November- December: Hans Memling [Archive]

stapeliad

11-01-2011, 01:10 PM

=http://www.hansmemling.org (http://www.hansmemling.org)

Hans Memling (Memlinc) (c. 1430 - 11 August 1494) was an Early Netherlandish painter, born in Seligenstadt/Germany, who was the last major fifteenth century artist in the Low Countries, the successor to Jan van Eyck and Rogier van der Weyden, whose tradition he continued with little innovation.

Born in Seligenstadt, near Frankfurt in the Middle Rhein region, it is believed that Memling served his apprenticeship at Mainz or Cologne, and later worked in the Netherlands under Rogier van der Weyden (c. 1455-1460). He then went to Bruges around 1465

Complete biography
http://www.hansmemling.org/biography.html

*************************************

Painting Methods
These are all relatively small works, all on panels.
Size recommendation is whatever you are comfortable with, as long as the proportions are correct. I would say the approx size ranges are between 11x14 to16x20.

Here is a thread from earlier this year which talks about van Eyke.
(http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936651)

This style is very linear and delicate. You can see how detailed and fine the drawings are for these paintings. The paint layers are thin glazes over the very detailed drawing.

********************************************

Palette recommendations: I think earth tones would be very appropriate for all these paintings, as well as an approximation to vermillion for the Virgin and Child painting.

*********************************************

Angel with an Olive Branch, Emblem of Divine Peace

link to Image (http://www.hansmemling.org/Angel-with-an-Olive-Branch,-Emblem-of-Divine-Peace.html)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2011/53789-m1.jpg

Isn’t this pretty? The background is gold. You can be really ambitious and use gold leaf (you will have to look up those instructions), or you could paint the area yellow with maybe some patches of your earth red, let it dry, and overlay it with gold oil paint. That would look very nice.

Recommended Palette:
Any earth red (transparent red oxide is a good choice, so is burnt sienna)
Yellow Ochre
French Ultramarine
Burnt Umber
Ivory OR Mars Black
Flake white (or titanium if you prefer)

Gold
Several brands carry gold. WN makes a very nice Renaissance Gold. Williamsburg also makes a nice gold. Gamblin’s is probably good too, though I haven’t personally tried it.

St John and Veronica Diptych (reverse of the right wing)

link to image (http://www.hansmemling.org/St-John-and-Veronica-Diptych-%28reverse-of-the-right-wing%29-c.-1483-large.html)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2011/53789-m2.jpg

There is a lot of trompe l'oeil in these Early Renaissance paintings. Here is one I thought was cool looking but relatively simple.

Recommended Palette:
Any earth red (transparent red oxide is a good choice, so is burnt sienna)
Yellow Ochre
French Ultramarine
Burnt Umber
Ivory OR Mars Black
Flake white (or titanium if you prefer)

You do not need gold paint for this painting. That shimmer is done through proper values.

Diptych with the Allegory of True Love

Link to image (http://www.hansmemling.org/Diptych-with-the-Allegory-of-True-Love-large.html)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2011/53789-m3.jpg

I love this lady; she lives at the Met. I want a dress like that!! And look at the wonderful stylized forms in the trees! This is the one I am painting, on a 10x20 support.

Recommended Palette:
Any earth red (transparent red oxide is a good choice, so is burnt sienna)
Alizarin or equivalent
Yellow Ochre
French Ultramarine
Burnt Umber
Ivory OR Mars Black
Flake white (or titanium if you prefer)

Portinari Triptych (central panel) 1487

link to image (http://www.hansmemling.org/Portinari-Triptych-%28central-panel%29-1487-large.html)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2011/53789-m4.jpg

I tried to find a Virgin and Child where the baby didn’t look creepy, as I think they usually do. This one is ok though. I love Mary’s expression as she looks at her son.

Recommended Palette:
Any earth red (transparent red oxide is a good choice, so is burnt sienna)
Vermillion or equivalent**
Yellow Ochre
French Ultramarine
Burnt Umber
Ivory OR Mars Black
Flake white (or titanium if you prefer)

**Genuine Vermillion is difficult to find and is also extremely toxic. There are some versions of vermillion equivalents. I have a Lukas 1862 vermillion which is very nice. Otherwise a bright warm red would suffice. You can use cadmium red light. Rembrandt makes a lovely perm. red medium which would also be good.

The Donne Triptych (left wing) c. 1475

Link to image (http://www.hansmemling.org/The-Donne-Triptych-%28left-wing%29-c.-1475-large.html)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2011/53789-m5.jpg

For those that want a perspective challenge and a full figure. Gold paint would be nice to use for the halo.

Recommended Palette:
Any earth red (transparent red oxide is a good choice, so is burnt sienna)
Alizarin or equivalent
Yellow Ochre
French Ultramarine
Burnt Umber
Ivory OR Mars Black
Flake white (or titanium if you prefer)

Gold
Several brands carry gold. WN makes a very nice Renaissance Gold. Williamsburg also makes one. Gamblin’s is probably good too, though I haven’t personally tried it.

The purple can be mixed with your ultramarine and alizarin and a tiny bit of the earth red.

moscatel

11-02-2011, 12:44 AM

Jessica, great references! :thumbsup:
The angel :angel: is fabulous and the still life too, but without the snake.:o They are all gorgeous, makes it difficult to choose.
Seeing the angel makes me want to purchase gold leaf, maybe on-line.. let's see what I can find.

Marigold

11-02-2011, 09:30 AM

Hello Jessica,

I have been looking forward to the new Painting with the Masters project. :thumbsup: Let me say you and the other hosts have provided an excellent variety of selections over the past months! It has been very inspiring and educational.

Hans Memling is another interesting and challenging choice. Art from this period is difficult to get access to (I used to skip those wings in the big galleries) On first sight the paintings seem cold, formal and unoriginal, the content too predictalbe and too far removed from our life and world view today. What do we do with another Madonna with Child? Yet I have found that when I take the time to really look at such pieces of "old art", their beauty can deeply move me. They can teach me much about drawing and painting, composition, use of symbols etc. They also give new insight into the history of painting, because those were the works of art that future generations of painters have drawn inspiration from.

I am already hooked :o I will certainly do at least some drawings or a small study.

Moscatel :wave: - I might also have a go with the Angel with Olive Branch! I have no experience at all with gold leaf - and no idea what the cost of the materials might be, well I'll see.

Susanne

stapeliad

11-02-2011, 10:40 AM

stapeliad

11-02-2011, 10:43 AM

Also, here is the pic I took of the girl in the red dress.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2011/53789-memling1.jpg

Marigold

11-02-2011, 10:51 AM

stapeliad

11-02-2011, 11:12 AM

Susanne, I honestly am not sure but I noticed it too. My best guess is that these drawings were not done with a brush but rather a quill or pen of some kind. It might be temera or even ink.

!becca

11-02-2011, 12:41 PM

Jessica, congratulations on another great choice!:thumbsup:

Oilybloke

11-02-2011, 12:58 PM

Great choice Jessica , never really done a still life master copy so st johns it is :D

stapeliad

11-02-2011, 01:30 PM

Hi Leigh, I am very glad to have you joining us! :wave:

NancyMP

11-03-2011, 12:22 AM

Jessica, I think you should have a dress like that made for you; you would look wonderful in it! I like the trompe l'oeil vase, and may give it a try if I get some time! Lovely thread, and lots of challenge to the modern eye!

Magical_Realist

11-03-2011, 02:49 AM

Jessica, thanks for posting the unfinished panel, this is very instructional. I am wondering why the shadows in the underdrawing are hatched.

I suspect it's because oil painting techniques at the time were still derived from those used for tempera. The same sort of precise drawing and hatched shadows were the beginning of every tempera painting, so it was carried forward into the relatively new medium of oil.

But that sort of hatching was still useful for establishing where the darkest values were to go. Having looked at some other artists' work from this period and experimented with their techniques, the first layers of paint tend to be translucent or semi-opaque, rather than transparent. The hatched shadows would show through the first layer of local color just enough to indicate where subsequent glazes in the shadow areas should go. And one nice thing about the hatched under-drawing is that even though it shows through only faintly, it gives some liveliness to the shadow areas.

The hatching isn't used on areas of skin. To get that smooth, flawless appearance, the shadows were lightly underpainted in gray or brown to establish values, then subsequent layers of fleshtones went over that.

As for the general painting technique, it's similar to tempera in that a mid-tone local color was applied to an area, then the lights were built up by working back into that still-wet area with white. Once that was dry, deeper shadows were glazed in. Then, at the end, came any additional glazes needed to modify color or value.

And stapeliad isn't kidding about the detailed drawing being an essential part of the process; it shows through the paint and is absolutely crucial to the sharp-focus look of these paintings. I enjoy using this technique; it's not horribly difficult and the results can be amazing, but getting the drawing right before you break out the paints is 95% of it.

Edgah

11-03-2011, 08:02 AM

Awesome. I was studying van der weyden for a painting a few months ago and will definitely be joining in this month. :clap:

Marigold

11-03-2011, 10:18 AM

Hello Leigh, Nancy and Edgah :wave: it is great to have you all on bord!

Magical, thank you for all this input. I will try to find out what material may be used for the underdrawing with hatched strokes (charcoal is too dark I think?).

I did some brief research on the Angel. I was wondering about the format - the cut off wings are odd, I thought that in the 15th century more complete figures would be preferred. The painting is in possession of the Louvre in Paris. The panel is very small: only 10x16cm (4x6.3in). According to the Louvre catalogue, the painting was part of a small triptych. It is a fragment of the left wing. So the painting used to be larger, and the current frame is not original.

Its sibling - the right wing - belongs to the Wallace collection in London. Its measurements are larger: 41x16cm (16x6.3in) As triptychs tend to be symmetrical in shape, I assume that the Angel with the Olive branch was originally also a full figure with the same panel size.

If I paint the Angel, I am thinking about adjusting the format so I can show the complete wings.

Susanne

moscatel

11-03-2011, 11:25 AM

Susanne, thank you for the information. Very interesting to read. I'm drawing the angel already. I must check if I could still fit the full wings. Could be cool to see the entire wings.

Interesting the original size: 10x16cm. So very small!
I'm doing by change quite small too 22x27 cm. (about 9x11")

stapeliad

11-03-2011, 03:57 PM

Thanks Becc!
Nance it would be great to have you join us.

Magical, thanks very much for posting this info. :)
Edgah, glad to have you with us!

Susanne, I think your full-wing composition would work very well. As far as my drawing, I will probably do an ink drawing and work over that.

Oilybloke

11-04-2011, 02:24 PM

Glad to see more on board :thumbsup:

Now i just have to figure out how to draw a perfect arch:crying: , interesting palette on st johns , base colour being orange

stapeliad

11-04-2011, 02:48 PM

Now i just have to figure out how to draw a perfect arch

When you figure it out please let me know how! :wave:

I think I'd plot out points and measure them, then connect them, say a prayer and hope for the best!

moscatel

11-04-2011, 05:12 PM

Now i just have to figure out how to draw a perfect arch:crying: , .. ..and the oval of the vase :confused:

.., say a prayer and hope for the best! That's what I use the most of the times :thumbsup:

Oilybloke

11-05-2011, 09:12 AM

Feels like being back at school , working angles and arcs , piece of string tried to a pencil works well for arch , just 20 more equations to solve:lol:

moscatel

11-05-2011, 10:08 AM

Angel with an Olive Branch and Still Life wip's.
I'm doing both simultaneously.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Nov-2011/50779-95_MOM_WC_Nov2011Memling.jpg

The first one measures: 27x22 cm (about 11x9") canvas: double oil primed, just a pencil drawing so far
The second 20x30 cm (about 8x12") surface: wood, imprimatura: Transparent Red Oxide

The still life has an other sketch underneath so I was trying to cover the board with a heavier paint. Not the way to do the copies of the Old Masters, but that what I did. :crying: :( This time I'm doing quite a mess with the Transparent Red Oxide underlayer! Oh, and I found a perfect wall color from my tube colection: Unbleached Titanium Dioxide with a little mix of Raw Sienna, so that's the other color that you see.

Marigold

11-05-2011, 10:54 AM

Hello Moscatel,

You got to work fast! The angel drawing is looking good! The still life looks very sketchy right now. It will be interesting to see how the bright red of your underpainting will influence the following layers esp. for the goblet. Memling certainly did a great job painting the sheen of the metal, this will be a challenge for sure. You did a good job on the arch, it is nice and even. Maybe check the base of the arch (where the curve begins) - it seems slightly higher on the right side.

I am starting the drawing for the angel today. I will reconstruct a full figure with the help of the second angel from the Wallace. Plus I went to my local art store and bought several sheets of real 24 carat gold leaf! :heart:

I also got a 35x15cm panel (14x6in), on which I will put a very smooth glue-chalk ground. Then I will do an underpainting in egg tempera, with the background areas painted in red earth and the angel in grisaille. Then I'll apply the gold leaf to the background and finish the angel in oil paint. I hope it will work! I have never used gold leaf or tempera.

Susanne

stapeliad

11-05-2011, 11:18 AM

Moscatel, you are off to an amazing start. Makes me want to use TRO for underpaintings instead of burnt umber!

GOLD LEAF INFO is in this thread. (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585012&highlight=gold+leaf)

I have never used gold leaf but to those of you who are so ambitious, good luck!!

Oilybloke

11-05-2011, 12:04 PM

Great start Moscatel , two subjects as well :thumbsup:

Hi Marigold looking forward to your gold leaf application , i have some but never tried it

here is my sketch on linen , i think its 16x12 , cup drawn first on a straight line the arch went on after just to keep the proportion correct http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Nov-2011/185744-IMG_0112.jpg

stapeliad

11-05-2011, 02:34 PM

Leigh it looks great! What did you use for the initial sketch? The arch is well done. :thumbsup:

Magical_Realist

11-06-2011, 12:27 AM

Magical, thank you for all this input. I will try to find out what material may be used for the underdrawing with hatched strokes (charcoal is too dark I think?).

I use waterproof India ink and a very fine sable brush (or a dip pen if I'm working very small). The lines stay clearly visible under the paint, that way.

I think I'm going to join in on this challenge, but I haven't yet decided which work I want to attempt--Memling did some wonderful portraits that I'd love to try. Right now, the top contender is this young man:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Nov-2011/128279-memling-hans_portrait-of-a-young-man_1485-90_3.jpg

And here's another one I like a lot, despite (or maybe because of? :lol:) the amount of architectural detail:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Nov-2011/128279-memling-hans_maartin-van-newenhoven_1480s.jpg

Oilybloke

11-06-2011, 07:57 AM

Cheers jessica , charcoal pencil and my finger

this is where i am , blocked some colours in to get a good base tone
Pallette so far

Unbleached tit Dioxide (beige )
Cad orange
Vandyke brown
Cad red
Ivory black
Transparent gold ochre

no white !!!!

Increased values overall will be fun http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Nov-2011/185744-IMG_4260.jpg

Mac always shows my photos to correct colour and when i upload on here it seem to change them a lot :confused:

moscatel

11-06-2011, 11:03 AM

Susanne, thanks for the tip for my arc! Needs to be fixed.

I'm glad you found 24K gold. I still need to go and buy some but for other paintings because I see it very complicated to make the angel with gold leaf because of the olive branch. Will the olive branch then come over the gold leaf because certainly it is impossible to fix it so that gold leaf goes only in between the leaves and olives, right? But then again I know that gold leaf can be painted (partially) over with oils.

Jessica, thanks for your comment!

Bettythecat, you have such a great start for your still life. It's actually looking really good already! Thanks for posting wip's.

Marigold

11-06-2011, 12:20 PM

Hello Magical, so glad you will paint along. This will be fun. You are right, Memling has outstanding portraits. They are so detailed and authentic. Yesterday I discovered the phantastic "Portrait of an old Man" on the Website of the Metropolitan Museum... but painting all those hairs, the stubble of the beard, and the wrinkles.... phew!

Thanks for your advice with the ink. I will try that. I have found a bottle of sepia ink in my supplies that I have never used. This is why I love those projects, I always get to try new methods and materials.

Hello Leigh, I don't know how you do it! No matter what the reference, your copies look always stunning from the very first stages!

Hello Moscatel. I have my drawing of the angel ready, but the image uploader doesn't work... again! :envy::mad: I will show it as soon as I can.

About the Gold Leaf: I asked the lady from my art supply store for advice, she is very knowledgeable. She told me I could apply the leaf using gilding milk: by painting the milk with a brush just onto the areas where the gold will go. It gets tacky in 15 minutes and then I can apply the gold leaf. The gold will only adhere to the places where I applied the milk first, so it should be no problem to leave out small areas (like the leaves), I should be able to brush off the gold there. She said she used to work with a conservator, and he used this method for small golden details, like halos or rays in painting of saints.
This is NOT the method in Jessica's link. Her link explains the real serious gilding with bole (red clay). I was told this is difficult to learn, takes much longer to dry, and needs specialist equipment, like a squirrel brush, and polishing euqipment. The difference is that there, the gold is applied to a clay that is elastic and allows for polishing of the gold, the results will have perfect gloss. My simpler method with gilding milk will not allow polishing, so the surface will stay a slighly duller gold. That way at least it will not compete with the angel. I hope it will work.

What will you use - do you have golden paint?

Hello Jessica, thanks for the link on gold leaf. I am looking forward to your lady, she is lovely and the red velvet on her dress will be exciting to paint.

Susanne

Oilybloke

11-06-2011, 12:40 PM

Thankyou Moscatel :thumbsup:

Thankyou Marigold , I'm looking forward to your post .

The fun part of doing these studies is working out how they put these paintings together , trying to guess what process they did first in colour / values / measurement / just getting a glimpse of there skill is worth the effort and you take so many things to improve your our art

ill shut up now :lol:

Marigold

11-06-2011, 12:54 PM

Here is my drawing. I did it freehand and it drove me crazy... I have got to practice my drawing! It was impossible to get the likeness and now my angel llooks like a girl :D Anyway that is how I will paint it (plus add a bit of space on top and bottom to have the original aspect ratio). I will still have to figure out the shading, because I borrowed the bottom from the Wallace version but there the direction of the light is inversed.

@Moscatel: I see you have more olives than I :D

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling02.jpg

Marigold

11-06-2011, 01:21 PM

The fun part of doing these studies is working out how they put these paintings together , trying to guess what process they did first in colour / values / measurement / just getting a glimpse of there skill is worth the effort and you take so many things to improve your our art

ill shut up now :lol:
Yes indeed, the insights into the different paiting processes are very educational, and it is true since I have been participating in the MOM projects no two paintings were created using the same process.

The other part that I find absolutely fascinating is to really pick apart the different "visual languages" of the masters, which are ultimately languages of beauty. Isn't it fascinating how many different ways there are to make a beautiful and meaningful painting of a person? It is so easy to assume once I have understood some important principle related to portrait painting (for example), that it is easy to assume all painters must have used it the same way: but nothing could be further from the truth. But that doesn't mean that "There are no rules" - there is just a vast vocabulary to learn and to choose from. I think the MOM projects are a great opportunity to expand my painter's vocabulary and I think the result will be a much larger feedom of expression in my own painting.

Susanne

friesin

11-06-2011, 01:55 PM

ooohhh, what a wonderful thread I found with this one!

May I still join in? As fas as I understood it is about painting from an old master, i.e. Memling during these 2 months. And it is about trying to paint as much like him as possible, right?:clap:
Well that's something I would love to try because for some reason I cannot explain that technique has found my interest latley. It seems thrilling !!

That angel, the still life and the madonna do certainly appeal to me.....

Btw: I suppose the very first drawing was done with a silver pen, wasn't it?

Oilybloke

11-06-2011, 02:28 PM

Yes indeed, the insights into the different paiting processes are very educational, and it is true since I have been participating in the MOM projects no two paintings were created using the same process.

The other part that I find absolutely fascinating is to really pick apart the different "visual languages" of the masters, which are ultimately languages of beauty. Isn't it fascinating how many different ways there are to make a beautiful and meaningful painting of a person? It is so easy to assume once I have understood some important principle related to portrait painting (for example), that it is easy to assume all painters must have used it the same way: but nothing could be further from the truth. But that doesn't mean that "There are no rules" - there is just a vast vocabulary to learn and to choose from. I think the MOM projects are a great opportunity to expand my painter's vocabulary and I think the result will be a much larger feedom of expression in my own painting.

Susanne

Well said Susanne better than i could down in words:thumbsup:

I love your started painting , great sketch and nice to see you have used some thought to create a full version , looking forward to more infact looking forward to everbodys :D

Oilybloke

11-06-2011, 02:29 PM

pcj

11-06-2011, 03:08 PM

Hello Everyone,

I'd like to try this one - 'Portrait Of An Old Woman'
Is that alright Jessica ?
{peculiar title - she doesn't look all that old !}

Patricia

Marigold

11-06-2011, 03:26 PM

saintlukesguild

11-06-2011, 03:52 PM

Jessica, thanks for posting the unfinished panel, this is very instructional. I am wondering why the shadows in the under drawing are hatched. I have seed this several times in other paintings from the period. Is the ground so absorbing that the oil color can not be blended? Or is the underdrawing done in a non-oil medium, like tempera? Do you know anything about that?

The lady in the red dress is lovely.

Susanne

It was most likely done by charcoal poncing (or "pouncing," - can't remember the spelling) where the drawing was done on paper in meticulous detail to get it right, pin holes were punched in the lines, the drawing affixed to the prepared support, and a pad dipped in charcoal powder patted on the pin holes. When the paper was removed, the charcoal dots were connected with pen and ink (likely oak gall ink, brown when new, but turning black over time.) The hatching was indication of where the deepest shadows would be.

This was the usual foundation on which tempera painting was done, and transfered to oil painting. It is said that Michaelangelo used the same technique for his "cartoons" on the Sistine ceiling before applying fresco paint.

I experimented with this, once, and briefly. Not as simple as it sounds. The size of the pin hole is critical to absorb a workable dot, and not a gross blob. And the pad requires some thought - my square of inside sweat shirt didn't work very well. Perhaps rouge/powder puffs from the make up counter?

Anyway, my historical note... from memory of extensive reading. Sorry, can't supply any citations.

pcj

11-06-2011, 04:32 PM

Hello patricia :wave: so nice to have you painting along!
Interesting choice. Many of Memlings portraits look not elegant or pretty but so very serious, don't they? This woman is a good example. Must be his northern temperament. Look, I fould a very high def version:
http://www.museothyssen.org/microsites/prensa/2005/Memling/Htm/Imagenes%20Memling.htm

Hello friesin: come join us, the more the merrier. If you want to know more about the Painting with the Masters projects, check out the sticky "Painting with the Masters 2011 index" on top of the Oils forum to find the other projects of this year. They were all interesting and everyone is always welcome to paint along - esp. if you are interested in the techniques it will be great to have your contribution :)

Hi Susanne :wave:
Wow, thanks for that high res' version, it's going to be
a great help to me.
It's nice to be back here isn't it ? - haven't been here since Cabanel
and Sorolla.
Yes, his portraits are excessively serious - but this one seems to have
a more thoughtful, pondering and less rigid look than the others.
You have a nice start to yours, did you use charcoal ?
Patricia

Marigold

11-07-2011, 04:09 AM

It's nice to be back here isn't it ? - haven't been here since Cabanel and Sorolla.
Yes, I have been looking forward to it. Did you ever finish your Cabanel? That was an ambitious project. :) Mine is not finished, it could still use a couple of layers - but I think I might wait until spring as the daylight is pretty much gone now in off-work hours.

You have a nice start to yours, did you use charcoal ?Thank you! No, I used pencil and this is only a preparatory drawing on paper.

I will need a couple of days to prepare my panel. I have been experimenting with a glue-chalk ground and I think this will be perfect for this project, it makes an extremely smooth surface. Then I will transfer the drawing to the panel, probably with a light-colored pastel on the back of the paper. Then I will carefully redraw the details in ink. At least that’s the plan.

It was most likely done by charcoal poncing (or "pouncing," - can't remember the spelling) where the drawing was done on paper in meticulous detail to get it right, pin holes were punched in the lines, the drawing affixed to the prepared support, and a pad dipped in charcoal powder patted on the pin holes. When the paper was removed, the charcoal dots were connected with pen and ink (likely oak gall ink, brown when new, but turning black over time.) The hatching was indication of where the deepest shadows would be.

Hello Luke, I love that you tried charcoal pouncing for yourself. :) However I think there are more convient and more precise transfer methods, so there is no need for this complicated process today; apart from historical interest. I was surprised by the way that charcoal pouncing was used for very small works - I did know it was used for large fresco paintings, but I did not think it would be precise enough for small sizes.
(In this article from the National Gallery London I read that pouncing dots were found in the early panel paintigs of Raphael, which are as small as 7x7in. http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/technical-bulletin/roy_spring_plazzotta2004)

Thanks for the small bit about oak gall ink. It is always interesting to learn about the origins of artist’s materials. I had no idea ink was made from oak galls, or that sepia ink was actually made from the ink of the cuttlefish as I read yesterday.

Susanne

friesin

11-07-2011, 06:24 AM

So nice I may join the project!

I am fond of that angel (well, Xmas is not too far anymore :D ), and of the still life as well. hmmm... Maybe I ll do both of them. I guess there will be a lot of time waiting the layers to dry, so why not try 2?

The first problem has already occurred: findig a panel of that small size....:(
What a start :lol:

moscatel

11-07-2011, 06:27 AM

I am still doing slowly and surely the Cabanel Venus too, so I have actually three paintings here in front of me.
Susanne, have you tried natural light bulb for winter time work! I have. It's magical. Works fine for me. They can be quite pricy, at least here they are. Need to buy a new one tho.
I like your drawing of the angel. It is looking really good. I know, it is annoying to draw, so complicated! The olive branch is demanding to draw/paint (not to mention the gold leaf for the olive area).
@Moscatel: I see you have more olives than I :DI've heard someone once said it's not the quantity that counts, but the quality. ;)

What will you use - do you have golden paint?No, I don't. I decided to use just color (ochre, yellow) as I see the olive area very complicated for gold leaf.

About the Gold Leaf: I asked the lady from my art supply store for advice, she is very knowledgeable. She told me I could apply the leaf using gilding milk: by painting the milk with a brush just onto the areas where the gold will go. It gets tacky in 15 minutes and then I can apply the gold leaf. The gold will only adhere to the places where I applied the milk first, so it should be no problem to leave out small areas (like the leaves), I should be able to brush off the gold there.Cool! That's how they do it! :crossfingers: Would have never thought! Clever! I'm glad your art supply store has such a knowledge.

Patricia, Oooo, how serious face. I like! :thumbsup:
Susanne, thanks for the big version of Patricia's choice. It is interesting to see near how the drape has been painted. Beautiful!

May I still join in? As fas as I understood it is about painting from an old master, i.e. Memling during these 2 months. And it is about trying to paint as much like him as possible, right?:clap: Yes, it should be the idea but like myself I already have ruined the beginning with the first underlayer and mine isn't coming along as the old masters did it. But I'm still painting it ... also using some razor blade to the worst areas. But it's not helping much in this case. Today I start painting by trying to darken the hair of the angel to get to see the value of the face better.

Jessica, have you started with your angel yet?

moscatel

11-07-2011, 06:34 AM

I am fond of that angel (well, Xmas is not too far anymore :D ), Most of us are doing the angel. Such a beautiful painting.

It's the first time I hear about this painter and his work! So many things you learn in these challenges.

Oilybloke

11-07-2011, 11:05 AM

i think its all in place now

Now its countless layers to bring depth , good fun thouhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Nov-2011/185744-IMG_4263.jpg

friesin

11-07-2011, 12:40 PM

well done, betty !

I wonder how you know how many layers are enough .... Just try out and see what you think about it?
(sorry for that maybe stupid question, but I am a newby with the layering technique in the old masters' style :o)

moscatel

11-07-2011, 12:51 PM

Betty, you have done great work with the still life.

I wonder how you know how many layers are enough .... Just try out and see what you think about it?
(sorry for that maybe stupid question, but I am a newby with the layering technique in the old masters' style :o):thumbsup: Good question!
In seven layer Flemish Technique normally 2 under umber layers are enough, but you are correct, you do as many as needed to get the result that you like. :clap: You can also use the next under umber layer to make corrections. It's easier at under layer face to make corrections, I believe.

Oilybloke

11-07-2011, 01:26 PM

Thankyou guys:thumbsup:

I think as far as layering goes its as muscatel said , this is where studying the objects in a separate sections comes in to play

The gold is old because it has a rough surface where gold as we know it today is very machined also the colour of colour varies quite a bit as we know

Study the shadows and what colours affect that shadow

Is it masonry or a painted wall two totally different effects

Take every sections and study its value and before you know it you will unlock a great painting

i know this is all a bit obvious but painting is not as complicated once you studying the connections

friesin

11-07-2011, 02:11 PM

*arrgh*
*e-hem*
*coughing*

I tried to draw the angel, and although I tried to make it easy it nearly drove me crazy, too:evil: All those olive leaves !!!!! Those pleats !! Not to mention the fist with its fingers:evil:
The angel is looking so pretty, yet somehow stiff! I had to work hard not to give him too much expression, but nevertehless he looks like a metrosexual :lol:
here is my drawing:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Nov-2011/90406-MemlingEngel1.JPG
Should I let the olive branch grow longer?

Marigold

11-07-2011, 02:57 PM

Hello Friesin,
You seem to have a very free and simplified drawing style, which is good. For Master studies however, I find it even more important than usual that the drawing is correct, because those studies are much more fun and more rewarding if the likeness is there. I use a grid for most master studies - or otherwise take a lot of time measuring... and keep an eraser ready. Details (fingernails, locks of hair etc) are less important than general lines and angles. I'd mainly check the nose and mouth, the folds at the right elbow, and the hand (the palm is too small)... and yes the olive branch ;).

Susanne

Edgah

11-08-2011, 02:50 AM

Righto. Here is my drawing. It took many pencil studies of the angel before I even touched the canvas. This is charcoal and pencil fixed on a 12" x 16" canvas. However, it's still only about 95% done.

My respect for the old masters has grown considerably through preparing this drawing. Their work is nothing short of amazing.

Marigold

11-08-2011, 03:46 AM

Edgah, this is an excellent drawing. Made me notice a couple of small mistakes in mine. I am glad to see that you also made a version with full wings. I like your shape of the right wing better than mine, I might steal that ;) The hand seems a bit small to me but not dramatically. How are you planning to continue after the drawing is finished?

bettythecat, you keep going! Your painting is looking good, I like the way you painted the glow from the metal reflecting into the left floor shadow, this is good attention to detail!

Susanne

Edgah

11-08-2011, 04:17 AM

Yeah I've noticed the hand problem after I fixed the drawing. I guess the next step after the drawing would be an umber layer or two. I haven't quite made up my mind.

friesin

11-08-2011, 06:44 AM

hello again:wave:

Thank you, Susanne, for your advice!
I suppose you mean the angel's right elbow, not the one that is on the spectator's right side, don't you?

As this little drawing is on paper cardborad, I already fixed it with gesso :( . So I will try to do my correction with charcoal over the gesso. Hope it works...

A question to everyone here: are you going to paint your version in the original size?

stapeliad

11-08-2011, 07:06 AM

Hi everyone,
I had some Cat Issues last night (my cat is sick) so I will catch up on everything this afternoon. I am *dying* to get started on my own, was planning to last night and will try again tonight.

Oilybloke

11-08-2011, 12:45 PM

Nice to see more sketches posted

friesin nice start as marigold said a few errors need attending to :thumbsup:

Edgah , great start and a confident sketch and alterations can be done with the brush :thumbsup:

Sorry about the pic it was taken at night under poor lighting , give general feel thouhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Nov-2011/185744-IMG_4300.jpg

moscatel

11-09-2011, 01:11 AM

Bettythecat, sorry for my late reply.. your trompe l'oeil is looking really good! :clap:

Nancy, How's your trompe l'oeil vase going? Already began ? :)

Jessica, I hope your cat is better, I love cats :cat:, can't have one because of allergies.

Edgah, good drawing going on :thumbsup:, you have done a lot of detail in folds and everything!

Friesin, good drawing as well :thumbsup:, Susanne gave you already some comments. It's difficult to say if to draw a bigger branch or not. I think I made it big: it's "growing over the canvas". It also depends if your canvas is all that is shown in the photo or is there more space existing above the angel. Difficult to say... maybe you just see what you like best yourself.

I'm continuing with the vase today and gold is difficult to paint. Everything is hard with these old masters pieces, I wonder how did they do it really!

Edgah

11-09-2011, 02:40 AM

Thanks for the comments everyone. Looks like all is coming along well.

I have completed the first paint layer. First by oiling the canvas and scraping down with a blade. I then proceeded to thin down half a pinky's worth of Burnt Umber with some low odor turps. I've read in this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141627&page=2&highlight=dead+layer+flemish) that damar varnish is used in the under layers along with turpentine. However, due to circumstances this is unavailable to me at the moment and I have done without it.

Here is my progress.

Marigold

11-09-2011, 04:53 AM

Hello Edgah, your painting is lovely, looks like you know what you are doing. I would not worry about the missing Dammar. As far as I know, the presence of resins as essential ingredient in the Paintings of Flemish (and other) Masters it is still a matter of much debate. I have even heard excessive use of resins blamed for the bad state of many 19th century paintings compared to older works. You should be fine with only oil.

I gather from your posts that you want to use the method taught by Antonov? Will you do a full grisaille (of dead layer as Antonov says) including for the background? I am asking because I wonder how much a "grey" underlayer might influence the gold color, and if this cooling effect is something you want.

(I love Antonovs paintings, but looking at original Dutch paintings from the Golden Age or before, none of the ones I have seen suggested to me that they had been painted that way.)

Hello bettythecat, seeing your WIP yesterday I was baffled by the strong 3d effect that you managed to create - a true trompe l'oeuil! All you need to do now is work on the surface textures and you'll have it.

Hello Friesin A question to everyone here: are you going to paint your version in the original size?
Smaller! I want a challenge :) ... and I have always been attracted to the intimate quality of those miniature oils; I always wanted to find out how they were done, so here's my chance. I paint on 35x15cm but that's for a full figure.

Susanne

Edgah

11-09-2011, 05:49 AM

I have very little idea what I'm doing, this will be the first time I've attempted a proper layering technique. As mentioned somewhere in the thread regarding 'flemish techniques', the evidence that these were the techniques used in the days of Van Eyck, Memling etc. is poor, and more likely techniques of the 19th century. In any case, I have over a week to decide what I'm going to do next. Maybe I should get my hands on some oil of spike.

EZ-ED

11-09-2011, 08:03 AM

My copy of Memling's Tommaso-Portinarihttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Nov-2011/121150-Toammaso72.jpg

Oilybloke

11-10-2011, 11:12 AM

Little bit more done , awfully quiet in here http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2011/185744-IMG_4434_2.jpg

stapeliad

11-10-2011, 11:20 AM

Oh my gosh Leigh, this is soooo super! :clap:

Oilybloke

11-10-2011, 11:27 AM

Cheers Jessica , long way to go yet , getting that gold look is quite frustrating :lol:

pcj

11-10-2011, 04:56 PM

Hello Everyone,
Here's my first sketch of Memling's 'Portrait Of An Old Woman'.
Numerous mistakes and I'm finding very difficult to get the
expression correctly.
I should have practiced on paper before going straight to the canvas !
Patricia

Edgah

11-10-2011, 05:02 PM

Yeaaaahhh, looking good betty, or leigh. Sketch looks good Patricia. How tough are the features on these old buggers?

moscatel

11-10-2011, 09:45 PM

Little bit more done , awfully quiet in here Yes it is, it's only 6 or 7 people doing this wonderful challenge so far. Love your process tho! Thanks for posting. I'll try to post mine when I get some daylight.
----
edited: Gold is tough indeed .. we should find some tutorial on how to make gold.

Marigold

11-11-2011, 03:36 AM

EZ, the portrait is beautiful and very recognizable, unfortunately on my screen the photo shows face and hands only - the rest is too dark.

bettythecat, we'll keep watching :thumbsup: . I am waiting for those little color accents on the snake and the jewels. I can't paint much during the week but I'll be back over the weekend.

patricia, I think this will become an engaging portrait, you caught her expression beautifully. How small is your canvas?

Moscatel, Making gold... age-old quest :D , good luck to you

Susanne

friesin

11-11-2011, 04:03 AM

having been absent for 2 days I am surprised how far everyone has come !

@ Betty: WOW! This is wonderful !! Do you declare it finished ?
@ Patricia: Super sketch of the old woman :thumbsup:I am looking forward to see her in colour!
@ Edgah: how far is your angel now?
@ EZ: Another fine portrait ! Unfortunately I also can only see the face and a hand...maybe my monitor?

I have finished my sketch on the angel, have tried to add your corrections and have prepared the paper card. Now its up to me to start the first underdrawings. I'm quite excited !

moscatel

11-11-2011, 04:59 AM

Moscatel, Making gold... age-old quest :D , Indeed. :lol::lol::lol:

Ok, now back to a serious stuff. This isn't really done by glazing layers, (i wouldn't know how to apply it to this vase) instead at this stage I'm just adding layers of paint. Hard enough for me. So, I'm not following the Old Masters here, but I post it anyway. I still see there some symmetry issues .. must measure it better.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Nov-2011/50779-taulu311_trompeoleilvasel_wip2_3.jpg

20x30cm, wood .. lots of layers away still, looks like a copper thing now and much time to think about gold ...:rolleyes:

Marigold

11-11-2011, 05:52 AM

Hi Moscatel, it is coming along nicely and I like the simplicity and decorative nature of the subject. Maybe the vertical wall could be a little darker compared the the horizontal sill and the frame where it gets hit by the light, that might give you better contrast and increase the trompe-l'oeuil effect.

This isn't really done by glazing layers, (i wouldn't know how to apply it to this vase) instead at this stage I'm just adding layers of paint

I found a very high-res version, it reveals that in fact Memling did the modeling of the form with hatched strokes over a fairly light-colored ground, rather than glazing. Possibly the final gold-color might be a yellow glaze. Not that this will make it much easier.... this type of hatching totally mystifies my, I don't know how it can be humanly possible to make such fine strokes with oil paint and a brush :confused:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9424/pic0049nn4.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Nov-2011/84057-Memling-goblet-detail.jpg

moscatel

11-11-2011, 06:15 AM

Oh my goodness, such a detail, thanks for finding this photo :clap: and sharing it :thumbsup: Now I can see how Memling did his gold! I'm thinking that maybe it is a certain kind of brush that makes the hatch lines.. but honestly I didn't know the Old Masters did their paintings by hatching!:eek:

stapeliad

11-11-2011, 09:50 AM

I am just popping in to say I am looking at and reading everyone's posts, I am absolutely blown away by the work going on in here. Thank you all for participating.

I have to finish my swap portrait first, then i will be full speed ahead on Memling. Have been waiting to paint that girl since July. :D

EZ-ED

11-11-2011, 02:56 PM

thanks for the complements; FYI here is a copy of the downloaded source:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Nov-2011/121150-Tommaso-Portinaricrop72.jpg

NancyMP

11-11-2011, 11:52 PM

For those who asked, I haven't got the time right now to start the vase tromp d'oeil. I'm in the middle of the portrait swap, and need to produce some painted Christmas ornaments, plus some small paintings, for the December gallery show.

Besides, I need Leigh (betty the cat) to show me how :lol: -- Leigh, you're doing it beautifully! As you usually do!

What a fantastic array of work has been produced for the Memling thread just since the 1st! Keep it up; I love it!

moscatel

11-12-2011, 03:16 AM

For those who asked, I haven't got the time right now to start the vase tromp d'oeil.Busy times. Hope to see you later!

I took a photo of my angel. 22x27cm (about 9x101/2") When working on the TRO under layer the olive branch turned out quite ok, but the rest of the angel looked terrible, I believe because of the wrong brush choice. I've been trying to correct it with white as the photo shows. No glazing here (unfortunately) just thick layers of paint.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Nov-2011/50779-taulu310_angel_wip4.jpg

I'm wondering about the face .. how are the distances of the eyes, nose, mouth etc.? The chin is probably too low position. I'm trying to get him/her(?) look like the ref. Will try to work on the face more...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Nov-2011/50779-taulu310_angel_wip4_facedetail.jpg

Going to have a little break of the angel and still life now but will be back later, I hope.

Thanks for looking!

friesin

11-12-2011, 05:06 AM

I've been trying to correct it with white as the photo shows. No glazing here (unfortunately) just thick layers of paint.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Nov-2011/50779-taulu310_angel_wip4.jpg

Moscatel, this may not be the original technique, but I must admit that your angel looks better to me than Memling's -- if I may say so :o

friesin

11-12-2011, 05:28 AM

after struggling with the consistency of my colour (I didn't achieve a really transparent layer) this is my first step.
First layers on the dress, the wings and the body. The hands however are still too white. Shadows will come in one of the next layers.
What do you think, is that the right approach? Being somewhat uncertain about the layering technique of those times I simply adopted my watercolour experiences to my oils - of course I do know that in watercolour the paper's white plays a most important roll which is quite different with oils.

Here it is

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Nov-2011/90406-MemlingEngel2.JPG

Oilybloke

11-12-2011, 09:19 AM

Thanks peeps for your encouraging words:thumbsup:

Moscatel , both coming along nicely , this gold lark is a real head scratcher but we will get it I'm sure. The angel is looking good once you refine i think its going to get the effect your after be patient :thumbsup:

Marigold thanks for the hi res image its helping me a lot :thumbsup:

EZ-ED , great work:thumbsup:

Friesin , don't be scared to lay the paint on , work on your darks first this being a great way to map values , good stuff:thumbsup:

heres my progress , still struggling with colours but i will sus it out if it kills mehttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Nov-2011/185744-IMG_4446_2.jpg

Marigold

11-12-2011, 09:41 AM

Hello Jessica and Nancy :wave:, thanks for letting us know that you are following along even if you didn't get around to painting yet because of your competing project :D. Your comments and encouragement are much appreciated.

Hello Moscatel :wave:, I do love your angel! Please don't change the face, he has such a sweet expression and actually I think you are pretty close. I like the effect the underpainting has, it will add to the depth of the figure. The color is more intense than what I would use for underpainting but it does not look bad at all. I would not worry about glazing - it is a white dress, so what's to glaze? My thought is that he probably painted it in a fairly direct fashion.

Hello Friesin :wave:, are you altogether new to oil painting? If you want to learn a layering technique maybe Memlings angel is not the best example :(because he is basically black and white and has no color glazes. Gosh there are so many different ways to make a layered painting. A "glazing technique" usually means that light and dark are established first in an underpainting, which is in most cases monochrome and opaque, not as transparent as your angel now. Then a transparent color is laid over it, so light and shadow can shine through the color layer from below. Then, the deepest shadows are reinforced with dark glazes and the highlights are reestablished with opaque color. You can let a white ground shine through in your lights (it would be good to have a very smooth white ground - like a panel prepared with traditional gesso which feels almost like paper!). But not many painters do it, and it is more common to paint the lights with white or with a color mixed with white. Even in Van Eycks time I would argue that at least the skin was build up with color that had white in it and was not fully transparent. Shadows are often painted first, because thin shadows with no white recede to the background better than shadows which are painted on top of a lighter ground. Maybe that helps a bit, anyway don't let me confuse you :D and have fun with the painting!
What did you use to thin your paint? Try to use as little medium as possible.

Okay guys believe it or not I am still working at my underdrawing... but I promise I will have the underpainting posted by the end of the weekend.

Susanne

Mariah1st

11-12-2011, 10:34 AM

Trying to find out the real size of above work! Nicely painted btw ;-)!

Is anybody planning to use a wooden panel?

friesin

11-12-2011, 11:51 AM

hello Susanne,
thank you for your patience and for your helpful questions and advice!

Well, I am not new to oil colours nor to layering in oil colours, but I surely am new to painting a picture entirely in (oil) layers :o

So thats why I'm so fascinated by this thread: I want to try.
Just now it works like "try and error" for me :lol:
The medium I have been using for my angel is something siccative, produced by guardi (Medium 3).
Having read that the old masters used their oil colours the way we use our watercolours seemed quite descriptive to me ;) , but of course that did not really work with white -- I should have known that in advance!:evil:

In the moment this sort of painting is somewhat unsatisfying for me: painting a layer and then waaaaaaaaaaaaiting until it is dry :eek: , but fascinating nevertheless. You see, I do feel ambivalent, and I want to find out where it will end :D

moscatel

11-12-2011, 11:40 PM

Friesin, thanks for commenting, I'm glad that you like it. Just keep on adding color on your angel as well (or white when white), I was and am still facing the same problem as you, I didn't know how to continue, but I keep mixing carefully and slowly adding color. The medium that you are using I'm not familiar with. I'm adding stand oil..

Betty cat, .. gold lark .. Yeah, we will get it eventually! I have already painted it once more according to Susanne's wonderful high res pic. and it works like magic. :crossfingers: Thanks for commenting. Yours is looking beautiful! :clap:

Susanne, thanks for the comments. Ok, I keep the face. Maybe H.Memling used scumbling, but I cant tell for sure. Keep working on yours, your patience is rewarded, your master copies are spectacular. We will be waiting for your under painting!

Mariah, I'm using wood on my "gold lark" (read: still life), 20x30 cm, wood is very demanding to paint on, some of my painter friends say they cant work on wood. But the final painting "shines" better on wood.

Guys, this is very unique to work together like this! Lets keep this up.

PS.Today I'm working on Venus again, my project for ever...........

Magical_Realist

11-13-2011, 03:22 PM

I can't believe how fast everyone's progressing! :clap:

I've finally got my act together and will attempt this portrait:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Nov-2011/128279-memling-hans_portrait-of-a-young-man_1485-90_3.jpg

The original is just a little bit smaller than 9 x 12" and I happened to have a 9 x 12" Gessobord panel lying around that I was probably never going to use--so that made the decision easy.:D I've given the panel a couple of coats of alkyd primer to kill the absorbency, and now I'm working on the drawing.

Marigold

11-14-2011, 02:26 PM

heres my progress , still struggling with colours but i will sus it out if it kills me It looks so deceptively simple doesn't it? But the subtlety of hue and value changes in this almost monochrome painting must be very tricky.

@Friesin: is it dry yet? :D Should be because siccative is for faster drying, I guess (hope) there is something else in this medium besides siccative which normally should be a very minor ingredient?

@Moscatel: It's great to hear you have not put away your Venus, it will be worth it I am sure, such an impressive painting (despite the "kitsch":))

@Mariah: I work on mdf panel, see below.

@Magical: this is ambitious... the format is smaller than expected. I made my own gesso panel for the first time for this project. It was a pain :D but I love the surface, smooth like paper and feels like an eggshell. I wonder - does alkyd primer make the surface more "slippery"?

I was sick on Sunday so I only have the idrawing finished. I had transferred the drawing with pastell, then drew outlines and shadows with sepia ink. It is a bit darker than I wanted, maybe I should have watered down the ink. However as I said before my smooth glue-chalk ground is wonderful for this small & detailed work. It was worth the effort to prepare my own panel. Thanks a million Jessica for uploading the unfinished Van Eyck - it helped a lot even though I could not match Van Eyck's delicate style.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling04.jpg

friesin

11-14-2011, 03:26 PM

@Susanne: what a wonderful drawing!! And very interesting to read about the self-made surface on your panel - I will keep that iun my mind - you never know;)
My painting is dry indeed :D I found out that I do feel well with that sikkative medium which not only accelerates the drying process but also makes the painting smooth and sort of shiny. I didn't know I would appreciate it as much!

I added two or three more layers on my angel, and tomorrow I am going to take a daylight photo and show it. :wave:

moscatel

11-14-2011, 05:13 PM

Susanne, your drawing looks good! Very good start for the painting. :crossfingers: Thanks for sharing the drawing tools - sepia ink sounds interesting ..

What color is the clay that you apply on the board before adding gold leaf?
(I'm reading Jessica's link of gold leaf, it's a long thread and complicated stuff to understand, so I go slow)
-------
edited: Or do you add clay at all? Is it ok to have chalk underneath gold leaf? Sorry about my confusing question, maybe when I'm done reading Jessica's link I understand better ... now back to sleep and more reading tomorrow.

Marigold

11-14-2011, 05:20 PM

I love that we are painting with a master from the 15th century because that means I get to try out some materials that I would otherwise not use. I have started an underpainting in egg tempera. I mixed 2 parts egg yolk, 1 part linseed and 1-2 parts water, plus dry pigments (I have no black, only green umber)

There's probably nothing I can do with egg tempera that I coudn't do with oil, but I was curious how tempera behaves. Also I think it goes well with the character of those northern renaissance paintings which are really more like beautifully colored drawings. I don't like the tempera paint by itself, it is kind of milky and the colors are not as deep as in oil esp. the darks. But an oil layer on top will give the brilliance that is now missing, I hope.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling05.jpg

It looks wierd right now, but I will make this more detailed and add lights as well with white tempera. I also have a red earth to underpaint the areas that will be covered with gold leaf.

@friesin and moscatel, thanks for your comments! And I am always glad to see your progress as well so keep posting! Moscatel I will write about the gilding later all I know now is that I have not bought the clay (bole) as described in Jessicas link, but some "gilding milk". It is white and looks like milk ... and I read with horror on the label that it is some kind of plastic :( Good thing I don't underpaint in oil. I will put a red earth egg tempera underlayer, just to fake the traditional look.

Edgah

11-14-2011, 06:44 PM

Great progress Susanne. Interesting to see you've taken on the egg tempera underlayer, it looks alot cleaner than mine. I'll be continuing my angel tomorrow and post a pic of it then.

friesin

11-15-2011, 07:41 AM

Susanne, your underpainting looks marvellous!
Why don't you like egg tempera? It is not as creamy as oils are, but I like the matte surface and that it dries so fast. And it is so easy to produce :)However, I haven't used it for 6 years. So this thread is giving me some good ideas ;-)

Meanwhile my angel consists of several layers, but there are still things to work on: the sleeve, his (mine quite surely looks like a man ;-))left side, his hair, the background and of course the leaves and the olives. For the background I decided to try to imitate the golden effect. Hope it will work :o
I hope to finish it this week because next Monday I will start a some days' trip to Northern Germany:D
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Nov-2011/90406-MemmlingEngel4.JPG

Marigold

11-15-2011, 04:26 PM

Thanks Edgah, looking forward to your angel I have to say I am curious to see the development of the painting according to your method.

Hi Friesin:
(mine quite surely looks like a man ;-) I say it's the lips and the eyebrows :). Mine still looks like a girl he has fuller lips and arched eyebrows. Your painting looks kind of modern, I like the red in the background.
Why don't you like egg tempera? I could potenially like it, the satin appearance and the clean strokes are delightful in their own way. However the tempera does not seem to bring out the full potential of a pigment in the way oil does, it seems to make color dull and milky instead of deep and brilliant.

Susanne

moscatel

11-16-2011, 03:58 AM

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling05.jpg

Thanks for showing this stage of your painting process. This was new to me. Reminds me of imprimatura that they put in at this same stage in 7 layer Flemish tech.. wish I tried egg tempera too, but I'm so unfamiliar with the process .. now it's too late for the ones started already. Just a crazy thought: Maybe I should start a third one :eek: of Jessica's references, a guy standing and carrying a lamb. Is anybody doing that?

Friesin, your angel is looking good. Thanks for showing. I also love to see the progresses of everyone's paintings. What my workshop teachers always said to me, is that, "you can actually try to draw also with the brush when painting, not only with the pencil when doing the pencil drawing for the painting." It can help with the final result in some cases, depends if your trying to paint with brush strokes or do some detail work, of course.:rolleyes:

Edgah

11-17-2011, 01:48 AM

Okay so jumped into the colour today. Forget the second umber layer, I felt that the first one defined the lights and darks well. Today's palette consisted of my own mix of titanium/zinc white, yellow ochre, burnt umber, prussian blue and ivory black. To be honest I'm really unhappy with the face at the moment but anyway here it is. Still got some work to do on this one later on before I let it sit again for a week.

friesin

11-17-2011, 08:31 AM

Edgah, your angel looks impressing ! He shows a sort of innocence IMHO which gives him quite an extraordinary charm :thumbsup:

Looking at your angel I suddenly realized that mine is wearing a belt :eek::eek:.
If not I would have declared the painting finished, but now....

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Nov-2011/90406-MemmlingEngel5.JPG

Marigold

11-17-2011, 04:04 PM

Edgah, I love it! You kept the layer translucent, this is very appealing and exactely what I want to achieve as well. The only thing the face needs is a little more definition: the shadow under the lower lip and some highlights around the nose, possibly some more pink - it will look fine.

Friesin, as I said before I think your painting looks very modern, it is a fresh and interesting version which I would not necessarily think comes from a 15th century reference. I like your idea to remove the belt, maybe also add some more leaves to the olive branch I would suggest?

Maybe I should start a third one of Jessica's references, a guy standing and carrying a lamb. Is anybody doing that? This was my first selection, I think the colors are attractive, the purple is interesting probably a glaze of red and blue. It is not easy however and also the composition makes it clear that it is not a complete painting in itself but part of a triptych.

I wish I was further along but I am out on a training until Friday night so I could not, I hope my egg tempera is staying fresh in the fridge.

Patricia and Magical, how are your portraits coming along?

Susanne

friesin

11-18-2011, 05:00 AM

it is a fresh and interesting version which I would not necessarily think comes from a 15th century reference.
:lol: it's probably because I don't come from the 15 th century:lol::lol:

I had intended to send it away as a congratulation card for a birthday, but I better go on working at the belt and the branch. Not only does it need some more leaves, the leaves should be darker !
So my angel is going to be a Christmas card instead:lol:

Thank you for your advice, Susanne :angel:

Marigold

11-18-2011, 04:40 PM

I am not sure if I do the egg tempera right, and if it can safely be thinned with water. The ochre background wash can be lifted off with a wet brush :crying: Anyway, one more session with tempera tomorrow, after that I will start with oil.
Susanne

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling06.jpg

friesin

11-19-2011, 05:39 AM

Great !
I m looking forward to your next steps !

moscatel

11-21-2011, 12:37 AM

I'm just writing to say that I'm not posting any progress because I have reached the usual difficult stage with these paintings, all I can get done with angel's face is muddy paint. Until I get the face and hands looking ok, I don't see any use to do the rest of the painting. Still life isn't getting much better either. But then again, I have never finished a painting in a less time than a year, so there's nothing unusual in this.:rolleyes:

I hope everyone else is getting better work done! :thumbsup: I certainly like Susanne's progress very much. :crossfingers: (Sorry, I can't give any critics because I just don't have enough art education behind to do so. :o)

Edgah

11-23-2011, 07:07 PM

Having some trouble capturing the true colour of the painting even with photoshop. This is the third layer after some 5 or 6 hours. Hows everyone else coming along? It's awfully quiet here!

Marigold

11-24-2011, 02:09 AM

Edgah this can't be the color, he is blue! :D
I really like your WIP, this is turning into a real work of art :heart:, beautiful. I can't believe how precisely you painted the face, those strokes are tiny yet you managed to get all the tones and transitions and the strenth of each line right. I bet this alone counts for 5 out of your 6 hours. On the dress did you use any actual color at all, or just b/w?

It's awfully quiet here! I guess everyone is stuck :D which tends to happen 20 days into a project. Life gets in the middle... I'll get back to mine on the weekend.

Susanne

Edgah

11-24-2011, 05:55 AM

Thanks! You're right, the face alone took me the most time. The darks on the dress were actually done using a mix of yellow ochre, raw umber, prussian blue and ivory black to get a dark sap green hue. Here is a close-up image that was just taken with my phone. This should give you a better idea.

Marigold

11-24-2011, 07:56 PM

I finished the egg tempera underpainting. It looks kind of horrible right now, patchy and with colors and values all over the place. But I love those early stages that are somewhere inbetween drawing and painting. :o

I feel the background is a bit too dark, it is a burnt sienna pigment with a tiny bit of vermillion that I added to make it redder - they are the only reds I have. I wanted a red base for the gold leaf as I have seen it used in paintings from the period, and I hope I will be able to cover it completely with the gold leaf.

The contrast between light and shadow on the angel figure is too strong right now, this is just to define the areas and I will make it more even with the oil layers. Let me know if you see anything that needs correcting.

@moscatel, I forgot this morning - thanks for your encouraging comment, I hope you still like it if not give me a week and hopefully it will look less weird.. how about yours?

@Edgah, thanks for the info, you are right it might be a good idea to add more paints other than black and white for the dress.

Susanne

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling07.jpg

Marigold

11-25-2011, 03:04 AM

What do you think - is it better to apply the gold leaf now, or do I paint the figure in oil first?

moscatel

11-25-2011, 03:13 AM

Let me know if you see anything that needs correcting.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling07.jpg
Absolutely lovely colors with egg tempera in this angel!

I might be wrong, but I have a feeling that the hand on the chest might be just a tad too small. I made calculations of the original ref.photo offered by Jessica using a ratio 5.1 and according to the photo ref. your angel's hand from the tip of the middle finger to the sleeve should be a bit longer (a couple of millimeters) and even 1 mm wider. But I didn't do calculations of the other angel ref. where the palm of a hand is smaller (pic. below) ... so please ignore my comment if you see your angel's proportions ok. I hope the others would say their opinion as well!

It can also be that the Finnish hands are big and that makes me see the other's hands small,:D mine certainly are huge :lol:!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Nov-2011/50779-Memling_NovOilChallenge2011_2.jpg

I've been thinking a lot if my angel's hands are too small or big, and I must do the same calculation for my angel's hands today! Maybe that will resolve my hand problem... I'll be posting a progress very soon..

moscatel

11-25-2011, 03:17 AM

When I was thinking of doing this with gold leaf, I would have put the gold leaf now! With out thinking twice .. but I don't have a true knowledge. Good question! :rolleyes:

Marigold

11-26-2011, 01:50 AM

I might be wrong, but I have a feeling that the hand on the chest might be just a tad too small. Thanks for pointing that out! I made the hand longer as much as I could without repainting it, it's still slightly short but better. If you have large hands, maybe you should have been a pianist instead of a painter :music:

I found out that if I get the egg tempera to just the right consistency (rather thin), I can apply it with a pen! So I got started with some detail on the hair which might be more difficult to get in later. The attached image is the true size.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling08.jpg

When I was thinking of doing this with gold leaf, I would have put the gold leaf now! With out thinking twice .. but I don't have a true knowledge. I have no knowledge of gilding either... so I asked a friend who owns a book about icon painting :D and she said the same as you - surely not the most authoritative sources ;) but good enough for me. I will apply the gold today.

Susanne

friesin

11-26-2011, 08:25 AM

Being back from my journey I am surprised to see how far you have come !
It is so exciting to see all those efforts, to see how each painting is grdaually growing!
@Moscatel: I feel sorry for your painting process.
Well my angel is not quite exactly a copy of Memling's, but for my usual kind of painting it is more like a Renaissance painting than I had expected or even tried, so I am pretty much content :D.
Do you think you will continue your paintings - or do you think you will put them away forever?:wave:

moscatel

11-26-2011, 01:55 PM

Very little progress on the still life & had to wipe out the angel's face and hand -> will wait for two weeks (maybe more since the paint has walnut oil) to dry and will then take the spare paint away and start the face again. Meanwhile will be working more on the still life.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Nov-2011/50779-taulu310_angel_wip6.jpg

friesin, Welcome back from your trip! Answer to your quest.: I will continue painting the angel until the X-mas this year, I will be going back and forth several times with the painting process, muddy faces etc.. Sometimes the angel will look better, sometimes worst. If I cant finish now I will paint all the next year until the x-mas 2012. If not finished by then, I'll give up .. maybe.

Marigold, I used to play the piano and trust me, my teacher said "I have a huge advantage with my big hands".:D
Thanks for showing the detail of hatching, excellent detail. Hope your gold leafing is going well.

Marigold

11-26-2011, 02:38 PM

Hello friesin :wave: Welcome back and thanks for looking in! How was your trip?

Hello Moscatel :wave:
The poor angel! Was he really that bad? I didn't think so! On the other hand, now you have a more unified base which can be good for skin tones. I like what you did to the golden cup, the color looks great and the small strokes look more interesting than simple blending would.
I will continue painting the angel until the X-mas this year, I will be going back and forth several times with the painting process, muddy faces etc.. Sometimes the angel will look better, sometimes worst. If I cant finish now I will paint all the next year until the x-mas 2012. If not finished by then, I'll give up .. maybe. Good mindset for a painter! Patience and long term thinking. I still think you will finish sooner - probably January :D

The gilding is going very well. Kept me busy the whole day. You need to be very careful, but it is still easier than expected. The gold leaf comes on small sheets of wax paper. I just cut a fitting piece and then turn it over on the area where I have applied the gilding milk, then stroke the backside of the paper with a brush. It sticks very readily. If I have small holes, I can fill it in with scratch pieces of gold leaf that I can pick up with a statically charged natural hair brush.
I think I'll finish it late tonight.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling09.jpg

pcj

11-26-2011, 02:44 PM

[B]Patricia and Magical, how are your portraits coming along?

Susanne

Hi Susanne,

My portrait became a complete mess when I started painting. There was
way too much charcoal in the drawing which mixed with the paint
and I also lost the expression.
So I've started again :) absolutely minimal charcoal drawing this time
and being very careful to keep the expression. Masking tape to keep
the right and left borders of the canvas clear of paint. I didn't want
to make the face any smaller so had to crop the bottom part - even so,
I see that some of the proportions are not quite right - ah well, the
expression on the face is more important.

Hi Moscatel, Friesin, Edgah, BettyTheCat - yours are all coming very well - and fast too !

Moscatel, Susanne, I'm still working on my Cabanel [the monk] too.

Patricia

Marigold

11-26-2011, 06:01 PM

Hi Patricia:wave: - I was afraid you had given up. So glad to hear that you will continue your portrait, it is such an interesting choice. Had you done your drawing directely on the canvas? I never use charcoal for anything, I think it is just inherently messy. :D

Here's my angel:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling10.jpg

Susanne

moscatel

11-27-2011, 04:13 AM

Patricia, I'm glad to hear your still working on both the monk and the face of this challenge.:clap: I liked your drawing of the face very much.

Susanne, excellent work with the gold leaf. :clap: Your angel looks really, really good! Looks like a lot of work especially the olive area! I'm so glad to see this gold leaf progress as well. I'm also glad to hear it is not difficult, I might dare to give a try too. I believe we can paint with oils over the gold leaf in the areas where needed, like border areas and adding leaves etc., can't we?

Another thing about the gold leaf: The canvas that I'm using for my oil paintings is double oil primed, most of the times. I think I can't set gold leaf over that surface, right? I think I need to do it on wood or some other kind of surface!?

Btw, the local art supply store here in the city center sells gold leaf that is made in Germany!!:crossfingers:

friesin

11-27-2011, 05:54 AM

@Susanne & Moscatel: Yeeeaaah, my trip was wonderful.
We visited an art show with famous expessionist paintings, and I managed to drop into "my" old schools- something I had intended long ago. Two extraordinary visits :D :D

Susanne, your angel is marvellous !! I have never worked with that gold leaf although many painters do. Would you add it into future paintings as well?

My angel will be a Christmas card for someone who is interested in art history. I would not like to frame it because it is a copy, but I think as a card it will give joy to someone;)

Well, its Sunday, the first Sunday of advent, so now I am going to decorate the house a little bit instead of surfing or painting :wave:

Marigold

11-27-2011, 09:32 AM

I have never worked with that gold leaf although many painters do. Would you add it into future paintings as well? Maybe, but I am not into the decorative abstract type of paintings for which (fake) gold leaf gets used a lot. In representational painting I think it is rather difficult to incorporate gold leaf in a meaningful way that does not look like either religious art or "kitsch". Sounds like you had fun on your trip, great! :)

Your angel looks really, really good! Looks like a lot of work especially the olive area! Thanks! The "olive area" was a bit tricky, but as long as I did not cover the branch and leaves with adhesive, I could remove the gold from these ares by brushing with a natural hair brush. I could probably just have painted the branch on top of the gold: which if you look closely Memling seems to have done, don't you think? But I didn't because I'm always paranoid about losing my drawing :D and because my adhesive is acrylic.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Nov-2011/84057-Memling-branch-detail.jpg

I believe we can paint with oils over the gold leaf in the areas where needed, like border areas and adding leaves etc., can't we?
Another thing about the gold leaf: The canvas that I'm using for my oil paintings is double oil primed, most of the times. I think I can't set gold leaf over that surface, right? I think I need to do it on wood or some other kind of surface!?
I am a bit confused myself because there are so many types of gilding and gilding sizes. I do not believe that gold leaf on oil ground is a problem - after all there is a technique called oil-gilding. As far as I understand it, all you need to apply gold leaf is a surface that is reasonably smooth, non-absorbant, and somewhat sticky. (Maybe you can even use a varnish and wait for it to get tacky?) The more difficult techniques come into play when you want to burnish the gold to achieve the high gloss - I did not do that.

I have used an acrylic based gilding milk, which may not have been the best choice but is much faster than other methods - only 15mins drying time. This was okay on tempera but I would not use it on top of oil paint, instead maybe an oil-based size would be better (such as Mixtion) :confused:

A couple of links I found:
http://www.naturalpigments.com/vb/showthread.php/2868-Gold-leaf-within-oil-painting
http://www.amien.org/forums/showthread.php?2652-using-gold-leaf-over-oil-paint
http://www.amien.org/forums/showthread.php?2200-PAINTING-OVER-IMITATION-GOLD-LEAF
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487226

Susanne

stapeliad

11-27-2011, 12:18 PM

Page 6

Moscatel, your angel really looks wonderful- the thicker paint application and brush strokes give it a lot of vibrancy. Sometimes we just have to let paintings evolve the way they want to, and you are doing a fine job. :thumbsup: How interesting you are using the tempera...it isnt something I have tried myself, though now I am curious. :D

Friesin, you have made good progress on youyr angel! Check the alignment of the eyes...maybe you have already I have to catch up with this thread.

Marigold, your drawing looks really good. That delicate style must have been done with silverpoint or a pen of some kind. And it most probably took many months.

stapeliad

11-27-2011, 12:27 PM

Page 7

Edgah, your angel has such a lovely delicate face!

Susanne, I know absolutely nothing about tempera, except it has egg in it...but is it supposed to come off when touched? :confused: I hope that doesnt affect your oil layers, as your work is stunning so far.

I'm just writing to say that I'm not posting any progress because I have reached the usual difficult stage with these paintings, all I can get done with angel's face is muddy paint. Until I get the face and hands looking ok, I don't see any use to do the rest of the painting.

Moscatel, don't worry just let it dry for a while, then work back over it. These paintings weren't done quickly to begin with. We are working at a much faster pace than the original artists.

Edgah, wow! :clap: Blue or not, you have definitely gotten the delicate essence of this angel!

Susanne, I don't think the red background looks weird, I think it looks like a good idea. :thumbsup:

friesin

11-27-2011, 12:29 PM

Marigold, I agree with the matter of kitsch. That's why I have never tried that gold leaf.

Can anyone explain to me how the Old Masters achieved their blendings although they worked in layers?
I mean, when I work in layers, I can hardly blend two colours on the surface, can hardly achieve soft transitions. How did they?:confused:

Thank you, stapeliad. This has been quite a new experience for me, and I LOVED it:clap: I already think about trying another one :o

stapeliad

11-27-2011, 12:35 PM

Page 8

I found out that if I get the egg tempera to just the right consistency (rather thin), I can apply it with a pen!

Susanne, that is cool! You are sooo brave to be working with the gold leaf! Oh my gosh it looks AMAZING.

What happens with the "wasted" gold leaf? I was always curious about that. Doesn't seem like something that should be wasted.

Hi Patricia! :wave: maybe if the charcoal was giving you trouble, use ink for he drawing instead.

Moscatel, please don't give up on either of these paintings, they are both coming along so nicely!! Do not feel you have to rush.

My progress to date is pretty close to zilch, though I have a triple oil primed support ready to go. I am still in the middle of my portrait swap and must finish that before starting here. All the work in this thread is extremely inspiring, as well as impressive. You should all be very pleased with yourselves. :)

stapeliad

11-27-2011, 12:37 PM

Can anyone explain to me how the Old Masters achieved their blendings although they worked in layers? I mean, when I work in layers, I can hardly blend two colours on the surface, can hardly achieve soft transitions. How did they?

They did this in a lot of different ways, one popular technique is to go over the painted surface with a very soft brush. paint layers were very thin, and in cases of grisaille underpainting the blending transitions were done in the underpainting and would be visible through transparent paint.

Thank you, stapeliad. This has been quite a new experience for me, and I LOVED it

You are very welcome, and I am so glad it was such a positive experience for you! :D

Marigold

11-28-2011, 07:37 PM

Hello Jessica - thank you so much for checking up on us :) and cheering us on. This is really a fun challenge I wish more would participate.
I am still in the middle of my portrait swap and must finish that before starting here. Wetcanvas sure keeps you busy :D I have seen the portrait swap - outstanding work there, I am so impressed!

Can anyone explain to me how the Old Masters achieved their blendings although they worked in layers? One of the keys in my experience is to actually pre-mix more value steps on the palette. If you have not just a light and a shadow color, but at least one step inbetween, your transition will be much softer. You can still blend with the brush... but if you blend just the light and shadow color together, often the blending line gets "dirty" because the two colors might somewhat neutralise each other. You get cleaner and softer transitions by mixing an inbetween color.
Unless of course you are truely glazing with a fully transparent color over a highly finished grisaille, as jessica said, then the transitions come from the underpainting and ideally you don't have to do anything :).

Here is my start on the oil layer (face and hands). I may be in trouble: Painting oil over the egg tempera proves difficult. I thought a thin layer of oil below the paint would be enough to kill the absorbancy of the tempera, but no! My oil paint gets sucked dry. Not sure what to do, I don't want to use huge quantities of oil. Hmmm.

I chose very neutral colors because I wanted to do a vermillion glaze for cheeks etc at the end. The color is more opaque than I thought it would be, I lose the underpainting amlost completely. Otherwise I am getting along just fine with my size 0 brushes :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling11.jpg

stapeliad

11-28-2011, 07:43 PM

Susanne, for what this is worth...you may just need to add more oil. Oil over tempera was pretty standard, and the paints of the old days were much looser and runnier than the buttery paint we are used to today. It's just an idea...I'm not necessarily saying to drown your paint in oil but adding a little more shouldn't hurt.

Alessandra Kelley

11-28-2011, 08:01 PM

hi Moscatel and Susanne! :wave: great to see you jooning in this month's project!

Susanne I totally agree with your assessment...I love these galleries at the Met though. these early Renaissance works have a very magical quality to them...and the portrait miniatures are fantastic!

Here is a thread with info on painting techniques. (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936651&highlight=unfinished)

I am also re-posting my images of an unfinished panel at the Met so you cans ee what these paintings look like underneath the paint. :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2011/53789-ghent1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2011/53789-ghent2.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Nov-2011/53789-ghent3.jpg

Memling took over Van Eyck's studio. These were early days of glazing, so this would definitely be a good approach for any of these paintings. In any case, the initial drawing is very well-developed and will be an essential part of the process.

I recognize this altarpiece by Hugo van der Goes. It's not actually unfinished -- it was vandalized.

Some English person of the seventeenth century scraped off the original paintings of the Virgin and Child and Saint John the Baptist and replaced them with a wedding portrait of the murdering usurper Henry VII and his bride, the former king's niece Elizabeth of York.

Since the wedding portrait was historically worthless (being a seriously inferior work of art painted a good century or more after the event), it was itself removed, revealing the beautiful preparatory underdrawing.

An actual unfinished painting of the fifteenth century would not look like this at any stage. Still, it's good to be able to see the underlayers.

(I trained in classical Renaissance techniques and still paint primarily in egg tempera, the favored medium of the Italians but not of the northern oil painters like the ones in this thread.)

Alessandra Kelley

11-28-2011, 08:12 PM

Oh, wow, I've been reading this thread and I think I may be able to answer some of your questions. I've been a professional artist and teacher for nearly twenty years, and I specialize in egg tempera. I did paintings like this in art school to practice early Renaissance techniques!

Egg tempera does not pick up when you touch it, not if it has enough egg in it. It has a slightly waxy sheen and feel when buffed up. It's perfectly compatible with oil paints.

There is not a lot of evidence that Renaissance painters used the oil-over-egg tempera technique theorized by 20th century (non-artist) art historians. There was some experimentation, certainly, but egg tempera seems to have been the exclusive medium of the Italian Renaissance before about 1500, and oils were the only medium used in the north. They didn't mix them much.

However, the techniques work perfectly well together, so hey, go for it.

"Waste" gold leaf is called "skewings" and is saved to make shell gold, which is essentially gold leaf watercolor. Botticelli used it for some of the hair strands on his "Birth of Venus." You save the bits in something clean and dry, and eventually you mix them with a little gum arabic solution. You will get a very small amount regardless. Cenninni recommends keeping the watercolor in a little clamshell, thus the name "shell gold." In the Old Days they saved the gold to be rebeaten, but I don't know if anyone today works on a scale to make that practical.

If you have questions, ask them. I might be able to help. I think the experiments on this thread sound fascinating, and just the sort of thing I loved doing in school.

moscatel

11-29-2011, 04:55 AM

Alessandra, very interesting to read what is behind of this painting/drawing! Looked very mysterious to me, the way it has been left. Now it explains... Thanks for sharing! :)

moscatel

11-29-2011, 05:01 AM

I chose very neutral colors because I wanted to do a vermillion glaze for cheeks etc at the end. The color is more opaque than I thought it would be, I lose the underpainting amlost completely. Otherwise I am getting along just fine with my size 0 brushes :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling11.jpg
She/he is looking so good! :angel: Zero brushes? They must be very, very small! Which brand are you using for vermillion color?

friesin

11-29-2011, 05:03 AM

Thank you, Alessandra, these are interesting and useful news to me :)

moscatel

11-30-2011, 04:40 AM

One of the keys in my experience is to actually pre-mix more value steps on the palette. If you have not just a light and a shadow color, but at least one step inbetween, your transition will be much softer.I need to do that because now I'm not getting the transition in values.

Good news is my Angel has a face again. After some hard thinking I decided to wipe out all the last layers with turpentine (my angel is getting real harsh treatments :D) and I was able to save some of the face I had before and now will continue mixing a strig of values and then the hands .. giving me a true trouble. Nothing is really done yet with this painting.:wink2: But hopefully one of these Christmases ...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Nov-2011/50779-taulu310_angel_wip8.jpg

Marigold

11-30-2011, 06:45 PM

@moscatel, good to see you gave him a new face! It looks nice, you caught his serene expression well. Once the hair gets some highlights the contrast will be less and it will look softer. (I am leaving the hair for later, too - first things first!)

I got started on the robe. Added some prussian blue to the grey to make it cooler and more interesting, even though now I am bordering on baby blue... Still having trouble with the absorbancy of the egg tempera, the paint gets dry and matte within minutes. Maybe I should have applied some retouch varnish prior to starting the oil layers.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Nov-2011/84057-marigold_memling12.jpg

Marigold

11-30-2011, 06:53 PM

Oh, wow, I've been reading this thread and I think I may be able to answer some of your questions. I've been a professional artist and teacher for nearly twenty years, and I specialize in egg tempera. I did paintings like this in art school to practice early Renaissance techniques!
...
If you have questions, ask them. I might be able to help. I think the experiments on this thread sound fascinating, and just the sort of thing I loved doing in school.
Hi Alessandra :wave:, thanks for your comments, it is wonderful to have the contribution of someone who has some knowledge of art history. You don't mind if I ask some questions on egg tempera?

1) Is it true that early renaissance egg tempera painters painted in tiny hatched strokes? Why? I felt that regular brushstrokes, or thin veils/glazes worked just as well.

2) Is it normal that I have to mix new paint from my tempera and pigment every few minutes because the previous puddle is dry? How do tempera painters deal with this?

3) Do you know what is the best way to handle the strong absorbancy of the tempera when overpainting with oil?

I hope that I am not digressing too far from the subject of this thread.
Susanne

EasternArtDirect

12-01-2011, 02:29 PM

Edgah, you painted the angel's face most precisely! Great job!

Alessandra Kelley

12-02-2011, 03:05 PM

Hi Alessandra :wave:, thanks for your comments, it is wonderful to have the contribution of someone who has some knowledge of art history. You don't mind if I ask some questions on egg tempera?

1) Is it true that early renaissance egg tempera painters painted in tiny hatched strokes? Why? I felt that regular brushstrokes, or thin veils/glazes worked just as well.

From my observation in museums, yes, they were painted with tiny strokes. But the hatching was nuanced. It wasn't like woodcuts, with pen-and-ink-like lines. There's a Botticelli in the Art Institute of Chicago which up close looks like the most subtle of colored pencil drawings. The colors are soft and translucent, and the blending is amazing.

I don't know for sure why they painted like this, but I wonder if it might have something to do with brushes. Ceninno Ceninni's manual of painting from the fourteenth century describes how to make brushes, and they are round only, stuck into different-sized feather quills. If you don't have flat brushes it's hard to get a really big brush, thus harder to do big brush effects like washes and veils.

But this is only a guess. That was the way they painted. It wasn't because it was the best way. I personally approve of experimentation with different techniques, and whatever works works.

2) Is it normal that I have to mix new paint from my tempera and pigment every few minutes because the previous puddle is dry? How do tempera painters deal with this?

That's not normal. Something is up.

I make my paints from the egg yolk mix (which is already half water) and pigments which I have ground in water to about the consistency of toothpaste. It makes a paint which has a texture like light cream. I keep my paints in a ceramic palette with little cups. I usually make about a teaspoon of color at a time, much more for white, which I use a lot.

But I don't have any problem with my paints drying too fast. They will generally last all morning with no special effort to keep them wet. Are you working in a very warm place? Or might you be mixing the paint too thickly? What colors are you having trouble with?

3) Do you know what is the best way to handle the strong absorbancy of the tempera when overpainting with oil?

Egg tempera shouldn't be so absorbent as to pull in oil paint. While the chalk gesso ground traditionally used for tempera is extremely absorbent, egg tempera itself is waterproof and should have a very slightly waxy feel when dried. I find the gesso's absorbency needs careful handling on the first few layers of egg tempera, but after that one can paint much more freely (and with one's better brushes, which would be sandpapered to oblivion by the straight gesso surface).

You should be able to paint with oils over egg tempera paint as you would over a layer of dried oil paint. It should be easy, in other words, and not sinking in.

You may not have enough temper in your paints. There's a traditional test of painting a streak on glass, then peeling it off with a knife when it's dry to see if there's enough egg in the temper. (However, I've never been able to make that test work. I paint a stripe on aluminum foil, and if, when it's dry, I can rub it with a glove without any color coming off, I figure it has enough egg.)

calin4thewin

12-04-2011, 05:11 PM

For school we do these large panels with reproductions. I did that Memling chalice for mine, unfortunately I wasn't too organized with my photos at the time, so I only have a few left, none with the final...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2011/975998-012.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2011/975998-crop.jpg

After this stage I looked at the details and said hey wait a minute, this was clearly done in layers, in order to learn something I should do the same. So I painted it all over with brunaille, thinking I'd take it from there and do some color glazing. Didn't get around to it due to lack of time, but it was quite interesting to do :)

In other news: Every time I see the title of this thread, it reminds me of the Mike Hussar Painting:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Dec-2011/975998-363668282.jpg

Marigold

12-12-2011, 03:24 PM

For school we do these large panels with reproductions. I did that Memling chalice for mine, unfortunately I wasn't too organized with my photos at the time, so I only have a few left, none with the final... The combination of several small reproductions on a big panel looks interesting, although in this format it must be difficult to really focus on the different painting methods, so it will more like a fun "collage" of your favorit paintings rather than a master study, is it.

The Hussar painting is kind of annoying. Ugly for ugliness' sake... but I can't stop looking...

Alessandra, thank you so much for your answers. I like the bit about the brushes made from feather quilles. As far as the egg tempera, it looks like I did something wrong but I don't know what it is. I will have to find a book on tempera painting. The way oil and tempera combine did not convince me: next time I use egg tempera I will use it by itself. It seems to be a very interesting and beautiful medium.

Here is my finished angel. It is not perfect but I am happy with it and will have a frame made for it :) Thanks Jessica for finding this treasure.

Susanne

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Dec-2011/84057-marigold_memling14.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Dec-2011/84057-marigold_memling14b.jpg