Session 1- Composition for the Painter...discussion, assignment

[LarrySeiler]

Thanks everyone for attending tonight...some I heard thought I talk too fast, no doubt guilty as charged, I'll try to slow down a bit for next session. I tend to have much to share, much I want to give...but perhaps that's a good plug for thinking about buying the lesson from F&W when this series is done. You can then go over...over, pause, glean what you will.

Also...found myself in something of a techno drama situation...everything was on the laptop, and we had a power outage, actually an accident unfortunately that took out a power transformer shutting power down to several communities. There was no problem connecting to Go To Meeting for me prior in my getting ready for this...but of course, night of all nights you know how its going to go! So...for whatever reason, I had a block to accessing my email account and accessing my link provided.

So...like a crazy person I'm running all my stuff down the hall to my classroom. No wifi in there...but cable, and the system I used tonight older...and transferring stuff with a memory stick to just about a minute before we started tonight! hahaaa...crazy crazy...and I so appreciate Sarah's help...

IF you thought it went a little rough first time...that is why, but I hope you found the material of value. It will only get better after tonight, I assure you.

Now...I want to thank you Robert, your study notes are very fine! Nice job and service you have provided for everyone!!! :clap: :thumbsup:

Now...let me explain the assignment I want to encourage you to do. After forty years painting I still do this as an exercise. Not so much to understand why my work is working or no, my experience after so many years not so much doubts what I'm doing. For myself its more to understand what's working in the work of some I admire, masters we can always learn something more from etc.,

As you know...the forums of Wetcanvas have not yet had issues sharing works of historic masters, or even of living great painters so long as credit, links are shared. Being that the lessons online are a different venue, I'll encourage to take what I share here. Go out and learn...grow. Make it a point to critique your own past works and see where they've been a little weak, perhaps where they've been working.

What I like students to do...is pick three paintings they really like and analyze...pick 2-3 you do not like, and do the same. Make this a routine exercise and in time your foundations will become instinctive.

So...

Looking at Singer Sargents work, "The Oyster Gatherers of Concale" I squint my eyes, and try to understand the positive elements that Sargent orchestrated to attract the viewer's eye and lead, manipulate it thru the painting. How did he use these elements to establish visual balance? How does he use the elements to direct the eye to move throughout and around the picture without risking the eye leave the painting; always bring the eye back and around???

Here is a link to the painting-http://gandalfsgallery.blogspot.com/2010/12/john-singer-sargent-oyster-gatherers-of.html

Here is my sketch...(and you can do this in your sketchbook, on index cards..use a sharpie marker, a pencil...no matter). Darks are the obvious elements/shapes that pop out...the grayer shapes are supporting cast actors working with the darks. It won't often be such...but yet often may. Seeing this is as much a developing learning skill as any other aspect of painting. So be kind to yourself...work at it...grow.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Oct-2011/532-oystergatherersstudy_sargent.jpg

So, who are some of your favorite painters out there? Spend some time online...do some sketches, then...as I demonstrated...draw a dotted line down the middle dividing your sketch in half...and see how the visual weight of the elements are distributed. Those shapes may point the eye to another...study it.

I'm really hoping you discover a light bulb moment, those would be great to see shared.

Maybe visit my site...choose a few paintings to break down. Maybe a few of your own...

Then...as this thread develops. Perhaps even park a vehicle by a road side...or get out with your sketchbook and take a short walk. Look at a possible painting in your mind. Squint your eyes and see what elements are key, and how you might create a composition from the elements. Perhaps the visual intrigue, the visual balance might even be improved if only you stretched one element like perhaps a tree. Well then...why can't you?

My mantra over the years has been, "paintings work for reasons paintings work"...

The successful painters and works in an image bombarded world continue to excite fans because those painters continue to tap into the dynamics of sound solid composition, and clever arranging of the parts. Trust me..this is not an idle exercise!

Now...I'm looking forward to what you contribute!!! :thumbsup:

Larry

[oldradagast]

Thanks again for the great session yesterday, Larry!

I'll give this assignment a whirl! I'll start by showing a relatively recent painting that I think is a good illustration of what to do, and I follow that with an illustration of a very old painting of mine that will show what not to do.

First up, a classical mountain scene above a cold, alpine river:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/153201-towering_mountain_majesty_1a.jpg

I'm quite happy with this painting (I painted it after taking Johannes's class last year), and hopefully this will be a positive contribution to Larry's assignment this week.

Now, let's knock the color out of it and focus more on the main masses vs. the little details:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/153201-towering_mountain_majesty_1b.jpg

3 separate values are clearly represented in interesting abstract shapes, and there is difference between both halves of the canvas, but there is still balance. The painting doesn't feel too confusing or complex in composition. Now that I look over this painting, I think that the bright snow on the mountain on the left half seems to balance out the extra dark mass on the right half. I wish I could say that was planned, though it was more of a case of it "feeling right."

My next post will show what NOT to do - and boy, do I have experience in that over the years!

[oldradagast]

Okay, now for what NOT to do. This is how NOT to compose a painting, and I submitted this ugly thing in the "Ghosts of Imcompetence Past" thread a few years back. You'll see why...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/153201-edge_of_the_woods_waterfall_muddled.jpg

Yeah, it's over 10 years old, and it is bad - even if the colors and details were perfect, the composition is still a disaster. Let's remove the color and the little details and look at the main shapes and see why:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/153201-edge_of_the_woods_waterfall_muddled_1b.jpg

This painting is all over the place. The composition is terribly complex and almost painful to look at. There is no balance across the halves of the painting, and the abstract shapes in each value range are scattered all over the place like pieces of a jig-saw puzzle. Finally, the scene has extreme lights and darks in places where they are not needed and do not belong.

Obviously, this painting is a failure, but why? On a technical level, there were still many things I didn't know how to do at the time (waterfalls, ripples in water, and even accurate trees), but the main flaw with this scene, IMHO, is that I have no idea what the painting is about. Is it about the waterfall? The rocks? The yellow trees? The red trees above the water? Who knows?

I could have probably painted 2 or 3 good paintings from this scene instead of jamming everything into one confusing mess of a painting. Lesson learned!

[Sonni]

I'm confused --thought we were supposed to pick a painting from one of the Masters and do this. Even though you don't think the second painting works compositionally, it has more vibrancy, interest, and freshness than the one above it.

[sundiver]

I'm confused --thought we were supposed to pick a painting from one of the Masters and do this.
.

If I understand Larry's first post correctly, we can show our own, or old Masters', or any we want that don't break any copyright laws, so long as we find work we like and work we don't, and can analyze the comp.

[LarrySeiler]

If I understand Larry's first post correctly, we can show our own, or old Masters', or any we want that don't break any copyright laws, so long as we find work we like and work we don't, and can analyze the comp.


that's exactly right...

Because I'm working with F&W...I myself am obligated to use caution in full credit to where an image comes from, museum...etc., even if not here in the forums, perhaps the sessions only...I'm going to use restraint.

However...as members, you are obligated only to adhere to the User Agreement as Wetcanvas members...so I am encouraging you to briefly look that over.

This is not going to be some rigid deal here. Let's let our hair down...and discuss.

I would like you to look at works of those you admire and get you into the habit of moving beyond warm & fuzzy feelings to knowing exactly what it is and why you like the work.

With such understanding, you begin to take control of the helm (steerage of a boat), and make better decisions in designing your own works.

So...do some analysis sketches of what you like.

Also...because I think you should then at this point be curious, why not some sketches of work you don't like so much? Wouldn't that be just as instrumental to know? After all...if its not working for other artists, why commit yourself to the same errors!!! :)

[Sonni]

OK, I get it. Sorolla is one of my favorite artists, so I've taken one of his, Mary Painting at the Pardo, I think it's called. He makes use of diagonals in his compositions, and I'm attracted to this because it denotes movement.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/111873-Mary-painting-at-the-Pardo-large.jpg
The painting by Sorolla

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/111873-sorolla_analytical_drawing.jpg
My sketch using 3 values of Tombow pens

[Gribbey]

Jumping right in with my head full of guidelines- after a great seminar Larry. Thank you.
What do you think of my compositional analysis of Van Gogh's 'Noon Rest From Work' ? (from an online poster site- hope that is okay?) To begin with I like the counterpoint of the reclining figures, in the distant wagon- asymmetrical fulcrum type thing. Then basically two triangles of light and two circles with flat bottoms, one light and one dark.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/970132-noon_rest_from_work.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/970132-invertnoon.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/970132-2invertnoon.jpg

The funny thing to me was seeing the balance of the lit pile of hay and the shadow in the top of the pile right next to it only after I had turned the picture upsidedown.

I may not know what I am doing but I have lots of aspiration, sincerely.

[oldradagast]

Note that I used my own paintings since that made it so much easier to find a comparison between a good painting and poor one by the same artist. We generally don't see the poor paintings produced by the Old Masters.

Anyway, just to stick to the topic, here's one of several Poppy Fields painted by Monet.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/153201-Monet1.jpg

Simplifying it and removing the color yields this:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/153201-Monet1a.jpg

The dark figure on the right is needed to balance out the heavy dark trees on the left, and I think the brighter clouds on the right side also help out in this regard. Strangely, I feel that peak in the distant tree line on the right side also helps the composition... given Monet's skill, I have to assume that was intentional.

[Sonni]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/970132-2invertnoon.jpg

The funny thing to me was seeing the balance of the lit pile of hay and the shadow in the top of the pile right next to it only after I had turned the picture upsidedown.

I may not know what I am doing but I have lots of aspiration, sincerely.

You might make another swipe at this to get the angle of the bottom shape correct. It puts a new light on the movement of the painting. That line just sweeps right in there and moves the eye up and around...

[Gribbey]

Hi Sonni, What about this take? Thanks.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/970132-2:invertnoon.jpg

[LarrySeiler]

Hey Matthew...appreciate your posting...

My inclination is that the painting as is...is too symmetrical...and the values of the water are quite near that of the tree masses which when converted to grayscale demonstrates that the potential depth illusion (that cube of planes going from here, near, there...and way back there) is flattened.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/532-matthew_rivermtn2.jpg

You have nearly the same amount of element mass opposed to a center dividing vertical line, and the peak of that distant mountain is quite near center.

Now arguably, this creates something of a triangle, and emotively can evoke a sense of calm or peace...as a triangle possesses much strength. However from the standpoint of the dynamics that create the kind of intrigue that holds the attention and eye of the viewer, such a visual balance orchestration is at once too easily understood.

The danger is this. Something too easily understood is something that risks being too easily dismissed and the viewer moves on. So, I played with it some...

As for values, typically the water being a flatter plane than the upright verticals of the trees will receive light from the sky making it lighter over all. Now...if the sun is low..the reflections of the trees in the water will be darker than the trees themselves, but if the sun is high the light penetrated the water, having a direct access to the water will cause reflections to be lighter, and the trees darker.

Needless to say though...we want to increase our depth illusion if possible.

Here then some playing on my part...albeit one possibility-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/532-matthew_rivermtn.jpg

I like to see less categorizing of narration into convenient rectangles...

If you look at the first image of yours...the black horizontal lines show containment of the river in the one, the height of the trees the other, the mountains/sky the upper.

I prefer to see and encourage more invasion of planes. Juxtaposition. And if it requires extending the height of trees to invade the plane space in midground, than do so...because (here comes my mantra) "paintings work for reasons paintings work!"

You see that I have the one pine located about the lower right crossing of the rule of 3rd's point...the line of the mountain leading up to the peak, and then we need a "cause" that would bring the eye back down.

Knowing how clouds kiss the mountains, why not clouds? So I position and create clouds to prevent the eye from leaving the picture plane and lead the eye back down. A diagonal of the one slope also helps to lead the eye down, and it begins all over again.

Note too...(by the greenish smaller vertical line), that I extended the river's point jutting out into the river past the center vertical line that would divide the painting in half.

Variation...variation...variation. Variation in values... in line, in heights, in juxtaposition, in edges...

[LarrySeiler]

I like that example, Sonni...of Sorolla...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/532-sorolla.jpg


rotating the sketch...it is interesting to see how the elements cull the eye to move throughout the work...and use asymmetry to visually balance.

Good!!! :D

[LarrySeiler]

The Van Gogh piece is wonderful too...

It reveals the classic "S" or "Z" common to past master works...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/532-gribbey1.jpg

and when seeing this in light of the rule of 3rds...see how the small visual weight (distant wagon/horse) placed right on the idealized focal point works to balance the larger mass nearer to the fulcrum. The diagonal laying of the figures keeps the work dynamic...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/532-gribbey2.jpg

Good stuff...!!

your catching the repeating of the line and curve is good!!

[LarrySeiler]

The dark figure on the right is needed to balance out the heavy dark trees on the left, and I think the brighter clouds on the right side also help out in this regard. Strangely, I feel that peak in the distant tree line on the right side also helps the composition... given Monet's skill, I have to assume that was intentional.

You picked a good one here, Matthew! I think something else though. That weight is so heavy on the left...and the small figure nearly equally positioned from the central vertical divide that I think several other things are happening. Not so sure the individual by itself is enough...but note how the values of the grasses are slated so as to create a diagonal leading up to the figure lower left....that contrasts broken in the sky work to pull the eye over, but really...I think most important is that bit of break in the clouds Monet suggests with that sliver of brilliant high chroma warm color in the distance, (circled)...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/532-matthew_monet.jpg

This is becoming a great exercise...and hopefully everyone will find themselves playing with their own compositions a bit more!! Very good!!!

[oldradagast]

Thanks for the comments, Larry - I'll probably do a variation of that painting with your guidelines in mind in the future!

With the Monet painting, I had not thought of the diagonal lines of the grass, but now that you point it out, it makes sense. Same with the cloud breaks - the strong distant light adds interest. I didn't see that at all - thanks!

[painterted]

You picked a good one here, Matthew! I think something else though. That weight is so heavy on the left...and the small figure nearly equally positioned from the central vertical divide that I think several other things are happening. Not so sure the individual by itself is enough...but note how the values of the grasses are slated so as to create a diagonal leading up to the figure lower left....that contrasts broken in the sky work to pull the eye over, but really...I think most important is that bit of break in the clouds Monet suggests with that sliver of brilliant high chroma warm color in the distance, (circled)...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/532-matthew_monet.jpg

This is becoming a great exercise...and hopefully everyone will find themselves playing with their own compositions a bit more!! Very good!!!



Also the red color of the flowers helps the balance, am I right?

ted

[SusieQ2002]

I really enjoyed the class yesterday. I have marked the image with comments about the composition.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/809832-Homework_for_Class_by_Larry_Seiler.jpg

[LarrySeiler]

Also the red color of the flowers helps the balance, am I right?

ted

yes...as a complementary color to the predominant green, it absolutely works that way. Good eye, Ted...

further, I imagine this was as I taught last night too...not necessarily thought out as a strategic device by Monet. Chances are it was his knowledge based foundations and experience in the form of a gut hunch. Probably just felt right to him. For reasons we can analyze, we can see his hunch played out.

What is important for those wanting to become better painters is not "hope" for good hunches and just let whatever happens happen. If I can convince folks that good design, good composition is important...then understand that you invest the effort now to enjoy what comes worthy trusting years down the road as sound intuition, or gut hunch.

Make it happen now...for good sound reason. In time you'll look back at a work that flowed out of you, hear someone ask you about it and realize, "dang...those good choices came out of me, didn't they! Wow!"

[LarrySeiler]

Susie...glad you pulled this off! :)

I think you have such a strong compelling subject in that lighthouse that you are asking the smaller lower right circled area a lot to provide that balance. That little greenish mass and its chroma (color purity and saturation) and its value..is not altogether that much different from the same above. It lacks the distinction to call enough attention to itself IMO (in my opinion) to fully balance asymmetrically.

Now on the other hand, were the lighthouse nearer to crossing the central vertical divide going more to the upper right, being so strong a compelling image to look at both by color, (its juxtaposition of possessing inherent variation), and the lower circled mass to the opposite left side, that I think might better visually balance..

[graphxgal]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/62956-Week1_LSeiler_Webinarjpg.jpg

These are two images by Monet that i really admire. Trying to do as Larry said and figure out what it is that draws me into the painting that i like. How is it balanced and pleasing to the eye. I really tried to keep these things in mind. The Roches Noires Hotel really grabbed my attention with the long dark shadow on the right. It was neither disturbing or confusing because of the lighter area opposite. This shadow, i think helps to draw the eye through the painting. Hopefully I am on track here..lol
The second painting is very similar in that the darker area of water leads the eye through the painting. the dark green mass top right is balanced by the lighter lilies in the opposite corner.

[Dharma_bum]

Here is one I've always liked a lot by the late Marlin Linville. I am never sure exactly where the eye is "supposed" to enter the picture, or the exact route it takes, but I see this basically as a circular pattern, with the eye entering at around mid left, following the water down to the dark pool, then along the lower edge of the rock to the light bush at the base, following then either along the edge of the rock or the branches farther up and bridging to the evergreen, which leads to the stream where it enters the picture, and following that back around to the rock.

I think it could also be seen a a "Z", coming down the hill to the stream, and following that. The large rock is balanced by the rocky bank on the upper left, and the the trees on the upper right by the dark pool on the left.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/41430-Scan-2.jpg

Dan

[Tresgatos]

Hi Larry - I want to thank you for the lesson you gave - really enjoyed it a lot. Trying to improve the paintings I do and chose to analyze one I had done before I just read that you would like us to look at the Masters paintings. I spent quite a bit of time on trying to analyze the following I hope you don't mind my posting it. I will research a Master painting tomorrow and post it.

First painting in color - in Acrylic - "After the Run"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-email_-_After_the_Run_-_color.jpg

Discarded the color and made the lines for the 3rds

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-3rds_grayscale_-_After_the_Run_-_copy.jpg


Looked for the Focal Point

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-Focal_Point_-_After_the_Run_-_copy.jpg


Looked for the balance

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-Balance_-Grayscale-06.jpg


Tried to decided how the eye flowed around the painting

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-eye_movement_around_painting_grayscale_-_After_the_Run_-_copy.jpg


Looked for the planes - pulling the painting apart to do so
Plane 1

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-layer_1_for_depth_-_bottom_to_top.jpg

Plane 2

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-layer_2_for_depth.jpg


Plane 3

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-layer_3_-_from_bottom_to_top.jpg

Plane 4

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-layer_4_from_bottom_to_top.jpg


I believe the colors work as well as gradation but I think I should have faded the background out more to achieve a greater depth. Most likely there is a lot more that can be done with this painting but I'm at a loss as to what it is.

More analysis forthcoming on one of the Master's painting - I did struggle with the computer program trying to accomplish what I posted. Thanks again for your lesson.

Barbara

[flowergirl]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/59895-Tribute_to_Monet.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/59895-Copy_of_Tribute_to_Monet.jpg

This is a photo I took that I would like to paint one day. I've always loved the photo but didn't know why. Now I can see: Asymmetry, gradation, direction (circle) and contrast.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Thanks for your wonderful class and all the information I'm trying to process.
Sharon
Vermont

[LarrySeiler]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/62956-Week1_LSeiler_Webinarjpg.jpg

These are two images by Monet that i really admire.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-monet.jpg

Here's the skill set I'm trying to get folks to imitate or try to show some growing sense of. Just a simple index card and sharpie...squinting the eye and detecting the elements most responsible for attracting and then directing/holding the viewer's eye.

turn it on its side...look for obvious signs of symmetry or asymmetry, envision the rule of 3rd's and see if a major focal point is not responsible for recalling the eye to itself again and again.

Turning the first Monet piece on its side...it became more apparent to me than seeing it normal...where the eye leads into the picture, and how the elements lead the eye.

In the second Monet...to be honest, I think this one is a weaker design on his part. Perhaps in his day without blueray, television, cable, billboards and cultural image bombardment such works may have been revolutionary. But by today's standard there's nothing too earth shattering IMO...nothing dynamic. Its lack of a real punch might be psychologically calming or relaxing, which may hae been the intent, and sure that works. Myself, today I would likely stray from such.

You are correct seeing the "S" lead in...

[LarrySeiler]

Here is one I've always liked a lot by the late Marlin Linville. I am never sure exactly where the eye is "supposed" to enter the picture, or the exact route it takes, but I see this basically as a circular pattern, with the eye entering at around mid left, following the water down to the dark pool, then along the lower edge of the rock to the light bush at the base, following then either along the edge of the rock or the branches farther up and bridging to the evergreen, which leads to the stream where it enters the picture, and following that back around to the rock.

I think it could also be seen a a "Z", coming down the hill to the stream, and following that. The large rock is balanced by the rocky bank on the upper left, and the the trees on the upper right by the dark pool on the left.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/41430-Scan-2.jpg

Dan

some good observations Dan...

here too are simple index card/sharpie sketches...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-linville.jpg

Its interesting that something insignificant as a small darker shaped value carries power to support visual weight and sway for the eye...

The painting while filled with a lot of supposed detail, information...is really founded on some simple underlying design.

[LarrySeiler]

H

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Oct-2011/113757-email_-_After_the_Run_-_color.jpg

I did struggle with the computer program trying to accomplish what I posted. Thanks again for your lesson.

Barbara

Hey Barbara...what I want folks to know is that you could carry some index cards and a sharpie in your pocket going to a major art museum, and in the course of a couple hours have a good pocketful of studies or breakdowns of competition. It really doesn't take the computer...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-elephant.jpg

What I'd like you to see in this design is that too many players are cast in the narrative drama, too many given a voice. It comes back to that idea that where everything is shouting nothing is heard.

One rule of thumb is the 2/3's rule...which is..one-third is a neutral resting area for the eyes...two-thirds area of interest, or vice versa...2/3's resting area for eyes (nothing much happening...) and 1/3rd positive elements.

In other words too busy...and your elements circling the elephant are somewhat I believe distracting...again, competing. I would simplify with values, and breaking such up. De-emphasize some things.

Here is basically what is happening...squint your eyes and its fairly plain to see...that elements are circling the elephant...and having far too much a role in the narrative. And squinting my eyes...that little small tree you are hoping plays a role as a fulcrum countering balance for asymmetry is hardly detectable. You are asking a role it is being out performed by all else.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-elephant2.jpg

My intent isn't to be discouraging...but honest. Trying to push...ask everyone here to stretch themselves.

I can tell you having competed in a good number of state stamp design competitions such as Duck stamps, or Salmon stamps...etc., that the pile of entrees sit up on a desk and judges sit facing the table.

One by one the pieces are held up...and the judges hold something like a yes stick/card and a no...and if there are seven judges (for example) and four hold up yes...it survives to go on to the next round. On and on til what remains are the top ten...

The artists might spend 40-80 hours making a design, but in this initial process it gets held up and seen for probably about 10-15 seconds.

What that means is...as an artist you have to come to learn what it is judges are looking for. Drama, clarity, anatomical correctness, narrative, contrast in color and values that just grabs you and says WOW! But...the impression this is attained hits the judges near immediately.

now...let's substitute "judges" for "joe public" and their seeing over 30,000 images just in one half hour television show. The modern individual is an expert at TUNING OUT...and we are trying our level best to dismantle that natural inclination. Use some "wow" or "X" Factor!

so...we begin by avoiding shooting ourselves in the foot. Nothing that is distracting or competes. Enough supporting cast to be convincing...

Next, I'll give you a quick sketch what I think might work better here...

[LarrySeiler]

here is a quick pencil sketch of one possibility...

Ordinarily when I do wildlife...I'll do twenty-thirty sketches. Often I'll cut studies of the subject (in this case the elephant) out of newsprint...and with tape I can move things around until I find the most ideal presentation...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-elephant_sketch.jpg

The elephant lies prominently in the rule of third junctures, takes a role as the heavy weight in asymmetry, the distance allows me to play with values and color to create a sense of depth illusion and contrasts of values that won't compete with the elephant...and so forth.

hope that helps...

[spirothet]

The photo I chose comes from the Ref Library of WC. It show large vs small in the bushes as well as light/dark. Thanks, Cali

[ginib]

Hi all,

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/60360-Monet_2A_2.jpg

Thought I'd give this a try. A Monet from the image gallery on WC http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=121152

Getting close with this? The white markings are the light/dark balances. The symmetry most closely resembles the O to me. Time to review.

I choose this one because it was not as obvious to me as some of the others I'd viewed. Help would be really appreciated.
gini

[Tresgatos]

Hello Larry,

I very much appreciate your taking so much time to give my painting a constructive critique. It does help me to understand why I was feeling that "something wasn't quite right" about it. I have much to learn and believe the practice of looking at the Master's paintings and trying to dissect them will help me to understand what good composition is.

Thank you.

Barbara

[LarrySeiler]

The photo I chose comes from the Ref Library of WC. It show large vs small in the bushes as well as light/dark. Thanks, Cali

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-westernscene.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-centerdivide.jpg

didn't know, Cali...if you were intending to do this or not? That is...using a marker or pen and a sketchbook or index card to analyze. I would not use this reference as is...since it divides the canvas in half horizontally. Plus the brush comes to a height near equivalent to the tops of the mountains. In other words, a poor camera angle for an ideal painting.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-onepossibility.jpg

A couple possibilities...raise the mountains up...as the end of my powerpoint suggests...who is to say you might not be standing closer to those mountains when taking a photo? But it creates variation...and invades the upper plane more...gives more prominence to the brush as well.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Oct-2011/532-2ndpossibility.jpg

or a lower to the ground view...brush raising above the distant mountains...and a panoramic format...

[LarrySeiler]

Hello Larry,

I very much appreciate your taking so much time to give my painting a constructive critique. It does help me to understand why I was feeling that "something wasn't quite right" about it. I have much to learn and believe the practice of looking at the Master's paintings and trying to dissect them will help me to understand what good composition is.

Thank you.

Barbara


my pleasure, Barbara... :thumbsup:

[siberart]

This is a painting by Sidney Laurence, Alaska's premier plein air artist. Probably should have started with something simpler, but here it is.

[LarrySeiler]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/532-pat_laurence.jpg

first thing I suggest is to squint and slightly blur your vision...

next focus on values and see what jumps out-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/532-pat_laurence_values.jpg

then with an index card or sketchbook...using a sharpie or pencil, ballpoint pen-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/532-pat_laurencesketch.jpg

and I think...it is much more plain to see the simplified manner which Laurence has gone about creating the orchestration of the elements and main narrative...

[siberart]

Thanks Larry. Looking for another example and try again.

[Lowe]

Ermm I understand what we are doing. However I am not satisfied with my analysis of this picture.

I like the painting and it caught my eye. But I cannot work out why?

This is the picture

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/184661-Stepan_Feodorovich_Kolesnikov.jpg

In the fields Stepan Feodorovich Kolesnikov (Adrianopol 1879 - Belgrade 1955)
In the Fields
signed in Cyrillic and dated ‘S. Kolesnikov 1919/I/10’ (lower left)
gouache on board
14.2 x 27.9 cm (5⅝ x 11 in)

http://www.masterart.com/PortalDefault.aspx?tabid=53&dealerId=5086&objectID=164324

and my analysis. I think I need some help :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/184661-Stepan_Feodorovich_Kolesnikov_2.jpg

[Amandine]

This my 1st part of homework.
I chose a painting from Clyde Aspevig, a really great landscape painter. The photo comes from his website where it's allowed to save pictures on our computer. Title of the painting is : On a Good Year

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/661062-clyde_aspevig_on_a_good_year_690.jpg

Then, here's what I've done on this painting. Put a grid on it to locate the thirds ; note contrast between lights and darks ; found some guidelines ; discovered a "S" form in the sky, between clouds. The "S" in the river was easily noticable but I was amazed to discover how one can set a sky (meaning clouds) so that you get nice curves in it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/661062-clyde_aspevig_on_a_good_year_690_WC_copie.jpg

After that, I turned the photo in black & white and added a filter so it's blurred. I now can see masses only , this would be of help to make a little sketch.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/661062-clyde_aspevig_on_a_good_year_690_flou.jpg

In a second part, I may work on one of my failed paintings, :evil: doing the same exercice and trying to come to a sketch where the composition would be better. I'll try to work on that during the week-end.

[JaneChilton]

Thank you, Larry, for the excellent lessons - I'm thinking about things I don't normally! And thanks for all the help getting this far.

I chose a painting by my favorite Van Gogh.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/857432-vangoghA.jpg

My value simplification (sorry it's blurry - I'll drag out the tripod next time, I swear).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/857432-arthomework.jpg

Oh, how my eye (personally) traveled through van Gogh's painting - up from the bottom to the left, around the tree, back down to the right, up tot left to tree again (love that tree).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/857432-vangoghB.jpg

My value sketch on it's side.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/857432-arthomework1.jpg

To me the tree balances well with the entire lower half because of it's single large dark value against the great variety of higher values in the lower.

Jane

[JaneChilton]

Having looked at my analysis on this thread, I think I should have made a large area across the mid-lower half a little darker. Oops!

Jane

[tukai]

Thank you for the explaining it very clearly. I understand all the rules when you explain but i can't seem to do it on my own. I will try to up load if i can manage to to figure out. Thanks again.

[Lowe]

Ermm I understand what we are doing. However I am not satisfied with my analysis of this picture.

I like the painting and it caught my eye. But I cannot work out why?

This is the picture

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/184661-Stepan_Feodorovich_Kolesnikov.jpg

In the fields Stepan Feodorovich Kolesnikov (Adrianopol 1879 - Belgrade 1955)
In the Fields
signed in Cyrillic and dated ‘S. Kolesnikov 1919/I/10’ (lower left)
gouache on board
14.2 x 27.9 cm (5⅝ x 11 in)

http://www.masterart.com/PortalDefault.aspx?tabid=53&dealerId=5086&objectID=164324

and my analysis. I think I need some help :)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/184661-Stepan_Feodorovich_Kolesnikov_2.jpg

I have thought about this now and see the following


There is a quite subtle (or at least I see it as subtle) Z shape moving across the picture. I think the foreground and the central position of the composition traps my eye and makes it rest on the middle of the painting between the one third grid lines. The left grid line is poorly placed and I should put it over the figure of the man. The main elements are all then trapped inside the centre square. The two white areas on the right and left create a balance. The right white space attracts the eye before it comes back down to the middle point of the picture, I think. Or perhaps the eye bounces between the two while areas.

The trees at the back on the right line up to discourage the eye from moving behind those trees and brings it back down to the middle.

The more I look the more I see :)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/184661-Stepan_Feodorovich_Kolesnikov_3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/184661-Stepan_Feodorovich_Kolesnikov_4.jpg

[Judibelle]

Lowe...I see a circle around the horse and up into the tree branch and back down around the guy at the left. Even the twigs seem to bring the circle back around.......
but that's just me....i'm just learning to 'see'!

[LarrySeiler]

I like how you are working this out, Lowe...of "In The Fields"

Like anything, this takes time to learn, to make a habit...and more importantly revealing and telling for you.

Here is the thing I'd like to convince folks of...if you make this a habit for a good while, in time you will come to realize you no longer are taking works of art in by others passively. Your mind is at work. Working thus, you are developing a sense of what will work as better visual design solutions for your own work.

There is a lot of mediocre art in the world...if you want to raise a level, it takes doing something others are not likely to do. This is one of those. So often when I point out something fundamentally flawed with an artist's composition or design it brings a "oh...wow, I didn't see that!" kind of response.

Why wait to be told and see it in hindsight...?

Work..wrestle, and get on top of this...

The other thing...I like your use of threshold in Photoshop...which is closer to drawing and revealing what I would like folks to look for as an aide in seeing better. I prefer these exercises with actual physical drawing. I think when you draw you are engaging parts of the brain and observational critical thinking skills not otherwise tapped.

I did a quick simple sketch of this one myself-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-inthefields1.jpg

was impressed by the complicated asymmetry here...and IMO how important that little dark value is in the lower 4-5 O'Clock position circled in red is. Without that little spot painting (which I submit was no accident, but intended by the artist for this purpose), this painting would not have a working design/visual balance. Very cool...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-inthefields2.jpg

[LarrySeiler]

This my 1st part of homework.
I chose a painting from Clyde Aspevig, a really great landscape painter.


He is the man, isn't he? What a painter for our time...

you've noted some good things, especially the classic "Z" or snaking of the "S"

couple things I too pick up, which translates thus to me as clever use of asymmetry..

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-aspevig1.jpg

note how he extends the right point of the river just beyond the central divide line, this assures we don't get two paintings going on in one, by juxtaposing and invading one side of the canvas into the other. Same with the cloud. Note how that river weighs to the left of the line and yet hugs it..

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-aspevig2.jpg

the sloping cloud lines form a directive for the eyes to move to the right...which further balances asymmetrically the darker brush/elements and river edge on the lower left..

nice stuff...good observations!!! :clap:

[LarrySeiler]

Thank you, Larry, for the excellent lessons - I'm thinking about things I don't normally! And thanks for all the help getting this far.

I chose a painting by my favorite Van Gogh.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/857432-vangoghA.jpg

Jane

you are on to it Jane!!! And I like that you have executed actual sketches!! Whoo Hoo!!!

This is good stuff...

I see a real simple design mechanism to grab attention of the eye, direct it, then to prevent losing the eye off the lower left trailing edge that little bitty spot to the right of the main tree says, "OOOoohhh...no you don't viewer's eye! C'mon back up here and look at me!"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-vangogh.jpg

Classic "S" or "Z"...assymetry, all good!

[JaneChilton]

Thanks, Larry - your "S" pattern is so much more obvious that my contortion!

And Robert - thanks for the notes - there's stuff my audio missed.

Jane

[LarrySeiler]

Hey Jane, what is important is that we see your sense of ordering the world you paint...and that you cultivate a routine that you build on. :)

[Sonni]

I've scrolled through these, looking for sketches, black and white and gray ones on those 3x5 cards or whatever, and don't see many. Outside of Larry's input, sketching the analysis, that is. To my mind, the real learning happens when you physically take up pen,pencil or charcoal and have at it. Yes, it's a little work. But then, isn't that what this exercise is about, rather than circling and making arrows on ready made art?

In the meantime, I'm casting about for a really bad composition in my bucket collection (an excellent place to find them) and find I'm reluctant to sketch the "badness." Mostly this is because I know they didn't work and that's why they are in the bucket collection to begin with. Larry, if you have an opinion on what is to be gained from doing an analytical sketch of one of them, I'd be glad to hear it--preferably before I burn them.

[Amandine]

Hello Larry,

As mentioned previously, here's my 2nd part of homework. This is a painting I did 15-16 months ago. It's a real flop. Note how I have 3 rectangles, 3 train tracks. Also, I have a boring line of trees going from left to right. The shack is lost within trees. I put it in b&w because I don't want to show how I spoiled the sky and the water.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/661062-029.jpg

I painted it from the following photo. I sticked too much to it. I hadn't been painting for a long while at that time and wasn't enough concerned with composition rules.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/661062-F1030007.JPG

I worked the photo in Photoshop to crop it, removed a big part of the sky and cut some trees on the right. With that done, I did a little sketch where I cleared part of the shack so we can see it, moved the big rock to the left and the little dock to the right with a small boat, changed the line of the left hill.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/661062-IMG_0001-1.jpg

What's your opinion ?

[LarrySeiler]

Larry, if you have an opinion on what is to be gained from doing an analytical sketch of one of them, I'd be glad to hear it--preferably before I burn them.

Learning what to do...is naturally important, but conversely learning and recognizing what NOT to do also has its important place. Also an education.

When I work with students I emphasize til nearly blue in the face the value of not pulling out the eraser. The complex of lines laid down trying to find true form are indicators not only of what is right, but what is wrong. Why repeat the same error when one can learn from it? Needless to say...the eraser is reached for again and again...and instead of drawing being a positive outlet, it is one of a negative, that is...striving not to mess up, instead of enjoying the process.

If you already know what is the culprit for reasons the work has not worked, I would suppose keeping them is a nil or moot point. If they become reminders of what not to do...and there is risk the reminding grows feint with their departure.

[LarrySeiler]

What's your opinion ?


I like that you're working it out...and that you're intent to better understand this...

Here is just one (of many) possibilities when I look at this picture. At once, it reminds me of many places right here where I live in northern Wisconsin, and in upper Michigan...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-amandine.jpg

Dropped the horizontal lay of the masses way down, giving more room for sky, and greater opportunity for the nearer mass to invade that sky, allowing to build character in the trees. I have positioned one of the more explosive cadmium colored trees at the right rule of thirds, and the painting could really become a statement about that tree's voice in the narrative. You could lower the distant mass so that the top of the trees of both near and far are not close in competition. Who is to say we are not closer to the shore, thus allowing us to be more invasive with the statement?

Photos...and nature itself are really models...for reference. They exist as your playground to do as you will. When you understand paintings work for reasons paintings work...you manipulate to please the eye, and what is fun is when you yet capture the mood and spirit of the place. Folks familiar will yet go..."oh yes...that's home away from home! Love that place!"

[Amandine]

At once, it reminds me of many places right here where I live in northern Wisconsin, and in upper Michigan...

The photo was taken in Eastern Townships (Québec), a wonderful area where I live, lot of beautiful mountains and lovely lakes. :)

So, if I understand well, I forget about the shack to concentrate more on the colorful trees. I crop less of the sky and a bit more of the water. Am I right ?

I'm not really used to sketch. But I should do more of this exercise. As you say, it helps to figure out the best composition, the best lines. :thumbsup:

Thank you very much.

[LarrySeiler]

The spatial properties of the scene are one of more privacy...intimate privacy on the part of the cabin holder I should think. This is one of those moments where if everything is shouting, nothing gets heard. To represent the cabin fairly, you would have to give it more prominence...one that is hardly warranted, IMO...but yes, the shoreline, the moment, allows for such..

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-ratriver_fwdemowc.jpg

this is a plein air I painted this past Monday night..and video taped it as a demo for part of session three. It is an Impressionist effort...painting the color of the light.

Compare that with the same location where I painted more the subject as it held place, juxtaposition against the sky...etc., the purpose featuring the trees as subject...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Oct-2011/532-2paintings2moods.jpg

what I'm saying is...the subject is an excuse. A "cause"...once you learn to love paint. You play games and say...this time I will respond to the light...this time I will feature this, and downplay that...so on and so forth.

Don't make too much out of what a thing must be, unless it is commissioned. A job...

Seek to celebrate, with paint as your means to do so. Life...a gift...!

[Amandine]

This is one of those moments where if everything is shouting, nothing gets heard.

I think I'm starting to understand ...

[Lowe]

I hope you don't mind Amandine I like your photo and I made a little sketch of your photo to try to convey what I saw in the composition.

for me, there is a z formation in the sky which is reflected in the water. It kind of jumped out at me as soon as I saw the picture. Of course it may be that I am obsessed with "z's" who knows. When you look carefully the z in the water is visible both in darks with a corresponding relfection in light. The reflections are mixed in with the reflected colours of the trees. So for me the picture is in the water and the row of trees brings my eye back to what is in front of the trees :)



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/184661-Picture_563.jpg

[Lowe]

Thanks Larry for your analysis

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/184661-Picture_562.jpg

[painterted]

I have been looking at this painting for the last couple of days, and I can't see the center of interest. Is it that dark hill way in the background, that's what the lead in's suggest to me, am I correct?

ted



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/661062-clyde_aspevig_on_a_good_year_690.jpg

[pastelmimigt]

Hi Larry,

This isn't following your assignment exactly, but I hope you don't mind as it is trying to work out a good composition. Here's the original photo:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/78182-8x10_-_McCullough_Creek_-_Mobile_Paddler_-_4-26-12.jpg
I especially like the angled water line, but cropping it to show that leaves out a nice focal point. So I cropped it where I though the focal point looked the best and then in GIMP angled the waterline:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/78182-8x10_-_McCullough_Creek_-_Mobile_Paddler_-_GIMP4-4.jpg\

I chose this crop to have the tall tree as the focal point. I'm still not sure I like this enough to paint it. And would love to get your feedback.

Thanks,
Michele

[Susan Peltonen]

Hi Larry,
Thank you for a great lesson last week! After looking at the works of various artists, I've decided to pick a painting by Sargent for my composition homework. It was a little easier than many to try to figure out. I hope I've come close to what you were asking for.

"Street in Venice 2"http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/153022-Street-in-Venice-1882-large.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/153022-value-examples.jpg by John Singer Sargent:

The diagonal lines (blue) lead the viewer's eye into the picture, and create a sense of depth. There are three planes which further help create depth: the foreground consisting of the three large standing figures, the middle ground consisting of the 2 smaller seated figures, and the background consisting of the building at the end of the street. And possibly a fourth plane of structures above the far building.

When I look at this picture my eye focuses first on the figure of the woman to the left of the center line (green). She catches my eye possibly because she is facing the viewer and is lower on the page and seems to be walking straight at me.

My eye then moves in a circular pattern (red arrows): first, over to the two male figures on the woman's right, then back to the two seated figures, then forward again to the woman.

The angled buildings on either side of the street converging to meet the building in the background, act as boundaries, and give the figures greater strength within the picture plane. They help to hold the viewers interest in and keep the eye from wandering out of the picture.

The main areas of interest (the figures) are all contained within the right two thirds of the picture plane (black grid lines).

Value Sketch:

Sargent uses asymmetry to visually balance his light and dark areas within the picture plane (the one third / two third ratio).

[rib00]

Here's my first homework assignment, a painting by Carl Spitzweg, for review. In the process found public domain art at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

[Sonni]

I have been looking at this painting for the last couple of days, and I can't see the center of interest. Is it that dark hill way in the background, that's what the lead in's suggest to me, am I correct?

ted



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Oct-2011/661062-clyde_aspevig_on_a_good_year_690.jpg

My guess is the obvious, the stream. I like Aspevigs work. He has some interesting and sometimes understated designs. In this the sky mimics the stream, so the stream must be pretty important
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/111873-661062-clyde_aspevig_on_a_desaturated.jpg

[Judibelle]

well, I have spent the week studying, squinting, reading, and am Beginning to get it, sketching...or trying to sketch...photos that I have wanted to paint. I think i am finally beginning to 'get' the 'rhythm' thing.
I worked on sketches of one of the Spotlight photos for this month, and see what I think is the projection to the CofI....but am not adept enough at 'editing; to show it yet. Did many index cards of it, and think I have a do-able sketch.
Stuff that I have read about composition, and pretty much skipped over, is now making sense. Thank you, Larry...for a most valuable lesson.

[LarrySeiler]

wow...some great images and analysis added today!! No time to do justice tonight...have been busy. This week did two paintings, both filmed, the created and edited the film for Session Three...October 18th...and went over old film. I will try and find time tomorrow to respond, but I am delighted and feeling like folks are now really starting to get this.

Love the Sargent piece, and good analysis, Susan...
Michelle, there is stuff to work with for sure, and you are on target with the vertical. See something of concern with the photo I would avoid, will explain tomorrow...
Aspevig's piece is wonderful...sometimes the "subject" or "focus" is the sense of a moment...the peace, the largeness of space and tranquility. If you block that river/cloud painting with the hand...it is almost arguably close to two paintings in one...but, the reflection of the river of the clouds ties it in. Both the upper and lower are interesting subjects in themselves...

gotta go folks. Awesome work today!!!! :clap:

[spirothet]

Larry, I understand what you want, but i'm not sure if I see it correctly. I do know my eye travels around in this painting. Starts in the foreground with the path leading you back to the left going from one tree to the other down the tree trunk and back to the foreground. Thanks, Cali

[LarrySeiler]

Here's my first homework assignment, a painting by Carl Spitzweg, for review. In the process found public domain art at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Very nice...yes, everything set up seems to direct the eye back to this one gentlemen. Good detective work!

In looking at this, I also though it would be interesting to see just how much that building/mass on the right is needed or not to yet balance out, and create intrigue. In other words, is there enough going on asymmetrically, to visually balance and allow for greater simplification?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/532-carlspitzweg.jpg

Because the gentleman is so distinct in his height, placement, bolder values, I think there is almost enough draw (interest) just in the boat...that it yet seems to work.

Playing around this way too, is a fine way to see other possibilities.

[JaneChilton]

To me, the man (immediately previous post) looking at the girl does need the building and the water trough, because when I imagine just open field (in light value) there - the whole weight falls to the left and the girl becomes too tied visually to the man, rather than a surprise waiting to happen. (Long sentence, I know.) In fact, I saw him and the dog first, then her. Seeing her made me look back at him, which is when I noticed he's looking at her. It's kind of humorous!

Anyway, it struck me that way.

Jane

[LarrySeiler]

good, Jane...and then conversely, imagine if the man standing there had called out to the girl, she was looking up the hill to the right, and the man was looking up and arm extended...pointing at something out of the painting.

These psychological ways of adding to the narrative and creating asymmetry are also interesting to ponder.

The artist needs to remain inquisitive, free to explore...and see how scenes can be changed.

At the same time...had the man been taking out of the painting, the building kept...but the windows thrown open and someone leaning out, perhaps shouting a greeting to the girl.

All interesting ideas... :)

[LarrySeiler]

My guess is the obvious, the stream. I like Aspevigs work. He has some interesting and sometimes understated designs. In this the sky mimics the stream, so the stream must be pretty important
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Oct-2011/111873-661062-clyde_aspevig_on_a_desaturated.jpg

Actually...until I took a marker and scrap piece of paper...it did not occur to me the simple but sound composition Aspevig's darker accent marks and shapes are...and how just a touch of light value to suggest clouds or the larger mass of clouds are necessary to balance this out...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/532-aspevig3.jpg

good stuff.. :thumbsup:

[rib00]

Larry,

Thanks for the comments. Lightening the right side changes the mood of the painting for me. It now has a lighter almost whimsical tone. In looking at his other work, I see the pool of light surrounded by darkest is a common theme.

Looking at it more closely, he seems to have incorporated just a few lines (out cropping on the left and the sloped fence rails) to lead you visually to the girl.

Bill

[LarrySeiler]

Larry, I understand what you want, but i'm not sure if I see it correctly. I do know my eye travels around in this painting. Starts in the foreground with the path leading you back to the left going from one tree to the other down the tree trunk and back to the foreground. Thanks, Cali

sketching this one out...I noted how important it was that the tree on the right is leaning to the right...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/532-vangogh3.jpg

and the path leading to the left makes sure the eye does not leave the picture plane on the left from the leaning tree.
Would be interesting to know if Van Gogh intuited such...or actually thought such out...

[pastelmimigt]

I have to admit, I'm pretty confused on how to discern why I like a painting. But I forged ahead anyway and picked a Monet painting that I liked, desaturated it, drew a line down the center (though I'm not sure why) and then drew arrows on how the patterns that were created moved they eyes around thereby keeping the viewer interested. So I guess my exercise here is about movement.

I'm sure there are other things that one could pick out of this painting, like the colors, values, and balance as those things all direct the eyes. And is this what we're looking for? What directs the eyes?

Michele

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/78182-Money_-_The_Sea_at_Fecamp.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/78182-Money_-_The_Sea_at_Fecamp_-_GIMP2.jpg

[pastelmimigt]

I think I just might have have seen the lightbulb, LOL. I've found some order in the chaos I drew up in the last posting:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/78182-Money_-_The_Sea_at_Fecamp_GIMP3.jpg

The viewer enters the painting at the lower left and travels up to the light (likely the focal point). The clouds then move the eyes towards the left to the tall cliff. Because the cliff goes out of the picture, the viewer looks down to continue the eye travel. From there the eyes goes back to the beginning. This creates a pattern of movement for the viewer to never leave the painting and I think that's just one of the reasons this painting works.

I left this in color on purpose. I was hoping to add some info on why I think the colors work, but that has escaped me for now. ;-)

Michele

[Sonni]

Actually...until I took a marker and scrap piece of paper...it did not occur to me the simple but sound composition Aspevig's darker accent marks and shapes are...and how just a touch of light value to suggest clouds or the larger mass of clouds are necessary to balance this out...


:

I agree, I saw that, too. The guy is sneaky :D ... I don't think it's very simple, though it looks simple. He uses "stops" and "pushes" in the lower part to keep the eye on the movement of the stream. He doesn't want you to get too sidetracked. Haven't analyzed the clouds too much. They obviously provide a balance along with a path, but I suspect if I really studied the painting, other stuff would appear.

Unable to leave it alone, and looking again. Repetition of pattern in the landscape is reflected in the clouds.

Am looking forward to tomorrow's session.

[painterted]

[QUOTE=Sonni]I agree, I saw that, too. The guy is sneaky :D ... I don't think it's very simple, though it looks simple. He uses "stops" and "pushes" in the lower part to keep the eye on the movement of the stream. He doesn't want you to get too sidetracked. Haven't analyzed the clouds too much. They obviously provide a balance along with a path, but I suspect if I really studied the painting, other stuff would appear.

Unable to leave it alone, and looking again. Repetition of pattern in the landscape is reflected in the clouds.










To me it looks as though the dark bushes on the left are used to balance the heavy clouds on the right.

[debra d.]

Please excuse, I feel I'm doing catch-up on this first lesson, and will be going back through to further study each post. I can see it will be very informative!!
As of late, I have been studying three of the masters, Rembrant, Homer, and Wyeth. I am intrigued with the way they can take a relatively mundane, unattractive scene, and give it life. Using mostly a monochromatic palette, values, and composition,they can bring such sensuality to a scene.
I seem to intuatively be able to work out compositions on complicated scenes, but I struggle with the simple ones.
I have posted a Rembrant, and what I got from it, then a scene I did using some of the same principles. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/130653-001_rem.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/130653-001.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/130653-straight_mountain_copy_resized.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Oct-2011/130653-straight_mountain.jpg I may have over simplified, any help would be appreciated.

[LarrySeiler]

As of late, I have been studying three of the masters, Rembrant, Homer, and Wyeth. I am intrigued with the way they can take a relatively mundane, unattractive scene, and give it life.


I like your thinking, Debra...and in the session called, "From the Literal to the Suggestive" I will be making a point how seeing the potential to make art from mundane subjects is a good builder/developer, even a test...for one's sense of improved use of color, brushwork, and most definitely composition...

Here is one example where locally, taking advantage of emerging greens of spring, or the annual dying of marsh grasses I take on one such subject. Driving by ditches, or culverts, ponds...or wetlands overlooked by most on the daily drive to work...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/532-artofmundane_grasses.jpg

Thing is...why I begin with composition and design with my series, when for many its either a given and something thought to have already been committed to learning years ago, or to some boring...is that once the eyes get a full sense of understanding, the art in the mundane, in the everyday things does not go by one's notice.

Not only does it liven up one's own world and aesthetic appreciation for living, but it gives you an added mission to awaken those in slumber living and working around you. To see, perhaps again...for the very first time!

The first one I find quite interesting. Typically in an asymmetrical fulcrum situation, the greater weight has bold presence up near the center (fulcrum), or ideally crosses the vertical central divide. Here...the large foreboding rock on the right might seem the main mass, but really...the larger weight is the incredible darks leading the eye out of the picture plane to the left.

It is as if the camera has zoomed in on the smaller weight, and the shadow of the big guy on the other side of the teeter totter is falling our way.

In the lower image...there just isn't enough happening, IMO to create eye movement, variation, intrigue...or interest to cause any kind of balancing. This is one of those paintings that will shoot an artist in the foot to do.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/532-horizontalstrap.jpg

Every plane is sitting neatly tucked in its own isolating rectangle of space with little juxtaposition or invading from one plane into the other.

In an age of image bombardment...without making major interpretive decisions and exercising artistic license...this one would be passed over. The burden lies upon us to make the necessary changes, or paint the obvious successful composition presented by nature...

[debra d.]

urggg...that fine line between eloquent simplicity and boring, is so frustrating! I would further love to discuss the options for this painting, but will wait with anticipation for the lesson.
Even though the words rip my heart out and make me want to cut off my ear...lol. I thank you, and look forward to tonights class!!

[pastelmimigt]

...
So...

Looking at Singer Sargents work, "The Oyster Gatherers of Concale" I squint my eyes, and try to understand the positive elements that Sargent orchestrated to attract the viewer's eye and lead, manipulate it thru the painting. How did he use these elements to establish visual balance? How does he use the elements to direct the eye to move throughout and around the picture without risking the eye leave the painting; always bring the eye back and around???

Larry

I'm really trying to understand this, so I decided to do as you said - SKETCH - and that's a BIG move for me, LOL (to do as the teacher says). :rolleyes: :wink2:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/78182-Money_-_The_Sea_at_Fecamp.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/78182-Money_-_The_Sea_at_Fecamp_-__sketch1.jpg

The positive elements that Monet painted are the rocks and land that direct the eyes around the painting:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/78182-Money_-_The_Sea_at_Fecamp_-__sketch1_-_directing.jpg

The next question I'd ask myself based on your notes in this thread is "How did he use these elements to establish visual balance?" I'd say with asymetry as the weight is definitely on the left side of the painting.

Michele

[LarrySeiler]

urggg...that fine line between eloquent simplicity and boring, is so frustrating! I would further love to discuss the options for this painting, but will wait with anticipation for the lesson.
Even though the words rip my heart out and make me want to cut off my ear...lol. I thank you, and look forward to tonights class!!

I'll be honest, Debra...not all artists are interested in competition, but one learns to have thick thick skin competing, let me tell you. Judges make no bones eliminating work, and when you ask later...they give it to ya straight.

If you put the time in, and you want to win...you want to hear it straight, and work on it. Okay...saying that, not all are interested in art competitions, but as painters if we want to win the eye of the viewer, we have to compete against everything that will work against that happening!

Its very possible that any of us have an emotional attachment to a location. And why not? If it brings us solace and peace of mind...but, as my near-mantra often says... "paintings work for reasons paintings work"...and in an image bombarded world, our own personal emotional attachment earns no obligation from any other. We have to "win" their interests...so the burden falls on us.

I never like putting it forth as an intent to disappoint, wound, make sad...but I am here for this series to tell it like it is, and to teach. I want you and everyone else to be successful...

[LarrySeiler]

How did he use these elements to establish visual balance?" I'd say with asymetry as the weight is definitely on the left side of the painting.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Michele

Like your attitude and determination, Michele...

Here is how I see it...and my lunch time now, so no time to draw and such...but quickly...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/532-michellewater.jpg

This is a case where the brushwork applied is done so rhythmically and with intent.

Notice the direction of the waves...notice the strokes of paint going vertical up the wall of the rock face, see the brushstrokes doing downward in the sky..

the heavy mass is as you note, the rock face on the far left...I submit, it is the break in the distant sky of strong light that balances the fulcrum of this asymmetry..

Note though how compelling the eye is directed by the direction of the brushstrokes...

[Judibelle]

Have to admit...my 'brain is so loaded it's nearly exploding'.....trying to figure out how to use the editing things...I have Picasa, just now figured out how to see in gray-scale....very limited in other editing factors.

Been doing a lot of examining the samples posted, That has helped my 'seeing' a lot.

Looking foward to tonight's class, for sure.

[pastelmimigt]

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure I understand your statement:

"the heavy mass is as you note, the rock face on the far left...I submit, it is the break in the distant sky of strong light that balances the fulcrum of this asymmetry.."

Michele

[LarrySeiler]

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure I understand your statement:

"the heavy mass is as you note, the rock face on the far left...I submit, it is the break in the distant sky of strong light that balances the fulcrum of this asymmetry.."

Michele


okay...you had said, "I'd say with asymetry as the weight is definitely on the left side of the painting."

and I am agreeing...the power of that break in the sky, balancing out the much larger element of that far left side...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/532-asymmetry_michelle.jpg

[seagrape]

I tried to post a photo of one of my latest paintings but was unable due to being a newbie. I very much enjoyed the composition workshop and am looking forward to tonights session..............Joyce from Belize

[seagrape]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/956206-Mangos_3.jpg
Ok got the image to load. Painting is in oils. To me this composition flows from the center to the left upper mango and the to the lower right. The balance seems good but topheavy. What are your thoughts........ Joyce from Belize

[crazywoman53]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/137465-Monets_dahlias.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/137465-Monets_dahlias2.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/137465-Monet_sketch.jpg

Here is my contribution.. better late then never. The thirds indicating placement of center of interest. The eye flow to me appears to be circular and the sketch is the larger dark mass on the left balancing the smaller one on the right. I think.?? Seeing more and more of these is making it a little easier to understand than initially viewed. I also see he put one lighter grey tree almost not even there on the left vertical line that balances the COI.

[Tresgatos]

Hi Larry,

I did manage to do an analysis of Monet's painting of his wife and son "Madam Monet".

Here is the painting in color
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/113757-MADAM_MONET_AND_SON_BY_MONET_-_FOR_LARRY_SEILER_CLASS.jpg





Here it is in grey
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/113757-B_AND_W__-__MADAM_MONET_AND_SON_BY_MONET_-_FOR_LARRY_SEILER_CLASS.jpg




Here is my analysis

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/113757-Analysis_of_Madam_Monet_and_Son.jpg

[LarrySeiler]

Here is my analysis

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/113757-Analysis_of_Madam_Monet_and_Son.jpg

very good...yes, and I think the darker sky merging farther down in the upper right, the shape of the lighter clouds cement directing the eye down to cause that circle movement.

very good...nailed it I think!!!

[LarrySeiler]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/137465-Monet_sketch.jpg


good...and I think that line of shadow beneath the front lower flowerbed contributes...more subtle but important.

Good...

[LarrySeiler]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/956206-Mangos_3.jpg
Ok got the image to load. Painting is in oils. To me this composition flows from the center to the left upper mango and the to the lower right. The balance seems good but topheavy. What are your thoughts........ Joyce from Belize

where so much of the canvas is taken up by similar shapes, subject matter, color...I like to see more variation. It may be more a personal thing, but also I believe greater intrigue that captures the viewer's eye.

Something like casting surrounding areas into shadow...and more drama- (done with shoddy speed digitally, but I think you can get the gist of what I'm saying...)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/532-joycebelize.jpg

[sugarbear]

My analysis will appear as soon as I tackle some computer problems.

[pastelmimigt]

where so much of the canvas is taken up by similar shapes, subject matter, color...I like to see more variation. It may be more a personal thing, but also I believe greater intrigue that captures the viewer's eye.

Something like casting surrounding areas into shadow...and more drama- (done with shoddy speed digitally, but I think you can get the gist of what I'm saying...)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2011/532-joycebelize.jpg

Thanks for the great tip!!

Michele

[sugarbear]

Need your comments on this painting:

This Monet first attracted me by the strong 's' movements through the painting accomplished by the clouds and curve in the coastline, location of tallest white sailing ship--mostly done by light values. The value drawing shows pretty flat to me because of very little darks, although there are some.

Balance: seems to be balanced, left vs right. The gorgeous turquoise seems to make the mid and foreground advance so that the horizon line being very close to the middle of the canvas is not boring??

Rule of 3's: ?? The focal interests seem to work (group of people on bank, white sails, and white clouds) but do not seem to be at the intersections on the grid. They are, however, doing their job by attracting the eye and are a part of the eye movement through painting.

[Lynn Quinn]

Hi all, I'm pretty late with last weekend's homework, but here goes.
Just realized I forgot to put in the rule-of-thirds grid lines, but I think we can all figure out where they go.

First the painting - J.S. Sargent, Home fields, 1885:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Oct-2011/54226-Sargent,_Home_Fields_1885.jpg

Sargent does some interesting (and odd) things compositionally - for a good discussion of these, you can go to http://thomaskitts.blogspot.com/2010/11/home

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Oct-2011/54226-scan0002.jpg

Hmmm, in the sketch, I made the shed roof too dark, and some of the other darks too light. Also, I didn't shade in the lightest tones in the grass, which are actually midtones. So the lightest values are the sky, the fence and the shed. This is (to me) a complex enough image that I'm having some difficulty determining ratios of light to mid to dark tones. Maybe something like half light, 3/16 midtones, and 5/16 darks ...???

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Oct-2011/54226-scan0001.jpg

Sorry I couldn't find a red marker - had to make do with a red ballpoint pen, to indicate how I'm guessing the eye travels through the painting (never been good at this - not sure my eyes do what everyone else's do!). Anyway, I think my eye follows the fence line up to the shed (which is very oddly placed on the extreme right edge. Then it follows the strong horizontal line of trees/horizon/distant buildings, etc., over to the slightly more curvy tree on the left, and down to the shadow Sargent has apparently painted of himself!

Speaking of shadows, the tree shadows are diagonals converging (roughly) 1/3 of the way in from the left, of the tree line (also 1/3 of the way down from the top). The diagonals of the fence, and of its shadow go the other direction, to lead you over to the shed, which, of course, is on the horiz line, 1/3 of the way down from the top.

[LarrySeiler]

Need your comments on this painting:

This Monet first attracted me by the strong 's' movements through the painting accomplished by the clouds and curve in the coastline, location of tallest white sailing ship--mostly done by light values. The value drawing shows pretty flat to me because of very little darks, although there are some.

Balance: seems to be balanced, left vs right. The gorgeous turquoise seems to make the mid and foreground advance so that the horizon line being very close to the middle of the canvas is not boring??

Rule of 3's: ?? The focal interests seem to work (group of people on bank, white sails, and white clouds) but do not seem to be at the intersections on the grid. They are, however, doing their job by attracting the eye and are a part of the eye movement through painting.

its interesting how much Monet enjoys spreading his elements out wide and far, and yet pulls it all together. Good one..

curious if you have an image editing program, where you can flatten layers, or save as a "jpeg"..?? Then you can easily enough upload so folks can see images right here in the forum...

[LarrySeiler]

First the painting - J.S. Sargent, Home fields, 1885:

we could have a smorgasbord with this painting alone...! Love this Sargent piece, so rich in color and value...and your leading line in well noted...hooking us left, while directing us right...great piece...much to study in this one!

[Gribbey]

This thread is fabulous. So much information here.
I am submitting The Haywain by Constable because I would like to learn about unity and multiple focal points. He always seems to have many things going on so the paintings could be cropped into several. Not necessarily a bad thing eh?
I think the unity in his work is usually based on dividing the land and the sky - dark and light. There certainly are lights in the dark but the large areas at some point get my attention and I see those big shapes- which make the atmosphere, don't they?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Oct-2011/970132-Haywain-large.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Oct-2011/970132-haywainvalues.jpg


Another thing- about direction of the eye- we follow the path, the stream from the bottom usually because that is natural, like in nature we would do that. We see receding planes because that too is natural and the verticals are attractive because they are something in an otherwise flat-ish land, generally speaking. But, I am wondering if sometimes the eye just goes to something in the middle of the canvas and doesn't start on an edge- just boom, into the action at centre of interest, and for myself I am calling it 'centre of interest' rather than focal point. The notion of focal point threw me off- like cross your eyes? Nope.
So far in looking back on my work with composition in mind, I am liking the crops better than the whole paintings, maybe because of bits of flow here and there but also because my objective for overall unity has not often succeeded. I think I can safely say that this workshop had helped me and will continue to help.
ps. I was looking for thirds in my work and often enough not finding quite that. Instead though, I find golden ratio placement. It is close but not the same. I was so relieved to realize that that was what I was doing- here and there. It is similar in that it gets you out of the middle but a slightly different system in that it is not regular divisions, not quite on the thirds. I have been such a self-taught non- analytical painter for years now. I do things paint-wise habitually, but I don't know how to talk about them! I am very much looking forward to the next sessions. Thanks Larry!

[Landscape22]

I've been infatuated with this Aspevig piece for days now thanks to this thread. I've seen many of his pieces and this one in particular is especially captivating. I can't figure out what is drawing me into this piece so much, but I really like it!!!!! Anyway, some great conversation on this thread and thanks for the intro to On A Good Year.