This simply isn't the case.

I hope that the lightfast tests show that this product can be used successfully. Considering that every tool in the painters tool box helps, I don't understand how I could think otherwise.

[alhajri]

I tend to like the Blockx version Jim. Thanks for this test. It came at the right time. Because I'm shopping around for Vermillion. I currently have it in Rembrandt. But I'm betting that Blockx will surpass the others.

I'm considering Old Holland. But will wait for your advice.
Is Vermillion doomed to darken no matter what brand or medium used?
And how long does it take for it to show that?

Kal

[Einion]

Most people who try both paints, will quickly understand the difference.
There is indeed a difference, as there is between nearly any two different pigments of similar masstone colour - this can even be appreciated quite well in digital photos. But even individual examples of Cad Red can vary a surprising amount and some are a great deal closer in mixing character to Vermilion than others (e.g. being more chromatic in tint as well as having a similar change in hue from the masstone). Comparisons have been posted here on WC that show this quite well.

Cadmium reds are great in mixes, but better when white is not mixed with it, as it tends to go pink.
:confused: Tints of Cad Red do vary but more commonly than not they don't go pink in tint if I understand what you mean by pink here. And besides, isn't this one of the very characteristics that the tints of Vermilion are prized for?
Light cadmium red is said to replace the hue of vermilion or cinnabar, but tints of vermilion or cinnabar are pink, and hence highly prized by the Old Masters, then are tints of cadmium red, which are orange-red.

...

Termini makes a point above about Vermilion not being interchangeable with Cad Red Light and much the same could be said about any two pigments of roughly the same colour - their individual characteristics makes each one unique (some more so than others) and therefore one can't be switched in for the other... only in practice the painter can do this, and often with relative ease.

What matters at the end of the day is not what each individual paint can do but what the palette as a whole can achieve. Once we get down to practical usage how a single pigment works in less critical than the finished colours that are needed in the painting - and there are many different routes to many of the same colours, using both direct and indirect means.

This is why Alizarin Crimson for example can be replaced by painters looking for an alternative that's more lightfast. Now some of the alternatives are closeish so an easy swap-out but some are a very different colour, but if done right this switch is accomplished without any change being apparent in their work.

Back to the colour at hand, Vermilion/Cinnabar is often used in master works in major collections that have undergone repair or retouching and this is more proof of the general principle, if it were needed: as these are now generally done using another red (a Cad Red often) and those retouchings can be impossible to detect, even when you know where they are.

With regard to historical use, we need to bear in mind that the paints used historically could be quite different from what's commonly available today. Plus their methods might not be the same, and the other palette constituents are very rarely the same as used in the present day; all of these things could and would affect things. It is undeniably true that Vermilion has held up well overall over the centuries but quite apart from earlier examples being mostly Cinnabar - and not the synthesised Vermilion - there is more than one way of making the pigment and in addition to other differences it is argued that it results in varied ageing characteristics as well.

Personally I think while permanence questions are important (because of the many failures shown in commercial Vermilion paints of current vintage) what's most at issue is whether there's enough of a difference to justify the cost. And since it can be substituted for without anything being lacking I think this makes the decision very easy indeed.

There are a couple of threads from a few years ago on making a "synthetic Vermilion" if anyone wants to more closely match the tints of Vermilion with a Cad Red whose tints are duller than you'd like. It's really very simple.

Einion

[lcg]

Cornell's library has a pdf on Vermilion. >>
www.library.cornell.edu/preservation/paper/2PigAtlasEastern1.pdf
from that...

Technical Examination Techniques/ Instrumental Analysis Techniques
Particles are anisotropic and appear to turn darker with pleochroism. Particles exhibit birefringence and some crystals exhibit characteristic undulose extinction. With the red compensator in the microscope they appear colours other than red and their polarisation colours are bright orange to red/brown depending upon their manufacture. Semi-transparent under infra-red, yellow-brown in false colour and purple-blue under UV light. When heated it sublimes at about 580oC and at higher temperatures it burns with a bluish flame. Insoluble in alkalis.

...heating then may be a quicker and surer way to test for purity?

I hope this helps.

[dcorc]

Before heating vermilion, you may care to consider that both vermilion and cadmium when heated to a point of burning will give off toxic vapours

Instead of playing "home chemist" it would be more appropriate to submit material for analysis to a competent independent commercial or university chemistry laboratory.

Dave

[Brian Firth]

Is Vermillion doomed to darken no matter what brand or medium used?
And how long does it take for it to show that?

Kal


Apparently yes. Every CONFIRMED GENUINE vermilion tested and posted here on Wetcanvas has darkened after about 1-2 months exposure to sunlight, some faster some slower, but all darkened. Tints darkened faster. This was not alleviated by a coating of Soluvar varnish in my tests. The paints that have darkened and been documented here on WC are: all three versions from Holbein, Blockx, Michael Harding and Natural Pigments Rublev.

I am 99.9% sure that Doak and RGH are cadmium pigments, as they have a very distinct selenium odor that only cadmium red/orange pigments have. Also, they can be easily matched with a blend of cad red and cad orange. Blue Ridge no longer uses Doak's "vermilion" pigment because he discovered the same thing, it can be perfectly matched with a cad blend, and came to the same conclusion. Remember, he trained with Doak.

Lastly, the real vermilion pigments I have used are generally duller than their cadmium counterparts in both masstone and tints (all three Holbein, Natural Pigments and Michael Harding) , so I don't know what kind of vermilion Termini has used, but it makes me suspicious of the pigment's authenticity.

[Termini.]

There is indeed a difference

Yes, and the more that one studies paintings with vermilion in them, the more one will see it, in many cases. The more one works with it, the more apparent the difference is, in many cases.

Cadmiums are excellent colors, but they simply do not permit the same effects. Vermilion is an expensive color, but so are colors such as natural rose madder. Some people just have to have that color as well, some can use other substitutes.

Some folks will look at a cerulean blue hue (made of several blues biased in opposite directions, and a white), and swear that the color is unmistakable from the actual clean cerulean blue. Others can look at the two colors, and immediately tell the difference. Same thing with almost any color and its hue.

[gunzorro]

Wow! Great stuff posted!

Kal -- First off, I think you'll find your Rembrandt is not genuine vermilion. Blick lists it as P073 -- Pyrol Orange (or Pyrol Vermilion). http://www.dickblick.com/items/00417-3283/#colorpigments

Regarding Vermilion v. Cad Red Light (or Cad Red Vermilion) -- it depends! Most people will, without any prejudice or amatuerishness, be quite happy making the needed tints with Cad Red instead of Vermilion. But as Einion says (and yes, see the related threads that we've had on this in the Color Theory forum), it is a matter of need, cost and discriminating taste" as to how important it is to own genuine Vermilion. For me, obviously, it is of importance, to a power of about 8. ;)

Regarding darkening -- As Brian has noted, there are quite a number of current genuine Vermilions that darken on exposure to bright light. Otherwise, we are confronted with historical fact (pre-cadmiums) that vermilion/cinnabar has remained vibrant and glowing. We are also confronted with several samples here of current production that presumably do not fade in lightfastness tests, so we'll wait and see the results in a few months. If they do not fade after exposure, the next step would be chemical analysis of the samples to find their exact composition. (If anyone knows where we can get this done gratis, or will pay the bill, I'll ship the sample canvas when exposure test is finished.)

I did add Vasari today, over on the end past the Blue Ridge on the right side.

I have previously tested the Holbein (as has Brian) and I can post the result here:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8893web.jpg

[karenlee]

Once again, thank you Gunzorro! There is an obvious chroma difference there...
Now: does anyone want to buy an unused tube of Doak genuinely fake vermilion?
-Karen

[lcg]

Karen, I don't think without a chemical analysis, we can conclude that Doak's vermilion is fake. As Jim just noted...
...we are confronted with historical fact (pre-cadmiums) that vermilion/cinnabar has remained vibrant and glowing. We are also confronted with several samples here of current production that presumably do not fade in lightfastness tests, so we'll wait and see the results in a few months. If they do not fade after exposure, the next step would be chemical analysis of the samples to find their exact composition.

[dcorc]

Karen, I don't think without a chemical analysis, we can conclude that Doak's vermilion is fake.

Agreed.

Though it does illustrate why there is a place for declaration of pigment numbers, (e.g. vermilion PR106) or simply of the chemical nature of the pigment vermilion, mercuric sulphide HgS - as although these don't tell us either the exact colour, or the quality of the material, at least open declaration by manufacturers would remove any lingering doubt anyone might have as to whether "vermilion" means vermilion, or cadmium red (or indeed something else).

[Termini.]

as to how important it is to own genuine Vermilion. For me, obviously, it is of importance, to a power of about 8. ;)


I am interested in the level of importance that you have assigned to this color. Could you elaborate? Certainly there are subtle differences that you have noted, and require for your work. For lack of a better way of asking, what does vermilion do for you, that you cannot obtain using a cadmium red?

As a side note, I want to mention that I do love cadmium red, and just recently bought several tubes of old Permanent Pigments Cadmium red. Wow! They are awesome, they almost illuminate the room, when you take the cap off. I am no cadmium hater:D

[Termini.]

Kal -- First off, I think you'll find your Rembrandt is not genuine vermilion. Blick lists it as P073 -- Pyrol Orange (or Pyrol Vermilion).


I don't use much Rembrandt, but the permanent red, permanent red medium, and permanent red light are awesome colors, for the price.

[Termini.]

Once again, thank you Gunzorro! There is an obvious chroma difference there...
Now: does anyone want to buy an unused tube of Doak genuinely fake vermilion?
-Karen
Karen,

No, don't get rid of that. I'd bet that when you bought it, and looked at it, and used it if you have, you were happy with the purchase. Well, you should be, because it is good paint, and highly useful!

I have known a couple of folks who did some reading on art forums, and were almost devastated with the materials they had purchased. If you or anyone else wants to try something new, use up what you have first, and then get something else. Make the full use of the things that you have. Don't feel bad about them. Perhaps you were kidding, as it is difficult to assess this in cyberspace, but if you were please disregard what I have said. I will say it nevertheless, for anyone who happens by this thread and is feeling bad about their bottle of alkyd, or tube of phthalo green, because of something they have read.

[Termini.]

the next step would be chemical analysis of the samples to find their exact composition. (If anyone knows where we can get this done gratis, or will pay the bill, I'll ship the sample canvas when exposure test is finished.)


I wonder if one of those home test kits for mercury would suffice. I think that they sell them at some pharmacies, and home remodeling stores. Probably would only give a general reading, but confirmation, nonetheless.

[gunzorro]

Karenlee -- We might have suspicions, due to the different characterstics in the lightfastness tests and the resemblance to behavior of other similar colors (cadmiums and pyrols). But without accurate testing, that's all it is: suspicion.

Even if the Doak/BR/SP turned out to not be genuine (and again, I'm NOT saying this is the case), these are all three outstanding paints -- really top notch. I wouldn't get rid of any of these regardless of chemical result.

Termini -- I simply was referring to the fact that I've been on a hunt for "perfect vermilion" long enough that I've accumulated a ton of different brands and pigment types. I've only gotten rid of the Holbeins, of which I had all three (actually three complete sets of three!). I love the vermilions, especially the Doak/SP/BR, and keep them handy.

And no surprise (and no apology needed!) that you like those Rembrandt Permanent Reds -- the Light is Pyrol Scarlet PR255 + Pyrol Orange PO73 the Medium is PR255 and the Deep is Pyrol Red PR254. These are all expensive and beautiful modern pigments of superior tinting strength and lightfastness! :)

Dave -- I agree! The pigment numbers, when backed up by authentication, are the best guarantee we have of the pigments.

[sidbledsoe]

the Medium is PR255 and PR254.
they have home test kits for heavy metals that I think should be safe: http://www.heavymetalstest.com/
if really want to verify this, I would check with them and ask if the test is able to deal with it being in an oil base, ie does it need to be solubilized in water for the test to be accurate.
Having obtained one product that I later found to be phony material, I can say that it happens.

[sidbledsoe]

These tests are for human body fluids, looking at the info on the mercury test, it detects very low levels so a paint sample could need to be diluted, if that interested I would call them first. There are others kits and may be more suitable for high levels, http://www.bgiusa.com/ihi/mercury.htm
Termini, I have about 1/3 tube of Perm Pig's Cad Red Lt, will be sad when it is gone:( , to me it is so vermilliony
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Feb-2010/112587-rsz_112587-tubes.jpg
Nice test Jim, what a colorman:thumbsup:

[Termini.]

Termini -- I simply was referring to the fact that I've been on a hunt for "perfect vermilion" long enough that I've accumulated a ton of different brands and pigment types. I've only gotten rid of the Holbeins, of which I had all three (actually three complete sets of three!). I love the vermilions, especially the Doak/SP/BR, and keep them handy.

Oh Jim, I wasn't trying to be contentious. I am further intrigued by your search for a good vermilion, and why you love the ones that you have. I am not in disagreement regarding vermilion. What does vermilion do for you that a collection of the cadmiums will not. I guess that I am asking why not just go with the cadmiums? There is certainly an astounding selection available today. What effect are you are searching for, even if subtle, or elusive in description.



And no surprise (and no apology needed!) that you like those Rembrandt Permanent Reds -- the Light is Pyrol Scarlet PR255 + Pyrol Orange PO73 the Medium is PR255 and the Deep is Pyrol Red PR254. These are all expensive and beautiful modern pigments of superior tinting strength and lightfastness! :)


No aplology intended:wave: The pigments are indeed beautiful, and of this line, I use them on occasion. Rembrandt is another paint, I would add, that can be used very well right from the tube, with no medium, should a person wish to paint without mediums. Considering the mediums that I use, some will create an adverse effect, with this line of paint, for me. Some colors are still in my paint box, however.

[Termini.]

Termini, I have about 1/3 tube of Perm Pig's Cad Red Lt, will be sad when it is gone:( , to me it is so vermilliony
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Feb-2010/112587-rsz_112587-tubes.jpg


Yeap! That is awesome paint! I'd bet that you are using it very sparingly. I sent you a PM.

JT

[gunzorro]

Termini -- As to what I'm looking for in the vermilions -- ?? I don't know exactly! :) It's no different from my purchasing the Pyrol Vermilion/Orange/Red selection, of the large variety of similar cadmiums. It's just a pigment hole I'm trying to fill. :)

What I like about the vermilions is the their tendency toward pinks when thinned with white, more so than the cadmiums. And I like the skin tones when mixed with light colored earth yellows and white. But it is very subtle, and in some ways duplicated by the pyrols.

Since I don't paint portraits, I could probably be very happy using only either pryols or cadmiums, if I had to choose. I would certainly choose either of those pigments as best all-around (all subjects) light red over vermilion.

[Einion]

Cadmiums are excellent colors, but they simply do not permit the same effects.
Actually they can and it's not difficult - the legions of professional painters who don't use Vermilion have a host of work that indirectly supports this. Direct comparisons can be done by those who own both paints.

But even if they weren't capable of the same things when used in the same way that's really a separate issue; like I said, it's about the entire palette, not one paint.

If a painter used Viridian and another used Phthalo Green BS, the first one could also claim that what Viridian can do is unique and can't be replicated by the second person, but the simple truth is that the entire range of colour possible with Viridian is contained within the mixing gamut of PG7, with appropriate additions, so the claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Some folks will look at a cerulean blue hue (made of several blues biased in opposite directions, and a white), and swear that the color is unmistakable from the actual clean cerulean blue.
Apart from the fact that this IS actually true, what matters to most painters is what it can be used to mix. And there is no discernible difference between a tint of Cerulean Blue with a smidge of whatever added to it, used to paint the the sky near the horizon, and the same colour mixed by other means. Because it's the same colour.

Others can look at the two colors, and immediately tell the difference.
That is a claim. But optical measurements don't lie, it is possible to make pigment mixtures that are the same colour as a single-pigment paint*. No ifs ands or buts: the same.

If you'd like to prove otherwise please go ahead.

Einion

*Not every single-pigment paint, in case it's not obvious.

[Termini.]

What I like about the vermilions is the their tendency toward pinks when thinned with white, more so than the cadmiums. And I like the skin tones when mixed with light colored earth yellows and white. But it is very subtle, and in some ways duplicated by the pyrols. .

Thanks for your response. I agree, and earlier in this thread mis-stated what I meant, regarding pinks. Of course both cadmium red and vermilion mixed with an appropriate white will make a pink, yet to my eye, the pinks created by vermilion appear richer, and yet in some ways more subtle.


Since I don't paint portraits, I could probably be very happy using only either pryols or cadmiums, if I had to choose. I would certainly choose either of those pigments as best all-around (all subjects) light red over vermilion.

If I had to choose between the two, I also would pick the cadmiums.

Again, thanks for your response.

Jim

[Termini.]

Actually they can and it's not difficult................


Thanks for your opinions, you spend a great amount of time with this discussion. Mixes can be very similar to actual single pigment colors; but as I'm sure you are aware, not all manufacturers use the same pigments in their mixes. Some pigments contradict each other. Regardless, if you can't see the difference between phthalo and cerulean, for your paintings, who am I to say that you should not keep doing what your doing. Your painting experience with vermilion oil paints, and things such as cerulean blue oil paint and viridian oil paint are interesting, even if I don't agree with you.

The thing that I can't disagree with you about is the entire palette being of great importance. Adaptation is crucial, and I had a discussion with an artist recently who told me that Titian had stated, to paraphrase, if someone had given him good paint, he'd make a good painting, and if someone gave him bad paint, he'd still make a good painting. I don't know if that statement is actually attributed to Titian, but the concept is pertinent. I recently did a series of paintings using a limited palette, and did so to practice making reds redder, by the ways surrounding colors are placed. It was very interesting. An earth red can be made to do some quite amazing things.

Best Regards,

Jim

[lcg]

...But even if they weren't capable of the same things when used in the same way that's really a separate issue; like I said, it's about the entire palette, not one paint.
Yes, it is a separate issue but one that ultimately involves all of us painters. It's true you can match most single pigments with a mix of other pigments. But, for me, the beauty of having a paint composed of a single pigment is in the then subsequent mixing. With vermilion the mixing is clean and predictable which is a real benefit when dealing with flesh tones.

[Einion]

Any claim that a paint - one whose colour so obviously lies within the gamut of other paints, as do the mixes achievable with it - is irreplaceable is one that needs to be looked at carefully.

So, let's try to put this in terms that should be harder to needlessly dispute: anyone that has Vermilion and the Munsell book, could you make a 1:1 mix of it and your white of choice and tell us the hue, chroma and value of it?

If anyone then wants to suggest that this tint is actually impossible to replicate using another palette (either directly or indirectly, using glazing and other forms of layering) it's put into the proper context.

...

In a discussion of colour if there are statements made about something having an indefinable quality then there's a good chance that it's not just about the actual colour of something, it's about an emotional response to the pigment and what it can do*, not purely about colour. When it comes to visual things verbal descriptions do often let us down but there are in reality no indefinable qualities here: colour is colour*. The limitations of our ability to describe things is just that, nothing more. It doesn't actually mean that such a colour or set of colours is in some way unique (as in: impossible to mix from different paints).

Many pigments do make singular mixtures with one other but those colours can of course be created using other paints, with the exception of those with very high chroma which puts them outside the range of anything else. This is a fundamental truth of mixing.

Think about the fact that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of different palettes in use around the world amongst realist painters, all producing work within the same range of colouration. One painter who relies on Cadmium Red Light and Yellow Ochre as the basis for their fleshtones, and another who prefers Cadmium Yellow and Quinacridone Scarlet could produce work that cannot be distinguished as far as the colour goes. The second painter might require a little more time and finesse to create their skin mixtures, but the same colours that are naturally created using the first palette are well within the scope of the second set of paints. Same deal with what can be achieved using Vermilion.

Einion

*From a post from nearly nine years ago:
...a lot of this is intellectualising versus being truly based on the colours within a painting.
...fundamentally there is only hue, chroma and value...

[dcorc]

anyone that has Vermilion and the Munsell book, could you make a 1:1 mix of it and your white of choice and tell us the hue, chroma and value of it?

Well, for what it's worth (and this is "quick and dirty"), Michael Harding Genuine Chinese Vermilion mixed 1:1 with W&N Artists Titanium White, here, comes out to about 2.5R6/8 (perhaps leaning a little in hue, say 3R6/8)

W&N Artists Cadmium Red mixed 1:1 with W&N Artists Titanium White, comes out to 5R 5/12 - and mixed 1:2 with Titanium white is approx 2.5R6/10

Raised to value 7, the Vermilion comes out to 2.5R7/6, and the cadmium red to 2.5R7/8

I see no reason why one couldn't mix matching colours using cadmiums, essentially what I'm seeing here is that the cadmium red is a stronger tinter.

The chromas of all these are too high at value 6, they would all require some chroma reduction to serve as "north light" flesh tints, at value 7, the vermilion is at the upper end of useful chroma, while the cadmium is over-chromatic.

One might argue the vermilion is marginally more convenient, but its expensive and could be easily matched as the cadmium is more chromatic.

I can't comment on any of the other vermilions, as I don't have samples of any of them.

[Termini.]

Hey, there are times I want to float my pancakes in artificial maple syrrup. There are other times that I want just a little of the real maple syrrup on my pancakes. The real stuff although very similar in taste, actually is quite different. Sure they are both called maple syrrup, and there are some folks who could taste both, and not be able to tell the difference. There are folks who can tell the difference. Does it make one bad, and one good? Not necessarily; just different. Different is ok. The same thing with paint. That is why there still are products like viridian, and vermilion, and cerulean, cobalt blue, cobalt violet, etc. Because painters understand that these tools have a particular use, and they have grown accustomed to this use. Folks who purchase viridian over phthalo green, or cobalt violet over a cobalt violet hue, do not do so, based on emotion, but rather experience. I suppose that a poll could be conducted regarding these things. Artists could be asked to indicate preferences, and why. The problem then arises where one would do the poll at.

Hue colors may look the same on a computer monitor, or in art supply store catalogs, where the differences in color are difference in name only. When the colors make it to the palette, the working properties are very different. Again, this is why painters have preferences, and different products are available. Another example is in glazes. A glaze of pure phthalo green, looks like something from another planet. A glaze with the actual viridian gives a much more natural appearance. Can the phthalo be doctored to look like viridian? sure. However, now there is a mix. Mix that with another mix, and what do you have. Starts down the road to gray, much more quickly.

Mixes are not necessarily bad, but it should be understood that when mixes are used, they do not behave the same as single pigment colors, in many cases. If a color is acheived by two other colors, one of which is a mix of two, the other a mix of three, and then a little white is added, there is a mix of six colors. This can in no way be as clean as two single pigment colors that are mixed together. Many painters know this, and that is why when we walk into the art supply store, we see that the best colors are the higher series, and are more expensive. They are better, and those who sell them, including partners of this website perform a service to artists in making these high quality pigments available. That is why many artists look for the highest chroma single pigment colors they can find. They are like the difference between a Lexis, and a Toyota. They are both nice cars, they look alike, even made by the same company, they just perform a little different. No matter how much one states that they look alike and do the same thing, will change the fact that they perform different. Sure they both move from point a to point b; one will just get there a little faster, when necessary, and with a little more comfort.

It is good to have different tools in the tool box. When I paint impasto, it would be a terrible waste to squeeze out a whole tube of super expensive single pigment paint. That is where the mixes and hues come in; but I love them too, just for different reasons.

[Einion]

Well, for what it's worth (and this is "quick and dirty"), Michael Harding Genuine Chinese Vermilion mixed 1:1 with W&N Artists Titanium White, here, comes out to about 2.5R6/8 (perhaps leaning a little in hue, say 3R6/8)

W&N Artists Cadmium Red mixed 1:1 with W&N Artists Titanium White, comes out to 5R 5/12 - and mixed 1:2 with Titanium white is approx 2.5R6/10

Raised to value 7, the Vermilion comes out to 2.5R7/6, and the cadmium red to 2.5R7/8
Ta!

Appreciate you getting to that so quickly.

...

Now, deliberately avoiding diversions about maple syrup or cars, anyone want to go on record saying that 2.5R 7/6 is impossible to mix by other means?

Einion

[schravix]

I see no reason why one couldn't mix matching colours using cadmiums, essentially what I'm seeing here is that the cadmium red is a stronger tinter.



One might argue the vermilion is marginally more convenient, but its expensive and could be easily matched as the cadmium is more chromatic.



Your right about cadmium being a stronger tinting pigment. The big difference, however, is that the undertone of vermilion tends to have a warmer undertone. Contrary to someone's earlier post, I find that when mixed with white, vermilion tends to retain it's hue more so than cadmium, which starts to grey out a bit.
Mixing Cad. red lt. with cad orange can yield a convincing approximation of vermilion, but unlike vermilion, that mix will start to grey-out when making tints.

[Termini.]

Ta!

Appreciate you getting to that so quickly.

...

Now, deliberately avoiding diversions about maple syrup or cars, anyone want to go on record saying that 2.5R 7/6 is impossible to mix by other means?

Einion

Again, on a computer screen, these colors are different in name only. How about this, do you think that Daler Rowney Cadmium red hue, is of the same quality as Old Holland cadmium red? How about the difference between Williamsburg Cobalt violet, and Daler Rowney cobalt violet hue? They look the same on a computer screen, don't they? What is the difference when one uses them? In practice, which brands do you think that people who concern themselves with munsell are purchasing, and why?

[Termini.]

Your right about cadmium being a stronger tinting pigment. The big difference, however, is that the undertone of vermilion tends to have a warmer undertone. Contrary to someone's earlier post, I find that when mixed with white, vermilion tends to retain it's hue more so than cadmium, which starts to grey out a bit.
Mixing Cad. red lt. with cad orange can yield a convincing approximation of vermilion, but unlike vermilion, that mix will start to grey-out when making tints.

Absolutely! Thanks for this explanation. You have just described what I have been unable to say appropriately.

[Patrick1]

If a color is acheived by two other colors, one of which is a mix of two, the other a mix of three, and then a little white is added, there is a mix of six colors. This can in no way be as clean as two single pigment colors that are mixed together.
The six-pigment mix has lost some chroma, not automatically because it contains more pigments, but because there is white in the mix:rolleyes:. How about this: a mix of five, or six, or 50, high-chroma yellows vs. a mix of two lower-chroma single pigment yellows, or even vs. one lower-chroma single pigment yellow like Nickel Titanate Yellow?

[sidbledsoe]

If you are talking strictly color evaluation, I say it is even possible to mix a 2.5R 7/6 with no oil paint, you can do it with acrylic paint.

[Termini.]

Well, for what it's worth (and this is "quick and dirty"), Michael Harding Genuine Chinese Vermilion mixed 1:1 with W&N Artists Titanium White, here, comes out to about 2.5R6/8 (perhaps leaning a little in hue, say 3R6/8)

W&N Artists Cadmium Red mixed 1:1 with W&N Artists Titanium White, comes out to 5R 5/12 - and mixed 1:2 with Titanium white is approx 2.5R6/10

Raised to value 7, the Vermilion comes out to 2.5R7/6, and the cadmium red to 2.5R7/8

I see no reason why one couldn't mix matching colours using cadmiums, essentially what I'm seeing here is that the cadmium red is a stronger tinter.

The chromas of all these are too high at value 6, they would all require some chroma reduction to serve as "north light" flesh tints, at value 7, the vermilion is at the upper end of useful chroma, while the cadmium is over-chromatic.

One might argue the vermilion is marginally more convenient, but its expensive and could be easily matched as the cadmium is more chromatic.

I can't comment on any of the other vermilions, as I don't have samples of any of them.

Dave,

I was wondering what the numbers are with each red prior to mixing the white into each? Isn't the MH Chinese vermilion a somewhat darker color than the WN cadmium red?

[Termini.]

The six-pigment mix has lost some chroma, not automatically because it contains more pigments, but because there is white in the mix:rolleyes:. How about this: a mix of five, or six, or 50, high-chroma yellows vs. a mix of two lower-chroma single pigment yellows, or even vs. one lower-chroma single pigment yellow like Nickel Titanate Yellow?

I think you knew what I meant. In the scenarios that you describe, there isn't as much competition. In the law, I think they call what you have said a "loophole."

[schravix]

Ta!

Appreciate you getting to that so quickly.

...

Now, deliberately avoiding diversions about maple syrup or cars, anyone want to go on record saying that 2.5R 7/6 is impossible to mix by other means?

Einion
It's not. Here's one of many ways to arrive at that chip.
Cad red lt.
Pyrol red
Zinc white

With that mix, you can still maintain a pretty high chroma.

[dcorc]

Dave,

I was wondering what the numbers are with each red prior to mixing the white into each? Isn't the MH Chinese vermilion a somewhat darker color than the WN cadmium red?

Again, this is "quick and dirty" data, and only for the MH vermilion and W&N Artist cadmium red, but the closest chip to the vermilion is 7.5R4/12 and to the cadmium red is 7.5R4/16. I think they are both very close to those values and chromas, the vermilion leans a little below 7.5 in hue, I'd estimate 6 or so, and the cadmium red leans a little higher, perhaps 8-8.5 or so.

So the MH vermilion isn't darker, its less chromatic and slightly different in hue.

[Termini.]

Again, this is "quick and dirty" data, and only for the MH vermilion and W&N Artist cadmium red, but the closest chip to the vermilion is 7.5R4/12 and to the cadmium red is 7.5R4/16. I think they are both very close to those values and chromas, the vermilion leans a little below 7.5 in hue, I'd estimate 6 or so, and the cadmium red leans a little higher, perhaps 8-8.5 or so.

So the MH vermilion isn't darker, its less chromatic and slightly different in hue.


Thanks Dave.

[Termini.]

I am looking forward to the results of Jim's test.

[gunzorro]

Here's something along the lines of what we are discussing.

I just completed this comparison of various vermilions, cadmiums and pyrols, mixed into various whites and the SP V5 Grey.

I think it is important when evaluating hue to have an exact white in mind. Some are warmer, others cooler. Some are more or less opaque. These white factors can throw off the hue and chroma of the paints being evaluated.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8625web.jpg

I used Graham's Walnut Alkyd to speed drying time (some of these true vermilions and cadmiums can take well over a week to surface dry) so that I will be able to lay down some Munsell chips on the sheet and rephotograph in the next day or two.

I wanted to get this up before the Munsell chips because I think the visual bears directly on what we've been discussing about these colors.

The colors are: Blockx Pyrol Vermilion PO73, Williamsburg Cad Red Vermilion PR108, Studio Products Vermilion PR106, Vasari Cad Red Vermilion (combination pigment) PR113, Mussini Vermilion "Tone" (pyrol) PR255 and Harding Vermilion PR106.

You'll notice the behavior of the WB cadmium, SP vermilion, Vas cad/verm and the Muss (pyrol) vermilion tone all behave surprisingly similar in all white and grey mixes. Any of these four could practically be used interchangably with the others, at least in white tints. But I suspect we would see the same relationship in mixes with earth pigments and others. I don't know if we can say that any of these paints is truly indispensible. Visually, the SP version seems to have more in common color-wise than with the Muss pyrol than the Vas cad/verm or the Harding verm.

[rltromble]

Very interesting Jim. Personally I have a habit of collecting art materials (just not to your extent :p ) , but I have stayed away from GV, because of the price more then anything else. It just to difficult to justify dropping $70-100 on one tube of paint. To me its not the colors or even the pallet (though your pallet will limit you to a range of possible colors) as much as it is the painter. I think this may boil down to personal preference really. Some times using a paint with a lower chroma or tinting strength is easier to start with then one with a stronger chroma or tinting strength so I can see where you would find a color such as this necessary.

[ly]

Hi Jim
Any results for Vermilions lightfast test ?
ly

[gunzorro]

ly -- I just put it out two days ago, affixed to the side of my house! Adding them to my other couple lightfastness experiments.

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but I added Vasari Cadmium Vermilion Red Light (PR113) on the far right side.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8968web.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/?action=view&current=IMG_8968web.jpg)

Termini had suggested that I mix in amber varnish to the wet paint, which I did to the tail end of the sample strips. It took seemingly forever (around 3-4 weeks) for a few of the paint strip samples to completely surface dry. I allowed them to go a little longer drying, just to make sure I wouldn't have any lifting of the paint layer when I applied varnishes over the top.

I finally added the varnishes (Gamvar, Soluvar, Old Holland, 25% Amber Varnish, and previously the 25% Amber mixed into paint) and allowed them to dry.

Now the waiting begins. . .

[llawrence]

Thank you for doing these, looking forward to the results.

Some readers here may be aware of this: it looks as if the culprit in darkening of vermilion may have been identified, according to the Natural Pigments forum, as traces of chloride in the paint:

Keune concluded that the traces of chloride in the red vermilion act as a catalyst in the reaction between vermilion and light. This results in small particles of metallic mercury that completely absorb the light and is visible on the painting as black spots. With this finding, the long-held view that the black product was a black form of mercury sulfide was rejected. This metallic mercury subsequently reacts with the excess chloride to form a white mercury chloride compound.
NP Forum (http://www.naturalpigments.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000011)

The article:

PDF (http://www.nwo.nl/files.nsf/pages/NWOP_66TERQ_Eng/$file/Mayerne2004gecorr.pdf)

[Brian Firth]

Thank you for doing these, looking forward to the results.

Some readers here may be aware of this: it looks as if the culprit in darkening of vermilion may have been identified, according to the Natural Pigments forum, as traces of chloride in the paint:


NP Forum (http://www.naturalpigments.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000011)

The article:

PDF (http://www.nwo.nl/files.nsf/pages/NWOP_66TERQ_Eng/$file/Mayerne2004gecorr.pdf)


This article references the "back spot" darkening of vermilion, however all genuine vermilion that I have tested darkened (including Natural Pigments) uniformly with the entire paint layer darkening. I have never seen any vermilion darken in just spots, only uniformly across the entire paint layer. So, this article is far from conclusive.

[ly]

Hi Jim
Any results for Vermilions lightfast test ?
ly

[ly]

Hi Jim
Any results for Vermilions lightfast test ?
ly

[gunzorro]

ly -- Sorry!! I missed your posting early this month!

The results are nearly ready -- I think I'll wait until near the beginning of the year, when the Chrome Yellow/Green test is done.

I expanded the vermilion test with Natural Pigments and Studio Products versions. Even though these samples are two months less exposure, they are essentially identical to these previous ones. This leads to conclusion that the greatest amount of change happens early, leading to a state of little or no change.

[Trond]

Actually they can and it's not difficult - the legions of professional painters who don't use Vermilion have a host of work that indirectly supports this. Direct comparisons can be done by those who own both paints.

But even if they weren't capable of the same things when used in the same way that's really a separate issue; like I said, it's about the entire palette, not one paint.

If a painter used Viridian and another used Phthalo Green BS, the first one could also claim that what Viridian can do is unique and can't be replicated by the second person, but the simple truth is that the entire range of colour possible with Viridian is contained within the mixing gamut of PG7, with appropriate additions, so the claim doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Apart from the fact that this IS actually true, what matters to most painters is what it can be used to mix. And there is no discernible difference between a tint of Cerulean Blue with a smidge of whatever added to it, used to paint the the sky near the horizon, and the same colour mixed by other means. Because it's the same colour.

That is a claim. But optical measurements don't lie, it is possible to make pigment mixtures that are the same colour as a single-pigment paint*. No ifs ands or buts: the same.

If you'd like to prove otherwise please go ahead.

Einion

*Not every single-pigment paint, in case it's not obvious.
Not so fast there. I can see where you are going here, and I think that modern pigments can reproduce any color available in the past, BUT that does not mean that everything is the same to the painter. Pigments are not just colors and values, but specific chemical compounds.

Take manganese blue for instance. I am sure you can match its hue and value with other pigments, but its disappearance is still frustrating to painters who liked its slight grittiness and quick drying, and many painters also dislike the over-the-top intensity of pthalocynine pigments on their palette. Also, mixing pigments can have slightly unpredictable results that you get used to (although I doubt if many modern painters have gotten used to genuine vermilion). If you are used to genuine lead white, then switching to titanium will likely make your next painting look a bit chalky and cold.

You can mix a cerulean blue color, but you cannot expect that mix to behave similarly with other pigments, due to differences in tinting strength and transparency. In fact, you have to re-mix every single color to match your previous ones. This does not mean that the old colors were better, they just behaved differently. There are several reasons why old paintings look different from new ones, and one of them is that virtually all the pigments have changed.

Having said that, vermilion seems to me to be a rather troublesome color, and I am not sure it is worth the expense, unless you want your paintings to look exactly like old master paintings, pigment textures and all. Vermilion is, to my knowledge, a slow dryer which can be absolutely permanent under certain conditions, but it reacts badly in others.

Finally, it's interesting to see how many old color names are retained in the art business, and when artists keep finding 'vermilion' hues among the paints some of them are bound to wonder what true vermilion was like.

[ly]

ly -- Sorry!! I missed your posting early this month!

The results are nearly ready -- I think I'll wait until near the beginning of the year, when the Chrome Yellow/Green test is done.

I expanded the vermilion test with Natural Pigments and Studio Products versions. Even though these samples are two months less exposure, they are essentially identical to these previous ones. This leads to conclusion that the greatest amount of change happens early, leading to a state of little or no change.

Hi Jim
Any results ?
ly

[Einion]

Not so fast there. I can see where you are going here, and I think that modern pigments can reproduce any color available in the past, BUT that does not mean that everything is the same to the painter. Pigments are not just colors and values, but specific chemical compounds.
...
You can mix a cerulean blue color, but you cannot expect that mix to behave similarly with other pigments, due to differences in tinting strength and transparency.
Yep, I have addressed this numerous times in these sorts of discussions. Since even two versions of Cerulean can vary quite a bit and also not mix quite the same I don't see it as much of a problem :)

If you are used to genuine lead white, then switching to titanium will likely make your next painting look a bit chalky and cold.
Roger that, could well happen unless the painter takes specific steps to compensate by adjusting - mixing for the colour they want, rather than by following the same basic mixing routines they used with Lead White.

There are several reasons why old paintings look different from new ones, and one of them is that virtually all the pigments have changed.
Basically I'd agree but I don't think it's right to say that virtually all the pigments have changed colour, certainly a large number of them have though. The colours certainly would have changed almost universally even if due only to the yellowing of the vehicle, but the increasing transparency over time plays a large part too as can aged varnish.

Einion

[Trond]

Basically I'd agree but I don't think it's right to say that virtually all the pigments have changed colour, certainly a large number of them have though. The colours certainly would have changed almost universally even if due only to the yellowing of the vehicle, but the increasing transparency over time plays a large part too as can aged varnish.

Einion
Sorry, my statement may not have been very clear. It was more focused on the artist pigments used having been supplanted by new ones in modern paints. It may not change the color much if mixed correctly, but it can still change the look of your paintings. You can get pretty much the same color and value by applying a gritty earth pigment transparently over a white background, or by mixing a new mars color with titanium white. It still will not look the same due to the differing textures and translucency of the materials used. To some, these things may be unimportant, but it makes a big difference to others. Fans of Williamsburg love the gritty feel of their earth colors, and if you look closely, the pigments make a very different surface on the painting. To such painters, saying that you can easily mix Williamsburg's burnt sienna from other colors would make little sense.

[michael harding]

If any of you are wondering yes I am the paint maker.

Great work Jim lets see in a few months which change, for my money I would say any genuine vermilion will change. That begs the question which is real? When I located my source some 10 years or more ago I had it checked out by friends at Birkbeck College part of London University, they informed me it was 99.9% mercuric sulphide using x-ray diffraction. So lets clarify vermilion is mercuric sulphide and nothing else and is known in the colour index code as pigment red 106 or abbreviated CI Pr 106.

Placing other mixes and pretend vermilion reds in this test is pointless, as they should be labeled on the tube as “Red” or state clearly as “imitation vermilion”. I see it a bit like wine it should be drunk on its own with no ice!

If people want a red with no history but good light and colour stability they should start another thread called permanent reds! Also do not forget if you put any old master in direct sunlight we know what will happen.

[gunzorro]

Michael -- Thanks so much for dropping in on the discussion! Yes, I did mix the two different types, but I think we can clearly see the differences. The brighter versions have also been declared by their makers as genuine, so the only way to tell would be independent chemical analysis -- anyone want to be a patron?

Thank you for your past generous support in this project, and for your continued efforts to bring quality paint to artists.

ly -- Thanks for the reminder! I'll look into doing the write-up and posting the photos. :)

[michael harding]

Jim, one way of brightening a vermilion up would be to add a brighter red say a cadmium light or a bright organic red to an existing genuine vermilion. This might throw the result of a chemical analysis since a test would also show mercury/sulphur that might lead people to assume its genuine through out.

[schravix]

See if you can find Dr. Leslie Carlyle's excellent research on the darkening of HgS pigments due to adulteration with cheaper, easier to produce pigments.
Also something to take into consideration is that a single chemical compound can yield a variety of different colors; For example FeO (PBr7) appears as dozens of distinct hues.

[michael harding]

She is an old friend I did raise the point years ago with her that vermilion could have been cut with minum, red lead another pigment thats heavy and has a black phase.

[sidbledsoe]

Excellent valuable information being revealed here guys, thanks very much!

[ly]

Michael -- Thanks so much for dropping in on the discussion! Yes, I did mix the two different types, but I think we can clearly see the differences. The brighter versions have also been declared by their makers as genuine, so the only way to tell would be independent chemical analysis -- anyone want to be a patron?

Thank you for your past generous support in this project, and for your continued efforts to bring quality paint to artists.

ly -- Thanks for the reminder! I'll look into doing the write-up and posting the photos. :)

Hi Jim
Any problem with test results ?
ly

[ly]

Michael -- Thanks so much for dropping in on the discussion! Yes, I did mix the two different types, but I think we can clearly see the differences. The brighter versions have also been declared by their makers as genuine, so the only way to tell would be independent chemical analysis -- anyone want to be a patron?

Thank you for your past generous support in this project, and for your continued efforts to bring quality paint to artists.

ly -- Thanks for the reminder! I'll look into doing the write-up and posting the photos. :)

Hi Jim
It's only a reminder...
Thanks
ly

[ly]

Hi Jim
Is there any problem to post Vermilion Lightfast Test ?
Sorry to remind you...
ly

[gunzorro]

ly -- No problem. Just the usual distraction: wind, rain, photo assignments, camera & lens testing. . . and a general shiftlessness. ;)

I've pulled the samples out and have a camera sitting next to them. . .

Soon-ish. :)

[gunzorro]

Okay! Sorry to take so long!

I'll admit, it wasn't just the photographing that delayed me. The summary of results was also a deterrent! ;)

Here were go!

I've literally "assembled" examples for you to view, in all their redundency, along with an extraneous color bonus (a reward for your patience!). ;)

The first shot is a two-shot panorama stitched together in PSE8 from two shots below. There is also one overall shot of the to pieces of acrylic primed poly-canvas vermilion tests.

Overall, these reproductions might show a slightly enhanced red saturation over the real examples, which are a little bit more dull. The examples are for determining broad comparison, not for exact color matching. YMMV.

As you can see, I continued (and I think concluded here) my experiment with varnishes to see if any offered particular protection from fading or discoloration. The first note I'd like to make is that all these pigments are very consistent, even those that darkened, and no amount of varnish, even with UV blockers like Gamvar and Soluvar, have made any detectable difference. The only "oddity" is the 25% Amber, which by its nature was darker and glossier than all the others.

Paint notes: 1) You might be able to detect that the Vasari has a slightly different hue than the other bright samples -- slightly shifted to a more rosy-magenta. Not a lot, but it is there. 2) Also, the Natural Pigments texture and surface produce the most beautiful dead matte surface of all the samples -- it is almost impossible to see any reflection or differences in the texture -- that is beautiful milling of pigment.

Color candidates, for left to right: Blockx, Harding, Studio Products, Doak, Blue Ridge, Vasari, Natural Pigments and RGH.

Varnishes, from top to bottom: Gamvar, Soluvar (matte), Old Holland (gloss), 25% Amber (undiluted, custom-made), and 25% Mix (diluted slightly).

Obviously, there are (at least) two types of pigment here! The Vasari is the only one listed as PR113, a combination cadmium/mercury pigment. All the others are reported by their makers to be genuine PR106, with the exception of Blue Ridge, who is listing their paint as "cadmium" until such time as it can offer conclusive proof of the pigment.

Beyond these tests, the next step would be scientific analysis of the pigment samples to determine why some are darker than others. I will gladly off these samples if someone wishes to underwrite the cost of testing. Just let me know the lab, and I'll send them the samples. Otherwise, this is the extent of my involvment in the testing and comparison of vermilion pigments. (Whew!)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/Vermilion-Pano-web.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_6506.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_6507.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_6508.jpg

The final is in response to a different thread (if I ever go looking for it, I'll update it) about supposed genuine Chrome Yellows fading (lead chromate, no longer generally used in commercial oil paints). The result is as can be seen: no fading. Sorry to disappoint! ;) These are Winsor Newton Oil Paint, circa 1960s. I include their Chrome Green which is a combination of Chrome Yellow and Prussian Blue. You can see a little fading on the opaque section, but I attribute that to weathering, not sun-fading, as you can see the transparent brushed paint on the right side has not faded. The yellow samples are laid down the say way: solid opaque on the left of the sample swatch, and thinned semi-transparent on the right.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_6510.jpg

[Brian Firth]

Jim,
Great tests as usual. The results are what I expected, the proven real vermillon darkened, while the other "vermilions" (from companies that don't comply with ASTM standards) didn't. There is really no need to test these pigments, any manufacturer of real vermilion paint should easily be able to provide an MSDS sheet from the manufacturer of the genuine vermilion mercuric sulphide PR106 pigment (there's only one or two in the world). Any company that can't is hiding something, it is up to them to prove their product is real, not us the consumer. Real vermilion darkens in sunlight, period. That says it all to me about the other "vermilions". Also, as a note, Blue Ridge has stated publicly and privately that their vermilion pigment was not genuine.

Also, your chrome yellow tests match mine, as I tested the Chroma Archival Superchome yellows and they also proved perfectly lightfast.

Also, as previously debated, the amber varnish did nothing to hinder darkening of genuine vermilion.

[ly]

Hi Jim
Thanks a lot.
Now I can safely use Vasari CadVermilion.
Also I will use safely Chrome Yellow from NP(which is coated chrome yellow
that is a lightfast version and may be WN used this type of pigment).
I'm not shure if I can use safely Prusian blue as most tests done by others
shows it is not so lightfast.
Thanks gain
ly

[karenlee]

Wow, thank you Jim, another great feat!!!
I take this to mean my Doak Vermilion is definitely not mercuric sulphide. Good.
-Karen

[Brian Firth]

Hi Jim
Thanks a lot.
Now I can safely use Vasari CadVermilion.
Also I will use safely Chrome Yellow from NP(which is coated chrome yellow
that is a lightfast version and may be WN used this type of pigment).
I'm not shure if I can use safely Prusian blue as most tests done by others
shows it is not so lightfast.
Thanks gain
ly


Ly,
I have tested several Prussian Blues and can say that every single sample (samples from the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's) of Grumbacher Pre-Tested Prussian Blue is absolutely lightfast and would recommend this as a reliable Prussian Blue.


The Chrome yellows I tested were also the coated pigments and were completely lightfast.

[Brian Firth]

Wow, thank you Jim, another great feat!!!
I take this to mean my Doak Vermilion is definitely not mercuric sulphide. Good.
-Karen


Karen,
But you are paying a premium price for a paint that should be priced the same as other cadmium reds ($40 for the "vermilion" and $22 for cad red). It is sold under the false impression that it is made from a much rarer and expensive pigment, which is the determining factor in pricing paints. Doak's version is called Vermilion Genuine after all, so any reasonable person would assume this to mean it is genuine vermilion! This to me is dishonest and I choose not to do business with businesses that act in this way.

[ly]

Ly,
I have tested several Prussian Blues and can say that every single sample (samples from the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's) of Grumbacher Pre-Tested Prussian Blue is absolutely lightfast and would recommend this as a reliable Prussian Blue.


The Chrome yellows I tested were also the coated pigments and were completely lightfast.

Hi Brian
Thanks for the info.
I have Da Vinci Prussian blue(oil paint), did you test this paint ?
(according to Handprint it is lightfast)
http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html
Thanks
ly

[Tony NY]

[quote]
I've literally "assembled" examples for you to view, in all their redundency, along with an extraneous color bonus (a reward for your patience!). ;)

Thanks a million, Jim :thumbsup: I can't say enough on how valuable your work is to us. I appreciate immensily your dedication and research.


Obviously, there are (at least) two types of pigment here! The Vasari is the only one listed as PR113, a combination cadmium/mercury pigment. All the others are reported by their makers to be genuine PR106, with the exception of Blue Ridge, who is listing their paint as "cadmium" until such time as it can offer conclusive proof of the pigment.

Maybe the "manufacturer's" won't tell us what the real pigment is, but I believe the sun has.


Beyond these tests, the next step would be scientific analysis of the pigment samples to determine why some are darker than others. I will gladly off these samples if someone wishes to underwrite the cost of testing. Just let me know the lab, and I'll send them the samples. Otherwise, this is the extent of my involvment in the testing and comparison of vermilion pigments. (Whew!)

Well done.
Tony

[Tony NY]

J
[quote]
The results are what I expected, the proven real vermillon darkened, while the other "vermilions" (from companies that don't comply with ASTM standards) didn't. There is really no need to test these pigments, any manufacturer of real vermilion paint should easily be able to provide an MSDS sheet from the manufacturer of the genuine vermilion mercuric sulphide PR106 pigment (there's only one or two in the world). Any company that can't is hiding something, it is up to them to prove their product is real, not us the consumer. Real vermilion darkens in sunlight, period. That says it all to me about the other "vermilions".

:thumbsup:

[Tony NY]

[quote]
I'm not shure if I can use safely Prusian blue as most tests done by others
shows it is not so lightfast. ly

Ly,
There is one way to be sure. Paint a strip of your Prussian Blue PB 27 along side others of Ultramarine Blue PB 29, Cobalt Blue PB 28, Cerulean Blue PB 36 etc. and expose them to sunshine for a year or so in your window. Time and the sun will soon answer your questions. :)
Tony

[Brian Firth]

Hi Brian
Thanks for the info.
I have Da Vinci Prussian blue(oil paint), did you test this paint ?
(according to Handprint it is lightfast)
http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html
Thanks
ly
Ly,
No, I haven't tested the Da Vinci Prussian Blue. I have only tested their PY83 in oils, which did very well. From my correspondence with the owner of Da Vinci, Marcello Dworzak, I can say they seem dedicated to producing high quality materials. However, I would second Tony's suggestion of doing your own test. It has been my experience that defective prussian blue pigment fades fast, as in a month or two in tints with white. So, you should be able to quickly determine it's general lighfastness. Of course, I have tested different prussian blues from the same paint manufacturers, like Winsor and Newton, and some were perfectly lightfast and other not leading me to conclude it is an issue of inconsistency from the pigment manufacturers, but that is only speculation. The reality is that no single pigment is constant in its lighfastess. Even bad batches of cadmiums and bismuth vanadate pigments are sometimes seen, as documented on handprint.com's results. Only Grumbacher was consistently lightfast in all samples of prussian blue, but the scope of my tests was very limited and there are many brands I haven't tested.

[Termini.]

*

[llawrence]

Thanks Gunzorro.

Doak's version is called Vermilion Genuine after all, so any reasonable person would assume this to mean it is genuine vermilion! This to me is dishonest and I choose not to do business with businesses that act in this way.+1 for me. End of relationship with Doak, before it got started. Good riddance! We've got enough problems with tube labels...

[gunzorro]

Thanks folks for your support and encouragement. Sorry the tests take so long to accomplish, but I think the results are worthwhile.

I want to thank the manufacturers that contributed samples, particularly Jacques Blockx and Michael Harding (these two being the first to contribute), as well as Studio Products and Blue Ridge. These companies helped make this the most comprehensive display of vermilions and the effects of sunlight that I've ever seen or heard of. Thank you! There is also one benefactor who chose to remain nameless who contributed the NP and RGH samples at his own expense -- thanks! I bought the Vasari and Doak myself.

My results are not intended to foster controversy, and I'm witholding any judgement on the authenticy of the pigments until some day (if ever!) that we can get an chemical analysis to prove the composition.

[Chip Reuben]

Would love to see the results of Jim's test, as the interval has now been long enough to present very instructive results.