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Johannes Instructor
01-31-2011, 02:31 PM
Use this thread for asking Johannes questions relative to creating art. This is not for asking questions about webinar procedures and registration. We keep this exclusively to art.

Johannes Instructor
01-31-2011, 05:25 PM
General questions that came up in the web class that I did not answer orally:
Q: Is there ever an appropriate time to use "cloning" or repetition in a painting?Repetition creates rhythm which is good but there should be variances in these repetitions not cloned repetitions. Example if we have a deep forest scene and we see several long vertical tree trunks. These should be done where we vary their diameters, colors, and angle of leaning, the distances between them, etc. However the rhythm is established by the repetitions of these vertical movements as long as no tree trunk runs parallel to another.
Q: Should we modify the photo with photoshop filters?We should use as many tools as possible to end up with the best end result. What counts is the final art work not how you got there. No such thing as cheating in this.
Q: are you suggesting to push colors to make it more interesting? If we listen to nature and its sounds such as a crashing wave, the roar of wind, the birds singing, etc. All this is beautiful. However we humans want more and we want to express and communicate with each other. We create songs that are more beautiful than nature don't we? Think of your painting like that. It is a personal poetical message. Color just like musical instruments are our tools to convey this wonderful message. Nature produces many dull monochromatic colors. If we add more flavor to this it will be like hearing a crashing wave in the background while listening to instrumental music.
Q: Is it normal to not be activated by mods at wetcanvas after 2 days still? I'm logged in but can't post or anything, sadlySorry this is out of my hands. [ EDIT: Mods can't do this either. The F&W rep does it, and sometimes there is a backlog caused by spambots and holidays.]
Q: so would you be better off never to do this photo ? The answer to this should come as a result of this course. It would be interesting if in 12 weeks you asked that question again. I bet you won't ask it again because you will know the answer.
Q: Do these properties apply to pictures taking indoors as well as outdoors? Like animals and stuff taken inside vs outside. As far as color/value issues.Animals are usually depicted in realism so the values and form should be identical to real life. It is what surrounds them where we play with the shapes, form and values.
Q: Does a good painting look better when you stand back from it than right under your nose?Paintings should be done with the best look as they would appear from normal viewpoint the viewer is normally positioned in, such as his living room couch. Probably 5 to10 feet away. Some artists joke that they wish they could attach their brush to a broom stick to get the right view. Some instructors place a chair between their students and their easel. I have seen Jim Wilcox paint quite a few times and he will step back as often as every minute or so. Just a few strokes and then he steps back 2 or three steps. Hey! Now I know why he eats so much chocolate! That's because he is burning he calories with the workout.
Q: should we be looking for an overall shape to the entire painting or a series of shapes and how do we put them together?This will be answered when we get to the mass planning and shape lesson.
Q: Do you need to show the lights and darks in landscape including the trees?Many top artists are leaning more towards and overall mid value. I am following this as well and I feel my paintings have improve dramatically when this was revealed to me.
Q: Any chance you will discuss the Munsell color system., or could we discuss it later?Hopefully we can dedicate a day to answering nuts and bolts once I get the majority of the info out on this specific course. I will keep this question in mind.
Q: how do we measure landscapes to get right perspective?
Linear perspective is not a concern in wild landscape painting. As long as the end of a lake or ocean horizon line agrees with the viewers' horizontal line we are ok.
Q: can i know what medium r u going to demo ,maybe i can go with you painting
I will try to do some paint-a-long's in the future if F&W will have me.
Q: You talk about cloning yet painting a vineyard certainly has its parallel shapes to make sure it IS a vineyard - same in an orchard.
We do what we can to offset boring repetitions. There are ways such as casting shadows over areas of a vineyard etc to change the look.
Q: So far Johannes' comments work where the background has v ariation. Out here on the prairies we are flat = flat m, flat for 360degrees. How do you avoid the flatness and is it proper to do so?
Check out some of Clyde Aspevig's work. He likes to paint flat prairies.

Johannes Instructor
01-31-2011, 07:18 PM
Q: ?? Where can I find a good, free, photostock on Internet?
flickr.com is the best

Q: A lot of photos contain few clouds... do you like to add clouds? Or when should you add clouds?
The rule of thumb for me is that if the sky portion is small we leave clouds out so it won't get busy. The bigger you make the sky, the more interest you need to add. The only things we can do to make a sky interesting is adding clouds or different colors. However this is not because of what is in the photo. It is because I want it that way in the painting. The photo is not my boss. I am. On an 18 by 24 inch painting, if you have more than 4 square inches of nothingness, you've created a dead spot.

Q: Would the trees in a violet make a better background?
Yes, violet is a great resource to make yellow greens works and create atmospheric perspective. If you look at Richard McKinley's pastels you will see how he exploits violets well.

Q: are you considering your water line the lead in on this one?
Water lines make great lead ins.

Q: Could a strong Skyscape have three planes of clouds within the sky and the sliver of land as foreground?
Yes, great question. The sky is a dome and as such would have a recession into the distance.
The following principles apply:
The fluffy white part of the clouds get warmer as they go further back. In the painting that would be near the horizon.
The reverse is true that the for the shadow blue gray areas of the clouds. They get lighter and cooler into the distance.
The blue sky (no clouds) is darker and cooler at the zenith and this blue sky becomes warmer and lighter (more greenish, pink or orange) as it gets closer to the horizon.
Finally due to size perspective, clouds get smaller near the horizon, bigger at the zenith.

Q: should one of the converging lines dominate?
yes

Q: can you send out an email of value scale?
Easy to find on internet. Don't trust its print out.

Q: As a rule, how many values should there be in a painting?
I would aim for 7 values (2 to 8) and ignore the two last black ones. The third darkest value (8) I reserve for accents not general shapes. If I have water foam, snow or clouds I add the lightest value #1.
Notice my value scale is reversed when compared to other value scales. I assighn 1 as white and 10 as black.

Q: I can easily distinguish values when in black and white but have difficulties with color. Would the secret to learning to do underspaintings?
Thats a fantastic question. We all have problems determining what value a colors is because the chroma throws us off. That's why most artists think in 6 values but plan their masses into 3 predominat values. An underpainting in the correct grayscale value (usually a warm brown) is excellent to start with a good value plan. I will talk much more on this in upcoming web classes.

Q: I have heard repeating shapes held the painting together. Can you explain the diff between clones and keeping the painting together with similar shapes?
You answered your own question!

Q: do you collect photos of buildings, shacks, barns, trees etc. so when you are working on a piece and need to add an element, you have something to go to?
Yes, I have a landscape model agency. I have a hobby called, shape collecting. I have trees, rocks, bridges, etc. as super models.

Q: You talked about using a digital photo and how it removes a lot of the color balance. Does this still happen with a Manual or Film Camera that does not have a digital component?
The problem is much worse in any printed photo. At least digital does not use ink or black or any chemical reaction that will alter the colors and values.

Q: What about painting well known landmarks like the Rock of Gibraltar that you cannot make melodic lines without distorting the structure?
You can do what you want. The painting is your world. Yet for sales purposes as long as the image is recognizable anything goes. People do not memorize exact lines and shapes. If the customer will make a literal comparison between the real object and your painting, I would ditch him. In fact, any protrusion that is repeated or symetrical should be removed. Jim Wilcox who I know very well paints the famous Tetons over and over. There is no way he copies every ridge and exact proportions. I know this as a fact. I have painted the Tetons along side of him.

Q: By raising the height of the mountain to the top of your paper and eliminating the one of the hills do we change proportions and is this something we will cover later?
This aspect is one of the keys to successful landscapes and as such will be dealt with thoroughly.

Q: When you increase the size of certain objects in your photograph do you then have a problem with proportions???
No, because you decrease another shape to make up for it.

Q: Is pastel good to do drawing for watercolors as well? Does it resist watercolor on top?
Hey, you just gave me an idea. I only used pencil. I gotta try that.

Q: So many helpful guidelines, but how does one avoid painting in a way that becomes formulaic and predictable? Thank you, Gina
Nothing is more forumlaic then copying a photo.

Q: even if you ceated different lines in the sage brush, do you fel that a veiwer is invited walking on top of all of that sage brush to get to the house?
He will follow the line that meets the ground. This of course happens subconsciously and subtley.

Q: what should be the value for foreground, middle ground and back ground
Will be answered in detail in upcoming classes.

Q: Since things that are closest see the sharpest detail, is it okay to put sharp detail at the bottom of the painting.
Not true. It where the eye is focusing. Do the test yourself. Hold two pens one in each hand. Stretch your arm out as far as you can holding one pen and bring the other pen closer to you. Stare at the pen that is further from you without moving your eyes. See if you can see the detail of the pen closer to you. One of my classes will deal with the concept, painting the way the eye sees. This is a revelation to make the painting agree with the human eye. This concept is rarely taught. I actually emphasize that the immediate foreground should be left alone.

Q: Can' t the rocks also be arranged as a lead in?
Yes, we use whatever we can to create lead ins.

Q: I would like to know what you do with things cut off by the picture edge, like a bush or tree
My policy is to crop the tree either 1/3 or 2/3. Never in the middle.

Q: I am not familar with all this computer work, as an artist do you reccomend taking computer courses to help your art
No, all you need is the simple tools that you can understand by fiddling around. I never took a computer course.

Q: What is the focal point - or how do I handle images with no clear focal point?
You don't need a focal point as long as you move the viewer around the painting enough.

Q: should the viewer's eye not be allowed to leave the painting?
The viewers eye should not be allowed to leave the painting too soon by creating a linear moment towards the edge on the right and left. If you can get the viewer to exit the painting through the very back, that's the best way. If you look at Waterhouse's paintings he tends to add a sky gap somewhere so the viewer does not feel trapped like a bird in a cage.

Q: In a marine seascape, how does one create a background , if not the sky?
As soon as you add several layers of waves you are creating planes. The beach would be considered the foreground.

Q: What if you're painting a portrait, say of a couple. There's just the couple in the foregound and then the wall, say behind, is the background. Is this therefore boring? Should try to put in an interesting background?
Personally, I oppose boring backgrounds that are flat with no color or value variation as negative spaces for flowers or portraits. If you look at Harley Brown's portraits or Pino's paintings you will see exciting backgrounds.

Cosi
01-31-2011, 09:06 PM
How do you paint ice crystals on trees?

jmcedeno
01-31-2011, 09:59 PM
I struggle determining the value of a color hue in the value scale, I'm thinking of doing an exercise that it might help me but would like to know your opinion:
On a white board I will paint swatches of pure color as it comes out of the tube, then take a digital photo and put it in Photoshop and by removing the color I will have all swatches in grey scale, then (I think) I'll be able to compare it with the value scale. Is this the right thing to do?

jmcedeno
01-31-2011, 10:15 PM
How can I ask a question in class, I do not know where should I click on the webinar screen. In justin.tv I was able to ask and get instant reply from you and other students in the room.

Johannes Instructor
01-31-2011, 10:22 PM
I struggle determining the value of a color hue in the value scale, I'm thinking of doing an exercise that it might help me but would like to know your opinion:
On a white board I will paint swatches of pure color as it comes out of the tube, then take a digital photo and put it in Photoshop and by removing the color I will have all swatches in grey scale, then (I think) I'll be able to compare it with the value scale. Is this the right thing to do? We all have problems with determining value from color.It is good to train yourself to guess the right value. Make it easy for yourself when starting this exercise. See which of the 3 values your mixture will be between mid light, mid and mid dark. Then try to guess which value it is of the six taking into account that mid dark is values 2,3...mid value 4,5 mid dark 6,7 = six, However, when painting trained artists basically focus on 3 values. They think... is it a lighter mid,.... mid.......or darker mid? Whatever falls in between is unplanned. It is easy to guess a value 2 and a value 7 or 8 . The ones in between is the hard part. Now taking photos to compare values is not a good idea because the camera will lie. I suggest you buy a value scale in your art store and place that next to the colors and squint your eyes until the intensity of colors is gone. You can trust a purchased value scale.
Note: in my references value 10 is black, value 1 is white.

Johannes Instructor
01-31-2011, 10:39 PM
How can I ask a question in class, I do not know where should I click on the webinar screen. In justin.tv I was able to ask and get instant reply from you and other students in the room.
Next to the question tab in the webinar panel there is a little gray arrow on the left. Click on that to open the questions box.

wetbob
02-01-2011, 05:56 AM
On a white board I will paint swatches of pure color as it comes out of the tube, then take a digital photo and put it in Photoshop and by removing the color I will have all swatches in grey scale
You may take a black&white photo or look at the screen of your camera in black &white



fm100 hue discrimination test
"The FM 100 Hue Test is a seemingly simple test of your ability to discern close hue relationships, a sort of “color IQ test”.

The interactive is provided by x-rite, a company that makes Munsell-based color measurement products."

http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=77

I saw this in the color section from robotus. May be other value tests on the www?

jmcedeno
02-01-2011, 12:18 PM
You may take a black&white photo or look at the screen of your camera in black &white



I saw this in the color section from robotus. May be other value tests on the www?

Thank you very much for your answer, I'll try it.

Next to the question tab in the webinar panel there is a little gray arrow on the left. Click on that to open the questions box.

Thank you Johannes, I did not notice it I'll look for it next Saturday.

We all have problems with determining value from color.It is good to train yourself to guess the right value. Make it easy for yourself when starting this exercise. See which of the 3 values your mixture will be between mid light, mid and mid dark. Then try to guess which value it is of the six taking into account that mid dark is values 2,3...mid value 4,5 mid dark 6,7 = six, However, when painting trained artists basically focus on 3 values. They think... is it a lighter mid,.... mid.......or darker mid? Whatever falls in between is unplanned. It is easy to guess a value 2 and a value 7 or 8 . The ones in between is the hard part. Now taking photos to compare values is not a good idea because the camera will lie. I suggest you buy a value scale in your art store and place that next to the colors and squint your eyes until the intensity of colors is gone. You can trust a purchased value scale.
Note: in my references value 10 is black, value 1 is white.
Thank you Johannes, I'll begin practicing, today.

Johannes Instructor
02-01-2011, 09:31 PM
Just to let you know that I have removed all the links for downloads of materials of webinars etc from previous classes I did before I entered the agreement with F&W those have been gone. The only materials that will be available from here on are the web classes from January 29, 2011 to April 17 that can be acquired thru ArtistsNetwork. I will let you know when these are available.

brookstream
02-02-2011, 09:38 PM
What is the best way to develop a pallette? I have noticed that some colors go better with others (opposites on the color wheel etc)...just wanted your thoughts.

Johannes Instructor
02-03-2011, 09:20 AM
What is the best way to develop a pallette? I have noticed that some colors go better with others (opposites on the color wheel etc)...just wanted your thoughts.
Mamy professionals work with a very limited palette for landscapes. Here is a limited palette I would suggest for young artists

ultramarine blue
Indian yellow
Indian red
yellow ochre pale
burnt sienna
titanium white

You can buy student quality paint for the Indian yellow and indian red
If this is for watercolor I would change indian yellow to transparent yellow and yellow ochre pale to raw sienna

Davkin
02-03-2011, 09:29 AM
Very similar to the palette I chose. I think a limited palette is even better for beginners, too many colors can be confusing. I think a beginner should master a limited palette like this before adding more tube colors. Nearly any color you might need can be made with a limited palette, once mastered a limited palette can be expanded but mainly for convenience sake. What I also like is the simplicity and economy of a limited palette.

David

Nansketch
02-03-2011, 08:43 PM
Johannes, Though watching your oil paint demo a week or so ago, was very tempting, I am more comfortable with pastels - do you suggest a limited palette for pastel users? similar to the color range listed above?

Thanks
Nancy

Johannes Instructor
02-03-2011, 09:23 PM
Very similar to the palette I chose. I think a limited palette is even better for beginners, too many colors can be confusing. I think a beginner should master a limited palette like this before adding more tube colors. Nearly any color you might need can be made with a limited palette, once mastered a limited palette can be expanded but mainly for convenience sake. What I also like is the simplicity and economy of a limited palette.

David
Pat on the back for you Dave

Johannes Instructor
02-03-2011, 09:31 PM
Johannes, Though watching your oil paint demo a week or so ago, was very tempting, I am more comfortable with pastels - do you suggest a limited palette for pastel users? similar to the color range listed above?

Thanks
Nancy
no, buy as many colors you can afford. The less mixing the less mud. All bets are off for pastels when it comes to limited palette.

susanc
02-04-2011, 11:20 AM
Hi Johannes,

I was looking at a blog and the artist said she wished she could get the back of her lake to lie down. I smugly thought, "I've got that one!", but in searching my notes and memory, I've got nothing! I live near a lake and will probably have the same problem. Is it just temperature and value gradation that does it, or is there even more to it than that? Thanks!

hewill4giveu
02-04-2011, 11:45 AM
Johannes I have noticed on here there are a lot of beginners like myself. Im wondering if you would ever think about doing some classes for us on the basics. These lessons can be applied no matter what level. But i feel there is much more of the basics i personally could use and is why i seem to struggle. Some times i feel like a child that im trying to run before i have learned to crawl or walk. I read anything and everything i can on art. When im physically unable to be painting im researching all i can. BUT there is nothing like your teaching and seeing it put into practice and yes the whys of what your doing. Just wondering?

susanc
02-04-2011, 02:23 PM
Johannes I have noticed on here there are a lot of beginners like myself. Im wondering if you would ever think about doing some classes for us on the basics. These lessons can be applied no matter what level. But i feel there is much more of the basics i personally could use and is why i seem to struggle. Some times i feel like a child that im trying to run before i have learned to crawl or walk. I read anything and everything i can on art. When im physically unable to be painting im researching all i can. BUT there is nothing like your teaching and seeing it put into practice and yes the whys of what your doing. Just wondering?
Teresa, I agree that Johannes has a real gift for explaining things so they can be more easily understood--and a lot of things we didn't know that we didn't know, as mcbru rightly pointed out earlier. I was reading a blog that said that Camille Przewodek looks at a student's palette before she looks at their painting, because she can determine "what they don't know" better that way. The blog explained, "For example, if we are in the habit of mixing separate little piles of color (and values) all over the palette, it will translate to poor value and color relationships in the painting." I thought "What?! No one ever mentioned that to me and I have a degree in art!"

In the meantime, you might find this quote reassuring (I did!):
"Color is an inborn gift, but appreciation of value is merely training of the eye, which everyone ought to be able to acquire"...John Singer Sargeant

Everyone! I love his choice of word there!

Johannes Instructor
02-04-2011, 03:48 PM
Johannes I have noticed on here there are a lot of beginners like myself. Im wondering if you would ever think about doing some classes for us on the basics. These lessons can be applied no matter what level. But i feel there is much more of the basics i personally could use and is why i seem to struggle. Some times i feel like a child that im trying to run before i have learned to crawl or walk. I read anything and everything i can on art. When im physically unable to be painting im researching all i can. BUT there is nothing like your teaching and seeing it put into practice and yes the whys of what your doing. Just wondering?
The only classes I can do from now on is under F&W media's partnership. If they will continue having me in the future, I am willing. This photo course however is very good if you have never painted because it will get you off to the right start to understand, lines shapes and values. Just hang int there we are working our way up.

susanc
02-04-2011, 04:37 PM
I have been all over the internet, searching for palette organization beyond, "Put your paints in the same place on your palette every time you paint". Nothing so far. Maybe that palette advice I found was just Camille's preference? I think some things in art sometimes come down to personal preference?

hewill4giveu
02-04-2011, 09:08 PM
Thanks Johannes you couldnt get rid of me if you tried. It may take me a little longer to get where i want but im on this journey for keeps. I love it. I am LEARNING ever time i watch your videos and im applying it to paintings im doing. I just dont post them because there just not even close to what i want from myself I just do them over and over and over until i cant take doing them any more. Strange tho i see improvements each time. Thank you. Cant wait until tommarrow and sunday too. See ya there

maxdawn
02-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Where do I upload my photos
Maxine

wetbob
02-05-2011, 05:34 PM
I want to paint a quick one in about 3 hours. How do i (you) start. Crop the photo in mind? Crop it in a quick sketch. I ve done it 2 times with a quick sketch, and saw that it went wrong only after a long time (not applying the rules). How long do you have to think over the sketch in relation to the 3 hours?

Sunny7
02-05-2011, 05:43 PM
Thanks so much for these classes! I am learning so much.

Sunny7

MelissaShelly
02-05-2011, 05:44 PM
I am trying to post a comment and i"m not sure how to do this?? I don't know which message I am replying to....

susanc
02-05-2011, 09:14 PM
Where do I upload my photos
Maxine
Hi! One way to find the "front page" listing of all Johannes' class related threads is by going to the top of this page, and looking on the left side for WetCanvas > Explore Subjects > Landscapes > Partner: WetCanvas Live!

Click on Partner: WetCanvas Live! and you're there. Scroll down until you find the thread labeled Post your cropped photos thread You'll also find almost everything else you need to access for the class there--handouts, notes, etc.

I used to give specific links, but they often get buried in the threads so fast, they become pointless and don't really help you learn to get around by yourself in here. (OK, it's http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=882712 ) :) But do try out clicking on "Partner: WetCanvas Live! so you can see all of Johannes' threads listed there. Bookmark it, add it to favorites, or if you're in any Johannes-related thread like this one, you can just click on Partner:WetCavas Live! at the top to get there again.

susanc
02-05-2011, 09:30 PM
I am trying to post a comment and i"m not sure how to do this?? I don't know which message I am replying to....
Hi! If you want to specifically reply to a certain message, find that message and click on the "Quote" button in the lower right corner of that message. (See how it quoted you above when I did that?) If you're not commenting on something specific that someone said, then you can just type what you want to say in the "Quick reply" box at the bottom, after the last post.

To reply in style with all the little smilies inserts :thumbsup: and also the photo upload options, click on either the "Post Reply" button at the bottom left of the last post, or click on the "Go advanced" button inside the "Quick reply" box.

sue burke
02-05-2011, 10:18 PM
Can we use photos from the Wetcanvas reference library for the homework assignments?

Johannes Instructor
02-05-2011, 11:37 PM
Can we use photos from the Wetcanvas reference library for the homework assignments?
Sure eventhough personal photos are better because one is somewhat emotionally connected to them. But I do paintings many times from photos that are not mine.

laudesan
02-06-2011, 12:19 AM
Sorry I missed Saturdays Webinar. I forgot to set my alarm for 6.00am

bobeva melaine
02-06-2011, 05:50 PM
You e mailed the hand outs from last week end, I missed sat class but am interested in having the nuts and bolts hand out I saw on Sunday. Where can we find it? Thx

MRSBB
02-06-2011, 06:03 PM
I painted the same photo you were doing in class along with you . Am I allowed to show it in the critique area?

Nahant
02-06-2011, 06:04 PM
Johannes,
The demo was great! Would you please speak to the various brushes you use and your technique for paint application> Many thanks...learning so much!

Betty

Scotkatidid
02-06-2011, 06:30 PM
Johannes I think your webcam video of you painting a landscape was fantastic! I learned a lot from this. but only hope that I can retain it - also will we be getting a pdf regarding "Nuts and Bolts"? Thanks again, looking so forward to next week...Kate

pat-trew
02-06-2011, 06:35 PM
How can I upload the reference pictures and the cropped picture?

Johannes Instructor
02-06-2011, 06:45 PM
I painted the same photo you were doing in class along with you . Am I allowed to show it in the critique area?
yes of course

Analia
02-06-2011, 07:14 PM
Johannes, will you post somewhere the finished demo painting? I had to leave when you were adding the final details in the mountain on the upper right side, and would like to see it completed.
Thanks very much, really enjoyed the class!

Johannes Instructor
02-06-2011, 08:20 PM
Q: What about restful places for your eye to rest? When Jo was referring to the boring square in the photo of the lake and boats.

We need to differentiate between a dead area in a painting a rest area. A rest area which is suitably placed just before the focal area creates a good contrast between what would be the busy part of a focal area compared to the restful part. Placing a foursquare inch square where nothing is changing puts a coffin in the painting. A rest area does not mean there should not be variation of color or value.
Q: If you were doing plein air Johannes would you apply the same principal of zooming in?

There’s no difference in the concept of cropping in plein air painting or cropping a photograph. All the same principles apply universally to both. The issue is we are still limited by four straight lines and whenever we put in inside those straight lines has to fit comfortably in an interesting fashion, which means the principles of cropping will apply.

Q: but what if you love the tower? It has personal history for you? How would you do it - would you severely crop?

You as the artist can paint whatever you want. If you want to paint symmetrical shapes because it has a personal history for you then consider you are painting for yourself. For me painting a perfect rectangle such as the building we saw in the photograph is beating a dead horse. I can somewhat disguise somewhat a straight lines by adding vines or flowers to that side but not enough to offset an entire rectangle. Any symmetrical shapes when placed against another area that becomes the negative shape will increase the problem two fold.

Q: Could you arrange the evergreens in the front to make a lead in?
The idea is to arrange anything that would appear in nature to create a lead in.

Q: If Joe doesn't cover all that he wants in the 12 weeks, will he extend the classes?
It all depends on you. You the students will make the difference if enough materials are purchased.

Q: How would you go about making rounded mountains (big hills) interesting and yet representational of an area's nature?
The whole point of my course is to get us out of the idea that we are to copy things from nature. The idea is to represent nature using a pictorial language of shapes and forms, depicted in a poetic way. Just because there’s a round hill in nature does not mean that we must copy that. Because if I go to another location I can find another hill or mountain that has a fantastic graceful line as I read it from left to right. If the top of my hill ends up being the crust of a pizza slice even though I’m representing what might seem to be real life it will take a huge toll on my painting.

Q: i see this picture has a heavy weight at the right side ,what is your opinion about the weight at 1 side of a painting?
Pictorial balance is important by distributing the weights of the subjects that appear in the painting. The rule of thumb is that the darker the object is the heavier it is. It is not the actual square inches of an element that creates the weight on one side are another. It is how dark it is that adds weight to the site of a painting. A painting should not have a 50/50 weight distribution on both sides. Anything that is 50-50 starts to compete.

Q: Why is that so many juried shows accept paintings that do not display any of these tips you've given?
I don’t know what shows you were talking about. But if you study the top artists all these principles than I am discussing do apply. Unfortunately because of copyrights I cannot display examples of this in the web class. What I am teaching is universal. If I come up with a technique myself I will specify. If I don’t specify it is a universal concept that all top artists use. An example of this is that when I refer to not repeating corners, I believe that’s my own concept.

Q: Why do you use Indian red
I prefer Indian red because it is a more natural color. Alizarin crimson and cadmium red do not appear in nature. However you will see Indian red in rocks. Autumn foliage is better represented using Indian red plus yellow ochre pale then using garish hues such as cadmium red and Alizarin crimson. In general I feel that novice artists overstate the saturation of colors and need to learn to work within the grays.

Q: Does the concept of white things further away being warmer in tone apply to clouds as well?
Yes, the white fluffy areas of clouds closer to the horizon become warmer, meaning they take on a yellow orange or even orange hue depending how late it gets in the afternoon. White is the only color that does not respect the average rules of atmosphere perspective in which colors become cooler and lighter in the distance.

Q: but can you use acrylics as an underpainting under oils?
According to Winsor and Newton you can do in underpainting with acrylics as long as the layer is thin. Because a lot of artists struggle with multi layers of paint I would recommend starting out the block in with acrylics and then follow up with oils on top. The same would apply to watercolor because it is such a difficult medium you can do and underpainting with watercolor and then follow up with pastel on top of that. As far as I’m concerned that’s a suitable way.

Q: Johannes, you reference photo is "uncropped". Are you just cropping it "in your head", as you paint?
I purposely displayed the uncropped photo so that you could see how I changed it . The painting I did did show a cropped representation of the photo.

Q: You say you use viridian green, but it's not included in the recommended palette list
I use an extended palette to save mixing time. The limited palette that I mentioned was for people that get confused in early stages of their painting. The mistake I see with many artists is that they place too many colors on their palette thinking it will help them but the contrary is true. Working with a simple palette gives us fewer strings to which we can play the guitar, figuratively speaking.

Q: Why not start with the sky?
Many instructors teach clichés that have no practical application and box themselves and their students into useless rules. Painting the sky in first just for the sake of it means nothing, unless of course we’re talking about watercolor. I teach my students to snap masses and shapes into the painting like pieces of a puzzle. The more you think about a puzzle the better you will design it.
Q:The demo was great! Would you please speak to the various brushes you use and your technique for paint application> Many thanks...learning so much!
There are so many professional quality brushes on the market. I prefer to use brights. I don’t like the flimsy flat brushes. But I don’t particularily buy the most expensive ones either because I beat them up quite a bit. Many times I paint pushing the bristles the opposite way which splays them. Regarding paint application, I really prefer dry brushing to break up the paint to indicate leaves, grass ,etc. I also do a lot of negative painting to carve out shapes.

laudesan
02-06-2011, 10:53 PM
:crying: I slept in again. Oh why can't I wake up at 5.30am to join the class. :(

PETE K
02-06-2011, 11:36 PM
Hi Johannes, What size brushes did you use on the 12/16 you did today?
I lost a good part of the begening for a crash. did you use a Flat Bristle Brush first before the Flat Eclipse when finishing? Or did you use it right throw? thank you.

mtnrunner
02-07-2011, 05:10 AM
Loved the demo today! Sure made me want to run get my brushes and paints and get to work!
I was wondering if you ever invent light from a photo.. I mean, maybe the photo is a somewhat overcast day with no definite light direction.. or maybe it's noon with direct overhead light and no interesting shadow patterns. Do you ever
change that overcast day to bright sunlight, or change the time of day to create better shadow patterns? Any tips on doing that?

Johannes Instructor
02-07-2011, 06:44 AM
Loved the demo today! Sure made me want to run get my brushes and paints and get to work!
I was wondering if you ever invent light from a photo.. I mean, maybe the photo is a somewhat overcast day with no definite light direction.. or maybe it's noon with direct overhead light and no interesting shadow patterns. Do you ever
change that overcast day to bright sunlight, or change the time of day to create better shadow patterns? Any tips on doing that?
Yes, I take all the liberty to change anything. All those above I will change. Th point is to free yourself from photo dictatorship. When we learn our mass planning in future classes this will be the break through.

Johannes Instructor
02-07-2011, 06:45 AM
Hi Johannes, What size brushes did you use on the 12/16 you did today?
I lost a good part of the begening for a crash. did you use a Flat Bristle Brush first before the Flat Eclipse when finishing? Or did you use it right throw? thank you.

I like to use a brush about the width of a thumb. I prefer brights. I like sturdy brushes.

Nahant
02-07-2011, 12:42 PM
What was your gem on storing oils between painting sessions? The whole pallete in the freezer???

maxdawn
02-07-2011, 01:21 PM
Nahant:
That is what I read cover and store in freezer. Neat idea, save a lot of money from dried out oils.

Johannes Instructor
02-07-2011, 01:35 PM
What was your gem on storing oils between painting sessions? The whole pallete in the freezer???

ØI use an acrylic plastic container with a mid-value paper palette under a non reflective glass on top. All I do is scrape off unwanted paint. When I am done I put the lid on it and put it in the freezer. Oil paints do not dry in freezing temperatures. This saves a lot of money over time.

PETE K
02-07-2011, 02:32 PM
Hi Johannes, what is or is there a differance in the book's "Drawing with your artist brain" and "your artist brain"?

Johannes Instructor
02-07-2011, 08:03 PM
Hi Johannes, what is or is there a differance in the book's "Drawing with your artist brain" and "your artist brain"?

From what i know both books are compiled into one. If you have both books, drawing and painting with the artists brain you should be covered.

Barbara01
02-07-2011, 09:59 PM
Hi Johannes, I really enjoyed the oil painting demo on Sunday, it was great to see you the solve problems with the middle ground and the rocks so quickly and with such authority. I have difficulty doing the same thing with my work and find I'll hesitate over it.

In reference to the beginning of the demo when you were talking about skies needing to have slightly warmer tones; now I’m wondering about what the right colors for winter skies might be? Should they be a bit cooler such as cerulean blue, mixed with violets and cobalt blue; perhaps less ochre and red?

KarenB
02-08-2011, 12:40 AM
Thank you. I especially appreciated the part of Sunday's demo grouping evergreen trees and your treatment and the coloration of sage brush. I will continue to lurk, as you have plenty of images downloaded for critique, and my camera broke today.

Thanks, again. K :-)

hungry4art
02-08-2011, 04:36 AM
First of all, thank you, thank you Johannes for the wonderful web course! I am not a beginner, yet I have searched for the pesky answers to my questions for years, and you are helping me reach a higher level with my paintings!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Perhaps I missed a sentence somewhere, but how can I safely adhere linen canvas to a birch or masonite panel? Is there an archival glue, or will acrylic matte medium work well enough? Anita

Johannes Instructor
02-08-2011, 07:25 AM
Hi Johannes, I really enjoyed the oil painting demo on Sunday, it was great to see you the solve problems with the middle ground and the rocks so quickly and with such authority. I have difficulty doing the same thing with my work and find I'll hesitate over it.

In reference to the beginning of the demo when you were talking about skies needing to have slightly warmer tones; now I’m wondering about what the right colors for winter skies might be? Should they be a bit cooler such as cerulean blue, mixed with violets and cobalt blue; perhaps less ochre and red?

I apply the principles of skies in every season. 'Bluish" sky cooler & darker at zenith, warmer lighter as it approaches the horizon.

Barbara01
02-08-2011, 08:48 AM
Thanks for the info Johannes, I thought that might be the answer.

Actually I did ask about preparing linen panels but I sure can't find that post anywhere now. But he did say that using Liquitex Matt Gel Medium works fine, here's a link:

http://www.liquitex.com/Products/gelmedmattegel.cfm

So that reminds me, you mentioned some nice panels that Curry's sells and I found these basswood panels, would they be suitable?

https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A061B000807&NBReset=4

Thanks again Johannes!

jmcedeno
02-08-2011, 02:14 PM
Johannes, thank you for a wonderful weekend of learning, it was better than the SuperBall.

mtnrunner
02-09-2011, 12:31 AM
I was so inspired by the demo on Sunday that I have started a 16x20 landscape of a Rocky Mountain scene. I could approach this with more confidence (and hopefully fewer errors) having watched the video and seeing how you handled the various parts of your mountain landscape. I should have taken photos as I began, but was so eager to get started I did not!
I had to laugh though, once I got the canvas all covered in the block in stage, it
DID sort of get "the uglies" - but, since I was rather expecting that,it did not
discourage me!
thanks for the instruction and inspiration. Still waiting on the book I ordered!
deb

Cherrie
02-09-2011, 04:44 AM
Do all of the principles apply to watercolor as well? I am particularly referring to massing. The lower portion of the mountain, where you spoke of massing- how woud you have painted that in watercolor?
Thank you for all your hard work in presenting such wonderful lessons.

Cherrie

jmcedeno
02-09-2011, 06:15 PM
Johannes I ordered the book "Your Artist's Brain", it should be arriving soon, thank you for recommending it. I used the promo code WClive.

teigrelily16
02-09-2011, 08:31 PM
Hi Jo: I noticed that you said in passing that you toned your canvas before sketching in the masses, do you use acrylic or oil? and what color and value? Also, it looked like you used a conte crayon to sketch in the masses. What do you use?

Awesome demo!!!!!! :heart: I learn more, faster and quicker when I am able to watch an actual demo. Thank You very much.

Teigrelily

Baroque: when I have no Monet which is most of the time.

Johannes Instructor
02-09-2011, 08:52 PM
First of all, thank you, thank you Johannes for the wonderful web course! I am not a beginner, yet I have searched for the pesky answers to my questions for years, and you are helping me reach a higher level with my paintings!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Perhaps I missed a sentence somewhere, but how can I safely adhere linen canvas to a birch or masonite panel? Is there an archivales glue, or will acrylic matte medium work well enough? Anita

Yes, you use acrylic gel medium which we all know is very archival. That acts like glue when it dries. I prefer birch. Masonite warps too much.

Johannes Instructor
02-09-2011, 08:56 PM
Thanks for the info Johannes, I thought that might be the answer.

Actually I did ask about preparing linen panels but I sure can't find that post anywhere now. But he did say that using Liquitex Matt Gel Medium works fine, here's a link:

http://www.liquitex.com/Products/gelmedmattegel.cfm

So that reminds me, you mentioned some nice panels that Curry's sells and I found these basswood panels, would they be suitable?

https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A061B000807&NBReset=4


Thanks again Johannes!
Yes, those panels are just great.

Johannes Instructor
02-09-2011, 08:59 PM
Hi Jo: I noticed that you said in passing that you toned your canvas before sketching in the masses, do you use acrylic or oil? and what color and value? Also, it looked like you used a conte crayon to sketch in the masses. What do you use?

Awesome demo!!!!!! :heart: I learn more, faster and quicker when I am able to watch an actual demo. Thank You very much.

Teigrelily

Baroque: when I have no Monet which is most of the time.
I use acrylic and bring the value to about the same as the back of my hand. I use burnt sienna in most cases. I used a pastel pencil to do the drawing.

Johannes Instructor
02-09-2011, 09:06 PM
Do all of the principles apply to watercolor as well? I am particularly referring to massing. The lower portion of the mountain, where you spoke of massing- how woud you have painted that in watercolor?
Thank you for all your hard work in presenting such wonderful lessons.

Cherrie
Yes, principals of design to all mediums. For some reason watercolor allows for more play in the colors and effects and you can still get away with it. Look at paintings from:
Eugen Chisnicean
Trevor Chamberlain
David Curtis (from England)
Watercolorists tend to go a bit more wild with color and it works.
As long as the painting is well structured in its masses and values it will hold together. These principles are universal. Everything I am teaching such as knowing when to crop photos, create lead-ins, use melodic lines, etc should be applied to all mediums.

LynnM
02-09-2011, 09:48 PM
Thanks for those artists, Johannes, I especially like Trevor Chamberlain's work, has some of the same simplicity that I like in Wesson's paintings.

teigrelily16
02-11-2011, 09:07 AM
Thank you very much for the information. I absolutely love this class.

Teigrelily

MaryDeCleene
02-12-2011, 09:04 AM
Thank you for the free classes, and for posting all of these questions and answers for everyone to read!

B4painter
02-12-2011, 05:35 PM
You said search and destroy symmentriacal shapes. Watch for these 3 things, "soup bowls", "railway tracks" and what was the 3rd thing?

valspal
02-12-2011, 05:41 PM
my computer crashed how can i do the homework?

Silverlark
02-12-2011, 05:58 PM
Johannes I have noticed on here there are a lot of beginners like myself. Im wondering if you would ever think about doing some classes for us on the basics.

Hi Teresa,
Composition & seeing abstractly is the most important basic art skill. Please don't get discouraged if you don't understand it at first. Stick with it! You'll understand it over time.

It's like learning to walk. You know how many trials a baby has to go through to walk. But once you learn it, you can hop, skip, jump, dance, and even skate across a canvas.

Or you could say it's like arranging the furniture in a room. Even if the drapes match the couch, if the arrangement of the room isn't pleasing, the room doesn't feel comfortable to be in.

Like Johannes, I wish I'd come across this info years and years ago!:)
Theresa

wildlifelover
02-12-2011, 06:04 PM
I am a newbie so hope these questions are so dumb. 1. Can you use light are a lead-in? 2. In a picture that has only 2 planes (like the picture from today's lesson that contained large red, sandstone cliffs), can you use a dramatic cloud to give it a third plane/background or would it just be too much? Thanks so much for these lessons. Diana

Banner
02-12-2011, 06:18 PM
I did not have access to handout for todays lesson I tried to find it in wet canvas without success. Thank you for a most informative lesson you have opened my eyes Banner NZ

Banner
02-12-2011, 06:27 PM
:wave: I tried to access to the handout for todays lesson last week there was an attachment with my reminder for class. I tried to find it in wet canvas without success. Thank you for a most informative lesson you have opened my eyes and I am going to look at photos form now on using an Artist eyes. I look forward to tomorrows gems your session is the highlight of my weekend . Banner NZ

Valerieart
02-12-2011, 06:45 PM
I purchased an umbrella for plein air painting and it is all white. Should I spray paint (with fabric paint) the inside grey> If so, Light or dark grey?

Johannes Instructor
02-12-2011, 08:52 PM
You should be ok with the white one. As long as it does not have a color that can throw off the paint colors. The idea is to avoid direct sunlight. Is it the Guerrilla brand?

Johannes Instructor
02-12-2011, 08:54 PM
:wave:
You will find them in the posted handouts thread. Look for the posts that say "PDF" on them.

Johannes Instructor
02-12-2011, 09:03 PM
I am a newbie so hope these questions are so dumb. 1. Can you use light are a lead-in? 2. In a picture that has only 2 planes (like the picture from today's lesson that contained large red, sandstone cliffs), can you use a dramatic cloud to give it a third plane/background or would it just be too much? Thanks so much for these lessons. Diana

Lead-ins commonly originate from the bottom of the painting.These usually incude, rivers, streams, paths, bushes lined up, etc whatever it takes to create a subtle feeling of movement into the depth of the painting. These leads in mostly take one "S" directions that gracefully zig zag as the viewer visually walks into the painting. Also you can use clouds, mountains etc that originate from the left top corner and slowly work a line towards the focal area. This line mostly compensates the lead from the bottom.

Johannes Instructor
02-12-2011, 09:08 PM
You said search and destroy symmentriacal shapes. Watch for these 3 things, "soup bowls", "railway tracks" and what was the 3rd thing?

Equal concave indentations and convex protrusions was the other and obviously things that end up looking like triangles, squares, rectangles, etc

gerimia
02-12-2011, 09:53 PM
Gerimia
Thanks Johannes for great classes!! Have been painting for a long time, but have learned so much in just a couple of weeks. Have been going back over some of my stuff that didn't quite work and now see why. Have ordered "the book" --eager for it to arrive. Looking forwrad to tomorrows class.

carol_lee
02-13-2011, 12:59 AM
Thanks for the wonderful lesson last night... During the session you mention various artists .. Would you please list their names so we can further investigate their work....

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 10:27 AM
Thanks for the wonderful lesson last night... During the session you mention various artists .. Would you please list their names so we can further investigate their work....

Sure here they are:
Clyde Aspevig
Jim Wilcox
Scott Christensen
Matt Smith
David Curtis (from England)
Jean LeGassick
John Hughes
Skip Whitcomb
Steve Atkinson
Frank Serrano
John Budicin

I recommend you study their abstract pictorial language. They create poetic symbols that represent real obejcts that are less tedious than trying to depict realism. Don't be fooled into thinking they are realists. Your mind gets tricked thinking they are. Pay attention to individual shapes. My favorite artist and the one I understand the best is Clyde Aspevig. I know his techniques very well.

pjreads
02-13-2011, 10:46 AM
Would you explain further the distinction between the small shapes in slide 16 (waterfall) versus the small shapes in slide 18 (bluff).

You identified small shapes in slide 16 as puzzle pieces but said to ignore the small color/value shapes in the trees in slide 18.

Were you discussing different stages in the process of planning the painting or are there cases where small color/value shapes are not puzzle pieces?

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 11:31 AM
Would you explain further the distinction between the small shapes in slide 16 (waterfall) versus the small shapes in slide 18 (bluff).

You identified small shapes in slide 16 as puzzle pieces but said to ignore the small color/value shapes in the trees in slide 18.

Were you discussing different stages in the process of planning the painting or are there cases where small color/value shapes are not puzzle pieces?
Will do so in class today. It is easier to outline all this.

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 11:37 AM
Gerimia
Thanks Johannes for great classes!! Have been painting for a long time, but have learned so much in just a couple of weeks. Have been going back over some of my stuff that didn't quite work and now see why. Have ordered "the book" --eager for it to arrive. Looking forwrad to tomorrows class.

I recommend that you don't go back in time and work on them though because our old paintings tend to drag us back into the previous habits. Look forward to upcoming paintings to implement these new concepts.

Missy Friedl Shipley
02-13-2011, 01:20 PM
Could you please expand on your method of preparing painting panels? How many coats of gesso, sanding & so on.

Dougwas
02-13-2011, 01:50 PM
Hi Johannes

I just thought I would mention another artist you told us about last year. John Poon paints landscapes with abstract shapes and keeps things fairly simple. I have learned a lot studying his paintings. Even though I have never seen the area he paints, I am sure he simplifies his paintings by not painting everything he sees. I thought the newer students might like to look at his paintings. Here is a link. http://www.johnpoon.com/

Doug

Amandine
02-13-2011, 01:57 PM
Talented or not
I heard you saying and repeating you have no talent, Johannes. In his book "Mastering Composition", Ian Roberts quotes James Whistler :
Talent is the ability to do hard work in a consistently constructive direction over a long period of time.
Well, after seeing your paintings and what you can do with an ordinary photo, I strongly believe you have a really great talent Johannes but, good for us that you think you don't, because it made you such a good teacher.
I had 3 teachers over the past 10 years and no one ever talked to me about avoiding triangles, pizzas, straight lines, railways, etc. or what is a melodic line and other so important things you're teaching us. For that, I'm so gratefull. Many many thanks to you.
Amandine

pjreads
02-13-2011, 02:04 PM
Johannes mentioned Robert Genn yesterday -- fantastic paintings!
http://www.robertgenn.com/

DeboraM
02-13-2011, 03:01 PM
Johannes - You said you scanned paintings to avoid the extreme dark and light values, but I am concerned about scanning paintings, pictures, etc. after hearing an art and photograph preservation expert who said that the light of the scanner/photo copier will destroy the pigments. It will not be apparent right away, but over time they just fade out. What are your thoughts on this?

Valerieart
02-13-2011, 05:39 PM
Thank you Johannes.

No, it is a Soeil Travers. with a clamp and bendible piece.
I was told by a plein air instructor to wear dark clothing or color would be reflected incorrectly. So, I thought it would be the same for an umbrella.
PS I am learning so much from the webinar!

Regards, Valerie

DeniseWeston
02-13-2011, 05:49 PM
Thank you so much, Johannes for these wonderful classes! I am learning a great deal. Thanks also to Robert for the fantastic notes.

Sienna black
02-13-2011, 06:18 PM
Thank you Johannes. I watched your class for the first time today, and I am very impressed on your teaching skills. I have been taking drawing and painting for 4 years now and have seen some of the concepts you taked about today, but it has never been made clearer to me. I realy loved todays class and am so sorry I missed the other ones. I will study Robert's notes, but is there a way I can view the past classes?

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 08:41 PM
Thank you Johannes. I watched your class for the first time today, and I am very impressed on your teaching skills. I have been taking drawing and painting for 4 years now and have seen some of the concepts you taked about today, but it has never been made clearer to me. I realy loved todays class and am so sorry I missed the other ones. I will study Robert's notes, but is there a way I can view the past classes?

Your comment seems to be a common denominator. I just don't know why they can't make it clear. The previous classes will be available for download any day now for $9.99 that covers the entire weekend.

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 08:45 PM
Would you explain further the distinction between the small shapes in slide 16 (waterfall) versus the small shapes in slide 18 (bluff).

You identified small shapes in slide 16 as puzzle pieces but said to ignore the small color/value shapes in the trees in slide 18.

Were you discussing different stages in the process of planning the painting or are there cases where small color/value shapes are not puzzle pieces?

Once we get into the mass planning lesson it will all make sense.

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 08:47 PM
Thank you Johannes.

No, it is a Soeil Travers. with a clamp and bendible piece.
I was told by a plein air instructor to wear dark clothing or color would be reflected incorrectly. So, I thought it would be the same for an umbrella.
PS I am learning so much from the webinar!

Regards, Valerie

Dark clothes on a hot summer day?? Not me. LOL! As long as you dont wear clothes that reflect colors such as oranges or yellows or blues. Gray clothes is fine too.

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 08:54 PM
Could you please expand on your method of preparing painting panels? How many coats of gesso, sanding & so on.

This is what I do. I buy a full wooden panel of birch wood 1/4 " at Home Depot and ask them to cut it up to the sizes I want.

I dont sand it but I have read they recommend you should.
First coat is acrylic modelling paste spread on with large paint brush making small criss-cross brush movements in a X
Let dry
Next coat gesso. Make sure it is a good brand. I tried to cut corners and end up with a diluted home store version. Venetian seems to be well priced. Same criss cross movements.
Let dry
One more coat of gesso same application process.

pjreads
02-13-2011, 09:18 PM
Handout 6 page 1 What constitutes an abstract shape?
-- box at 10:00 says:
"When a shape is a clone of another even if the original one is abstract"

That's not right, is it?

(tried to load picture of page)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2011/190233-handout6abstract.JPG

sherrysherman
02-13-2011, 09:28 PM
Handout 6 page 1 What constitutes an abstract shape?
-- box at 10:00 says:
"When a shape is a clone of another even if the original one is abstract"

That's not right, is it?

(tried to load picture of page)

I agree with you; I think this is a misstatement.

I think he meant watch out for clones, even when the original was nice and abstract. One unique and abstract shape is good. A duplicate of it right next to it renders both of them non-unique and therefore not desirable.

maxdawn
02-13-2011, 09:29 PM
Ok I have tried search homework posting and can not find where we are to post are image with neg. pointed out...I finally found a photo that should work, but where to post it??

sherrysherman
02-13-2011, 09:38 PM
Ok I have tried search homework posting and can not find where we are to post are image with neg. pointed out...I finally found a photo that should work, but where to post it??

Not sure what you refer to ... "post are image with neg. pointed out..."

Our homework is to find photos of trees, rocks, waterfalls, etc. that fit Johannes' criteria for "abstract shapes." Then we are to either draw an arrow pointing to the abstract shape or (better) outline the abstract shape, improving it if we desire.

That homework is to be posted on the thread called, "Upload here abstract shapes from photos thread."

winecountry
02-13-2011, 10:55 PM
Handout 6 page 1 What constitutes an abstract shape?
-- box at 10:00 says:
"When a shape is a clone of another even if the original one is abstract"

That's not right, is it?

(tried to load picture of page)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2011/190233-handout6abstract.JPG
means what it says, if you make an abstract shape and make another pretty much like it, you "cloned" think of the sky gaps in a tree this is a place that could happen pretty easily

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 11:51 PM
Handout 6 page 1 What constitutes an abstract shape?
-- box at 10:00 says:
"When a shape is a clone of another even if the original one is abstract"

That's not right, is it?

(tried to load picture of page)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2011/190233-handout6abstract.JPG

What I intend to say is once an abstract shape gets cloned it is no longer abstract becuase it has been repeated. I put that there to emphasize not to repeat a shape.

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 11:52 PM
means what it says, if you make an abstract shape and make another pretty much like it, you "cloned" think of the sky gaps in a tree this is a place that could happen pretty easily

Thats right Colleen

Johannes Instructor
02-13-2011, 11:53 PM
Not sure what you refer to ... "post are image with neg. pointed out..."

Our homework is to find photos of trees, rocks, waterfalls, etc. that fit Johannes' criteria for "abstract shapes." Then we are to either draw an arrow pointing to the abstract shape or (better) outline the abstract shape, improving it if we desire.

That homework is to be posted on the thread called, "Upload here abstract shapes from photos thread."
Well quoted Sherry

Johannes Instructor
02-14-2011, 12:21 AM
Here is another book I strongly recommend that deals with general composition.
Mastering Composition by Ian Roberts

http://www.northlightshop.com/produc...on/?r=WCLIVEJV (http://www.northlightshop.com/produc...on/?r=WCLIVEJV)

Remember to type in WCLIVE in the promo code to get 10% off. (The enter code slot appears below) Also that code gets tracked so F&W Media knows the recommendation originated from these web classes. These sales will allow us to continue with the online classes in the future. I only recommend books that I feel will contribute to your artistic growth. It even comes with a 40 min DVD.You may want to bundle this one together with "Your Artist's Brain" http://www.northlightshop.com/product/your-artists-brain/?r=WCLIVEJV (http://www.northlightshop.com/product/your-artists-brain/?r=WCLIVEJV) to get free shipping.

Colorix
02-14-2011, 05:37 AM
Our homework is to find photos of trees, rocks, waterfalls, etc. that fit Johannes' criteria for "abstract shapes." Then we are to either draw an arrow pointing to the abstract shape or (better) outline the abstract shape, improving it if we desire.


Should the whole photo be an example of a good reference, too? Not just cropped out examples of abstract shapes?

Johannes Instructor
02-14-2011, 07:40 AM
Should the whole photo be an example of a good reference, too? Not just cropped out examples of abstract shapes?
You can show the whole photo but indicate the abstract tree, bush, rock, etc in the photo.

pjreads
02-14-2011, 10:11 AM
What I intend to say is once an abstract shape gets cloned it is no longer abstract becuase it has been repeated. I put that there to emphasize not to repeat a shape.

I understand what you mean, but the way it's said doesn't fit in the context of the heading of the page (What constitutes an abstract shape?) and the points in the other boxes.

brushandknife
02-14-2011, 07:32 PM
You mentioned recommending other books. Could you add what you're going to recommend so that we can send for them all at once to save on shipping? Thanks.

I also want to say thank you for a very clear way of stating these things. I am understanding things that I've heard many times (or never heard as well) but never understood. You make it very clear. I can't thank you enough for this help.

Johannes Instructor
02-14-2011, 07:42 PM
I understand what you mean, but the way it's said doesn't fit in the context of the heading of the page (What constitutes an abstract shape?) and the points in the other boxes.
I gave a list if you go back some posts.

M.M.
02-15-2011, 10:12 AM
Thanks Johannes for your great classes. I have learned more about design and composition in your classes than in all the ones I took before. Your teaching has radically changed the way I look at photos and paintings. Plus, I can see problems with some of my previous work that I had not noticed before. I look forward to more golden nuggets.

nana b
02-15-2011, 02:24 PM
Johannes, I think you're great for sharing the valuable information you are giving us with these lessons.
I have studied hard for the last five years and have accumulated a lot of knowledge. But the real "Golden Nuggets" you are sharing, I didn't know. Or didn't know for sure.. I knew the questions I needed answers for but either couldn't articulate them to my teachers or they just didn't know or if they did, were keeping them as "trade secrets". I suspect that most of them didn't know. I have studied under a few artists and have a ton of books that I have acquired through the years. Sure they share some good things but I needed more. Walla! Your "golden nuggets"! When I learn everything you know then I have no excuse....except maybe time. It seems to be speeding by.
You are sharing the things that have been kept close to the Master's Chest for a long time. Thank you for opening that chest and letting the secrets out!

A question...the melodic lines you are teaching are "right on" in my opinion. But......I have this idea that keeps nagging at me, that the eye also needs a little rest somewhere in the painting. If everything is melodic, isn't that in it's self "repetitive"? This is really bugging me.

Nora
02-15-2011, 04:17 PM
Would turning a photo or a painting upside down make it easier for an artist to pick out the symmetrical shapes as we would not see the normal forms we are used to; trees, mountains, etc.?

Johannes Instructor
02-15-2011, 04:56 PM
Many of you are asking me for a book that I would recommend for general oil paint application and brushwork.The one I feel covers it is this one,

Brushwork Essentials by Weber

Don't forget to type promo code "WCLIVE" to get 10% off and that the recommendation was generated by this course so we can continue in the future.
Here is the link to this book,
http://www.northlightshop.com/produc...ls/?r=WCLIVEJV

robertsloan2
02-15-2011, 05:06 PM
I asked Johannes to recommend an oil painting book for me and he asked me to repost my question and his answer in this thread:

Hi Johannes,

You're recommending "Your Artist's Brain" on North Light bookstore is great, though I've already got it. I was wondering if you could recommend a good oil painting book for beginners - techniques in handling oils directly, something to supplement the course for those of us who are beginners in oils or just not good at oils yet.

I'd really appreciate it if you could recommend one and get North Light to do the WCLIVE discount on it. That'd probably sell quite a few to students since your demos are in oils so often.

Thank you again for providing this great free instruction! I haven't done my second round of homework yet but will post it soon.

I also had a chance to sketch outdoors today and found myself applying your principles to every tree, bush, rock or anything I saw. I sketched because I saw this zigzag path into the scene under an arbor with planking and stepping stones on a path, with some interesting trees and bushes.

Do photos count as mine if I told someone to take them, where to stand and aim, because I didn't have my phone with me and my daughter did? I might have several good abstract objects in those photos.

Robert

I am not a copyright lawyer but I bet that the law will say whoever owns the camera owns the rights to the photo. However this I do know. No one own the copyrights to an actual scene no matter how many times he shoots a photo. Copyrights only apply to produced images of a scene. There is a book called,"Brushwork Essentials" that has oil paint application knowledge. I recommend that.

http://www.northlightshop.com/product/brushwork-essentials
Don't forget to use promo code WCLIVE to get 10% off. Robert do me a favor can you post this dialog with my answer in the Johannes - Student Question Answer forum.

I just placed my order for it and got free shipping along with Pastel Pointers by Richard McKinley (another Johannes recommendation) and preordered the new Maggie Price pastel book.

Thank you so much for recommending a good oils book. I have several books with sections on oil painting in them but know there's so much I don't know - oils are foreign territory to me compared to pastels, watercolor or even acrylics.

Johannes Instructor
02-15-2011, 05:10 PM
Should the whole photo be an example of a good reference, too? Not just cropped out examples of abstract shapes?

I am solely concerned with you pointing out beautiful isolated abstract shapes. Later down the road we will dig out the entire photo fo a painting.

LynnM
02-16-2011, 12:39 PM
nana b said:

A question...the melodic lines you are teaching are "right on" in my opinion. But......I have this idea that keeps nagging at me, that the eye also needs a little rest somewhere in the painting. If everything is melodic, isn't that in it's self "repetitive"? This is really bugging me.[/quote]

I am also interested in your answer to this, Johannes.

Nora
02-16-2011, 04:02 PM
Yes, how do you keep melodic lines from being too repetitive and busy?

Davkin
02-16-2011, 04:34 PM
Seems to me that only the primary masses should have melodic lines. With everything else you're more concered with creating abstract shapes within the primary masses. Just my guess.

David

Johannes Instructor
02-16-2011, 05:44 PM
Johannes, I think you're great for sharing the valuable information you are giving us with these lessons.
I have studied hard for the last five years and have accumulated a lot of knowledge. But the real "Golden Nuggets" you are sharing, I didn't know. Or didn't know for sure.. I knew the questions I needed answers for but either couldn't articulate them to my teachers or they just didn't know or if they did, were keeping them as "trade secrets". I suspect that most of them didn't know. I have studied under a few artists and have a ton of books that I have acquired through the years. Sure they share some good things but I needed more. Walla! Your "golden nuggets"! When I learn everything you know then I have no excuse....except maybe time. It seems to be speeding by.
You are sharing the things that have been kept close to the Master's Chest for a long time. Thank you for opening that chest and letting the secrets out!

A question...the melodic lines you are teaching are "right on" in my opinion. But......I have this idea that keeps nagging at me, that the eye also needs a little rest somewhere in the painting. If everything is melodic, isn't that in it's self "repetitive"? This is really bugging me.
yes, that is correct that's why we need to create rest areas. But you are on the right track and I am totally aware of this. When you create these lines your sense of esthetics will lead you to indicate the right lines. This is why I also recommend a short horizontal straight line somewhere to give stability to the painting. Here is an example: Imagine you have a grouping of rocks at a shore line of a seascape that you place in a melodic way. Then these rocks stop about 2/3 the way. After that you create a straight line for relief which would be the horizonatal line where the sea meets the sky. That line is your relief. Think of it as music. Many times the singer will sing the lyrics and then somewhere in the song only the instruments play. That beings relief to hearing the voice all the time.

jmcedeno
02-16-2011, 09:06 PM
Johannes, I have Photoshop Elements 4 but I really don't know how to use it, except downloading photos, cropping, resizing and so forth; I'd like to learn how to manipulate the photo to add, substract, move image, paint, etc. I have a lot of books on the subject but taking an online class would be a lot better. Do you have any suggestion?

teigrelily16
02-16-2011, 10:50 PM
Hi Jo: you talked about vertical rhythms such as trees, fences, etc. Is it possible to have horizontal rhythms in a painting such as short lines that the eye can follow lazily? Did I just answer my own question? Trying to soak up all the information like a sponge. I plan on getting the DVD's of the classes. Also, I received the Artist's Brain today! It's awesome! And so is this class.

Teigrelily

Baroque: when I have no Monet!

Johannes Instructor
02-17-2011, 12:03 AM
Johannes, I have Photoshop Elements 4 but I really don't know how to use it, except downloading photos, cropping, resizing and so forth; I'd like to learn how to manipulate the photo to add, substract, move image, paint, etc. I have a lot of books on the subject but taking an online class would be a lot better. Do you have any suggestion?

Maybe seeing me use it will be enough for you to learn? I only use a few tools.

Johannes Instructor
02-17-2011, 12:04 AM
Hi Jo: you talked about vertical rhythms such as trees, fences, etc. Is it possible to have horizontal rhythms in a painting such as short lines that the eye can follow lazily? Did I just answer my own question? Trying to soak up all the information like a sponge. I plan on getting the DVD's of the classes. Also, I received the Artist's Brain today! It's awesome! And so is this class.

Teigrelily

Baroque: when I have no Monet!

Yes, rhythm is established with any repitition with slight variations. A seascape is an excellent example when we create several layeras of waves.

winecountry
02-17-2011, 02:08 AM
A study of a wave, for a planned seascape, my first, and strange for me it's a clear day....here it is so far....still have more to go on the foam and rocks....this is not the format the full scale painting will be, it's just a way to practice the wave.
Questions
that righthand rock edge is very weak at the moment...
how do I do an edge of rock against the water when the water is farther behind, like on the lower righthand side...I get the softer edges ok but those hard ones are still a mystery to me to fit the puzzle piece of the water next to the rock

9x12 oil on linen
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2011/103030-Duncans_Landing_study_wip_14126_copy.jpg

Johannes Instructor
02-17-2011, 08:24 AM
A study of a wave, for a planned seascape, my first, and strange for me it's a clear day....here it is so far....still have more to go on the foam and rocks....this is not the format the full scale painting will be, it's just a way to practice the wave.
Questions
that righthand rock edge is very weak at the moment...
how do I do an edge of rock against the water when the water is farther behind, like on the lower righthand side...I get the softer edges ok but those hard ones are still a mystery to me to fit the puzzle piece of the water next to the rock

9x12 oil on linen
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Feb-2011/103030-Duncans_Landing_study_wip_14126_copy.jpg

Colleen look at the negative space of your rock at the top right. You have repetitions of line. I would also reduce the size of the rock shape on the right. It is too close in size to the one on the left. I know if we weigh them they are not but the weight is implied visually. The foam and water look convinicing.

Srishti
02-17-2011, 12:29 PM
This is what I do. I buy a full wooden panel of birch wood 1/4 " at Home Depot and ask them to cut it up to the sizes I want.

I dont sand it but I have read they recommend you should.
First coat is acrylic modelling paste spread on with large paint brush making small criss-cross brush movements in a X
Let dry
Next coat gesso. Make sure it is a good brand. I tried to cut corners and end up with a diluted home store version. Venetian seems to be well priced. Same criss cross movements.
Let dry
One more coat of gesso same application process.

Hello Johannes,
Loving your class. I have been a watercolorist so far but received my purchase of water mixable oils yesterday and I am excited to give it a go!
Have been pondering on various surfaces and panels seems very inviting...
With your above explanation of preparing the panel, how would you display it? Do you prepare a cradle for it. or do you somehow frame it? What is a good method of dealing with this?

Thanks a bunch:wave:

PS: Do you use the Light Molding paste or the modelling paste?

Srishti
02-17-2011, 12:53 PM
Oh one more question for Johannes:

I remember that in one of your classes (it could have been the oil landscape class video that you did before this F&W class) you mentioned regarding solvents that citrus oil is not necessarily an environment friendly/safe liquid. You mentioned another one to use instead of it that is safe and non-hazardous.
I know I wrote it down somewhere but I can't find it anymore... :(

Can you please tell us again what it was?
Thanks a lot!
Srishti

winecountry
02-17-2011, 01:22 PM
thanks Johannes, I spotted that too when I posted...going to put in PS now to refine the shapes as that post is the block in...that right rock is not very graceful, and the line tho somewhat abstract is too "fast", it sure is all about shapes, and if the big ones aren't right, then what I do with the little ones hardly matters.

Johannes Instructor
02-17-2011, 02:58 PM
Hello Johannes,
Loving your class. I have been a watercolorist so far but received my purchase of water mixable oils yesterday and I am excited to give it a go!
Have been pondering on various surfaces and panels seems very inviting...
With your above explanation of preparing the panel, how would you display it? Do you prepare a cradle for it. or do you somehow frame it? What is a good method of dealing with this?

Thanks a bunch:wave:

PS: Do you use the Light Molding paste or the modelling paste?
You can frame a birch panel. It seems like the gallery boxes work well too to avoid a frame which is becoming old fashion but it takes more work to make the gallery boxes.
Here is an example of what I mean.
https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=A061B000809&Source=Search

I would present the panel as is though. Many people want to buy their own frames.

Johannes Instructor
02-17-2011, 03:01 PM
Oh one more question for Johannes:

I remember that in one of your classes (it could have been the oil landscape class video that you did before this F&W class) you mentioned regarding solvents that citrus oil is not necessarily an environment friendly/safe liquid. You mentioned another one to use instead of it that is safe and non-hazardous.
I know I wrote it down somewhere but I can't find it anymore... :(

Can you please tell us again what it was?
Thanks a lot!
Srishti
Well my local store told me citrus thinner is no different than others. Yet eco house claims it is healthier. So I don't know where we stand but the other product is Gamsol oderless mineral spirits
http://www.gamblincolors.com/solvents/index.html

Johannes Instructor
02-17-2011, 03:01 PM
Hello Johannes,
Loving your class. I have been a watercolorist so far but received my purchase of water mixable oils yesterday and I am excited to give it a go!
Have been pondering on various surfaces and panels seems very inviting...
With your above explanation of preparing the panel, how would you display it? Do you prepare a cradle for it. or do you somehow frame it? What is a good method of dealing with this?

Thanks a bunch:wave:

PS: Do you use the Light Molding paste or the modelling paste?

Just normal modelling paste.

tedzart
02-19-2011, 09:49 PM
Johannes:
I just wanted to thank you again for the wonderful job you are doing with these classes. You make it seem so simple. I have picked up a few things about Elements, which has been an unexpected benefit for me.
I plan to painting along tomorrow. Really looking forward to it.
Thank you,
Teddy

Banner
02-20-2011, 04:14 AM
[QUOTE=Banner]::) :)
I have managed to get all handouts now thank you again I am starting to see the light due to your teaching methods I am smiling

Pinklady219
02-20-2011, 09:30 AM
:music: Hi Johannes. The homework with the skyline has really helped me with the "abstract oil slick." This exercise has made a big impression on the mechanics of the whole abstract thingy:D . I will remember the skyline when planning a painting. Also, thank you for this once-in-a-lifetime opportunityl! To me, this is priceless. :heart:

Johannes Instructor
02-20-2011, 12:59 PM
Please recommend these classes to your art friends. Let's bring more people into this and also we raise awareness for traditional art.

robertsloan2
02-20-2011, 01:25 PM
Johannes, have you ever tried Winsor & Newton Oil Bars or any other oil sticks like Sennelier Oil Sticks, Shiva Paintstiks or R & F Pigment Sticks?

I recently bought a starter set of R & F Pigment Sticks and tried them on a canvas board. They handle a lot like oil paint but I seemed to handle them better using the stick itself to get in the first layers and then detailing with a rubber colour shaper equivalent.

Once they're on the canvas or the palette they seem to handle like tube oil paint - thick, mix easily and move around a lot wet in wet. They also dry at the same rate that oils do, my mixing chart is still wet from last week.

gwatford
02-20-2011, 06:09 PM
I am involved in a weekly art challenge I am sending you the original emailed photo I was sent and my attempt in paintshop to do a thumb nail sketch. I haven't used my photo program to adjust shapes and rearrange before so please overlook my crude attempt to work in the computer program. Hopefully I have a better composition than the original photo. I thought this would be a good exercise to practice what you have been teaching before I start the painting. I would value your input and opinions. Thank you in advance!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2011/223570-lone_cypress.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2011/223570-lone_cypress__thumb_nail_sketch.jpg

DeboraM
02-20-2011, 06:20 PM
Great demo today Johannes - a question was raised about why wet rocks or rocks under water are darker and I went looking for the answer. Hope it helps.
Debora

Clothing... hair... paper... wood...rocks...
Lots of things seem to be darker when they're wet. What's happening?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2011/198326-Wet.jpg

The way we see an object's 'colour' is by the light which hits the object. For example, when white light (containing all colours) hits the pink shirt at the right, all the colours in the light are absorbed by the shirt ... except pink, which gets emitted. This pink light emitted by the shirt is why the shirt looks pink to our eye.

Now suppose the pink shirt becomes wet. Water is now embedded in the fabric, including the outer layer of the material. Several things happen when light hits this water-fabric mixture.

The simplest description would be to say that the fabric-water mixture will emit a different colour that the fabric would all by itself. Generally speaking, that is what happens. However, this is not strictly true, since the water and fabric don't form a new material, but remain as separate substances within the shirt. Light interacts with them separately. A better explanation of what actually happens is as follows:
When white light from the room hits the surface of the material where it is wet, some of the light will scatter (reflect) from the water. This light doesn't make it back to our eye. Less light coming from the wet region means it will look darker.

Some of the light that hits the water will pass through. When it does, it will be refracted (bent), so that its path changes. When pink light from the fabric is emitted, some of it will again be refracted as it passes through the water again.
Not all of the light that is emitted by the pink fabric that would have reached our eye now does so, because some of it has changed direction.
In other words, because there is less light coming from the wet area (some was refracted in a different direction), that area will look darker than the material around it.

jmcedeno
02-20-2011, 06:45 PM
Johannes, great watercolor demo. learned a lot today, thanks a million for being so kind. I did not receive the e-mail showing the reference for the demo, only the reminder from webinar. If it is not a problem, would you please send it again or perhaps in private message, would love to paint that scene with the waterfall.

little miss sunshine
02-20-2011, 06:47 PM
I am amazed and grateful that you have made this course available to us all. I have learned to look at landscapes (painting, photos and real life) in a totally different way. Thank you so much!

jmcedeno
02-20-2011, 06:48 PM
Great demo today Johannes - a question was raised about why wet rocks or rocks under water are darker and I went looking for the answer. Hope it helps.
Debora

Clothing... hair... paper... wood...rocks...
Lots of things seem to be darker when they're wet. What's happening?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2011/198326-Wet.jpg

The way we see an object's 'colour' is by the light which hits the object. For example, when white light (containing all colours) hits the pink shirt at the right, all the colours in the light are absorbed by the shirt ... except pink, which gets emitted. This pink light emitted by the shirt is why the shirt looks pink to our eye.

Now suppose the pink shirt becomes wet. Water is now embedded in the fabric, including the outer layer of the material. Several things happen when light hits this water-fabric mixture.

The simplest description would be to say that the fabric-water mixture will emit a different colour that the fabric would all by itself. Generally speaking, that is what happens. However, this is not strictly true, since the water and fabric don't form a new material, but remain as separate substances within the shirt. Light interacts with them separately. A better explanation of what actually happens is as follows:
When white light from the room hits the surface of the material where it is wet, some of the light will scatter (reflect) from the water. This light doesn't make it back to our eye. Less light coming from the wet region means it will look darker.

Some of the light that hits the water will pass through. When it does, it will be refracted (bent), so that its path changes. When pink light from the fabric is emitted, some of it will again be refracted as it passes through the water again.
Not all of the light that is emitted by the pink fabric that would have reached our eye now does so, because some of it has changed direction.
In other words, because there is less light coming from the wet area (some was refracted in a different direction), that area will look darker than the material around it.
Debora, that is a very interesting explanation, thanks for sharing it, I printed it out for future reference.

Johannes Instructor
02-20-2011, 06:53 PM
Johannes, have you ever tried Winsor & Newton Oil Bars or any other oil sticks like Sennelier Oil Sticks, Shiva Paintstiks or R & F Pigment Sticks?

I recently bought a starter set of R & F Pigment Sticks and tried them on a canvas board. They handle a lot like oil paint but I seemed to handle them better using the stick itself to get in the first layers and then detailing with a rubber colour shaper equivalent.

Once they're on the canvas or the palette they seem to handle like tube oil paint - thick, mix easily and move around a lot wet in wet. They also dry at the same rate that oils do, my mixing chart is still wet from last week.
I once tried oil pastels. Did not like them. Never touched them again. That and egg tempura I have no experience in.

Johannes Instructor
02-20-2011, 06:55 PM
Johannes, great watercolor demo. learned a lot today, thanks a million for being so kind. I did not receive the e-mail showing the reference for the demo, only the reminder from webinar. If it is not a problem, would you please send it again or perhaps in private message, would love to paint that scene with the waterfall.
Check your Spam folder please. I need to know why you did not get an email. I copied every name that was registered in the webinars.

Johannes Instructor
02-20-2011, 06:56 PM
I am involved in a weekly art challenge I am sending you the original emailed photo I was sent and my attempt in paintshop to do a thumb nail sketch. I haven't used my photo program to adjust shapes and rearrange before so please overlook my crude attempt to work in the computer program. Hopefully I have a better composition than the original photo. I thought this would be a good exercise to practice what you have been teaching before I start the painting. I would value your input and opinions. Thank you in advance!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2011/223570-lone_cypress.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Feb-2011/223570-lone_cypress__thumb_nail_sketch.jpg
Seems a little suffocated but you are on the right track. Because the tree is the focal point I would give it more breatng space. Zoom out a bit more and you will be happier with it.

winecountry
02-20-2011, 08:08 PM
I did not get the photo either, it was not in my junk folder, I am registered fro the webinars..

Johannes Instructor
02-20-2011, 08:28 PM
I did not get the photo either, it was not in my junk folder, I am registered fro the webinars..
Did you at all get today's email?

Dougwas
02-20-2011, 08:28 PM
The photo attachment was way down at the bottom of the e mail sent to me. It was way down past the links for the books and easy to miss.

Doug

Johannes Instructor
02-20-2011, 08:29 PM
The question was not why rocks are darker when wet but why do they turn yellow ochre colored

Johannes Instructor
02-20-2011, 08:30 PM
The photo attachment was way down at the bottom of the e mail sent to me. It was way down past the links for the books and easy to miss.

Doug
I sent it as an attachment

Dougwas
02-20-2011, 08:48 PM
There is a thumbnail of the photo to click on way down at the bottom of the email. You have to scroll down to the very end of the e mail to see it.

Doug

Sienna black
02-20-2011, 08:48 PM
Johannes, I hope I am posting this properly. I am not sure how this site works yet. I would like to know if you will be selling DVD on the online class you have been giving. I missed quite a few of them and would love to catch up.
http://www.artabus.com/soniapalik/

Johannes Instructor
02-21-2011, 12:13 AM
Johannes, I hope I am posting this properly. I am not sure how this site works yet. I would like to know if you will be selling DVD on the online class you have been giving. I missed quite a few of them and would love to catch up.
http://www.artabus.com/soniapalik/

The first 4 classes have been submitted to the publishers. The other classes are ready to (with exception) of today. We just have to wait until they put them up for sale. I will do whatever I can on my part to make these available as soon as possible.

Rosemarie
02-21-2011, 12:26 AM
Johannes , I found out that I got the photo but wasn't aware it was there. One has to scrol throuhg some large text before one sees the photo. I had deleted the mail. Luckily I can start an older computer and get the mail once more.

mcbru
02-21-2011, 07:51 AM
Johannes, I have a thought rather than a question and was hoping you could comment on whether or not I'm on the right track. So here goes.

When correctly painting from negative to positive, back and forth, not only can you form the abstract shape, but the shapes (positive/negative) seem to take on almost a shimmering quality. Some play with the edges, soft, hard, broken; varigate colors internally on shapes, away you go. This is a snapshot of my thought process so far. Comments?
Thank You.

hewill4giveu
02-21-2011, 07:54 AM
Okay at first i didnt think i got it either but the picture was with the email titled TO ALL REGISTRANTS OF LIVE WEB CLASS maybe this will help people to know what there looking for. It this was already posted im sorry just ignore this then.

Johannes Instructor
02-21-2011, 09:19 AM
Johannes, I have a thought rather than a question and was hoping you could comment on whether or not I'm on the right track. So here goes.

When correctly painting from negative to positive, back and forth, not only can you form the abstract shape, but the shapes (positive/negative) seem to take on almost a shimmering quality. Some play with the edges, soft, hard, broken; varigate colors internally on shapes, away you go. This is a snapshot of my thought process so far. Comments?
Thank You.

You ar right on track. Mature artists resort to backward painting or negative painting, play with edges and do what you are indicating.

Rosemarie
02-21-2011, 11:50 AM
Johannes, thanks for the WC demo.
Quite a few people are asking about the "no fly zone" in another thread. You di give a good explanation on Saturday. Could you explain it again?

winecountry
02-21-2011, 12:41 PM
Did you at all get today's email?

I got a notice from Justin that you were on camera live...I opened from cyberlearning, but I get emails from you just fine....perhaps I did not go far enough down as some mention.

Laura2011
02-21-2011, 04:51 PM
The first 4 classes have been submitted to the publishers. The other classes are ready to (with exception) of today. We just have to wait until they put them up for sale. I will do whatever I can on my part to make these available as soon as possible.



Johannes, thank you for the demo yesterday. I am new to painting and I use WS colour for health reasons so I know very little about watercolour however the demo was very illustrative of the things learnt in the classes.

I would like to know if you intend to repeat the classes about painting landscapes (I found the thread yesterday and read all Robert´s notes). I thought the classes were wonderful and would like to know whether those classes are up for sale and if you intend to repeat them.

Thank you again for all your help.

Johannes Instructor
02-21-2011, 05:31 PM
Johannes, thank you for the demo yesterday. I am new to painting and I use WS colour for health reasons so I know very little about watercolour however the demo was very illustrative of the things learnt in the classes.

I would like to know if you intend to repeat the classes about painting landscapes (I found the thread yesterday and read all Robert´s notes). I thought the classes were wonderful and would like to know whether those classes are up for sale and if you intend to repeat them.

Thank you again for all your help.
Laura, the classes are scheduled to run all the way to April 17 and if all works out well we go on after that.

claydesigner2156
02-21-2011, 07:38 PM
Johannes,

i was enjoying watching you paint and was starting to paint along with you...when I had unexpected company!!! Had to stop. Will you post..or have you posted the finished painting? If you are posting, please tell me the link to see it. I teach art in a continuing education program for seniors. I have been telling them to watch the webinars. I really enjoyed you painting more than the pictures...sorry...you win!
Thanks,
Yvonne

Johannes Instructor
02-21-2011, 07:44 PM
I uploaded the final painting in this web page:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=895212&page=10
Thanks for spreading the word.

Laura2011
02-22-2011, 09:10 AM
Laura, the classes are scheduled to run all the way to April 17 and if all works out well we go on after that.


Sorry Johannes I know the present webinar finishes in April, the webinar I meant was this one "Johannes Art Instruction For Landscape" which you taught in December 2010.

Robert´s notes of classes on how to paint trees, rocks, waterfalls etc. were very useful to me, so I would like to know if you intend to repeat it or if not, were can I buy the classes.

Thank you again to you and also to Robert for his notes.

Johannes Instructor
02-22-2011, 01:54 PM
Sorry Johannes I know the present webinar finishes in April, the webinar I meant was this one "Johannes Art Instruction For Landscape" which you taught in December 2010.

Robert´s notes of classes on how to paint trees, rocks, waterfalls etc. were very useful to me, so I would like to know if you intend to repeat it or if not, were can I buy the classes.

Thank you again to you and also to Robert for his notes.

At the end of this course F&W media and I will assess if this continues. I would certainly like this to continue. The series that I did last year which is how to do evergreens, waterfalls etc would be given down the road. The next series of classes which would be only a month would be, "All you need to know about man made structures". Let's see if that draws interest.

Davkin
02-22-2011, 04:47 PM
I'd certainly be interested in a continuation, however the time would have to change for me to attend live. When the weather is good I'm usually outside in the afternoon on weekend days, (the classes are 1:00-3:00 for me.) and the weather will mostly be good after April.

David

Analia
02-23-2011, 09:03 AM
Hello Johannes! This last sunday Ken wrote in the chat that he was taking note of the questions to post a "Question/Answer", I guess same as you did after the first classes. Am I right? I find them a useful tool in order to put some clarity in the chatting we students make during the class...

Muchas gracias! ;)

Johannes Instructor
02-23-2011, 10:17 AM
Johannes, I hope I am posting this properly. I am not sure how this site works yet. I would like to know if you will be selling DVD on the online class you have been giving. I missed quite a few of them and would love to catch up.
http://www.artabus.com/soniapalik/
yes any day now the recorded classes will be available

maxdawn
02-24-2011, 12:38 PM
I found this site where you up load your photo and it gives you a color palette for it.

http://bighugelabs.com/colors.php

Srishti
02-24-2011, 02:21 PM
Maxdawn, this is a great link! Thanks!

pat-trew
02-24-2011, 05:58 PM
THE SUNSET I MENTIONED THAT LOOKED LIKE THE DEVIL SET THE SKY ON FIRE, HOW CAN IT BE USED? AND FIXING THE DARK CORNER AREAS.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Feb-2011/105243-sunset.JPG

Johannes Instructor
02-24-2011, 11:13 PM
THE SUNSET I MENTIONED THAT LOOKED LIKE THE DEVIL SET THE SKY ON FIRE, HOW CAN IT BE USED? AND FIXING THE DARK CORNER AREAS.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-Feb-2011/105243-sunset.JPG
This is another example of how copying a photo will make us fall into all of its traps. The problem is the camera cannot pick up the low key darks like the human eye canthe camera converts it to black so . In real life our eye pupils would dilate to allow more light in so the bottom area would not look black. Even in a low light situation as suggested in the photo. While it would be low key yet not black. I suggest to raise the overall value of the painting and show the trees at a value 8 not 10 and use 8 and 10 values for accents to bring out the 3D look. In this case because it is an almost night scene I would rely on the last three darks. Also as I mentioned in my course if we dont include a foreground, middle ground and background the painting will feel incomplete so I would add a horizontal foreground even if we don't see it in the photo.

Johannes Instructor
02-24-2011, 11:19 PM
I found this site where you up load your photo and it gives you a color palette for it.

http://bighugelabs.com/colors.php
Thinking in 12 hues is much easier and benefitial than thinking in hundreds of color combination. The more we think in pigments and what colors make what subject the more confusing it gets. There are many pigments that will get us to the same hue. Pros know this. That's why some only use 3 pigments plus white.

horsthh
02-25-2011, 12:14 AM
Thank you Johannes for your class and all the help. I am having a heck of a time with this reference photo to make into a painting, what's my problem.

Johannes Instructor
02-25-2011, 08:40 AM
Thank you Johannes for your class and all the help. I am having a heck of a time with this reference photo to make into a painting, what's my problem.

I know exactly what the problem is. The logs because they have an implied straight line are leading the eye to the edge of the painting instead of leading the eye toward the back of the painting.

Johannes Instructor
02-25-2011, 09:37 AM
Questions and answers that resulted during the web class February 12.Q: Can you help explain the difference between contour, shape and mass?
A: One way to do this is to think of Canada and USA as being masses, their border is their contour; the contour has a variety of angles and ridges, even where these masses meet the ocean. Canada and USA are therefore different shapes, and the ocean another.

Q: Can you discuss the idea of shapes in relationship to nature and man-made structures?A: Nature will give often give us “implied” symmetrical shapes. These shapes in paintings look too humanly produced and as such, look fake, even if they appear in nature. Nature gets away with it. We cannot. In paintings we want to eliminate these shapes or redesign them in a more pleasing way, commonly referred to as abstract shapes. We have to modify the symmetrical or seemingly symmetrical so that these shapes are not identifiable as man-made symbols. Shapes that look “triangularish”,” squareish” visually are boring shapes and as such should be re-designed into more abstract representations.
In buildings we do have things that are closer to geometric symbols, in fact, identical. We see octagonal stop signs, squared buildings etc., that could be identified as such even with a ruler. But painting them the way they would commit the artist to painting so much detail, and more straight lines in order have the viewer not pay too much attention to a particular object. So, in alla prima cases, artists tend to imply the idea of straightness, symmetry, or geometry of the buildings and man-made structures by playing with the edges, and distorting the shapes a bit, so that the IDEA of ‘building’ is IMPLIED, but not visually spelled out like its seen. At an abstract level, up close, a distorted red blob of paint, in the right surrounding context from afar, will give the idea or imply the idea of a stop sign. The identification of an object also depends a lot on the context it is in. All this, an artist uses in order to preserve the abstraction of the shapes as much as possible, for even in nature, shapes that may be too close in idea to resembling geometric shapes, have to be modified. We have weird, ugly, and odd shapes happening in nature, so for the sake of the eye, the artist employs abstract shapes. It is an artistic issue not a scientific issue.



Q: What can you say regarding the rule of thirds, the Golden Mean etc.?
A: Mathematical ways to solve composition problems are tools that can work for solving problems in paintings such as the rule of thirds and the golden mean. But these are tools, and cannot be dependent upon, for we may fall into formulaic ways of thinking, or worst, trying to make a composition fit a mathematical blue print, instead using every tool at one’s disposal to make the composition work. The composition or idea comes first, the tools or means are secondary. The 1/3 or 2/3 ratio is good to keep in mind so we stay away from middle points. An example of this would be placing a horizontal shore line against the vertical line of a fishing hut at 1/3 or 2/3 height.


Q: To what degree do we follow the photograph?A: Photos give you ideas, even the subject itself in plein air, is not to be followed verbatim, they are means for an artist to convey their message, tools, not end in themselves; the real subject is in the artist's mind, and uses the subject or photos as inspiration, and for reference of certain things. Your painting must be a good idea that the photo whispered in your ear and you verbalized it.

Q: Richard Schmid says paint exactly what you see. He say to, put the right color in the right place of what you see if front of you. Is this a contrast to what you are saying?A: ‘Paint what you see’ is a common sayings for professional art instructors, but can be misleading in its literal content in what the professional intended to say in the way of proceeding or what he really meant. To express the activity of following purely what the eye is telling you and nothing else, the motto should be:
PAINT HOW THE EYE SEES.

For instance, if you “Paint what you see,” as a general artistic approach, you will copy everything that is presented to the eye verbatim” and all the reverse is true.
The idea is to create the artwork to agree with the way the eye sees in the macro world. Johannes will elaborate on this in a future lesson.
“Paint what you see” is a useful motto if you want to match a certain color, shape, or value, as it appears scientifically, you paint it exactly as it appears to the eye (and not even then, because they recommend squinting!). This way we get away from painting what we falsely understand regarding our visual universe when it comes to accuracy, not art. In this case it is pertinent to say ‘Paint how the eye sees, not what you assume,- think you know.’ But this is to match certain color or value relationships, not as a general approach to creating a fine piece of art; otherwise there would be no need for compositions if all we needed to do is to paint what is seen.
But some artists interpret this or encourage to ‘paint what you see,’ psychologically, where the word ‘see’ implies not just what is visual, but what is emotional i.e., your way of seeing the world, what you feel, how you ‘see’ things subjectively,- in which case we are encouraged to put ourselves in the painting, and no longer pretending to do science on our canvas by replicating real life. It is painting the way the artist would like his world to look not like it does look with all of its flaws. This is better, in so far as it is backed up by scholarship and not just whimsical impulses.
However, artists spend most of their career understanding light, form, and other aspects of nature to an almost scientific rigidity, because the way things appear to the eye most of the time simply do not work in art, so we are encouraged to paint what we see even if it does not work? No, so this cannot be verbatim, but it is a tool for understanding and for rendering precise things,- not to be used as a general artistic approach, for Richard himself has said ‘I use my subject, I am not a slave to it’. One example, the light in one’s house can never compete with direct sunlight in nature, neither can a small painting compete with the macro world. Artists do not even have the exact value and color range in nature, and even then, it all has to be reduced into a limited or defined space (canvas). The moment we compose, or that a scene is limited by the edges of a frame, art becomes artificial, and hence a totally different language.
So, artists, in fact paint what they know (the word know meaning not assumption, but scholarship), what they understand, and what simply works i.e., what is not there, but should be there. This is done through the appropriate study of the constants and rules of nature, so that we can improvise successfully when needed. So, at their level of expertise when it comes to creating a work of art and not just getting a color right, the motto is ‘paint what know (what you know will look good), not what you see, unless it works!
An example of this is the blue shadows over snow. In nature these shadows are a stark primary color blue which is very cool and will not work in a painting. So the artist will add red and/or greens to warm it up so it is more acceptable to the viewer. But this again for the sake of art, not scientific accuracy.
And finally this saying can mean to paint the way the eye sees, as it interacts with a visual plane. As it moves from one part to the other, focusing on some areas, it has to defocus in other areas. So in painting, we paint things so that this mechanical process of the eye is replicated on the canvass, like it is done when we see Nature. But this is just a tool, for the eye is just a tool of reference not the dictator, since most of the things that make paintings work, are not found in nature, they are abstractions brought from the platonic universe of beauty that we do not see, but seek to express. Hence the term ’art.’

Q: Why do we always hear that painting is simple shapes like circles, cylinders, saucers yet Jo says don't use those shapes, why do we hear that he says don't use that?A: This is another concept. The mind can only understand every object in the visual universe as being a modification or either a sphere, cube, cylinder and others alike. This comes in handy in understanding how light hits objects, and how no matter how complex we want to paint our objects, the mind has to be able understand things as modifications of the three dimensional shapes mentioned above. The references to these geometrical shapes you mention is to get the proportions of a drawing right until you erase these figures once the drawing is complete.
An example of this is to draw a rectangle at the proportions of a tea pot in a still life. Later you erase these rectangles once they have served their purpose.



Q: We are told to paint simple shapes and Joe says make sure not to make identifiable shapes? This is confusing.A: By ‘identifiable’ he meant ‘shapes that either bear a literal resemblance to geometric shapes (like man-made structures), or that imply it too well (sometimes in the case of nature). Do not paint shapes that the mind can perceive too easily to being too similar or approximated to ideal geometric symbols. Think of creating pleasing shapes. See shapes as visual music.

Q: Joe says we should fit our objects like trees in an “ovalish” contour, does this not contradict?A: Note the term, “ovalish” which means if you were to ship that tree it would fit inside an oval shape, but it would have lots of concave entrances so it would not be a literal oval. He uses this term so you don’t paint your trees “roundish” in a circle.


Q: What is meant by ‘organic shapes.'?A-Shapes that appear natural, that are found in nature, versus synthetic shapes which are man-made, geometric. Unfortunately, even organic shapes are not always aesthetically pleasing as we see in many photos, for we see oddities and ugly shapes even nature. The shapes we want to paint are abstract shapes,
for the sake of art, and are given priority regardless of the scientific appearance of things, as long as the impression of things is maintained to the mind. If we change the appearance of things to please the eye, but make them unrecognizable to the mind, our art would become Abstract, not Representational, which deals with the very minimum of information that the mind needs to believe that it is in front of familiar things.
Meatballs, soup bowls etc., are examples of synthetic shapes. The contours of trees and rocks are organic shapes. Abstract shapes can represent man-made and natural structures without compromising being their recognition. It is the safe way to avoid the odd, ugly and too geometric shapes which are boring.

Q:Can you state more problems regarding organic shapes in nature”A: Pines are a good example, many pine trees have a very saw like zigsaw contour, that has variety and abstraction up close, but for some reason does not work for a painting, because the idea of “saw” or “zigzagging” (man-made geometric shapes) is implied too strongly, and the viewer’s eye as it rolls along a jagged contour will feel disturbed. This is why trees are so stylized, and why many artists have their own version of trees. Again they do not paint what they see, they paint what they want you to see. Also take into account that the complicated contour of a pine tree reduced to a photograph or painting does not show up natural, so this is why artists can get away with rendering the archetype of a tree, without stating their exact rather bothersome contours.


Q: Learning art can be such a complicated thing; I thought it was more about pouring your soul into your art.A:It is at the deepest level, but artists learn the academics because if one wants to ‘pour one’s soul’ into painting a portrait or complicated subject, ignoring artistic tools like the drawing and other nuts and bolts hinders with the expression of what the artist wants to say. The point is to learn these mechanics in order to free the mind from the nuances that get in the way from its creative ambitions.


Q: Why do artists use mirrors when painting?A: For the same reason that artists turn their paintings upside down and view it in black in white. Since a good image is fundamentally an abstract flat image, seeing it upside down and hence making the subject unrecognizable, can tell you if the image has a powerful abstract quality. Seeing it in reverse will, by the same token, reveal odd shapes or lines that are there, but that the artist cannot easily see by virtue of being either too intoxicated by his own painting, or by the subject disguising it. By seeing in a mirror the artist gets a fresh view as if it were the first time he sees the painting. This way he can readily spot a problem area.

Q: Why does a photo with non abstract shapes, straight lines & etc., look pleasing, whereas it looks bad in a painting?A: It does not look good in a photo at a visual level, but on an emotional level, because a certain scene can have personal meaning to the viewer, and so any picture of that will feel like it could work. We have to make this distinction between visual artistic beauty, and emotional personal beauty. Not every beautiful thing is meant to be painted, and some not so beautiful things can very well be painted.


Q: If I had a painting that is predominantly sky, would it be more interesting with if I added clouds?A: What is a cloudless sky by definition, it’s a flat blue greenish with little gradation, with a bit of earth at the bottom. An image could hardly be more static and boring than that. We avoid this by breaking up this ‘sky’ mass by adding varieties of lighter value and color which happen to be clouds. Putting in ‘clouds’ is only an excuse to put in varieties so that the viewer can identify it as a landscape, while the artist solved it as a purely abstract problem. Good paintings are nothing but abstract solutions which in the end look representational.


Q: What is a negative shape?A: The term is used to refer to the meaningless space around the object, or object that has been tagged with a name. There is an ‘apple,’ and the shape around the apple that has no practical usage like the apple but nonetheless is crucial for the viewer to see the apple in the first place. To the eye, the retina, its all the same, the positive and the negative are the same, for it sees shape next to shape, next shape, while the mind makes this distinction since the apple has been known to be of use, to have meaning; hence to be ‘positive.’



Q: You know when learning to draw you are often encouraged to break down things into symmetrical shapes - is that the wrong way to approach drawing?A:This means to picture the contours of things as a sum of angles and lines. In a profile for instance, to free hand the silhouette is much more difficult and less accurate than to picture the main angular transitions and changes, and start with that. This way you avoid a roundish, formless look, and instead preserve the underlying angular look, turning the profile itself into an abstract shape


Q: Can it be said that all straight lines in a picture should be changed to be melodic? Is there a limit?A: A line a shape, or a contour, has to have variety in its silhouette, if it is a straight line, vary the edges a bit, and if you stubbornly want to keep it perfectly straight stepping out of the realm of impressions and representations, then make sure you paint it the way the eye sees i.e. where you look in one place in the line, the eye should be blurring the remaining parts of the line. In real life, when we look at a line, it is not focus altogether at the same time, only the part we focus on at a given time. Hence in painting, we need to paint things so that the eye can behave the same way it does in nature, which is to see hard edges where it looks, and for things to appear softened where it chooses not to look.

Questions were answered by Kenneth Vloothuis. The answers were proof read by Johannes

Johannes Instructor
02-25-2011, 09:41 AM
Questions and Answers that resulted during web class February 13Q: Can you explain the difference between a dead spot and a resting area?A: In music we have part of a song that is very dynamic and full of intrigue, followed by a slowing down or fading before once again picking up into the melody. These altercations are what make a piece of aesthetics so great. This is analogous to a resting area in a painting, where followed by very dynamic and exciting areas, we then need the contrast of more subtle quietness so that through this contrast both things can exist! Still, though, in the resting part of the song or painting, there is still a tempo, a rhythm and harmony, But in ‘dead areas’ there is none, there is the feeling of blankness, as opposed to contributing to the piece. A dead spot in a song is like the song being mute for half a minute; like in painting we would have a part that is too flat and boring with no color variations. If you notice, in seemingly flat or uninformative parts in paintings, like large sections of bare sky, artists find ways to incorporate interest through sparks of color and dynamic brushwork or ‘vibratos’ in order to maintain the underlying rhythm and harmony of the piece, just like in a song, there is a slowing down, or a reduced concentration of notes, but that overall follow the same tempo or harmony.
Q: I have mostly done portraits so landscapes are new to me. I am in love with art and it is part of my soul now. It is cheaper than therapy and got me through the death of my daughter. A: True, there is scientific evidence to support the idea that doing art, along other activities that soothe the mind, can cure things like depression. Many therapists recommend doing art when people are depressed. I’m glad you convert grief into an activity that is positive and productive and we are honored that you trust us for part of your artistic growth.
Q: Could you add rocks to the bottom left or right effectively in a painting?
A: Any question regarding what to put in a painting or what to leave out is tricky, because it commits the artist to answer the question in terms of real things, when an artist can only deal with things like value, color, shape, etc., not ‘things.’ ‘Things’ are left brain, shapes, value and edges are right brain. So, the question depends on what the word ‘rocks’ means, and hence it becomes very open. In general, it is about how things are introduced and harmonized in a painting, in order to make the whole work, and so that things do not become the whole. If one puts in a painting that is not primarily about rocks, everything one knows about rocks, then this given area can become too dominant and therefore contradict the central message in a painting. If these rocks are placed in such a way that the value does not stand out and their lines are used as lead-ins, then it would be a good idea.
Q: I have the greatest difficulties in seeing abstract shapes. Is it a question of practice?A: Johannes has used the term “abstract shape” because it is a universal term used by many art instructors but this term needs to be clarified because abstract immediately projects us to modern art such as Picasso’s work. To clarify the term “abstract” used in this context refers to non-symmetrical with non-repetitive areas, handsomely designed, interesting to look at. The ability to perceive all of the components of our visual universe such as value, edges, contour etc., is something that the eye itself sees, for it is information passed through the retina. However, to acknowledge and recognize these things for what they are, is to turn on a dormant part of the brain, which task is to perceive units of value, edges, shapes, contours etc., instead of ‘things.’ To awaken the art brain takes a lot of practice, and this is why so many artists get so frustrated because a lot their problems are not only artistic but perceptual; if we were born with these faculties, art would hardly be interesting since art is so highly regarded also because of the severe mental task associated with mastering it. However, what was just described is just to perceive what is actually there, but in terms of art, we are encouraging people to bring in a whole new factor, which is not just the shapes that are there which can either be organic or synthetic, but to also break things down and represent things into ‘abstract shapes,’ which are not always there, but are necessary for the sake of aesthetics, and for the mind to feel that there is more information than presented. This has been the sole object of the past lectures. Johannes will be providing many examples of this and will make constant references to abstract shapes. Thru the intellectual understanding you will learn to produce and recognize these shapes as well.
Q: What is the limit of value masses though which we can present our painting?A: A good painting has three visual levels, the thumbnail level which is when you see it from across the room from afar, then there is the regular viewing distance, and finally there is the zoomed in or up-close view of it where you can see things like the signature, the surface of the painting, the texture, the bits of colors that make up the image from afar along with the rest of the nuances. From afar or at a thumbnail level, a good image has to have no more than 5, preferably just 3 value masses of all different sizes in balance. This is a principle of aesthetics, where the viewer has to understand the image through a coherent form. It is important to avoid pairs like 2 or 4, just to play it safe. An example of a painting with one value mass only, could be one of many of Monet’s foggy scenes which can be all the same value mass by falling into a predominate mid value. It would be an art in itself to be able to do a pencil thumbnail sketch of these works, because a lot of the information is rendered in color, not so much through value, from afar. Of course when the viewer gets closer (and this applies to any painting), we can notice more value contrast, color contrast and all sorts of fun things that overall blend, at a thumbnail level while being an arrangement of such a few simples masses. This is why artists can render detail, because from afar, they form a coherent and simple whole, while many mistakenly convey detail through overwhelming value contrast that at a thumbnail level, make the painting too overwhelming.
Q: Can you explain the difference between cloning and repeating?A: Cloning is where you repeat elements or shapes within the same painting, creating competition. It feels as though the artist copied and pasted one element into another part of the painting due to it being too identical to the first one. Repetition is harmonious, for there is variety, not monotony, like in the case of cloning. In a skyscape we can have an arrangement of light value masses with a variety of edges normally referred to as ‘clouds,’ but in a good painting all of these will appear to be of different sizes, shape (both negative and positive), with some altercations in color etc. Cloning would be having the same cloud repeated over and over again, and if not the same cloud, one that looks to close or that implies monotony. Rhythm is established by repeating similar directions. For example if we have a scene with birch trees that are vertical, the rhythm is achieved by the tendency of vertical lines but as soon as we repeat the same angle and the same tree diameter, that would be considered a cloning. If we can vary the gaps in between these trees, their vertical directions and the tree widths then we have repetition of movement which results into rhythm.
Q: Should the viewer be able to tell how the artist solved problems or the ‘secrets’ underlying the painting? Should the artist make these noticeable?A: Any artist or trained eye should be able to identify the mechanics of shape, color harmony, value, movement, even technique, that were implemented in a painting. Some artists even want to show the viewer how they developed layers of texture within the painting. But no matter how good the artist can be at showing how certain problem were solved, it will always take an educated eye to these abstract things notice things, and if it is too obvious, this means that the artist has made a painting that lacks any sort of profoundness. To the untrained eye these things will be unnoticed. Many artists want to hide their means, so that the viewer feels a deeper sense of profoundness and mystery, and also to keep the viewer from getting too distracted by the means and technique. Richard Schmid, on discussing design and composition, said, that he wanted the viewer to see the painting first, not the design, implying that the design is not to be obvious and that the viewer should be overtaken solely by the content. Curiously, some artists would think that the design itself is the content or end result. Art is like Philosophy, there will always be disagreements.
Q: Would you recommend techniques or methods of approach such as grisaille?A: Fortunately, these days there is little need for such methods since paints were tubed up and intensified in color. The grisaille method which is based on several layers of transparent color and waiting for each layer to dry takes a long time even weeks. We want the artists to go with the flow of that energy and express himself immediately, for waiting so long loses that initial thrust. Also the grisaille method is applying thin layers showing no brushwork. For oils this downgrades the medium. We encourage students to depend more on alla prima techniques so that this will push the student to exploit the movement of brush strokes, and not hide behind a method that is time dependent. John Singer Sargent and John Howard Sanden advocate this approach for portraits! An economy of means is always central. The result will always be fresh, powerful and infinitely intriguing, telling the viewer ‘look at my dazzling straight forward brushstrokes, how masterfully and assertively I was executed.’ Such methods encourage the viewer that the artist is absolutely confident to the point that the application of paint or method was an art in itself. While it is true that the grisaille method does result into transparent paint but at the expense of expressive brush strokes for many artists is not worth the tradeoff.
In grisaille, we do not have this, since it is a technique used to disguise the elements mentioned above. And psychologically, in the hands of a student, it becomes a refuge for artistic insecurities and troubles, twinkling and dabbing with layers of paint, getting an approximation little by little through large gaps of time. Furthermore, since glazing darkens values from the mid-tone down, an artist has to intentionally paint everything a bit lighter so that that accurate tone is given through glazing. This is a method, but students should be encouraged to learn to say things assertively, because a method such as premier coup or alla prima, will force an artist to get to the crux of the painting and deal with all the problems straight on, encouraging the student to overcome any sort of fear or timidity towards the subject.


Q: What about trees running out of the painting, is that ok?A: Students tend to shove things into paintings like a drawer, regardless about how it is affecting the reaming silhouettes or shapes. Trees kissing edges are also a problem, mostly when trees are segregated instead of merged together. Indicating things that exit the painting is a positive approach for it sends a message, “You imagine the rest”. Try to fit everything into a limited spatial area will limit this imaginary process of the viewer. We can even say the viewer will finish the painting.
Q: Regarding the elements of a landscape that you have discussed (i.e. color, shape, texture), could you expound upon textures and how to represent those textures with paint? A: Impasto texture is a tool that acrylic and oil painters have in their favor over other mediums such as watercolor. Placing heavier paint on a landscape object will result into making that object appear closer. On the contrary painting with thin paint conveys the idea that the objects are further back. This is really handy when you have a tree in the foreground overlap another tree in the middle or background. If you make that first tree appear with more body it will send a message to the viewer that it is closer.
Dry brushing is another way to create texture also used in watercolor. By breaking up paint we can create a broken paint effect that has a random result. This is very good for example to indicate clusters of leaves. Barn wood will look weathered. Tree bark will look rugged. This is suitable for painting grasses. These are just some examples.


Questions were answered by Kenneth Vloothuis. The answers were proof read by Johannes

ddel
02-25-2011, 10:43 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Feb-2011/118398-Castle_mountain__Ws.jpg

I have wanted to do a painting of Castle Mountain. Your course has shown me why I cannot get a scene that is pleasing to the eye (straight lines, no entry point, no middle ground) to name a few. My brother lives in Calgary and I would love to figure out how to make a pleasing picture for him. Any suggestions? Many thanks Doug

domeland
02-25-2011, 11:05 AM
Thank you posting the questions and answers. It is very informative. :)

Johannes Instructor
02-25-2011, 04:04 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Feb-2011/118398-Castle_mountain__Ws.jpg

I have wanted to do a painting of Castle Mountain. Your course has shown me why I cannot get a scene that is pleasing to the eye (straight lines, no entry point, no middle ground) to name a few. My brother lives in Calgary and I would love to figure out how to make a pleasing picture for him. Any suggestions? Many thanks Doug
Yes, that's why I avoided painting castle mountain and the three sisters. This is the way the cookie crumbles. Some scenes make great photos but lousy paintings. The one you are submitting is not that good. I have painted quite a lotf of scenes in Banff and given workshops there. You want a great scene with great lines and a great lead in? My baby is "Crowfoot Glacier" Also get photos from Mt Rundle from the Vermillion lakes area. There are some good photos of Mt Edith Cavell as well. If you are willing to paint "Crowfoot Glacier" let me know to post the photo. I am glad you turned that photo down. You are showing discernment!

gwatford
02-25-2011, 07:34 PM
Hi Johannes,
I'm submitting the pastel painting for my original post 145 page 10 of this thread and would appreciate your C & C on my attempt to follow the principals you have been teaching. I did not like the original tree from the photo and switched to one that was more like trees where we visit. Also I tried to simply shapes and have a lead in with he rocks and darker grass, though I didn't seem to have much of a soft S line leading into the painting.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Feb-2011/223570-jackson_lake_point_4.jpg

Johannes Instructor
02-25-2011, 08:55 PM
Hi Johannes,
I'm submitting the pastel painting for my original post 145 page 10 of this thread and would appreciate your C & C on my attempt to follow the principals you have been teaching. I did not like the original tree from the photo and switched to one that was more like trees where we visit. Also I tried to simply shapes and have a lead in with he rocks and darker grass, though I didn't seem to have much of a soft S line leading into the painting.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Feb-2011/223570-jackson_lake_point_4.jpg
Trees ok but visually you have a triangle. Turn your painting upside down.

brookstream
02-25-2011, 10:00 PM
Yes, that's why I avoided painting castle mountain and the three sisters. This is the way the cookie crumbles. Some scenes make great photos but lousy paintings. The one you are submitting is not that good. I have painted quite a lotf of scenes in Banff and given workshops there. You want a great scene with great lines and a great lead in? My baby is "Crowfoot Glacier" Also get photos from Mt Rundle from the Vermillion lakes area. There are some good photos of Mt Edith Cavell as well. If you are willing to paint "Crowfoot Glacier" let me know to post the photo. I am glad you turned that photo down. You are showing discernment!

What if he just painted the mountain from the foot of it up and left off the trees and the water...you know got a close in shot of it?

Johannes Instructor
02-26-2011, 12:31 PM
What if he just painted the mountain from the foot of it up and left off the trees and the water...you know got a close in shot of it?
Yes that works too. You can paint a binocular zoom in where the snow becomes the focal point. The snow then would take abstract shapes.

gwatford
02-26-2011, 03:02 PM
I'm hoping I got rid of the the triangle you spoted for me. While painting, I reworked to hopefully allow the eye to more slowly move toward the tree. Also added more colors. I appreciate you C & C on improving this painting. Your lessons, pointers and help is invaluable!!!!!! Thank you

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Feb-2011/223570-jackson_revised.jpg

WYguy
02-26-2011, 06:00 PM
Johannes, thank you so much for these webinars; my wife and I are enjoying them a lot (and learning a lot).

To help with perspective in highlights between the foreground and the middle distance where the same "color" is used, I sometimes add a tiny bit of the compliment to the color as it recedes in the distance. Is this in effect reducing it's chroma?

Thanks,
Jim

CherieRN
02-26-2011, 06:33 PM
Immensely valuable information!! Thanks so much!

Johannes Instructor
02-26-2011, 07:09 PM
Johannes, thank you so much for these webinars; my wife and I are enjoying them a lot (and learning a lot).

To help with perspective in highlights between the foreground and the middle distance where the same "color" is used, I sometimes add a tiny bit of the compliment to the color as it recedes in the distance. Is this in effect reducing it's chroma?

Thanks,
Jim
The best soultion is to add purple. Purple will gray down and cool any hue without changing its mother hue. In other words purple is the universal complement for indicating distance for all colors without making mud.

onlinewoman
02-26-2011, 07:25 PM
Johannes I have gotten so much out of these classes, so I first wanted to say thanks!

Second after today's class I decided to take a run at improving a photo that I've wanted to do as a painting. Based on your tips and ideas I made some dramatic improvements but then realized that you hadn't really addressed how best to do a sky like this one. I feel this sky is still not quite right but I can't quite but a finger on why. Maybe the area is just too big, but cropping more ruins the whole idea. I had thought perhaps this would be a good "minimalist" type painting. I did blur the sky some and lightened it, but it still seems awkward but hopefully not beyond correction.

I should also mention that I realize there are a lot of symmetrical shapes and fairly "straight" lines here, but I've found it difficult to avoid this with shots of the Midwest plains where adding trees or additional vegetation would just make it "not" the plains. Are there any other ways of preserving a shot like this without taking it out of context or making it not quite what it is?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Feb-2011/192942--sd-landscape-improvements-smaller.jpg

gwatford
02-26-2011, 07:41 PM
Hi Johannes,
I am so thrilled with your classes after every class I feel so energized with new ideas. Today was especially great. I love the way you explain concepts and... to copy from what you have been saying about shapes...watching your webinars are like putting all the pieces of the puzzle together Wow! Things I have been thinking and wondering about is now making perfect sense! Thank you so much for all your help, I truly appreciate all your time and efforts you are putting into these classes and answering our questions in the forum. I was totally surprised and appreciated your critique of my painting on the webinar today. It's crazy thinking about it now but I totally missed that triangle!!! My brain kept saying don't paint like the photo but there glaring at me was that huge triangle where I totally was following the photo. Thanks again!!!!!

Johannes Instructor
02-26-2011, 08:25 PM
Johannes I have gotten so much out of these classes, so I first wanted to say thanks!

Second after today's class I decided to take a run at improving a photo that I've wanted to do as a painting. Based on your tips and ideas I made some dramatic improvements but then realized that you hadn't really addressed how best to do a sky like this one. I feel this sky is still not quite right but I can't quite but a finger on why. Maybe the area is just too big, but cropping more ruins the whole idea. I had thought perhaps this would be a good "minimalist" type painting. I did blur the sky some and lightened it, but it still seems awkward but hopefully not beyond correction.

I should also mention that I realize there are a lot of symmetrical shapes and fairly "straight" lines here, but I've found it difficult to avoid this with shots of the Midwest plains where adding trees or additional vegetation would just make it "not" the plains. Are there any other ways of preserving a shot like this without taking it out of context or making it not quite what it is?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Feb-2011/192942--sd-landscape-improvements-smaller.jpg
Hold your horses! This is exactly what this course is about. We are not to be faithful to a photo. Why do we have to respect the anatomy of those background mountains. Why can we not alter things even if they are there? We are not supposed to copy a nature scene. We are supposed to create our own world based on inspiration and ideas that come from photos. Why can we not out some tree behind that cabin? Now if you are talking about putting a palm tree in a rocky mountain scene I would see your point because that kind flora does grow there. But that is far as I would go. You do whatever you can to make your story be well told. Who's to say the owner of the cabin did not plant some tree a long time ago?It is your script. Mother nature already told her story now she wants to hear our version of it. Don't repeat mother nature's story again. But we are not to prove we get close to a photo. I would alter the line of those mountains. About the sky? Well you need to make a decision as you have now the ground and the sky are competing for attention. Either make it a skyscape which would require good actors in the sky or make it a terrain painting in which case reduce the size of the sky. I would also zoom in more to the cabin. Please email me the original photo and I will crop it for you.
Now I feel just the solitary shack in the field with no adjacent structure makes a poor movie script. Adding a water well, maybe a silo, an abandoned rusted cart, something to make us image what went on there. Surely if you go to flick.com you can find something with the same idea but more elements to merit the topic. You can be a great artist but without real good subject material it will next to impossible to make this work. One thing I have learned over my teaching years is that many artists settle for very limited photo reference. When it comes to buildings if we don't have a powerful surrounding which would be the supporting actors it is very hard to end up with a winner. I suggest you find some structures with more angles and roof positions. Here let me help you. Check out these structures
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2276419657/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikewoodfin/4768594331/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tommysimms/54736871/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lad78518/5392731745/
Check out the story telling in this next photo. This would make a good script
http://www.flickr.com/photos/electric_crayon/4542056647/
The idea is to hold the viewer's attention for a long period of time. One solo shack in the field will not achieve that. He needs more entertaining subjects. You can borrow some things from here.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rrusty/2759781130/
Wow look at this photo. You can sure walk around visually in here huh? Again in a building scenario if you don't have enough subject material such as a great background mountain etc the main actor doesn't have enough support. If you have enough structure material such as the wooden shack with an abandoned car or tractor and we zoom in and we won't need beautiful mountain or lakes or whatever would surround the structures.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tvpweb/4235713749/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timberwolf1212/2729896056/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beegardener/5477702583/

toco
02-26-2011, 08:43 PM
Hi Johannes,

I would just like to say hello and thanks for your classes. I've watched the last two weekends after joining Wet Canvas two weeks ago. I've been painting most of my life and can not believe how much I still did not know. Keep up the good work. I look forward to tomorrow.
Bill

onlinewoman
02-26-2011, 10:16 PM
Wow such great stuff! This is why we need to learn from great artists, to see what we're not seeing, thanks for that!

We are not supposed to copy a nature scene. We are supposed to create our own world based on inspiration and ideas that come from photos.

Yes that makes perfect sense. I guess I was thinking that since trees do not grow naitively on the prairie I wanted to capture something that was, oh I don't know, pure? Untouched? Though if there is a building there then that means someone has 'touched' LOL

I love the idea of adding more elements so that there is more of a story. I think that's the first time I've really thought of it in quite that way but I could easily see myself doing that with many of my photos to add more life and now of course the "Problem" with this one makes perfect sense (in addition to the lines). THANKS!

Johannes Instructor
02-26-2011, 10:27 PM
Wow such great stuff! This is why we need to learn from great artists, to see what we're not seeing, thanks for that!



Yes that makes perfect sense. I guess I was thinking that since trees do not grow naitively on the prairie I wanted to capture something that was, oh I don't know, pure? Untouched? Though if there is a building there then that means someone has 'touched' LOL

I love the idea of adding more elements so that there is more of a story. I think that's the first time I've really thought of it in quite that way but I could easily see myself doing that with many of my photos to add more life and now of course the "Problem" with this one makes perfect sense (in addition to the lines). THANKS!
Don't paint yourself in a corner dear. Maybe a description like that "oh I don't know, pure? Untouched?" maybe work in a cowboy book to set the stage of a lonely place where vultures fly but never waste the opportunity to create the maximum visual impact in a painting.

onlinewoman
02-26-2011, 11:59 PM
Don't paint yourself in a corner dear. Maybe a description like that "oh I don't know, pure? Untouched?" maybe work in a cowboy book to set the stage of a lonely place where vultures fly but never waste the opportunity to create the maximum visual impact in a painting.

Well I took your thoughts to heart. This isn't exactly what I envisioned but maybe that's not such a bad thing. I see your point though.. It's about creating your own 'vision' using the photo as an entry point, so to speak. I hope this is an improvement.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Feb-2011/192942-prairie-sketch-800.jpg

Joan Agnus
02-27-2011, 06:30 AM
I am really enjoying the classes. I am learning so much.
Thank you, Joan Agnus

Joan Agnus
02-27-2011, 06:33 AM
The tour of the masters given by Kenneth was really well done.. I am fortunate to have gone to Boston to see these paintings. Now I have a new perpective for what I am looking at.

Johannes Instructor
02-27-2011, 09:35 AM
Well I took your thoughts to heart. This isn't exactly what I envisioned but maybe that's not such a bad thing. I see your point though.. It's about creating your own 'vision' using the photo as an entry point, so to speak. I hope this is an improvement.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Feb-2011/192942-prairie-sketch-800.jpg
Yes exactly the photo was not providing an entry point so the eye would run left to right. The more we draw the viewer into the depth of the painting, the better. The design you are indication has more potential. Now I am walking in.

distantriver
02-27-2011, 11:56 AM
Untempered masonite can be safety used and doesn't warp.

Lynn 592
02-27-2011, 12:33 PM
Thank you again Johannes for these classes. Your lessons are opening up my eyes!

Lynn

wetbob
02-27-2011, 05:15 PM
Do you mass plan portrait faces to get ultra 3d?

Does it also count for drawing faces. Do you use value 9 and 10 in drawing faces?
Thnx WB

tvandeb
02-27-2011, 05:42 PM
Johannes, Kenneth;
Thank you for the valuble information today.
I did have a question posted but it was after the webinar ended. "Would it not be better; after you crop your photo and change the shapes: to convert the photo to greyscale to get your 3 values? And have you ever painted from a corrected photo in greyscale; with the painting being in color?


I know Kenneth answerd one of my questions concerning the greyscale that doing the painting in monochrome. I really kind of like that idea.


I understand now why I quit painting in oils 6 months ago; because I was so frustrated. My paintings looked too bland or too busy; Thanks for a wonderful class today!:)

tvandeb
02-27-2011, 05:48 PM
Johannes;
I have one more question.. The 3 values tones taught today; does this also apply to dry media; example; pen and ink, pencil? Or just to watercolor , oils , and pastels?:)
Thank you..

Johannes Instructor
02-27-2011, 07:56 PM
Johannes;
I have one more question.. The 3 values tones taught today; does this also apply to dry media; example; pen and ink, pencil? Or just to watercolor , oils , and pastels?:)
Thank you.. Yes if you work in color just keep thinking in just three distinct values. The in between values which will be more than the 6 will result inadvertently after you mix the diverse colors. However If you work on a gray scale only then you have to use black and white because you don't have color to separate the objects. Yet be conservative with your black. That value can grab the eye and not let go so easily.

Johannes Instructor
02-27-2011, 08:00 PM
Johannes, Kenneth;
Thank you for the valuble information today.
I did have a question posted but it was after the webinar ended. "Would it not be better; after you crop your photo and change the shapes: to convert the photo to greyscale to get your 3 values? And have you ever painted from a corrected photo in greyscale; with the painting being in color?


I know Kenneth answerd one of my questions concerning the greyscale that doing the painting in monochrome. I really kind of like that idea.


I understand now why I quit painting in oils 6 months ago; because I was so frustrated. My paintings looked too bland or too busy; Thanks for a wonderful class today!:)

Good question many times I paint in color only using a black and white photo. I do that when the photo has monochromatic monotonous greens so I add my own colors.

Johannes Instructor
02-27-2011, 08:02 PM
Do you mass plan portrait faces to get ultra 3d?

Does it also count for drawing faces. Do you use value 9 and 10 in drawing faces?
Thnx WB yes portrait artists also think in 3 values to bring out the face protrusions and indentations. Again more value will come out inadvertently after the painting is finished. By all means use all the values from white to black when drawing in grays. The concept about not going past a value 7 for objects applies OUTDOORS in BROAD daylight because the sun is so powerful that it will send so much reflected light that landscape object don't go darker than a 7. Still lifes and indoor subjects you can use the entire 10 value range because we don't have that powerful sun inside a room. But still be careful with lifeless and colorless darks. Take into account that after a value 7 (8, 9 10) any dark color will not show its hue any longer unless you are close enough to touch it. Use values 8 9 & 10 conservatively. Why would anyone want to show a spot on a painting where you cannot call out its hue unless he has a real good reason to include it?

Valerieart
02-27-2011, 08:43 PM
Hi Johannes,

Could you briefly explain the use of "Thumbnail Sketches" I seem to have missed that lesson/

Thank you for your time.
Valerie

Johannes Instructor
02-27-2011, 08:47 PM
Hi Johannes,

Could you briefly explain the use of "Thumbnail Sketches" I seem to have missed that lesson/

Thank you for your time.
Valerie

We didn't go into it except a bit. I just showed one how I solved something. This will be addressed much more next weekend. Basically thumbnail sketches are for working out the problems in a mini format before going into the painting.

rugman
02-27-2011, 09:03 PM
Question- Can you have a painting with no mid darks? .... just light mid and mid.... using mid darks for accents. Thumbnail would consist of only sky and land/terrain/leafy trees.

Or would it be better to add a mid dark mass if ref photo does not have one?

Thanks a bunch. Tell Ken I learned a lot from his lecture on Saturday, it was a nice addition to the class.

DeboraM
02-27-2011, 10:16 PM
Johannes - thanks for another incredible webinar weekend! I am so new at art I am still afraid to seriously put paint to paper/canvas for fear of wasting it and not being good enough, but you have given me hope, and I do understand what is being taught for a change.

However, after watching a show tonight about gifted children, I have more questions than answers. Could you comment on child prodigies, particularly - Kieron Williamson from England? I went to his site to see his work and, his age and genius aside, I am trying to view his paintings by applying what you have been teaching us regarding mass values, melodic lines, etc. and have difficulty with some of them. Is it just the sensation of his abilities and gift at his age, or am I not seeing what I am supposed to yet?
Thanks
Debora

crystalhart`
02-28-2011, 11:38 AM
Thank you for your wonderful knowledge and information.

Amandine
02-28-2011, 01:09 PM
Johannes, you're a real master! The lessons you gave us on 26th and 27th were so «enrichissantes» (sorry, don't know the word in english), I learned so much. «Je vois la lumière au bout du tunnel.» I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel ; no, not exactly. I'm starting to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I had a teacher who talked a lot about values but, never he even showed us a strip of values and how to use them. And never he mentioned how to apply this knowledge of values in a sketch. Of course, forget about abstract shapes ; this was ignored too. This matter has been a revelation for me.
Again, thank you so much for your generosity.
Amandine

Johannes Instructor
02-28-2011, 02:18 PM
Johannes, you're a real master! The lessons you gave us on 26th and 27th were so «enrichissantes» (sorry, don't know the word in english), I learned so much. «Je vois la lumière au bout du tunnel.» I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel ; no, not exactly. I'm starting to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I had a teacher who talked a lot about values but, never he even showed us a strip of values and how to use them. And never he mentioned how to apply this knowledge of values in a sketch. Of course, forget about abstract shapes ; this was ignored too. This matter has been a revelation for me.
Again, thank you so much for your generosity.
Amandine
Thank you. Sounds like this is a typical story I keep hearing and what i was tlaking about last night. This concepts cannot be vague because they are essential to know.

Johannes Instructor
02-28-2011, 02:19 PM
Do you mass plan portrait faces to get ultra 3d?

Does it also count for drawing faces. Do you use value 9 and 10 in drawing faces?
Thnx WB
just think in three values for the face. You need to add a few more for hair and clothes but if you think in three values for flesh tones you will be able to manipulate the planes easily.

Johannes Instructor
02-28-2011, 02:34 PM
Question- Can you have a painting with no mid darks? .... just light mid and mid.... using mid darks for accents. Thumbnail would consist of only sky and land/terrain/leafy trees.

Or would it be better to add a mid dark mass if ref photo does not have one?

Thanks a bunch. Tell Ken I learned a lot from his lecture on Saturday, it was a nice addition to the class. Yes definitely you can avoid mid darks all together in some cases and the painting. A beach scene would be an example of this. Or if you have winter scene with snow which will be high key the bare trees can be mid value. In fact the idea is to reduce mid darks as much as you can get away with it. The more mid values you offer the viewer, the more the colors will show. Colors start to become dull once you are past a mid value. You are correct you can use a higher key accent because the darkness of an accent to relative to what is around it.

mimico92
02-28-2011, 02:35 PM
Hi, Johannes,

I am getting so much out of this class, thank you!

What version of Photoshop Elements are you using? Can you explain what tool(s) you use and what you do to darken shapes, as you did on the foreground rocks yesterday?

Marie

Johannes Instructor
02-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Question- Can you have a painting with no mid darks? .... just light mid and mid.... using mid darks for accents. Thumbnail would consist of only sky and land/terrain/leafy trees.

Or would it be better to add a mid dark mass if ref photo does not have one?

Thanks a bunch. Tell Ken I learned a lot from his lecture on Saturday, it was a nice addition to the class. Yes definitely you can avoid mid darks all together in some cases and if painting does not need it. A beach scene would be an example of this. Or if you have winter scene with snow which will be high key the bare trees can be mid value. In fact the idea is to reduce mid darks as much as you can get away with it. The more mid values you offer the viewer, the more the colors will show. Colors start to become dull once you are past a mid value. You are correct you can use a higher key accent because the darkness of an accent to relative to what is around it.

Johannes Instructor
02-28-2011, 02:42 PM
Hi, Johannes,

I am getting so much out of this class, thank you!

What version of Photoshop Elements are you using? Can you explain what tool(s) you use and what you do to darken shapes, as you did on the foreground rocks yesterday?

Marie

Robert Sloan what is the name of that adobe wanna-be software again?

Johannes Instructor
02-28-2011, 02:46 PM
Hi, Johannes,

I am getting so much out of this class, thank you!

What version of Photoshop Elements are you using? Can you explain what tool(s) you use and what you do to darken shapes, as you did on the foreground rocks yesterday?

Marie

I hear this does the same and it is free. I have not tried it yet http://www.gimp.org/ (http://www.gimp.org/)

I'm using photoshop elements version 9. It costs about 120 dollars. But I have been told the software above is just as good.

ColourSplasher
02-28-2011, 05:04 PM
moved to week 5 discussion thread

carol_lee
03-02-2011, 01:57 AM
This is probably a stupid question but this weekend I am on babysitting duty and will be at another computer... will I be able to use my link on a different computer than the one I registered at??? It will probably have a different ISP than mine?

Thanks for these lessons... the teaching goes far beyond just landscape painting..
carol

wetbob
03-02-2011, 09:02 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Feb-2011/100299-1.JPG

I thought this one was flat, may be due to neglecting values. It s from a newspaper with few colour done in about 3 or 4 hours. Maybe i can create my own world here, should try it, and dont follow the photo. I ve never considered values the way you see it and planning masses. I ll try to train it with every portrait:thumbsup:

Thnx Yohannes, i ve learned a lot

Johannes Instructor
03-02-2011, 10:09 AM
I thought this one was flat, may be due to neglecting values. It s from a newspaper with few colour done in about 3 or 4 hours. Maybe i can create my own world here, should try it, and dont follow the photo. I ve never considered values the way you see it and planning masses. I ll try to train it with every portrait:thumbsup:

Thnx Yohannes, i ve learned a lot
I think you should ease off on the values of the wrinkles. This is where you defiintely should contradict the photo.

Johannes Instructor
03-02-2011, 10:11 AM
This is probably a stupid question but this weekend I am on babysitting duty and will be at another computer... will I be able to use my link on a different computer than the one I registered at??? It will probably have a different ISP than mine?

Thanks for these lessons... the teaching goes far beyond just landscape painting..
carol
Yes you can access the web class from any computer in the world. I have students take the class with an air card while on the road. Just make sure you use the code you get in the email when you log in.

pixieartist
03-05-2011, 01:48 AM
Hi Johannes, I have just started your Landscapes from Photos course Feb 26.:) Wish I had known about it long ago, before Christmas! It has taken a couple of weeks to get registered and to find this thread etc. I have found Robert Sloan's notes and have them printed off. Thank-you very much Robert for your wonderful notes:thumbsup::clap:. They are so neat, concise, easy to follow etc etc!
I was wondering if I need to send you the homework from all the previous classes. I was able to do last Sat's and now need to figure out how to get it from my saved file to you. I have been told that I am technically challenged:confused: and there are days when I agree. So I'll just hope for the best, for now! At any rate, thanks very much for doing this course. I really enjoyed your lessons last Sat and Sun!:) and learned a lot! Hope to talk with you again real soon:wave:. Kyna

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 07:32 AM
Hi Johannes, I have just started your Landscapes from Photos course Feb 26.:) Wish I had known about it long ago, before Christmas! It has taken a couple of weeks to get registered and to find this thread etc. I have found Robert Sloan's notes and have them printed off. Thank-you very much Robert for your wonderful notes:thumbsup::clap:. They are so neat, concise, easy to follow etc etc!
I was wondering if I need to send you the homework from all the previous classes. I was able to do last Sat's and now need to figure out how to get it from my saved file to you. I have been told that I am technically challenged:confused: and there are days when I agree. So I'll just hope for the best, for now! At any rate, thanks very much for doing this course. I really enjoyed your lessons last Sat and Sun!:) and learned a lot! Hope to talk with you again real soon:wave:. Kyna
Don't worry you are going to get enough homework with the mass planning thumbnails you will be doing.

jtburton
03-05-2011, 12:34 PM
Johannes
Is this what you are talking about regarding mass planning? I have taken the reference photo and tried to make puzzle pieces out of the masses, i.e. sky, mountains, background trees, etc. Then these puzzle pieces will be detailed with color in the value ranges they belong to. Sky and mountains will be painted in values 2&3 etc.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Mar-2011/59338-Copy_of_GrassyPass_026.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Mar-2011/59338-mass_study2.jpg

I have also tried to keep the shapes abstract and the lines melodic. I hope I made it.

N.Ramchandran
03-05-2011, 12:57 PM
I am a new member and have been attending the art class regularly. Drawing & painting has been a hobby and even though I have not done many landscape, the few that I did, somehow seemed to be lacking something. Now I now why they were not good from my owm point of view.
I am not very computer savy and have been struggling to get even into this forum. Hope I will be able to upload some pictures and homeworks.

Many thanks for the wonderful instructions.

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 01:06 PM
Johannes
Is this what you are talking about regarding mass planning? I have taken the reference photo and tried to make puzzle pieces out of the masses, i.e. sky, mountains, background trees, etc. Then these puzzle pieces will be detailed with color in the value ranges they belong to. Sky and mountains will be painted in values 2&3 etc.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Mar-2011/59338-Copy_of_GrassyPass_026.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Mar-2011/59338-mass_study2.jpg

I have also tried to keep the shapes abstract and the lines melodic. I hope I made it.
You are getting there, Today and tomorrow it will all be clear. I promise. Don't miss today's class. It is too important.

caemin
03-05-2011, 01:53 PM
Thanks to you and Ken for a great class, Johannes! When will the questions and answers from last week's webinar be posted and will they be posted in this thread?

eviepatra
03-05-2011, 05:51 PM
????????Hello! In pastels for the same color there are about 5 sticks from Light to Dark. these are the values for this color?

For examble

in permanent red color -Rembrandt soft pastels-, the sticks
numbers 371,3 371,5 371,7 371.8 371,9 are they represents the values for this color?

B4painter
03-05-2011, 05:52 PM
I'm writing up my notes from Dec. and came across this...When you add blue snow and it is contained to small portions place it in the crevices because the sun never shines so that area is the last to melt. The color is mostly blue violet. Warm lights can be a warm greythen use orange grey against a grey violet. Is this correct?

Q: Also this Opas in Etobicoke do you know what this way by any chanch

dljaques
03-05-2011, 06:06 PM
Thank you for the excellent lessons have not missed one yet and have ordered 3 books.

My question: What is Ken's last name and does he have a website???

pat-trew
03-05-2011, 06:16 PM
Please Repeat What Homework Is For Sun Mar 6th, Thank You Pat.t

pastelpainter62
03-05-2011, 06:22 PM
Johannes, you are a gem. My compliments on these innovative, interesting, and so very informative webinars. And for taking time to get these new ideas into our heads - we do need repetition. I have learned so much, a lot of it contradictory to what I learned previously, and things are becoming clearer!

Looking forward to tomorrow,
BB Hahn
who roosts in pinyon-juniper grasslands south of Pueblo, CO

Laura2011
03-05-2011, 06:49 PM
Johannes, you said in today´s class that you do not use mediums, only liquin which I understood is from Winsor and Newton. I use Artisan´s water soluble oils for health reasons but I prefer normal oils, and as I am learning to paint in glazes I have to thin the paint which I normally do with water.. Can I use liquin to thin the paint like turpentine does? and is liquin safer than turpentine?.

Another question : I think that I understood the lesson on values but could you do a demo of how to apply them?. Thank you again for your help.

sherrysherman
03-05-2011, 06:54 PM
????????Hello! In pastels for the same color there are about 5 sticks from Light to Dark. these are the values for this color?

For examble

in permanent red color -Rembrandt soft pastels-, the sticks
numbers 371,3 371,5 371,7 371.8 371,9 are they represents the values for this color?

The single digits after the 3-digit number do signify value, in Rembrandts anyhow (different brands have their own systems). However, they are not necessarily identical to the values on the 10-value scale. In the first place, the higher the number the lighter, which is the opposite of the scale we've been using. Secondly, there are more than 10 numbers. Thirdly, a "5" or a "7" in one hue is not necessarily identical in value to a 5 or a 7 in another hue.

So you cannot just take the 371,3 and assume that's a mid-light; that the 371,5 is a mid, and the 371,7 is a mid-dark. The best way to sort by value is to take a white sheet of paper and color little blocks of color next to each other. As you put one color next to another, squint at the edge between them. If the edge disappears, they are the same (or close to the same) value.

Sorting your pastels by value in this way is a long, time-consuming process, but I have found it worthwhile. I have arranged my primary supply in groups by value, then by hue within values. That makes it easier to paint within a value range, changing hues and intensities to suit the painting. (As I pull out sticks to use in a particular painting, I keep them sorted so that I can return them to their right place in my main supply.)

One thing I am FINALLY and NEWLY learning is NOT to reach for those dark values to "add contrast" or (ack) "match the photo." Also, NOT to stick those dark marks and light marks into masses of different values. As we are learning, that makes it look busy and can also jerk the eye around, or grab it and hold it. Not what we want, but something I see in so many of my paintings.

A longer answer than I planned, but hope it helped. :)

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Thank you for the excellent lessons have not missed one yet and have ordered 3 books.

My question: What is Ken's last name and does he have a website???
http://cyberartlearning.com/KennethGallery

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 07:00 PM
Thanks to you and Ken for a great class, Johannes! When will the questions and answers from last week's webinar be posted and will they be posted in this thread?
Yes will be posted tomorrow morning.

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 07:01 PM
The single digits after the 3-digit number do signify value, in Rembrandts anyhow (different brands have their own systems). However, they are not necessarily identical to the values on the 10-value scale. In the first place, the higher the number the lighter, which is the opposite of the scale we've been using. Secondly, there are more than 10 numbers. Thirdly, a "5" or a "7" in one hue is not necessarily identical in value to a 5 or a 7 in another hue.

So you cannot just take the 371,3 and assume that's a mid-light; that the 371,5 is a mid, and the 371,7 is a mid-dark. The best way to sort by value is to take a white sheet of paper and color little blocks of color next to each other. As you put one color next to another, squint at the edge between them. If the edge disappears, they are the same (or close to the same) value.

Sorting your pastels by value in this way is a long, time-consuming process, but I have found it worthwhile. I have arranged my primary supply in groups by value, then by hue within values. That makes it easier to paint within a value range, changing hues and intensities to suit the painting. (As I pull out sticks to use in a particular painting, I keep them sorted so that I can return them to their right place in my main supply.)

One thing I am FINALLY and NEWLY learning is NOT to reach for those dark values to "add contrast" or (ack) "match the photo." Also, NOT to stick those dark marks and light marks into masses of different values. As we are learning, that makes it look busy and can also jerk the eye around, or grab it and hold it. Not what we want, but something I see in so many of my paintings.

A longer answer than I planned, but hope it helped. :)
AMEN!

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 07:05 PM
Johannes, you said in today´s class that you do not use mediums, only liquin which I understood is from Winsor and Newton. I use Artisan´s water soluble oils for health reasons but I prefer normal oils, and as I am learning to paint in glazes I have to thin the paint which I normally do with water.. Can I use liquin to thin the paint like turpentine does? and is liquin safer than turpentine?.

Another question : I think that I understood the lesson on values but could you do a demo of how to apply them?. Thank you again for your help.
I don't use mediums for normally painting. I apply Liquin when the painting is dry and I want to work on top of it and don't want cut out pasted on edges. Liquin makes a good glazing medium, the best I have used so far. I apply it directly to the canvas , then rub off with a cloth the excess left over and apply my color into the wet medium. I do not prepare this mixture separately in a bowl like others. I do not reduce the liquin with any solvent. I use it straight out of jar so it sticks nicely on the surface. If you add medium to it it will not adhere well.

gpd2543
03-05-2011, 07:14 PM
Johannes, I am really new to painting and love your classes, I am however really struggling to understand "value" I just can't seem to wrap my mind around what value means when it comes to painting. What is the difference between value and color hue or satuation. Is there some way or terms you could use that can help me understand. I know the white to black is different degrees of shades of black, but how does that apply to color?
Thank you for your help.

Tresgatos
03-05-2011, 08:14 PM
Johannes,

Thank you for today's session - very informative.

You mentioned you were going to post photos for tonight's Homework but for some reason I can't find it. Can you tell me what the title is?

Barbara

Tresgatos
03-05-2011, 08:18 PM
It just showed up under Upload... thanks

maxdawn
03-05-2011, 09:59 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Mar-2011/12193-homework3aq.jpg
There now it is right side up. :lol:

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 11:10 PM
Johannes, I am really new to painting and love your classes, I am however really struggling to understand "value" I just can't seem to wrap my mind around what value means when it comes to painting. What is the difference between value and color hue or satuation. Is there some way or terms you could use that can help me understand. I know the white to black is different degrees of shades of black, but how does that apply to color?
Thank you for your help.

Value - the degree of how dark or light something is normally referenced in gray tones. Honestly I think the term is a misnomer but it is so widely used I kept the term in my lingo. Example peanut butter is a darker hue than an orange peel. Salt is a lighter value than pepper.
Saturation - The degree of how strong a pigment is. Example cadmium orange is more garish than burnt sienna so its hue is more saturated.
Hue = the color as it would present itself in purity. Example: yellow, red and blue are three primary hues. Whatever you mix from those three become more hues, such as green then blue green etc. Normally we refer to 12 hues.
Color - an informal reference to hue, a nickname if you will, Normally when we name a pigment such as burnt sienna as being a color but the hue of it is orange red on the color wheel. The color is a result of the final result after darkening the hue or lightening it. I suggest you do some research on this online.

Johannes Instructor
03-05-2011, 11:16 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Mar-2011/12193-homework3aq.jpg
There now it is right side up. :lol:

Please don't tell me the values. Show me them in mass sketches.

onlinewoman
03-06-2011, 12:18 AM
Hi Johannes! Two quick questions.

First you mentioned in class on Saturday about freezing oils when not in use to keep them fresh. I use water mixable oils, can they be froze as well?

Second, when doing a grisaille under painting with three general value areas, would you use a separate light and dark value for each of the three general areas (which seems to make sense but that really means you would be using 6 values in this case) or what am I missing?

eviepatra
03-06-2011, 03:22 AM
The single digits after the 3-digit number do signify value, in Rembrandts anyhow (different brands have their own systems). However, they are not necessarily identical to the values on the 10-value scale. In the first place, the higher the number the lighter, which is the opposite of the scale we've been using. Secondly, there are more than 10 numbers. Thirdly, a "5" or a "7" in one hue is not necessarily identical in value to a 5 or a 7 in another hue.

So you cannot just take the 371,3 and assume that's a mid-light; that the 371,5 is a mid, and the 371,7 is a mid-dark. The best way to sort by value is to take a white sheet of paper and color little blocks of color next to each other. As you put one color next to another, squint at the edge between them. If the edge disappears, they are the same (or close to the same) value.

Sorting your pastels by value in this way is a long, time-consuming process, but I have found it worthwhile. I have arranged my primary supply in groups by value, then by hue within values. That makes it easier to paint within a value range, changing hues and intensities to suit the painting. (As I pull out sticks to use in a particular painting, I keep them sorted so that I can return them to their right place in my main supply.)

One thing I am FINALLY and NEWLY learning is NOT to reach for those dark values to "add contrast" or (ack) "match the photo." Also, NOT to stick those dark marks and light marks into masses of different values. As we are learning, that makes it look busy and can also jerk the eye around, or grab it and hold it. Not what we want, but something I see in so many of my paintings.

A longer answer than I planned, but hope it helped. :)

Thank you so much Sherry:heart: !
I am new in pastels and your answer along with Johannes's lessons helps me see how many mistakes I have done in my paintings. :thumbsup:

raxu
03-06-2011, 07:56 AM
Johannes,
once again, your lessons are a treasure with lots of gold nuggets :thumbsup:

One simple question (I'm blond:D ): is there any "trick" or not too difficult way to learn, which colors/hues are to be considered as mid light/mid/mid dark... I mean, without needing to take photos of the painting all the time, loading them to computer, changing to grey scale... and then knowing how to proceed with the painting?
I mean, how do you learn to see within which area of values you are "moving"? I can easily see that in grey scale bun on the canvas/on the paper... how can you tell? Instinctively? Just the hard way, experimenting until it works?

I'm painting in watercolors, so adding light would not be possible, it needs to be planned ahead.

Thanks in advance for a (encouraging!?) reply. Appreciate your magnificent help.