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stapeliad
05-01-2011, 02:11 AM
Alexandre Cabanel (28 September 1823 – 23 January 1889)

This is the only Academic style master's thread we are offering this year, so if you are interested in taking a stab at this type of painting, now is a good time. :)

As always, all skill levels are welcome!
You can do the whole painting or just a detail.
Work as large as possible. These are large paintings...my recommendation is no smaller than 24x30. Working too small will make your task much more difficult.

We will also be spending the first two weeks doing drawing studies. This will also give you time to get your supplies from the recommended supply list, if necessary.
Here is a link to Dave's Drawing for Painting thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=835932).

I think it is fairly safe to say Cabanel was influenced by Ingres, in some of his portraits he distorts anatomy in the same way, mainly the arms. I personally find this unappealing but if you want to do one of those distorted paintings feel free. I left them out on purpose.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-May-2011/53789-biopic527-large.jpg

from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Cabanel):

Cabanel was born in Montpellier, Hérault. He painted historical, classical and religious subjects in the academic style. He was also well-known as a portrait painter. According to Diccionario Enciclopedico Salvat, Cabanel is the best representative of the L'art pompier and Napoleon III's preferred painter.[1]

He entered the École des Beaux-Arts in Paris at the age of seventeen. Cabanel studied with François-Édouard Picot and exhibited at the Paris Salon for the first time in 1844, and won the Prix de Rome scholarship in 1845 at the age of twenty two. Cabanel was elected a member of the Institute in 1863 and appointed professor at the École des Beaux-Arts in the same year.

Cabanel won the Grande Médaille d'Honneur at the Salons of 1865, 1867, and 1878.

He was closely connected to the Paris Salon: "He was elected regularly to the Salon jury and his pupils could be counted by the hundred at the Salons. Through them, Cabanel did more than any other artist of his generation to form the character of belle époque French painting".[2] His refusal together with William-Adolphe Bouguereau to allow the impressionist painter Édouard Manet and other painters to exhibit their work in the Salon of 1863 led to the establishment of the Salon des Refusés.

Our selection of paintings this month include:

The Roman Monk
I don't see a size listed for this one but it would probably work out pretty well on a 24x30. Isn't the sky great?

Art Renewal Link (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=857&size=large)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-May-2011/53789-the_roman_monk-large.jpg

The Birth of Venus
225 x 130 cm
(7' 4.58" x 4' 3.18")
There are two versions of this painting- one in France and one right here in NYC. You can find the listing on Art Renewal (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=10891&size=large) but I don't like the image there, the color is weird, so I am posting one I took. I have a hi-res image, which I will upload and post a little later.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-May-2011/53789-IMG_5459_1.jpg


Portrait Of Young Lady
78 x 127 cm
(30.71" x 4' 2")

Art Renewal Link (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=9427&size=large)
The light in this painting is beautiful, I can feel the sun shining on the lady. This would be a great painting to do if you want to work with white fabric.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-May-2011/53789-portrait_of_young_lady-large.jpg

Samson and Delilah
ARC link (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=39230&size=large)
92.7 x 64.8 cm
(3' x 25.51")

Delilah has some cool stuff happening in her headdress. This painting would also be good for a cropped hand or head study.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-May-2011/53789-Cabanel_ALexandre_Samson_and_Delilah_1878_Oil_on_Canvas-large.jpg

stapeliad
05-01-2011, 02:23 AM
LET'S TALK ABOUT HALF-TONES, BABY!

Other than the standard drawing practice, discussion of painting technique, and brush mileage, there is something very important I want to focus on, which Cabanel's work lends itself nicely to, and that is half-tones.

Actually, I am going to defer to Stapleton Kearns (http://stapletonkearns.blogspot.com/) to talk about half tones because he presents it so well.

There are three blog posts of his that I would like for you to read. They are short posts and you will learn a lot.

1. About the Subtlety of Half Tones (http://stapletonkearns.blogspot.com/2011/03/william-bouguereau-courtesy-artrenewal.html)

2. What Are Half Tones? (http://stapletonkearns.blogspot.com/2011/03/what-are-halftones.html)

3. Sporadic Firing Along the Half Tone Front (http://stapletonkearns.blogspot.com/2011/03/goodbye-liz-taylor-i-received-more.html)

I have a few more resources about this to share, but right now it is 2:30am and my brain just quit.

stapeliad
05-01-2011, 02:28 AM
Stapleton Kearn's half tone wisdom:

REMEMBER, THE LIGHT AND THE SHADOW ARE WHOLLY DIFFERENT WORLDS AND NO VALUE OCCURS IN BOTH!

and

THERE ARE ONLY TWO WORLDS IN THE VALUES, THE WORLD OF THE LIGHTS AND THE WORLD OF THE SHADOWS, AND EVERYTHING IS EITHER IN ONE OR THE OTHER. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE!

We'll talk more about this when we start drawing. Please do join in!

!becca
05-01-2011, 09:45 AM
Jessica, great work compiling all this, and interesting selection of paintings.:thumbsup: I will be reading and following along.

moscatel
05-01-2011, 12:53 PM
Venus looks nice. I'm tempted to paint it. I think it's the easiest one ... but is it after all? -> remains to be seen!
Started the first pencil lines today. I'm glad that we will have plenty of time to progress with the paintings. This will be my first try to paint figure.

Marigold
05-01-2011, 02:10 PM
Jessica, thank you for introducing another interesting master study! Thanks also for all the background information. I don't care much for most of Cabanel's mythological and historicl paintings incl. Venus :envy:, they are so staged and artificial. But he seems to have been a very good portrait painter.

The young Lady from your selection is more than lovely :heart:! I am not sure yet if I am ready to make this commitment - it is a very involved painting, and a good bit beyond my current skill level. Will anybody be able to tell me how to achieve these soft skin tones and fabrics? (without lead white :crying:)

Susanne

lovin art
05-01-2011, 02:10 PM
Groovey, Im there!! ~ Venus is my pick of course .....well done Guys !!:clap:

moscatel
05-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Will anybody be able to tell me how to achieve these soft skin tones and fabrics?
What kind of whites are you using for the fabrics?
For me works fine Cremnitz White (Michael Harding). It was mixed with walnut oil and I loved it because it was slow drying and I'm a slow painter.
Now I ran out of it and can't get it more from here. So at the moment I'm switching to Flake White. I just purchased Flake White (M. Harding as well) and never used it before but I have high hopes that it would work fine (for the white fabrics especially etc.)

lovin art
05-01-2011, 03:26 PM
I would use the flake but thats me, it will work fine , of course FLAKE WHITE hue wont contain lead if thats whats worrying you Susanne

Marigold
05-01-2011, 03:53 PM
moscatel, do you live in within the European Union if yes where do you buy Chremnitz/Flake White? Yes Sandra, W&N Flake white hue will be my choice but I'm afraid it is not the same at all as real lead white. Anyway I certainly will need help with skin and all the other subtle stuff if I decide to do this painting.

Susanne

NancyMP
05-01-2011, 04:41 PM
Susanne, you can get Cremnitz White from Old Holland or from Winsor & Newton, too!

NancyMP
05-01-2011, 04:45 PM
:clap:Jessica,:heart: we know you work a 40-hour week, and you have a small child, and you do plein air, as well as care for various pets. Congrats on getting such a well-researched masters thread up in your "spare" time!:thumbsup:

moscatel
05-01-2011, 05:47 PM
The new Flake white (M.Harding) I bought from here:
http://www.michaelharding.co.uk/buynow.php#GE
Yep, EU it is. I live in Finland and in the above link you can see where the retailers are in each country. Germany is right below Finland in the list. You have several places where you can buy. Hope you can find one near where you live.

Where I normally buy by mail (because I get the materials a lot cheaper the shipping included!) is Zecchi's in Florence. Besides it becomes cheaper but also because I can't get good quality painting materials from my country at all execpt the M.Harding paints now. My last order from them came in one night from Florence to my front door! Zecchi's page is: http://www.zecchi.it/ Their selection is big and I can not see all the materials that they have in the store in their web page either. They have pretty much everything in the store since they supply the artists with art materials in Florence so they must have all the best stuff available and cheaper than in Germany or in my country.

stapeliad
05-01-2011, 06:54 PM
Will anybody be able to tell me how to achieve these soft skin tones and fabrics?'

Hi Susanne, that is exactly why we are going to focus on values and talk about half tones. They are magic.

Welcome to the thread everyone!
And thanks Nancy! :heart:

Sunu Tri
05-01-2011, 07:49 PM
Wow. I think this one is beyond my capacity :D
I'll sit and watch for now. But this is definitely a good choice from Jessica.
Thanks jessica :)

Fleffyjen
05-02-2011, 05:13 AM
Well done, jessica, nice choices and great research :clap::clap:

Bit torn not sure if I have time for one - but love the girl portrait and the deliah one- deliah may well be out of my league though - but what lovely tones......:envy:

pcj
05-02-2011, 05:23 AM
Here's a quick charcoal sketch of the monk.
I cropped it to just head and shoulders.
It contains numerous errors !
Patricia

pcj
05-02-2011, 10:47 AM
Hello Everyone,

Just to add a few details to my previous post [ sorry it was
so brief - it was the middle of the night ]

The sketch was a relatively quick sketch done in vine
charcoal on 8 1/2 x 11" Strathmore charcoal paper to get
a feel for the subject.

I'll do a longer sketch to work on values and hope to
attempt it in oils [ I've never painted before - I'm a
figurative sculptor -clay, bronze, stone and also draw
in charcoal, conte etc ]

Re: the sketch - critiques welcome - his cranium looks
a bit flat to me :)

Patricia

!becca
05-02-2011, 10:58 AM
Patricia, how exciting this will be your first attempt with oils. I think your drawing looks very good, I have not looked at it and the reference on the same page, but his forehead may slope back slightly more in the reference, you might want to check that. I think he appears a little flat maybe due to the perspective.

tommie
05-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Wow, I love your choices. I am actually going to try my very first Painting with the Masters! (I hope anyway) Thanks for doing this.

pcj
05-02-2011, 06:18 PM
Becca,
Thankyou for your reply, I checked the sketch
side by side with the original as you suggested
and the cranium definitely was not quite right !

I've raised it [the skull] quite a bit in the sketch
below .
what do you use for the underpainting ? - Do you use
a very small amount of turps to make the paint
workable or mixture of turps and oil and then just straight
paint or paint and oil for the rest of the painting ?

Patricia

!becca
05-02-2011, 07:14 PM
Patricia, I use turps with my paint for my underpaintings and medium mix with oil and turp for painting afterward. You want to follow the rule of fat over lean when using oils. It is possible to paint nicely with no medium or turp if you prefer. Your sketch is looking very good to me now.

stapeliad
05-02-2011, 07:46 PM
More on Light and shadow..........

Here is a page from James Gurney's Color and Light. (http://www.amazon.com/Color-Light-Guide-Realist-Painter/dp/0740797719/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304378901&sr=8-1)

I don't say this about many things, but I think absolutely every single person who is serious about studying representational visual arts should own a copy of this book.

Page 46

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2011/53789-page1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2011/53789-page1_2.jpg

******************

Ok, I have stuffed your heads full of theory and concepts (hopefully). Now let's apply it to our drawings.

In this project i am going to focus more on value structures and analyzing the image values rather than on how to draw, transfer, etc...those things have been covered. (Please see the link for Drawing for Painting on the first page of this thread.)

I would also love for anyone to chime in and share your expertise on this matter, especially those of you who work extensively with the Munsell value scales. (Dave? Mary??)

****************

When you first look at your image, it is a good idea to think about a few things:
1) where is the direction of the light?
2) What kind of light is it (source, intensity)
3) Where is/are the bedbug lines?

Try It!
Let's play Find the Bedbug Lines!
Post black and white images of the painting you are working on with your bedbug lines marked. :)

If you need me to do grayscale conversions for you, let me know.

****************

Grisaille underpainting is optional. Feel free to work in either method, grisaille/glazes or direct layers of thin paint. I haven't decided what I am doing yet. Probably a tight full value drawing, then color layers in the painting.

***************

Post your bedbugs! :D

stapeliad
05-02-2011, 07:48 PM
Patricia, your revisions on the sketch look great. We will cover getting the drawing on the canvas, but we won't be there yet for a couple of weeks.

You are off to a great start!

stapeliad
05-02-2011, 08:12 PM
Venus In Space

Let's look for a minute at how Venus is lying in three dimensional space.

This is not a natural pose...and it isn't supposed to be. Our Frenchmen were the forefathers of Photoshop airbrushing.

Let's take a look at her angles.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2011/53789-venus_in_space.jpg

First, notice the overall gesture of the pose. Her body is twisted at the waist- she is not laying flat. Her shoulders are further back in space (shows off her boobs better! :D) and her right hip is moving forward towards us. I marked the torque with little arrows. Her right knee is also coming forward towards us, it is a little bit foreshortened. When working on her, it will help you to think of the body as alternating parts that move and parts that do not move. This will help you get the twistiness in the right places. (HINT: parts that move are joints.) Also think about where her weight is resting and the points of tension in the body.

Just something to think about when you are drawing her.

dollardays
05-02-2011, 08:42 PM
Thanks for putting this together Jessica. I had never heard of this artist and I am always glad to be introduced to another master! I am not too fond of nymphs and such but I do find the portrait fascinating so I might give that one a try!

Can't go wrong when you focus on values-- the KEY thing to remember is...the lightest value in the shadow will still be darker than the darkest value in the light. Even if that shadow value represents the color white. :)

stapeliad
05-02-2011, 09:00 PM
Ah Nora, :D you beat me to it. I was going to post this tomorrow, but here goes.......

This is from Kevin Macpherson's book Landscape Painting Inside and Out. (http://www.amazon.com/Landscape-Painting-Inside-Out-Vitality/dp/1581807554/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1304384280&sr=8-3)

page 35

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2011/53789-page2.jpg

easier to read:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2011/53789-page2_2.jpg

stapeliad
05-02-2011, 09:04 PM
Nora's value wisdom is another way of saying exactly the same thing as Stapleton Kearn's value wisdom. :D

Highlighted for emphasis:

the KEY thing to remember is...the lightest value in the shadow will still be darker than the darkest value in the light. Even if that shadow value represents the color white

Keep your value families separate! They separate at the bedbug line.

dollardays
05-02-2011, 09:15 PM
WOW- MacPherson's images say it all! Great thread Jessica! You are a natural born teacher. :)

stapeliad
05-02-2011, 09:22 PM
Nora you are too kind... :heart: I am actually nervous doing this thread because I am NOT an expert.....and a lot of real experts hang around here...so I hope someone corrects me if I stuff up. :o

NancyMP
05-02-2011, 11:18 PM
Jessica, I just wish you would say terminator instead of bedbug line ... bedbugs are not funny...:o

stapeliad
05-02-2011, 11:27 PM
I'm sorry Nance but the Terminator scares me. :(

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2011/53789-terminator.jpg

ArtyRolina
05-03-2011, 06:51 AM
This is a fascinating thread, Jessica and although initially I tried to resist it because of time constraints (bah, earning a living, pesky job, moan, moan), I am quite tempted to have a go at drawing Venus. Did you say you had a higher res image?

Thanks so much for organising this, it looks like a lot of hard work, but you are doing a wonderful job!

pcj
05-03-2011, 12:10 PM
More on Light and shadow..........

3) Where is/are the bedbug lines?

Try It!
Let's play Find the Bedbug Lines!
Post black and white images of the painting you are working on with your bedbug lines marked. :)

***************

Post your bedbugs! :D


Here's my attempt.
Patricia

Marigold
05-03-2011, 01:37 PM
Hello Jessica,
I think I am hooked, I will paint the young woman, she has been on my mind for those last days :). I will have to find a large enough support and I will start drawing on the weekend.

Stapleton Kearn's half tone wisdom:
THERE ARE ONLY TWO WORLDS IN THE VALUES, THE WORLD OF THE LIGHTS AND THE WORLD OF THE SHADOWS, AND EVERYTHING IS EITHER IN ONE OR THE OTHER. THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE!
This concept does make sense but if it is true, then there is much less shadow in any form than I had thought. Can we look at my reference for example. The three areas I have circled I would probably have called shadows - 1 or 2 not sure but 3 under the chin certainly. But according to your quote they must belong to the halftones not to the shadows, because they are much lighter than the lights in the hair. The right arm would have no shadow at all (because there are no visible "planes" that are fully turned away from the light)? Can you help me explore this a bit more with this specific painting?

Susanne

mtpalms
05-03-2011, 02:34 PM
I think this example shows the light and shadow quite well (with the exception of her hair), or is there something I am missing? If light is hitting something, it is in the light, if not, it is in shadow, even if there is 'reflected light' (white in shadow being darker than black in the light*). I love reflected light, it's what gives a painting its dimensional look.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2011/208394-portrait_of_young_lady-pos3.jpg
*The cow is an excellent example. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-May-2011/53789-page2.jpg

Marigold
05-03-2011, 04:22 PM
Thanks Marcia. :wave: The cow is a very good illustration, but it is also photographed in extremely strong light unlike the light used in academic portrait painting.
Your posterized Cabanel portrait demonstrates well what my question is about - are the gray areas halftones (belonging to the light family) or are they shadows? Not relevant for any practical purpose but only for understanding the concept of the "light family" and "shadow family", trying to decide if it is a suitable guideline for my color mixing.

REMEMBER, THE LIGHT AND THE SHADOW ARE WHOLLY DIFFERENT WORLDS AND NO VALUE OCCURS IN BOTH!
I decided to test this by finding more examples. To stay within the realm of French academic painting, I took two paintings by Jean-Leon Gerome.

Number one is this fabulous portrait of a African young man. I sampled:
1) the dark skin in the light
2) the white ribbon in the shadow
3) the salmon robe in the shadow
Here it is true - colors of inherently high value (salmon, white) do in the shadow areas appear darker than colors of inherently dark value (brown) appear in the light. But just barely.

Number two, Gerome's dog study:
1) brown head in the light
2) white fur in the darkest shadow area
3) white fur in a lighter shadow area
The lightest point of the brown color is lighter than the darkest point of the white fur, but darker than the lesser shadows on the fur which are still clearly in the shadow area.

In both examples the "separate worlds" of light and shadow are much closer together than the quote might suggest. It appears that except in conditions with strong light and no secondary light sources, it is not so simple to separate light family and shadow family. If I separate my light and shadow mixes I must be careful to not overstate that separation, because I do not want to paint chiaroscuro style (or worst case like in a comic book illustration)

I am not rejecting the good advise given here, just testing its limits for the sake of learning.

Susanne

stapeliad
05-03-2011, 04:33 PM
Sorry all, it works out better for me to respond to this thread in the evenings when I am not at work.

Patricia, your line looks good. You can take it even further by noticing where the shadow parts of individual forms begin, such as in fabric folds and hands. You definitely got the concept though!

Susanne, I was going to do exactly what Marcia already did. (Thanks Marcia!) I'll post some more this evening, can't focus on this at work atm.

stapeliad
05-03-2011, 07:54 PM
Susanne, don't confuse local color with value. Forget about color for now.

Ok, let's take a look at the painting.

FIRST: what direction is the light source? It is an intense light source coming from the (viewer's) right, in front of the face. We know this because of the placement of highlights.

You are quite correct in saying that there is less shadow in the form than you previously thought. This is an excellent observation, and you can apply it to your painting by consciously not making those slightly darker halftones too dark. :thumbsup: One side of her face is slightly darker in value because of the location of the light- but her face, with this off-center frontal light source, is mostly in the light.

Here are the shadow areas marked:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2011/53789-1_shadow_dots.jpg

Here are the strongest highlight areas marked:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2011/53789-2_hilights.jpg

Here are simplified value structures. Notice how she is still recognizable.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2011/53789-2_3_values.jpg

The grey areas below are not in the shadow family, they are half tones in the light family.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-May-2011/53789-2_values2.jpg

I hope this helps. :)

stapeliad
05-03-2011, 08:25 PM
Venus Hi-res image (http://landsofspace.com/Cabanel/cabanel.jpg)

Right click and choose save as, then save to your computer.

ArtyRolina
05-04-2011, 08:35 AM
Venus Hi-res image (http://landsofspace.com/Cabanel/cabanel.jpg)

Right click and choose save as, then save to your computer.

Thanks so much - that is a much better image, indeed!

mij
05-04-2011, 08:57 AM
I'd like to join this thread. I think I have all the necessary except the ability/experience (and big canvases en-route as I type).
At what stages would you advocate posting?
I might need help all the way.......
jim

pcj
05-04-2011, 09:00 AM
Patricia, your line looks good. You can take it even further by noticing where the shadow parts of individual forms begin, such as in fabric folds and hands. You definitely got the concept though!



Stapeliad
Thanks for your reply :) . I've marked a few more terminator lines
in yellow and the highlights in red - also a posterized version in
yellow to make the values easier to see.

stapeliad
05-04-2011, 10:11 AM
Patricia, this looks really great. From here, try a second drawing keeping this value structure in mind. :)

Jim, welcome to the thread. First thing to do is choose your image and find your bedbug (terminator) lines. :)

mij
05-04-2011, 03:31 PM
Ok I'm not sure if this is correct but I am new so anything can happen
jim



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-May-2011/69634-delilah_bedbug.jpg

Marigold
05-04-2011, 04:32 PM
Susanne, ...
FIRST: what direction is the light source? It is an intense light source coming from the (viewer's) right, in front of the face. We know this because of the placement of highlights.

You are quite correct in saying that there is less shadow in the form than you previously thought. This is an excellent observation, and you can apply it to your painting by consciously not making those slightly darker halftones too dark. :thumbsup: One side of her face is slightly darker in value because of the location of the light- but her face, with this off-center frontal light source, is mostly in the light.
Hi Jessica, okay I think I get it now :). This is very good input, thanks for taking the time to get to the heart of my questions.

Patricia, your monk is looking good! It is an interesting painting, I hope we will see you do it in oil?

Jim, I am surprised, with Delilah I would have placed the terminator right down the middle of her cheek. But then the most part of her torso would also be shadow. Your line is probably correct and mine would have been wrong. I guess I am learning that much of what I would have considered shadows are actually halftones. Not sure yet what this will mean for the actual painting process, but this is exactely the kind of insight that I seek out in these master studies.

:clap:
Susanne

stapeliad
05-04-2011, 04:33 PM
Jim, nice try, but not quite. remember, we are looking for where the shadow areas on the form start. FIRST- locate where the light is coming from. In this case, it is coming down from the viewer's right.
Here is a quick value map of Delilah.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-May-2011/53789-delilahs_values.jpg

stapeliad
05-04-2011, 04:36 PM
Susanne you are correct about Delilah's bedbug line. the three greytones on the right are the light family, on the left is the shadow family. Those greys in the light family are half tones.

Isn't this FUN? :D

I hope this is giving you all (lurkers included!!!) new ways of looking at your subjects.
These principles apply to everything, not just academic art.

Marigold
05-04-2011, 04:42 PM
I hope this is giving you all (lurkers included!!!) new ways of looking at your subjects.
You bet! I should go to sleep but instead I am sitting here making shadow experiments with my lamp, my pencil and my tea cup :D

stapeliad
05-04-2011, 05:01 PM
SQUINT. Then you'll see the values really easily. :D

stapeliad
05-05-2011, 07:41 AM
Ok everyone, time to start drawing! Post your drawing studies.

moscatel
05-05-2011, 08:41 PM
Ooops! I guess I jumped directly to the grey scale (grisalle/dead layer, what ever it is called). I have now the grisalle of Venus done. I didn't do a proper drawing to a paper because my drawings won't work out well. They turn out muddy and I'm tired looking at my muddy drawings. I've been going to a life drawing this winter (long pose) but not getting better when drawing figures. So, I started to look for an other approach and now in this thread I began copying the figure by Old Masters. I guess I'll wait until you all reach to the grey scale/painting and then post my painting where its right now?

stapeliad
05-06-2011, 12:01 AM
Venus Tip: if you are painting Venus but do not want to paint the cherubs, replace them with clouds. Don't leave the area blank or the composition will fall apart.

Moscatel welcome to the thread! Sounds like you are ahead...I would still encourage you to do some drawing, especially if it is something you are struggling with. If you don't practice you won't give yourself the opportunity to improve. Your drawings are probably muddy because your values are unclear. This is a great opportunity to work on that. :)

NancyMP
05-06-2011, 12:34 AM
Jessica, how did you know I was planning a Venus without the cherubim?:lol::rolleyes:

Keya
05-06-2011, 12:49 AM
Hi,
I was at the Metropolitan last year and took close up photos of the Venus painting. If you want, I'll post them. If I have time, I'll join, anyway It will be great to watch. This is one of my favourites.

NancyMP
05-06-2011, 12:59 AM
Keya, oh, please do post them! That would be such a great help! And thanks ever so much!

moscatel
05-06-2011, 05:52 AM
...I would still encourage you to do some drawing, especially if it is something you are struggling with. If you don't practice you won't give yourself the opportunity to improve. Your probably right .. I'll try some drawing anyway: maybe more lines to avoid muddy.

Jessica, how did you know I was planning a Venus without the cherubim?:lol::rolleyes:
Nancy, thats how i'm doing it. Only Venus .

Keya, i'm interested. Also photos with the surrounding area, how does the painting look in the wall etc.

donbob
05-06-2011, 07:03 AM
:clap: hi jessica great work your doing.I am going to copy the roman monk. they all look quite difficult though, i like the sky, never painted a sky before first time for everything. will be posting my drawing soon keep an eye on it tend to put noses where eyes should be. On the painting going to use a limited palette [ zorn palette ] trying to improve my colour mixing .donbob .

stapeliad
05-06-2011, 07:23 AM
Jessica, how did you know I was planning a Venus without the cherubim?

Nancy- :lol: because I was originally going to do the same thing so I had to think it through! :D Great minds or something like that. :p

Keya, post your pics! They moved the painting higher up than it used to be, I am too short to take close-ups. :o

Your probably right .. I'll try some drawing anyway: maybe more lines to avoid muddy.

Moscatel, try this: do a drawing and lay in your values but do not blend anything at all. What medium will you use for the drawing? If you have a tendency to go too dark too fast (like me) avoid the charcoal. Use graphite- an HB pencil would be good. Venus doesn't have a lot of dark values in her form so don't use something dark.

donbob, welcome to the thread! I encourage you to find the bedbug/terminator line in the image you want to copy and start there before going to the drawing. I do not recommend a strict Zorn Palette for this project, it is a great palette but not historically accurate to any of these paintings. Especially being new, you would be making your task more difficult.

We will talk about palettes later, right now let's find our value families in the images and draw them. :)

Keya
05-06-2011, 10:40 AM
I had to decrease the resolution so much to be able to post them so the details are lost. Anyway, here are they. Anyone who is interested can send me a message with their e-mail address and then I'll e-mail the full
resolution pictures.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-May-2011/63533-venus_feet.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-May-2011/63533-venus_middle.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-May-2011/63533-venusright.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-May-2011/63533-venus_face.jpg

moscatel
05-06-2011, 11:36 AM
Keya, thanks. This will help in the color layer where i'm heading when the present stage is dry. :clap:

Jessica, i'd be drawing with mechanical pencil.

mij
05-06-2011, 01:30 PM
Jim, nice try, but not quite. remember, we are looking for where the shadow areas on the form start. FIRST- locate where the light is coming from. In this case, it is coming down from the viewer's right.
Here is a quick value map of Delilah.


I was right, I'll need help all the way. I was seeing the shadow area as the occlusion zone - quite erroniously it seems - where no half lights exist.

Never mind, taken that on board now. Moving on draw a detailed image and transfer to the canvas?
jim
PS the two I ordered arrived today :D all 24" X 30" of them.

pcj
05-06-2011, 01:47 PM
Here' my drawing. It's cropped in peculiar places
because it 'grew' off the paper [ I'm not used to
working on that size paper]. As time went on, it
became overworked and clogged with charcoal as I
tried to fix the mistakes. Oh well - here it is in all
it's glory. :)
Patricia

ArtyRolina
05-06-2011, 05:03 PM
I began to mark out the image this evening and here is what I plan to do, a cropped version of Venus, slightly tilted so she is more of a diagonal.

Hopefully, I shall get the charcoal shading on tomorrow when I get home from my weaving workshop (and if I am not too exhausted). I am looking forward to that bit!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-May-2011/959592-carbonelvenusdraw_1_copy.jpg

mij
05-06-2011, 05:34 PM
Oooops did I miss something - are we to draw these on paper and show here first? :(
jim

stapeliad
05-06-2011, 09:34 PM
Keya, those are GREAT close-up images, thank you very much for posting them! :)

Jessica, i'd be drawing with mechanical pencil.

Moscatel... I'd like to strongly encourage you to put the mechanical pencil aside. They are so restricting...great for drafting but they'll make you get all fiddly and tight with your drawing, plus you cannot really vary the pencil stroke or shade large areas properly with the side of the lead. Even a regular old #2 pencil is way better than a mechanical pencil. Please please reconsider this choice.

Jim you are doing great, don't worry about it, this is a learning thread. Now it is time to do your drawing on paper. You can use charcoal, graphite, conte, or any drawing medium. Congrats on your new canvases, how fun. :D Leave them alone for now though.

Everyone:
We are not working in paint or on the canvas yet.
I really, really want you to work out the image and get to know it before jumping onto the canvas. You are doing all your problem solving right now. You are learning the image. You will see where your trouble areas are and then fix them before you paint.

I can't emphasize enough how much this will help you, especially if you think the paintings are too hard or if you are new to painting. Take this drawing opportunity to mess up, learn the forms, learn the values, and study your image.

Patricia, your drawing is right on track, looking great. I have the same wandering problem too.

Rolina, I really like your composition, it is very dynamic. Let's take a step back though, put the canvas aside and do some drawing studies. :)

stapeliad
05-06-2011, 09:37 PM
TIMEFRAME STUFF:

We are drawing until the end of next week.
Then we'll talk about transferring your drawing to the canvas and discuss palette choices. This is a 2 month project, there is no rush whatsoever.

ArtyRolina
05-07-2011, 04:18 AM
OK, will work on paper first - probably a good idea, lol!

I am glad we are going to discuss transferring and palette choices later, I was beginning to worry about those things.

This is such fun, I am enjoying it tremendously already!

Marigold
05-07-2011, 09:39 AM
Hello Keya, thank you so much for those wonderful detail shots of the Venus, it is a very interesting reference for color and application. My memory from the Musee d'Orsay version was a bit different (smoother and more chromatic), but it has been 8 years so it is great have another look :thumbsup:

Hello Patricia, I love your monk, it is a very good and recognizable representation of the original but a beautiful and expressive drawing at the same time.

Here is my pencil drawing of the young lady, just the face because it is the most essential part. Will do some separate studies for the hands and the overall pose. I do not like drawing as preparatory work because I find the linear nature of most drawing utensils difficult for a study that should focus on large shapes and values. Still it is a good way to explore a subject.

Susanne

stapeliad
05-07-2011, 12:48 PM
Susanne you have a nice drawing here. If you feel pencil is too linear and limiting (and i know exactly what you mean), you can switch to charcoal. Or even brush and ink washes. Or, there are those block- sticks of graphite that are fun to work with.

I will do an initial graphite drawing, and then a full tonal study with pan pastels. Hopefully I can start tonight.

Rolina don't worry, we'll cover everything. I just don't want to move too far ahead. it's still the beginning of May! :D

pcj
05-08-2011, 09:17 AM
Hello Susanne,
I like your drawing, you've captured her
expression exactly. I think the lady is the
most difficult of the choices because of the very
subtle values.
Thankyou for comments about my monk. He is the
easiest of the choices - most of his face is
hidden behind beard and shadow :)
Patricia

ArtyRolina
05-08-2011, 04:25 PM
Susanne, your drawing of the young girl is lovely and soft, it is quite difficult to get those light tones, isn't it?

Patricia, you have managed to capture the monk very well, in contrast to the other portraits, he has a lot of darker tones to work with - quite a lot of drawing there!

I dug out the biggest sketch pad I could find and drew out my Venus onto that (again, with some guide-lines, lol) and here it is with some tones blocked in. I will work on it a bit more tomorrow evening.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-May-2011/959592-carbonelvenusdrawing_copy.jpg

I am really enjoying this!

TinaC
05-08-2011, 05:28 PM
This is a really excellent thread - I have wanted/needed to do a master study for a while now and so will cease lurking and join you if I may. I mainly hang out in the figure forum but I need to develop some decent painting habits and disciplines and reckon this is the place to be. So I'll get drawing and drop back in again soon.:wave:

pcj
05-08-2011, 09:56 PM
Here's another study sketch of the monk. I drew
a grid this time [ the previous sketch grew right
off the paper]
Patricia

pcj
05-09-2011, 06:52 PM
Here's yet another study drawing of the jolly
monk. This time , it's a study of his hand.
Quite tricky - the shadow is rather odd.
Patricia

mij
05-09-2011, 07:06 PM
I presumed that these would be done full size..... obviously not....just practising drawing the subject? I'm not that good at this size. I will have to grid it to get anything like the original to transfer to the canvas. I assume (there's that word again) that is what we are after?
I don't have a board big enough so will have to get a bit of ply tomorrow.
Sorry to be limping along back here - just as well there's no hurry - I couldn't do that if I tried.
jim
PS Jessica I eventually got gimp to posterize for me but twiddling the controls wouldn't get me to a grey scale like you produced.

pcj
05-09-2011, 07:15 PM
Hello ArtyRolina,

I like your Venus - and the way you cropped it.
I think it'll be a better composition than the original
with all those low-flying cupids ! :)

Patricia

pcj
05-09-2011, 10:42 PM
I presumed that these would be done full size..... obviously not....just practising drawing the subject? I'm not that good at this size. .

Hi mij

Yes - drawing studies of our chosen subject for the first 2 weeks in May.
The actual painting starts next week I think.

I hope I'm right about this because I've peppered this forum with my
sketches ! :)

Re: sketch size - my most detailed sketch was done on 18" X 24" paper
and the others were done on 8.5" X 11" paper.

Patricia

stapeliad
05-09-2011, 11:25 PM
sorry all, i'll catch up tomorrow on all the new posts.

mij
05-10-2011, 04:40 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-May-2011/69634-samson_and_delilah_greyed_and_gridded.jpgHmmm I'll put up the image I get when posterized in gimp. It wouldn't go less than 5 grades of grey.

I chose this size of grid on the image as it corresponds to approximately 1" on the canvas. By this size I can tell that Samson and Delilah have a different aspect ratio to that of the canvas (30" x 24") and will be fitted to the largest dimension on their image - the vertical aspect. I will need to pad out some 3" on the width - 1.5" each side. I suppose I could chop some off the bottom of their image? Advice here would be appreciated.
jim
PS Please ignore the numbers on the image (it was late)

Marigold
05-10-2011, 07:09 AM
Hello Jim, I had the same problem with aspect ratio, I had to reduce the height a bit as well as extend the dress towards the side. Hate to change a composition, but for a study it is just not worth it to custom-cut a support. With your Delilah, i would not cut off anything on the top or bottom because both the headdress and the hand are essential to the picture and are close to the margins as it is. I would extend the image on the sides - easy to do on the left with Delilahs dress, a bit more difficult perhaps with Samson's body on the right, but he is in shadow so you can get away with minimal detail.

Hello Patricia: wow, so many drawings, you are really dedicated to this study! :thumbsup: Good job on the hand, you got very close and I know now how difficult that is. I started a drawing of the hands for the young woman yesterday night and thought it would be quick, but no. Hands are a beautiful subject to draw, just as expressive as faces, so maybe it should not come as a surprise that they are not easy to draw.

Hello Rolina: you are doing it correctely by putting in the tones of the larger shapes before drawing any details. It will be interesting to see where your study is going: your crop makes a very modern design and it will be interesting to see this combined with classical painting technique.

Susanne

mij
05-10-2011, 07:52 AM
Hello Jim, I had the same problem with aspect ratio, I had to reduce the height a bit as well as extend the dress towards the side. Hate to change a composition, but for a study it is just not worth it to custom-cut a support.

I'm glad I'm not the only one then <grin>

With your Delilah, <Snipped> I would extend the image on the sides - easy to do on the left with Delilahs dress, a bit more difficult perhaps with Samson's body on the right, but he is in shadow so you can get away with minimal detail.

Yes I can see that'd make a lotta sense.
I've been up and got a bit of board cut to size and stuck my paper on it. Ok for gridding and drawing now.
jim

lovin art
05-10-2011, 03:41 PM
Hey Everyone excuse me for not commenting on you all , I know everyone is working hard and am sure all works will be grand I appreicate your efforts greatly Jess for hosting you and Dave ~ school and other things are limiting me atm.:rolleyes: .. Im going to try and at least make a start on mine Im looking to do some drawing study of her (Venus) as Im not rushing in so my postings will not be much to start with Im looking to do her on butcher paper to start with in charcoal hopefully Ill have something on by the weekend

ArtyRolina
05-10-2011, 04:40 PM
Thanks Patricia, yes I am glad to lose those cupids and much prefer this crop to putting clouds in, it will be interesting, I agree, Susanne to see how it looks in the end.

Good idea, too, Patricia to do some detail studies, I think I might do that with the face. I think you are right that we are doing this for the next two weeks before starting painting, so Jim, no need to panic just yet, nor you Sandra!

Oh, Jim, my study is 18 x 9", so not too large. The painting will be about double that size. Glad you got your board and I look forward to seeing your drawing.

Marigold
05-10-2011, 05:13 PM
This is a really excellent thread - I have wanted/needed to do a master study for a while now and so will cease lurking and join you if I may. I mainly hang out in the figure forum but I need to develop some decent painting habits and disciplines and reckon this is the place to be. So I'll get drawing and drop back in again soon.:wave:
Hello Tina - I forgot to say welcome! It looks like you have some exciting work over in the figure forum, it will be great to have you paint along with us.

Hello Sandra - aren't you glad we have two months :) just look in when you can, I get the impression you are a fast painter so I would not be surprised if you completed your Venus before my own portrait is done.

I attempted to draw just the outlines of the lady's hands. They are still by far not correct, but I got a feeling for what the general gesture is and what the aproximate proportions should be.

Susanne

lovin art
05-10-2011, 05:43 PM
Hey Susanne,:) The hands are coming together , I can see your trying to get the basic envelope here- its looking good just keep measuring and re adjusting where you need to ... Im not that fast Susanne:D , and this one is actually quite big for me, a BIG canvas Im working on for her and also because I am going to paint her skintones directly on so the values will all need to premixed and I want that part to get down right so will take my time ..its the babies Ill hate doing the most , who wouldnt !!:lol:

ArtyRolina
05-11-2011, 03:07 AM
Susanne, the hands are making sense, it is such a good idea to get to understand them before you start the painting. Hopefully, it will help to make the painting that much easier.

Sandra, I am a bit dim (if you hadn't noticed already, lol). Do you mean you are going to do a grisaille and use glazes over the top?

lovin art
05-11-2011, 01:54 PM
Sandra, I am a bit dim (if you hadn't noticed already, lol). Do you mean you are going to do a grisaille and use glazes over the top?

:D You are certainly not Dim Rolina , and dont talk that why doll , ever !!:thumbsup: and No Rolina not a grisaille , I will draw her on directly on the canvas , and then start adding her in direct painting of the flesh tones ...my cavas is like 156x 120 something big~ish

Hey Tina , saw you on here , Great to see you girl, us figures girls together :angel:

ArtyRolina
05-11-2011, 03:23 PM
Ahhh, I see, thanks Sandra, dying to see how your painting progresses and can hardly wait to get started on mine!

TinaC
05-11-2011, 05:07 PM
Not long into this sketch I realised that I dont want to paint Samson at all so I think I am going to do a crop as was originally suggested. I'm really interested in whats been said on this thread about half tones and light and shadow and that will be my main focus, understanding it and doing it in paint.

So here is my rather poor first sketch (too big and done on my lap in front on the TV - bad me) and afterwards I did a few photoshops to throw into the mix. I usually do this when working from photos but to be honest part of me feels like this is cheating, surely we need to train our eyes to do this? However the more dominant other part of me realises I need all the help I can get :D So I will do a square format crop and try and get another more careful drawing done by the weekend.

Patricia, I really love your Monk studies. The shadow on the hand does look a bit strange on the painting but its correct and does work, a case of draw/paint what you see.

Rolina the crop you have chosen for the Venus is a fabulous way of updating the painting, cant wait to see how that turns out.

Susanne thank you for the welcome, there seems to be a huge amount of knowledge on this forum and I look forward to hanging around and taking it all in.

Hi Sandra, yeah figure girls getting oily, what could be better?:lol:

Really looking forward to this one now I am happy with my comp, I also like Deliliah's unusual looks.

lovin art
05-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Thankyou Rolina Im flattered , I cant wait to see how you go too ...:thumbsup:

Tiny Tina:D , your drawings looking good and very good in fact for being done on your knees girlfriend:p but yes great to be on here together , and I like the crop you are going with as I think its much better too , she does have a beautiful face !!

ArtyRolina
05-12-2011, 02:24 AM
Lovely drawing Tina - yes, I too am exciting to be exploring the half tones and trying to understand how that translates to paint - we are in for a lot of fun here!

mij
05-12-2011, 04:20 AM
Wow! The posts here have done well since I've been doing other things.

Patricia, I like your monk. Looks very 'knowledgeable' and distinguished and a very good likeness.

That crop works on Venus Rolina. Looking good.

Ok Jessica. I'm away for this weekend (pet portraits in Leicester) so will get back to this on monday. I have other things that must be done today so might not get any time to do much before.

I like your drawing of the most important aspect of your exercise Marigold. You have got a good likeness.

Hi Tina, we are doing the same one. I was interested in seeing your posterized version of Delilah as it was similar to mine. That was comforting <grin> At least it's something in the right direction. I will be trying to include Samson, he will pad out that side of the canvas so he has a function to perform.
I'll probably get back to it on Monday so maybe peeps here will be way ahead of me. I dont mind, for me it's the journey.
jim

Marigold
05-12-2011, 05:18 PM
Hello everybody,

I love that we have at least one participant for each reference that Jessica presented. This will be great! :clap:

Tina, your drawing is wonderful, it is clean and simplified and you captured the gesture so well. I always find it painful when a great reference like Delilah must be cropped but it is understandable if you do not want to work so large. I think with your crop you may have to adjust the lighting a bit to get a balanced portrait, right now the brightest areas are right on the bottom which I find a bit distracting.

Jessica what is next? :o
Susanne

donbob
05-13-2011, 03:00 PM
hi everybody, great thread learning a lot. Just finished my drawing of the monk, it was quite small so i enlarged it to about 24 by 30 inches on drawing paper. you might be able to see the grids. It did not take long to do [ as you can see] not bothered too much about detail more a tonal study in preparation for splashing some paint on. :clap: keep up the good work everybody, looking forward to seeing everyone improving. donhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-May-2011/108101-GEDC0401.jpg

donbob
05-13-2011, 04:48 PM
]h

NancyMP
05-14-2011, 12:19 AM
We're issuing a weather warning here to watch out for low-flying cherubs!

Marigold
05-14-2011, 06:51 PM
Hello Don :wave:, great to have another Monk on board. Looks like I am the only one so far with the lovely Lady.

Your drawing is a good basis - you used a grid and original size, so are you planning on using this drawing for your transfer to the canvas?

I prepared my drawing on the canvas board today. I used watercolor pencil and a grid directely on the canvas. I will reinforce the lines with oil paint then wash away the grid - does anybody know if the moisture will be harmful to the painting? I think it shouldn'T because by the time I start painting it has evaporated. but I am not sure. So, I am ready to start painting next week!

Susanne

pcj
05-14-2011, 07:46 PM
Hi Susanne,

The watercolour pencil sounds like a good idea.
I was just about to ask what people use to draw
on the canvas [ This will be my first attempt at
painting - I usually do sculpture and figure drawing]

Did you buy your canvas already primed ? If so
are you adding any more gesso to the factory primed
surface ? I bought a stretched and primed canvas
- is it OK to use it without any further priming ?

What size canvas are you using ?

Sorry to ask so many questions !

Patricia

Marigold
05-15-2011, 04:10 AM
Hi Patricia, All store-bought supports have some minimal priming, so yes you could paint on your canvas directely. It is often recommended to add some of your own priming - search the oil painting forum for advice from people who know better than I. I have re-primed my 24x28 canvas Panel with W&N Oil Primer. It is smoother and a bit less absorbant than gesso and I prefer that.

For drawing use anything, just not graphite pencil - it is said to push through the oil paint on occasion. Many people use charcoal, I sometimes use conte or pastell in a lighter color because I don't like the black lines. My preferred transfer method is to grid the image on tracing paper (or other thin paper), then trace the back of the drawing with conte pencil, then push the conte through on the canvas by tracing the front with a hard pencil or pen. Works beautifully. I have used this up to size 16x20, but for this present painting I had no large enough paper. That is why I did the grid directely on the canvas. I used a brown watercolor pencil because I want to be able to remove the grid - sometimes I want some transparency in my painting and then I would regret having a black charcoal grid to deal with. Some people say you could brush off charcoal too, but I have not found this to be true esp. on gesso.

Now it was some bad thinking on my part to do not only the grid in watercolor pencil, but the drawing as well. For wiping off the grid I had to use Q-tips in some areas in order to leave the drawing intact. Not the most efficient method :D , but I don't mind if it is tedious - I enjoy this preparatory work. :)

Susanne

ArtyRolina
05-15-2011, 06:47 AM
Don, your monk is looking good and I agree about this thread, I too am learning a lot!

Nancy, LOL - I have my cherub shield up!

Susanne, the moisture will dry off and your canvas will be ready to go as soon as it is dry, so no worries (and a good idea about the watercolour pencil)!

I use charcoal and only minimal gridding (ie quarters) then once I am satisfied I have got it right, I make a turpsy oil "ink" and paint over my lines. Once that has dried thoroughly I whack the charcoal off vigorously.

Patricia, I always slap on another coat of acrylic gesso (if that is the way the canvas was originally primed - oil primed is different) just to be on the safe side, sometimes another two or three if I think it really needs it or if I want a smoother surface.

I am using a fine canvas on board for mine. I will work a bit more on my drawing today, I noticed it was off in places and I made some corrections so now I can get cracking on the details.

I can hardly wait to get painting!

mij
05-15-2011, 09:50 PM
I haven't done my drawing yet but I have put paper to board <lol>.
My intention is to draw it out using the grid method on drawing paper which is taped to a drawing board. Then when that is completed correctly I will trace it out but will have to use two sheets of smaller paper as I dont have the full size stuff. Then I will use the method described above of pasteling the back of the tracing paper before tranfering to the canvas. I will try to get this done tomorrow afternoon/evening.
jim

stapeliad
05-15-2011, 10:43 PM
Hi All, sorry for going MIA, this past week has been ridiculous. :( but WOW all your drawings are looking great!

pg 5
Rolina I like your crop of venus, it is a great composition!
Tina, :wave: welcome to the thread!
Patricia, I am so glad to see your hand study! You have a really good handle on the monk image. :D

stapeliad
05-15-2011, 10:50 PM
pg 6

I presumed that these would be done full size..... obviously not....

Jim, we are working fairly large, around 24x30. These are not small [paintings and it will be much, much harder to do them mall scale. Work as large as you possibly can. Doing a detail of the composition would work better on a smaller surface.

Aspect ratio...the best thing to do is match the aspect ratio as closely as possible, if this isn't possible take a little off the sides rather than the bottom, so you don't cut off her hands and head.

Hi Sandra~ :wave:

Susanne, your hand study looks great!!!

Tina your drawing of Delilah looks wonderful. I like the crop you chose, it works very well. :)

stapeliad
05-15-2011, 10:54 PM
Pg 7

Hi Donbob, great study there, don't worry about details, just get the "big picture" of shapes, value, and relations.

I prepared my drawing on the canvas board today. I used watercolor pencil and a grid directely on the canvas. I will reinforce the lines with oil paint then wash away the grid - does anybody know if the moisture will be harmful to the painting?

Susanne this sounds fine, just make sure it is dry before putting the oils on.

I use charcoal and only minimal gridding (ie quarters) then once I am satisfied I have got it right, I make a turpsy oil "ink" and paint over my lines. Once that has dried thoroughly I whack the charcoal off vigorously.

Rolina, this is a good approach. :)

stapeliad
05-15-2011, 11:11 PM
Transferring the image to the canvas:

Here is a page from Portrait Painting Atelier by Suzanne Brooker. (http://www.amazon.com/Portrait-Painting-Atelier-Contemporary-Applications/dp/082309927X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305515060&sr=8-1)

Page 132

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2011/53789-ppa1.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-May-2011/53789-ppa2.jpg

I recommend at least a simple grid to transfer these images.
OR- you can use a same-size drawing and make a transfer paper with vine charcoal and tracing paper. Put a coating of vine charcoal on the tracing paper, lay your drawing over it, and gently trace over your lines.


Don't get too detailed!!

Your goal is getting the key shapes and placements down.

After the image is on the canvas:

I recommend an umber layer- just burnt umber (or other brown of your choice). No white paint. Establish your main values. Wipe out areas to make them lighter. Let's all do an umber layer, whether or not you decide to do a grisaille (dead) layer.

****************************
This week:
Transfer your image and do the umber layer.

*****************************

stapeliad
05-15-2011, 11:13 PM
I am running very behind in my own progress, hopefully I'll be able to catch up a little this week. Really, really sorry about this everyone. But you are all doing great. :thumbsup:

stapeliad
05-16-2011, 05:37 AM
Can everyone please let me know whether or not you are glazing or going directly to color? This will affect palette recommendations.

moscatel
05-16-2011, 06:55 AM
I'm still doing this Challenge although I havent posted any pic of Venus yet. I did an umber underlayer, but didnt take a photo of it.:o I will post the grisaille later when there are other grisalles posted.

I'm doing glazing, but is there an other kind of glazing that I'm not aware -> Yes would be helpful to hear about the glazing here. (over grisaille, right?)

Marigold
05-16-2011, 09:53 AM
I'm doing glazing, but is there an other kind of glazing that I'm not aware -> Yes would be helpful to hear about the glazing here. (over grisaille, right?)

Hi moscatel :wave: please we want to see your WIP

Hello Jessica: It's good to have our host back :wave: My question is what technique did Cabanel most likely use? I am with moscatel, any discussion about Cabanel's possible use of underpainting + glazing/scumbling will be helpful.

It seems obvious to me that for those subtle tones and smooth transitions in skin and fabric, there must be some translucent layers involved at least in the final stages. I know I could not achieve those in direct painting. So I will paint in layers for sure, but I am not sure if a full grisaille is the way to go (I will probably do one for the flesh areas only).

Susanne

ArtyRolina
05-16-2011, 12:06 PM
Directly (I think)!

Can everyone please let me know whether or not you are glazing or going directly to color? This will affect palette recommendations.

stapeliad
05-16-2011, 12:24 PM
My question is what technique did Cabanel most likely use? I am with moscatel, any discussion about Cabanel's possible use of underpainting + glazing/scumbling will be helpful.

Well, I have been looking around at this a bit, and have arrived at the most helpful answer of "I don't know."

It could be either one- grisaille/glazes, or layers of color.

Cabanel sided with the French academic painters, who included Ingres and Bouguereau. I know there is Ingres influence in his work because he distorted anatomy in the same way (arms coming out of torsos) and there are a few grisailles on art renewal. However, in the latter part of the 1800s I believe grisaille was less popular but who knows for sure.

In any case, either method would work. if you are nervous about the painting, or newer to painting in general you might consider doing a grisaille. It breaks up the problem solving into separate steps, less to worry about at any given time. Grisaille/glazing is the easier approach.

If you are doing a grisaille: you might want to mix in some green (like chromium oxide). technically this is called a verdaccio but it will work very well under skin tones.

If you are painting in direct color layers: start from block-ins of color shapes. We will talk more about this later, it's a little ahead of where we are.

Post your Umber Layers! :D Next week we will start grisailles/color underpaintings, whichever is applicable to you.

I will talk about pigment choices more at that time; don't want to get too far ahead.


If anyone still wants to join in: You are not too late!

pcj
05-16-2011, 12:29 PM
Can everyone please let me know whether or not you are glazing or going directly to color? This will affect palette recommendations.

I think I'll go directly to colour but would like to glaze some areas.
Never having painted before, I'm not entirely sure :)

Re: Grisaille - Wouldn't a greyish grisaille affect or dull the final
colour even after many glaze layers ?

Patricia

stapeliad
05-16-2011, 12:35 PM
Re: Grisaille - Wouldn't a greyish grisaille affect or dull the final
colour even after many glaze layers ?

Not necessarily. In skin tones, it works really well. Skin is much duller (low chroma) than we think it is. You can get super-vibrant color and depth because of the transparent layering effect.

Color layers are translucent and transparent, but you'll have to deal with value and color at the same time. With a grisaille, you don't have to think about it very much at all.

donbob
05-16-2011, 01:11 PM
:clap: hi everyone this is the stage I am at the moment. Susanne to answer about transfering my drawing to canvas , I used my original drawing 26.7 by 21.3 a ratio of 1.25 cm and gridded my canvas 50 by 40 cm also 1.25 ratio which is the same as the original photo.I used charcoal to transfer it to the canvas and used a diluted reddy brown oil paint to cover the charcoal[got rid of most of the charcoal in case it mixed with the paint].Jessica I am going to put a umber underlay to try and get the correct tonal values before I start putting on colour [ I think is easier concentrating on tones only rather than tones and colour at the same time].Like to makes things easier. good luck everybody get those pictures posted. don.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-May-2011/108101-draw.jpg

stapeliad
05-16-2011, 01:14 PM
donbob your transfer looks great!
Are you painting a grisaille over your umber layer or going straight to color?

ArtyRolina
05-16-2011, 03:00 PM
Nice work, Don!

Marigold
05-16-2011, 03:47 PM
Jessica: your reference to Ingres is interesting. I checked out Ingres at the ARC and found 3 examples of paintings that seemed to be unfinished.
None are painted in grisaille. You can see transparent earth tones in all the shadows, and the lights are brushed over those shadows very thinly in halftones and more opaquely in the lights. The second one is particularly interesting: it looks like he glazed in ockre or raw sienna then worked the whites into or over that glaze. All three look like they are studies and may not represent his general way of working, but I am wondering, esp. since the detail shots of venus posted in this thread look a bit similar to the skin of the woman here.

Has anybody ever tried working that way?

Here are the High Resolution versions, very good detail:

(http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=14712&size=huge)
http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=14712&size=huge
http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=14756&size=huge
http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=9447&size=huge

Susanne

dcorc
05-16-2011, 04:00 PM
Well done, Suzanne.

What you are describing in these is starting the painting by doing an ebauche, a scrub-in in colour.

In 19thC french academic painting, this was the commonest choice, I think. JL David's famous painting of Madame Recamier relining on her chaise-lounge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Madame_R%C3%A9camier_painted_by_Jacques-Louis_David_in_1800.jpg is an unfinished painting left at the ebauche stage.


Dave

Marigold
05-16-2011, 04:08 PM
Dave, as you seem to be somewhat familiar with the process: I am wondering how this translucent veil of white could be achieved, by dry scrubbing with a stiff brush, or by adding some medium to the paint? Also I am wondering how color was added, if it was mixed with the white veil or if it was glazed on top. Like the hint of vermillion (?) on the young man's lips. Looks like this would require a lot of medium, which makes me nervous... :o

Susanne

mij
05-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Can everyone please let me know whether or not you are glazing or going directly to color? This will affect palette recommendations.

I would like to do this as it would have been except of course with todays materials (:wink2:) I thought that this would be with glazing and doing all the layers etc.
I do have that Atellier book of Suzanne Brooker that you mentioned Jessica..
jim

dcorc
05-16-2011, 04:33 PM
I am wondering how this translucent veil of white could be achieved, by dry scrubbing with a stiff brush, or by adding some medium to the paint?

You could slacken the paint off very slightly with very small amounts of medium, but basically its being spread mainly by brush pressure. One useful thing is to apply paint with one brush, and then feather edges and spread it with another, dry, brush. Mediums with a little bit of resin tend to be useful, as they "stay put" better than just using oil. (Damar is very sticky, if you're using that, having a very low percentage of it, say only 1-2%, works better than the 20thC 1:1:1 Oil: Damar: Turps medium often recommended for direct painting)

Also I am wondering how color was added, if it was mixed with the white veil

Paint with the appropriate opaque colour, not just with white - the mixes will generally be white plus a little of other colour(s).

(Avoid doing glazes with lots of medium. Choose transparent pigments, and/or spread the paint very thinly by brush-pressure rather than by dilution.)


Dave

Marigold
05-16-2011, 05:21 PM
Thanks for the sound advice dave. This is all unknown territory to me, but I may give it a try, as I am very curious to experience the difference in painting techniques and see the results. Just from those examples it looks like it may be difficult to get some "solidity" into the figures with just translucent white over translucent underpainting. This will be interesting.

Thanks for posting the ebauche example by David - I knew the painting and believe I saw it in the Louvre years ago: not knowing what I know today I would have never called it "unfinished", it is a remarkable piece of art just the way it is.

Susanne

dcorc
05-17-2011, 04:46 AM
Just from those examples it looks like it may be difficult to get some "solidity" into the figures with just translucent white over translucent underpainting. This will be interesting.

One problem with doing thin pale scumbles of opaque paint is that optical effects can occur due to light-scatter, so that the hue of the thin upper layer is swung a little bluish, especially at the edges. This is more of an issue when using titanium white because of its high opacity, and is one of the ways in which using lead white, or a lead/titanium mix, can be helpful. It can also be useful to make the mix a little more chromatic, or swung a little towards a more orange or scarlet hue to counteract this tendency. Where there are transitions (for example as form turns from light into shadow), "tile" them by mixing a series of steps which each hit the correct hue, value and chroma, rather than trying to blend across a wide area and a wide change of colour and hoping for the best.

These optical effects show up most where there are large differences in value between the undercoat and the upper coat. Try to get the values established correctly as soon as possible, and to modulate value in small steps in successive coats rather than large ones.

It is a good idea to make a series of mixes which step between lights and darks and ensure that these take the correct path though the intermediate colours in the abstract on the palette, before applying to the canvas.

Another factor in building in thin layers of opaque colour is that the colour looks more opaque when wet - so will tend to "settle in" and become more subtle as it dries, if you build light and halftone areas in 2 or 3 layers to build solidity.


Dave

TinaC
05-17-2011, 06:50 AM
There is much on this thread I need to comment on, ask about and re-read but I've been up to my eyes in things lately and right now I am at work so am just posting a couple of quick studies I did at the weekend. I'm buying my canvas at lunchtime and I'll be back as soon as with lots more to say. In the meantime - great stuff on here everyone :thumbsup: .

Oilartnelson
05-17-2011, 12:45 PM
It was about a year ago that I finished this one. Think at the time I was working on moving from impressionist artwork to practicing a more classical academic realistic style.

Not that I got close to it, though I figured Alexandre Cabanel would be an interesting place to try a different style since he hated the impressionists and would not let them show their work in his solon within Paris at the time. He never thought their work would go anywhere or ever sell. Think he may have made a mistake there!:lol:

So, yeah I know there are cherubs missing, but they were fun to paint. So tiny though, I had to use a very small brush even though the canvas was still like I believe 3' X 4'. This is something I intended to do. Unfortunately I didn't get away with a good ocean. You can still see how I am dealing with working on getting away with my style. Whoops!:eek: Better luck next time!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-May-2011/562901-Cabanel1.jpg

lovin art
05-17-2011, 03:28 PM
Tina wonderful studies !! ive been working on my drawing should have something to post shortly !!

Dave Jess , great info happening ... my painting will be ebauche- direct

lovin art
05-17-2011, 08:51 PM
Heres a start to my drawing just starting out with graphite and I am yet to include all those cherubs this will take me ages , but I figure its a start eh !!


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-May-2011/186639-001.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-May-2011/186639-003.JPG

Marigold
05-18-2011, 02:32 AM
Tina, I like you studies - again you seem to have a very good sense for gestures, this is a beautifully sensitive hand study. The face is a good likeness but the right eye seems a bit too far to the right.

Oilartnelson - i find your version very expressive and pleasing, though not necessarily painted in an academic manner (well it kind of is when you compare it to impressionism of course :) ) It is very rich in contrast, and the translucency of layers, which creates a common tonality and ties all shapes together, is missing. Thanks for sharing!

Sandra, this is a very nice drawing of beautiful Venus being born from the foam of the waves.... :thumbsup: I think in this painting the light is kind of tricky - coming from the back/left (the eastern horizon) so basically coming from her feet, which is an unusual angle. I would find it very difficult to paint. I think the breast closer to us needs to sit a bit higher (compare with mouth and noseline)

Susanne

Marigold
05-18-2011, 02:48 AM
Toning the canvas:
This morning, have put a thin layer of raw sienna+black+white over my drawing (the drawing remains visible, I have reinforced the lines in oil and let dry before overpainting). I did this to tone my canvas and get it to the approximate value of my average midtone in the skin. The color is a yellowish grey.

I am not sure if this is necessary, but it is a logical step for me. If my umber layer is to define my shadow areas then the transition to midtones will be easier if I don't have to deal with a bright white canvas.

Susanne

mij
05-18-2011, 03:34 AM
I am hoping to finish my gridded drawing today sometime. I started it yesterday but I am unsure how to carry on.
Am I right in thinking that Delilahs eyes are looking in two different directions?
In garage speak her 'toot' (toe-out-on-turns) needs seeing to. That is her left eye is looking slightly low of the horizontal and her right eye is looking way above the horizontal. If I am correct would I be ok in correcting this?
A 'btw' is that I seem to have not got a likeness ... ah well .... I'd really like to get that .... it would be nice just this once.
jim

ArtyRolina
05-18-2011, 03:38 AM
What an informative and delightful thread this is - I am learning so much! Dave, Jess and Susanne, your discussions about how to approach the painting is so helpful and opening my eyes to a whole new way of painting for me.

Tina and Sandra, your drawings are coming along beautifully, I am very excited to see how things progress from here.

OilartNelson, how cool that you did Venus too - we know who to ask if we get into difficulties now, hehheh!

I worked a little more on my Venus drawing, but I haven't touched her face yet, lol, it looks difficult!

mij
05-18-2011, 08:49 AM
This a first for me in many ways, size, copying of a master painting and working from the net in this fashion .... etc.
Well I've started the drawing on a grid which I will trace when it is completed and is satisfactory. Pencil does need 'auto-adjusting-light-balance' to see it properly but if I do that it looks awfully unlike my work. Sorry about that.
I hope it has worked thus far.
jim






http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-May-2011/69634-samson_and_delilah_started_drawing.jpg

pcj
05-18-2011, 12:25 PM
Susanne, Rolina and Jessica , thankyou for answering
my questions - I've gridded my canvas [24" X 30"] and
started the drawing using Susanne's idea of brown
watercolour pencil and may use charcoal in some areas.

mij and Tina, I like your drawings. Thanks for encouraging
comments on my monk :)

Patricia

Oilartnelson
05-18-2011, 12:40 PM
ArtyRolina,

Well...haha, Uh, I can't say I'd go to me for help on any difficulties. Though, thanks for the thought!:)

I will say constructing the face at that angle was hard though. I mean the majority of the time I am talking to folks, viewing them while I sketch, and have my mind nearly memorized the look of faces in an upright position.

Drawing that on the canvas at that sideways angle made it really difficult! I had to not think of it as a face, just as a form! That made it easier. That and the curvy foot! Don't think I managed that as well either. It was at a strange position too for my mind. All that, and for some reason I always seem to paint people better in around 1/4 less than a life-size way. Not sure why, but I just hate using those tiny brushes!!!!:evil: They will be my blame.

Marigold,...
Yeah, it certainly isn't a realistic classical. You got me on that!:) I was trying for it, but didn't make it anywhere near. You know I am self-taught. Couldn't even go into how much time, canvas, and paint I might not have wasted if I had had a mentor or teacher years ago. Without having a teacher, my original work has stayed fairly raw and a bit wild, though progressively better in it's own way, which I like in that it stands out as different among other works in a gallery.

ArtyRolina
05-18-2011, 01:20 PM
I will say constructing the face at that angle was hard though. I mean the majority of the time I am talking to folks, viewing them while I sketch, and have my mind nearly memorized the look of faces in an upright position.


I think you must have read my mind, I have had difficulties with just that issue in life drawing classes in the past. In this instance, I shall turn the canvas 90 degrees right as well as the photocopy, so her face will be upside down. This is an attempt to try and trick my brain - I hope it works!

Thanks for your help!

Marigold
05-18-2011, 02:09 PM
A 'btw' is that I seem to have not got a likeness ... ah well .... I'd really like to get that .... it would be nice just this once.
jim Hello Jim, you are doing good! Two things for the likeness of the face:
1) the right side of her face is too narrow - to the right of her mouth you should still have 1 eyewidth.
2) her mouth might me minimally to wide - the width of the mouth matches almost exactely the space between the eyes (measured between the whites)

Otherwise don't worry, likeness depends not just on placement but also on light/dark, you will get closer when you do it in paint.

This is my current status - not much yet but I'll post it to keep you company... I'm afraid I'll have to wait 2 days now for my underlayer to dry.

Susanne

ArtyRolina
05-18-2011, 02:24 PM
Jim,this is a great drawing, I think you are right about the eyes, you know!

This a first for me in many ways, size, copying of a master painting and working from the net in this fashion .... etc.
Well I've started the drawing on a grid which I will trace when it is completed and is satisfactory. Pencil does need 'auto-adjusting-light-balance' to see it properly but if I do that it looks awfully unlike my work. Sorry about that.
I hope it has worked thus far.
jim






http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-May-2011/69634-samson_and_delilah_started_drawing.jpg

mij
05-18-2011, 04:04 PM
Suzanne, thanks for that input. I will check my measurements again. If the mouth is correct then the eyes must be too close together :) . The later it gets here the more difficults it is for my eyes to focus - especially when typing. Having had a visit to the opticians last thursday I now have four pairs of glasses. There isn't enough room to rest them all....

Rolina, thank you for tendering possible agreement on my finding about the eyes. Whether the lass had eyes like that I don't know and unless he used her in other paintings we'll not find out either. Perhaps he painted her like that and nobody noticed. I only picked up on this because I enlarged the cropped image to get facial features correct.:confused:
Anyway, I'll continue tomorrow after lunch.
jim

ArtyRolina
05-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Sorry, Susanne, I nearly forgot to comment on your canvas drawing. I like the canvas toning as well as the drawn image, we still have plenty of time before we start off with the painting officially, anyway!


This is my current status - not much yet but I'll post it to keep you company... I'm afraid I'll have to wait 2 days now for my underlayer to dry.

Susanne

mij
05-19-2011, 05:13 AM
Suzanne, sorry but I also omitted to complement you on the progress you have made. You are already a stage ahead of me here. Perhaps I should have chosen that lady as she does not wear any head adornments <lol> Yes ok on having to wait a couple of days for the first toning to dry.
jim

donbob
05-19-2011, 06:53 AM
hi jessica going to do a grisaille painting,using black and white with a touch of green here and there.I had a close look at the picture and the detail around the face seems a bit unclear,[is there any other clearer pictures] If not:clap: I will just have to do my best. don

pcj
05-19-2011, 10:39 AM
hi jessica going to do a grisaille painting,using black and white with a touch of green here and there.I had a close look at the picture and the detail around the face seems a bit unclear,[is there any other clearer pictures] If not:clap: I will just have to do my best. don


Hello Don,

This link has a more detailed image in a high resolution version
but the colour is completely different [ bluer ].

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alexandre_Cabanel_-_The_Roman_Monk.jpeg

Patricia

donbob
05-19-2011, 12:28 PM
thanks for that Jessica colour is just fine,much better picture,keep up the good work. don:clap:

NancyMP
05-20-2011, 12:05 AM
Suzanne and Rolina, both of your starts look superb! If I didn't have so much to do, I would be so tempted to join in!

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 10:23 AM
Hi everyone, sorry again to have been absent from WC. A lot of unexpected stressful things, both personally and at work, have been taking all of my time, focus, and energy. I have been giving this a lot of thought, and though it's a little strange, I don't think I'll be producing any art for my own project! :(

I will continue to host the thread, offer support, information, critique, next steps, etc, but regrettably I cannot join in at this time. This was never my intention but I am on overload right now and something needs to give. I hope you all understand and can forgive me.

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 10:32 AM
Dave- thank you so much for posting this info. Great stuff.
Tina- your drawings are gorgeous. You have such delicacy in your work.
Oilartnelson :D thanks for posting your rendition of Venus! :clap:
Sandycat, your drawing is luscious, looking great, good job on not going too dark on the body.

What an informative and delightful thread this is - I am learning so much! Dave, Jess and Susanne, your discussions about how to approach the painting is so helpful and opening my eyes to a whole new way of painting for me.

Wow Rolina, thank you so much for saying this! :heart: I am so happy it's helpful to you.

Susanne, thank you for all your comments and help to everyone. :)

Jim,your drawing is coming along very well. A suggestion to you- use a larger grid. Those tiny squares look a little tedious and you might end up losing your sense of the image as a whole. Take a look at the example grid on the previous page. Remember, the grid is just for placement. It isn't a technical drawing.

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 10:34 AM
Susanne, your canvas is looking wonderful. Your transfer is exactly the right amount of detail, the toning undercoat is lovely, and I'd say you are certainly ready to progress to the umber layer.

Do you have a palette in mind or would you like suggestions?

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 10:37 AM
Remember everyone, there is no rush!

After transferring your image to the canvas,
1) do your umber layer with burnt umber only (wipe out paint for your lights, no white paint yet)
2) progress to the color block-in or grisaille, whichever you are doing.

I will post some palette recommendations shortly for each painting, if you have a palette in mind already please post it if you need or want assistance. :)

pcj
05-20-2011, 01:39 PM
Hello Everyone,
I've almost finished the initial drawing on canvas.
Used brown watercolour pencil on 24" X 30" canvas.
The smudges mark the spots where I learned that you
have to be quick when removing errors with a damp rag :)

He looks a bit like Santa Claus right now :)

Patricia

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 01:56 PM
Hi Patricia, smudges are fine lol this is looking great! The important thing is the placement. Looks like you are also ready for the umber layer. :thumbsup:

Marigold
05-20-2011, 02:50 PM
Hi everyone, sorry again to have been absent from WC. A lot of unexpected stressful things, both personally and at work, have been taking all of my time, focus, and energy. I have been giving this a lot of thought, and though it's a little strange, I don't think I'll be producing any art for my own project! :(
Jessica, so sorry to hear you have to deal with so much stress right now! It is probably a good decision not to start the painting in those circumstances but it must be hard to miss out on your hand-picked favorites. I guess the rest of us will have to do our best then to make you proud! I think we have a very motivated and supportive group, I am sure everyone will pitch in to help each other out. Thanks for still looking in to give instructions for the next step. :wave:

Patricia: sorry if you got in trouble with the watercolor pencil!:D I was able to erase my grid rather well with water but some stains have remained as well - but they will be easily covered. I would have been more worried about the gridlines. You have a nice clear drawing. I love your setup with the detail pictures for face and hand on the side, good idea.

I will post some palette recommendations shortly for each painting, if you have a palette in mind already please post it if you need or want assistance. :) Palette will be experimental as always :) Going by the dress, I think my staples will be:
cobalt blue,
venetian red,
naples yellow
burnt & raw sienna.

But I think I could use some advice for the skin: will I need a cooler red (like alizarin crimson)?

Doing the underpainting I found that my raw sienna has very little tinting strength, much less that my yellow ochre. Is that normal for that pigment? I would prefer raw sienna to yellow ochre for this painting because it is transparent.

Susanne

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 03:21 PM
Susanne, I think you might be better off with French Ultramarine than cobalt. (but that is only my opinion, if you prefer cobalt use it) It is darker and more transparent. Yes, addition of either Alizarin OR a permanent rose (quinacridone) would be a good idea for skin tones.

Naples yellow and venetian red are good choices, a flake white would also be a good addition.

lovin art
05-20-2011, 03:37 PM
I hope you all understand and can forgive me.


Totally understand as you know and forgiven in a heartbeat , you know i luv ya Jessicat .....

moscatel
05-20-2011, 04:11 PM
Here's my Venus swinging on the grisaille waves. :) I didn't take photos from the earlier stages because I thought I wouldn't need them. Now I regret.:crying:

I don't know if this grisaille Venus is any good because i haven't painted nudes before. I don't have any clue what so ever about the colors to the following color layers, just have to start mixing. :D Neither have i read anywhere what colors there are for a figure. Maybe i can use same colors as there are for faces. But i'm not sure, i'm in no rush... . The hair is still umber under layer. I mixed the grey by using cobolt blue (i don't know why i did that, i just wasn't thinking i guess) and my Venus almost turned blue. When i first mixed the grey color it became green so instead of throwing it away I put it to the sea hoping it won't cause me trouble when adding color layers over.

This is a little bit smaller than was recommended. Lately I've been doing small paintings by using small brushes. Plan to switch to bigger canvases soon.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-May-2011/50779-venus_wip_wc.jpg

ArtyRolina
05-20-2011, 04:16 PM
Patricia, your drawing looks great, I always get an excited feeling in my tummy when I have a drawing on canvas and get that feeling when I look at yours.

Jessica, what a shame you are too overloaded at the moment to take part, but I am grateful to you for the effort you have put in to get us started. Maybe you will have the chance to do one at a later stage. Which one had you fancied doing, if you could have found the time?

As Susanne says, it is a supportive group and I think this project is going to be a huge succes, thanks in no small part to the preparation you have made, plus the enthusiastic participation. I can hardly wait to get started!

I shall use zinc white, titanium white, yellow ochre, naples yellow, venetian red, alizarin crimson and french ultramarine. What other colours may I need for Venus?

moscatel
05-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Rolina, will you be doing the cherubs?

Sandra, you are doing the cherubs! Will be beautiful! I wasn't sure if i could paint any figure at all for that reason i left 'em out. I thought better fight with one figure than with several additive child figures. I was thinking that i could add the cherubs later if everything works out ok, but now i realize i don't have any space for them.

Jessica, would be great to see later some painting of yours too, hopefully you find some time later.

Susanne, thanks for posting and keeping the thread up. :thumbsup:

lovin art
05-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Moscatel she looks great , with a Grisaille I would tend not to go to dark as your going to be glazing colours on top of that - Im presuming here? ... with mine I will not be doing an underlayer but straight tones so more chance of me stuffing them up,:D her tones are very soft and the variation in them very transitional -subtle.....

Yes the Putti (cherubs) are abit demanding , but well I will curse the little ones along the way;) ... thankyou for the lovely words , and yours will be great your doing exceptionally well for someone whos never painted the figure before ..but I do love your land scapes just as much !!:D :thumbsup:






Here's my Venus swinging on the grisaille waves. :) I didn't take photos from the earlier stages because I thought I wouldn't need them. Now I regret.:crying:

I don't know if this grisaille Venus is any good because i haven't painted nudes before. I don't have any clue what so ever about the colors to the following color layers, just have to start mixing. :D Neither have i read anywhere what colors there are for a figure. Maybe i can use same colors as there are for faces. But i'm not sure, i'm in no rush... . The hair is still umber under layer. I mixed the grey by using cobolt blue (i don't know why i did that, i just wasn't thinking i guess) and my Venus almost turned blue. When i first mixed the grey color it became green so instead of throwing it away I put it to the sea hoping it won't cause me trouble when adding color layers over.

This is a little bit smaller than was recommended. Lately I've been doing small paintings by using small brushes. Plan to switch to bigger canvases soon.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-May-2011/50779-venus_wip_wc.jpg

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 04:46 PM
Sandycat :heart: thank you so much.
Moscatel nice work so far. The grisaille might be a little dark, be careful. You might want to lighten it a little before going into the glazing. When you apply color, it will get darker. It won't take very much tweaking to make the values lighter in your grisaille.

Venus Glazing Palette:
There are a few ways you can go about the glazing- either applying transparent colors already mixed, or optical glazing.

I did a Bouguereau grisaille/glaze last year sometime, and never mixed any colors on the palette...I just layered transparent pigments over each other and it worked really well. I messed up a little because I had so much fun I did too many layers, especially if you are using high quality paint you need fewer than you might think.

I am a huge fan of limited palettes, (though you wouldn't know it from my paint collection :o) and you really don't need a lot of colors to do any of these paintings.

Optical Mixing:
Pernament Rose
Alizarin Crimson
Transparent Yellow (WN makes a great one, but it is expensive- you could also use a lemon yellow, apply VERY thinly) OR WN Indian Yellow if you have it.
Flake white (or transparent white of your choice)
French Ultramarine
Transparent Brown Oxide OR Burnt Umber

If you don't want to optical mix, I highly recommend Transparent Red Oxide as a base, you'll need to adjust it as necessary and perhaps layer with your transparent white. If you don't have TRO just use the palette i listed above, or something similar. Try and stay with transparent pigments, though you can glaze with just about anything.

Thinly apply your medium to your surface, then brush in the pigment, then wipe it off. It's that easy. You just want to lightly stain the painting surface. Keep it as smooth as possible. You may need less layers than you think.

I shall use zinc white, titanium white, yellow ochre, naples yellow, venetian red, alizarin crimson and french ultramarine. What other colours may I need for Venus?

Rolina you aren't glazing right? You do not need both Naples Yellow and yellow ochre. They are both very similar. The rest of your palette looks great, it will work well. You could substitute Transparent Red Oxide for the Venetian red, it is easier to work with. V Red is so strong and opaque. But it will work. (Susanne that goes for your palette too)

Zinc/Titanium
Naples OR yellow ochre
Alizariin
Venetian Red OR Transparent Red Oxide
French Ultramarine

you might want to add burnt umber as well.

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 04:48 PM
Which one had you fancied doing, if you could have found the time?

Sandra and I originally were going to do the Venus together, which is why Cabanel is our master this month. Then I switched over to the monk because i like the sky. But now I am just going to host the thread.

ArtyRolina
05-20-2011, 04:48 PM
Hi Moscatel, your Venus is looking good, and I think you are very sensible for leaving out the cherubs, although I am full of admiration for Sandra for including them. I am going to crop mine to just include her upper torso and avoid the whole cherub issue! What size is your piece?

ArtyRolina
05-20-2011, 04:52 PM
Thanks Jessica, I think I do prefer the sound of the transparent red oxide, that will help make the flesh glow, and oh yes, the burnt umber would certainly be useful for the dark hair, I think.

I hope you can get a chance to paint a Venus or the monk (I quite like him too) one day.

moscatel
05-20-2011, 04:52 PM
..with a Grisaille I would tend not to go to dark as your going to be glazing colours on top of that.. Sandra I'm messing around quite a bit here .. I'm not even sure how should I be doing the glazing in this case. I thought I could add next some color layers (not too thick with color) and then in the end glazing .. but by doing that what is the use with the previous stages! :o As you see I don't really know how to do this but ... but we're learning here. One thing is sure umber under layer followed by grisaille helps me to figure out the color layers.

If I go strait to the color in the beginning I wouldn't be able to do anything I think. :confused:
Rolina, it's about 11x22" (27x55 cm).

stapeliad
05-20-2011, 04:57 PM
Moscatel read my post, I put in a bit on applying glazes. With your grisaille you can glaze directly over it.

moscatel
05-20-2011, 05:01 PM
Jessica, thanks I will read it again. Now its late on this side of the globe and we'll have an early wake up (5:00 am) for a plein air tomorrow.
Until the next ... stage/post

lovin art
05-20-2011, 05:05 PM
[QUOTE]As you see I don't really know how to do this but ..



Moscate ~Dont Panic your doing fine :thumbsup: , I mean because your doing a grisaille, theres not much sense in not glazing her ... Jess has above kindly written out a suggestion of colours and how to go about this .... its quite easy , I have faith in you ..you will do fine with it , because mine is straight application of layers I wont be using glazing maybe only at the end ...:D

Marigold
05-21-2011, 01:44 AM
Moscatel nice work so far. The grisaille might be a little dark, be careful. You might want to lighten it a little before going into the glazing. When you apply color, it will get darker. It won't take very much tweaking to make the values lighter in your grisaille. Your Venus looks wonderful. I agree with Jessica, you should make sure your lights are light enough.

The lightest lights to my eye are on planes that face roughly 10 o'clock - the ribcage and the breasts. I have highlighted in yellow where I see the strongest light, I would paint them almost white. I have marked in orange roughly the areas where I see the second strongest light. Those shapes have a nice flow to them (now I want to paint her :)) I think you have much of it right, but it may be worth checking: I see areas on the breasts for examples (light) that are no lighter than areas on the lower thigh (shadow). You can always darken shadows with glazes - it is the lights that need to be right in shape and value before you start glazing.

I hope you don't mind. Have a good day plain air painting :wave:
Susanne

stapeliad
05-21-2011, 09:23 AM
Susanne, this is helpful info :), but I was referring to the darks in Moscatel's grisaille- they should be lighter than they will be in the final piece. Bring your darkest dark down by about 2 levels in the grisaille. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

pcj
05-21-2011, 11:44 AM
Rolina
Thankyou.
I'm getting that same feeling. :) It's exciting to see it start
to take shape - and so - the 'journey' begins !
I can't wait to start painting !

Susanne
Thankyou for comments and thanks for watercolour pencil idea :)
I think that it's better than charcoal for drawing on the canvas.

It stays clean and doesn't smudge or wipe off
[unlike charcoal !] if you happen to brush against
it while drawing and it's easy to remove with a damp
rag. [ I discovered that a couple of quick swipes
with the damp rag will remove it. I got the smudges
when I was dabbing at it too slowly which caused it to stain.]

I haven't quite finished the drawing so haven't removed
the grid lines yet but will when I no longer need them.

Patricia

Marigold
05-21-2011, 01:30 PM
Jessica, I sorry I didn't mean to cause any confusion. Thanks for your palette suggestions, I think I'll take the transparent red oxide on board.

It's exciting to see it start to take shape - and so - the 'journey' begins ! Yes, isn't this fun? Can't wait to see how everybody's paintings develop.
--------------------------------------------
Here is my umber layer. I understand its purpose is mainly to define shapes and block shadows, so I used relatively large brushes. I am glad I had reinforced my drawing with paint before, so now I could brush in the shapes generously without losing my drawing, it is still visible. I tried to keep all edges soft, including the outer edge of the figure where it will transition into the dark background.

The color is raw umber. I tried to use as little thinner as possible. The whole thing did not feel like creating a real paint layer, rather like massaging some pigment into the canvas. I have done this before and I find it strange each time.

Susanne

donbob
05-21-2011, 04:46 PM
hi patricia thanks for that high resolution picture. I like your picture of the monk. I started the grisaille but I used too much medium.lost a bit of confidence, so I concentrated on the the head using thicker paint, looked at the picture upside down, far away, managed to get it right,if it does not look right stop.I love watching every ones attempts. susanne, patricia sandra mosctel and rolina and everyone else, keep up the good work, don

stapeliad
05-23-2011, 03:47 PM
Susanne, you didn't cause confusion, I love how helpful you have been. Your umber layer is looking gorgeous! :clap:

donbob, don't stop if you need some help please post your progress. Don't worry about the medium. Remember we are here to learn, there is nothing to lose, you can only gain from the experience. :)

Patricia, watercolor pencil is good, so is pastel pencil. :)

sidbledsoe
05-23-2011, 04:13 PM
That looks really good Suzanne.

Marigold
05-23-2011, 05:06 PM
Jessica and Sid, thank you so much! :) I am really growing fond of this painting. Lovely Lady and so interesting to paint, a challenge for sure!

I am posting another progress, just because I thought it was important to have the dark background before anything else gets done, so I will be able to judge values correctely. It looks very different!

Is it ready for the color underlayer, or does anyone see anything that needs adjusting?

Don, too much thinner? Do you mix the medium with the paint, or do you just dip your brush? I add medium to the paint on the palette, with the palette knife, so usually I would notice that a color is too thin before I put it on the canvas - then I just have to discard the soupy paint and mix another batch.

How is everyone else coming along?

Susanne

ArtyRolina
05-23-2011, 05:42 PM
Ooooh, Susanne she is looking great - yeah I think you are ready for your colour. I only just finished my drawing last night and now I have to finish transfering to canvas tomorrow night, maybe a turpsy drawing and then the fun will begin for me too!

pcj
05-23-2011, 06:42 PM
Hi Susanne, I really like that background.

Tonight, I have a couple of errors to fix on the monk
then I can reinforce the lines with paint and
do the umber layer tomorrow.

Patricia

moscatel
05-23-2011, 06:45 PM
Susanne, you have painted really beautifully the Lady! Very fine umber layer.

stapeliad
05-23-2011, 06:58 PM
Susanne that was a good decision to put the dark of the background in, it helps to see it better as a whole. She is really looking fabulous.

lovin art
05-23-2011, 07:06 PM
Susanne, your off to a grand start with yours shes looking beautiful she looks ready for color to me, go for it !! .... Im off to school so not much action on mine of late

donbob
05-24-2011, 10:52 AM
hi everbody it looks as if everones doing fine.Just about finished the grasaille, but i think i may have to lighten it overall should not be a problem as i have the values in now,also will make it more thicker, keep you all posted. don

luicre
05-24-2011, 11:28 AM
Good morning artists!

I come here every single day to enjoy, learn something and watch the progress. A lurker, that`s who I am.

I am kind of impatient... when are we going to see the next installements?

Happy painting!!!


Saludos

Luicre

lovin art
05-24-2011, 03:34 PM
A lurker, that`s who I am.

Hia Luicre :D , lurkers arent allowed start drawing girfriendl!!!:lol: well can only speck for myself atm not much , mite get some drawing done today I hope :crossfingers:

its fun watching everyones work come to life but isnt it !:)

luicre
05-24-2011, 05:59 PM
Hia Luicre :D , lurkers arent allowed start drawing girfriendl!!!:lol: well can only speck for myself atm not much , mite get some drawing done today I hope :crossfingers:

its fun watching everyones work come to life but isnt it !:)

Hi, Sandra. I guess I can`t join because I don`t work with oils....But its is a great thing to have the chance of watching and learning from all of you

Saludos

Luicre

lovin art
05-24-2011, 06:55 PM
Hi, Sandra. I guess I can`t join because I don`t work with oils

Lu , you can still draw her ....get those pencils out chica;)

saintlukesguild
05-24-2011, 08:38 PM
Jessica and Sid, thank you so much! :) I am really growing fond of this painting. Lovely Lady and so interesting to paint, a challenge for sure!

I am posting another progress, just because I thought it was important to have the dark background before anything else gets done, so I will be able to judge values correctely. It looks very different!

Is it ready for the color underlayer, or does anyone see anything that needs adjusting?

Susanne

Very good progress. The fabric of her skirt is already shimmering and crackling just with minimal monochrome only. I think it is ready for undercolors. I see one need for adjustment. Her right ear is well placed, but her left ear has sagged a little below the right ear line. I am also curious to see how you develop that right chair post finial. You don't provide yourself much information to follow. If you have decided to wing it when it comes to that, I applaud your gutsy move. :clap:

wagram
05-25-2011, 02:41 AM
I'm not lurking, just dropping in to say the work done this month looks great. I'm still trying to get the time to finish the Waterhouse from earlier in the year.

Nice to see Cabanel did some work I actually like.
Cheers
Neil

zoi_p
05-25-2011, 02:11 PM
Wait for me! :D
Some silly question: when were scissors invented? Did she cut his hair with a knife? :o
Did she regret it afterwards?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-May-2011/219093-DSCN1401_01.JPG

zoi_p
05-26-2011, 10:27 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-May-2011/219093-DSCN1402_01.JPG
Dedicated to my hairdresser, who was supposed to cut 1 inch - NOT 3!

donbob
05-26-2011, 01:36 PM
:clap: hi everybody, keep sending your work in, looking forward to seeing all your progress.This is where I am at now,finishing off the first layer of grisaille,[need to lighten it and more thicker paint,the photo makes it lighter than it is]donhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-May-2011/108101-GEDC0405.jpg

Festina lente
05-26-2011, 03:04 PM
Hi everybody
Very interested in this great job done here. But as I'm new and lacking a lot
of knowledge. How do you transfer from a drawing to the canvas ? I would love to take part here and paint the beautiful lady in the dress but the original picture is so big. Can I try to draw and paint her on paper ?
Best regards,
Snjolaug

pcj
05-26-2011, 04:11 PM
[QUOTE=zoi_p
Dedicated to my hairdresser, who was supposed to cut 1 inch - NOT 3![/QUOTE]

:lol: :D

I have the same problem with my hairdresser !

Your drawing is looking very good. What size is it ?

Patricia

moscatel
05-26-2011, 04:39 PM
How do you transfer from a drawing to the canvas ? I'm using similar method as used in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjU0ORJxSKM
(exept i'm using soft pastels on the back of the drawing)

Marigold
05-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Hello Rolina, Patricia and Sirkka, thanks for your encouraging comments my friends! Can't wait for the weekend when I hope you will find time to post your next steps?

Luicre and Neil, thanks for following along!

Luke, thanks for looking in , I will address the areas that you have pointed out after I solve my more pressing problem of how in the world to get started on those colors. :)

Festina - how are things in Iceland? Are you covered in ashes or what? Last year around this time, I was planning a visit to Raykjavik. Then your other volcano with the unpronouncable name erupted, and I had to cancel my plans. I went to an oil painting workshop instead, and here I am!

Zoi, welcome! You have a nice drawing of Delilah, beautiful job at the headdress! Be careful to separate light and shadow areas as Jessica described in the first pages of this thread. Both eyes are in the shadow, which means the whotes of her eyes are darker than her right cheek and the back of her nose.

Don, I like your grisaille of the monk very much, it looks flawless! You rendered every detail so faithfully. The folds in the elbow of the right arm might slightly overmodeled/too light as they should be part of the shadow.

Susanne

pcj
05-26-2011, 09:55 PM
Hi Susanne,

I've finished drawing the monk on the canvas. The
outline of the shadow around the eye got a bit messy
but is in the right place. I haven't done the background
yet.
Next step is to reinforce the lines with paint - am going
to do that tonight - I can't wait !:)

Patricia

pcj
05-27-2011, 01:47 AM
Just finished reinforcing the lines with paint.
Patricia

donbob
05-27-2011, 07:00 AM
:clap: thanks for your imput susanne, have not looked at the original picture yet as I am wwiting this, but I think you are right,still to put another layer on.Everone feel free to critique my painting,I welcome all points of view especially those talented artists we have in this exercise. don

Festina lente
05-28-2011, 06:32 AM
Festina - how are things in Iceland? Are you covered in ashes or what? Last year around this time, I was planning a visit to Raykjavik. Then your other volcano with the unpronouncable name erupted, and I had to cancel my plans. I went to an oil painting workshop instead, and here I am!

Good morning
I'm fine thank you. I live in Reykjavik and we had some ashes falling here some days ago but today everything is OK. No ashes and yesterday it rained and cleared the ashes away. But near the volcano things are not good. People living in the small village called Kirkjubæjarklaustur had to move away some of them because they had small children that couldn't go outside. The ashes were dropping heavily. Everything was grey and horrible. The visibility was only around one meter some days. Birds stopped singing and some sheep were killed. Now the volcano has almost ended so there's a lot of work ahead to clean up the ashes. Well, we live in this country and have to accept what it offers us. Must respect nature!

I have started to draw the lovely lady and I will be looking at the youtupe tape to see how to transfer over to the canvas. Love to paint people so this is challenging.
I hope I can post my picture tomorrow. Don't have my camera with me.
Best regards from Iceland
Snjolaug

TinaC
05-29-2011, 04:57 AM
Well apologies for being such a lousy contributor to this excellent thread. Normally I am completely obsessive when I get my teeth into a project and you cant keep me away but real life has been far too intense recently including transitioning to a new computer. I am hoping the bank holiday on Monday and a week off work soon will redress the balance.

So here is where I am up to so far. I have started with a burnt sienna underpainting but already I am looking with envy at the grisaille paintings on this thread. Or are they one and the same, I am confused about technique labels already? Anyway I use an constant apply and edit approach, put paint on, move a bit, wipe away - not sure you do that with opaque paints. I lost a bit of the white with the canvas staining so her shoulder is too dark already but I'll sort that later. So I guess I am painting in layers although I havent really got into glazes before (i.e. with mediums) but I would like to stretch myself a bit with this one.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-May-2011/117326-P1030074_1_1.JPG

The main danger area I have noticed with this so far is that I am likely to inadvertently straighten things up and lose the subtle tilts of the pose. I dont know if everyone does that or just me but already I am not sure I havent misplaced the nose and mouth so will watch out for that. Will be painting today and have recently bought myself some new paints. I use W&N water miscible oils and have just invested in some Cobra's so will see how they compare. At this stage I have no idea what the palette will be but the canvas is 20" x 20".

Going to go visit your posts now.:wave:

TinaC
05-29-2011, 05:09 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-May-2011/219093-DSCN1402_01.JPG
Dedicated to my hairdresser, who was supposed to cut 1 inch - NOT 3!

Nice work on the eyes especially zoi. Good question about the scissors - I hope your 2" grows back quickly :).

TinaC
05-29-2011, 05:18 AM
Don and Pat, your Monks methods are so different but equally impressive, looking forward to seeing these progress.

Suzanne your lady is awesome - the reason for my grizaille envy. Good point about putting the dark background in to judge the values correctly I will do that next on my Delilah.

Moscatel your Venus is coming on beautifully and I am learning from the great advice you are getting too.

TinaC
05-29-2011, 05:23 AM
Heres a start to my drawing just starting out with graphite and I am yet to include all those cherubs this will take me ages , but I figure its a start eh !!


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-May-2011/186639-001.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-May-2011/186639-003.JPG
Sandra this is a wonderful drawing, in fact its a graphite painting, full of atmosphere and mood. Cant wait to see what you do in oil. Bravo:clap:

TinaC
05-29-2011, 05:42 AM
Hello everybody,


Tina, your drawing is wonderful, it is clean and simplified and you captured the gesture so well. I always find it painful when a great reference like Delilah must be cropped but it is understandable if you do not want to work so large. I think with your crop you may have to adjust the lighting a bit to get a balanced portrait, right now the brightest areas are right on the bottom which I find a bit distracting.


Susanne

Susanne I am sorry to cause you pain with my cropping :evil: and you make a good point about the lighting. I have thought about it and looking at the original have to wonder how unusual the composition is. The subjects are mostly in shadow, the brightest part of the painting is her white arm diagonally crossing the canvas. So if I were telling a story about two people would I do that? Not in a million years but it works, takes the eye around the canvas. Clever stuff.

mij
05-29-2011, 10:04 AM
So here is where I am up to so far. I have started with a burnt sienna underpainting but already I am looking with envy at the grisaille paintings on this thread. Or are they one and the same, I am confused about technique labels already?
I'm also confused about the terminology, never mind. I usually muddle through somehow.

Life has caught up with me as well but now hopefully back to some prep/painting. Like you I tend to lurk/read/procrsastinate.

I'm glad you have returned and with the 'under-painting' in burnt umber. It looks good and you have a likeness there that I recognise quite readily as Alexandre's Delilah.

All others seem to be going ahead very well although I haven't yet played catch-up on reading all the posts.
jim
PS Also using wmo (W&N).

zoi_p
05-29-2011, 12:01 PM
Thank you all :) .
As you can see, the watercolors made her look 10 years older. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-May-2011/219093-DSCN1405_01.JPG
I don't care, but SHE does. Having lost much of her youth, she is considering a change of career :D .

pcj
05-29-2011, 03:03 PM
Hello Everyone,

Tina. I like your underpainting very much. I think you have captured
the complex tilt of the head [- not easy since it's tilted upwards,
sideways and rotated to her left all at the same time ! ]
In the original, Cabanel seems to have painted the bottom lip
rather oddly - on the left side [her left side] - it doesn't look
quite correct, anatomically speaking.

I've started to draw the background on my monk. This is another
first for me since I usually draw the figure only . [ for my
sculpture ]
I'm using Winsor and Newton Griffin Oil Alkyds - is anyone else
using these ?

I'm still pondering on how to proceed after the drawing on
canvas is finished. I think I'll do a fairly loose underpainting - not
a full grisaille. I'll probably need to be able to make corrections
all the way through since this is my first painting.

Patricia

TinaC
05-29-2011, 04:56 PM
Remember everyone, there is no rush!

After transferring your image to the canvas,
1) do your umber layer with burnt umber only (wipe out paint for your lights, no white paint yet)
2) progress to the color block-in or grisaille, whichever you are doing.

I will post some palette recommendations shortly for each painting, if you have a palette in mind already please post it if you need or want assistance. :)
I think I should have done a bit more careful reading before diving in with my painted layer, but maybe my umber layer can be a sienna layer and I can do either a grisaille or a colour block in now? Perhaps to do a master study you need some master time and master patience :lol: So I have had to add some white to correct my drawing errors as the burnt sienna had dried, the hand is still a bit misplaced but I cant face moving that so will live with it. Not sure whether to do a grisaille or dive in with colour now, or maybe just a grisaille of the flesh.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-May-2011/117326-P1030134_1_1.JPG

Jim I read your comments about her eyes looking in different directions. The more I stare at the face the more questions I have have about it. I'm going to get a real person to copy the pose for me and see if I cant understand it a bit better. Occasionally I have thought I have seen wonky eyes in an artists work and never really been sure if its me or them.

Patricia thanks for your thoughts about my underpainting and also the original - as a sculptress your knowledge of anatomy must be pretty sound. It seems to me the mouth is face on whilst everything else is to the side. Still I was drawn to this one because of her face and am going to stay as close as possible to the painting whether its right or wrong.

Zoi watercolours are a total mystery to me, are you doing an oil as well?

Raring to go on this now and looking forward to seeing everyone else's progress.

zoi_p
05-30-2011, 05:18 AM
Tina, I think I can use the oil colors over the watercolors.
I will make it an oily black and white. And then I will add color...

zoi_p
05-30-2011, 09:59 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-May-2011/219093-DSCN1416_01.JPG

Festina lente
05-30-2011, 05:29 PM
Hi everybody
Here is my trial. I'm probably breaking every rule there is. I decided not to use canvas as I don't have any at hand for now. I want to practice on paper for now. What shall one do with all these paintings on canvases ? I have many that I need to paint over and try something else etc. So paper for now. The picture is also not very big and then probably not good.
But I'm looking at this as a learning process.
:D

Festina lente
05-30-2011, 05:31 PM
Hi again
Here it is :) Had some problem, but hopefully I'll succeed now.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-May-2011/231626-mala_konu.JPG

zoi_p
05-31-2011, 09:23 AM
Tina, you managed to transfer that movement of the head- I love your underpainting. I tried to tilt her head, but I couldn't do it. I think that should require some shortening of the nose and enlargement of the chin and I am reluctant to make such a change.
But the largest problem is that I don't like her face, I find it unattractive. It wasn't appealing in the original either, so initially I tried to make her younger and prettier. But still I did not like her.
Anyway, this is my progress. I worked on her arm yesterday in the night and today I tried to make her dress...
I think I will lower her headpiece. She reminds me of the girls in the 1930s, the only difference is that she has long hair, while most of them kept their hair over their shoulders.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/31-May-2011/219093-DSCN1417_01.JPG

pcj
05-31-2011, 12:13 PM
Hello Everyone,

I've just started to do the underpainting on my monk
using burnt umber and raw umber.

Donbob - Your monk is looking really good, have you done
any more to it ?

Patricia

Marigold
05-31-2011, 02:10 PM
Hello, everybody is making great progress! :clap:

Snjolaug:
Thanks for the report on Iceland :) good to hear everything is calming down a bit. I have to give my friends in Reykjavic a call. I find volcanos fascinating but that's easy for me to say, not having to live with such a force of nature in the direct neighborhood. I am happy to see you join in with the Lady - now I am not the only one painting her. The drawing looks good. I notice how "boyish" her face is: ... not really "pretty", but interesting... Zoi says the same is true for Delilah, looks like Alexandre had an eye for unusual faces.

Patricia:
The monk looks still very good. I like how your drawing clarifies all the confusing areas in the fabric that do not have much contrast in the original: this will help you a lot. I have never seen anybody use a combination of raw and burnt umber for underpainting. Is one lighter or more transparent than the other?

Zoi: You set yourself a challenge, painting a younger and prettier version of Delilah :lol: You may have been successful already: I think she does look younger in your painting! You made her chin smaller and higher, that changes her expression a bit.

Susanne

Marigold
05-31-2011, 02:25 PM
Tina:
Your underpainting has the same softness that I already admired in your drawings, I find that very appealing (and it is something I have great difficulty with, my paintings tend to be hard and linear). I can see how this makes the painting process easier, keeping everything rather fluid and allowing you to add your accents at the end when you can see where they are needed.

I think I should have done a bit more careful reading before diving in with my painted layer, but maybe my umber layer can be a sienna layer and I can do either a grisaille or a colour block in now? Perhaps to do a master study you need some master time and master patience :lol: So I have had to add some white to correct my drawing errors as the burnt sienna had dried, the hand is still a bit misplaced but I cant face moving that so will live with it. Not sure whether to do a grisaille or dive in with colour now, or maybe just a grisaille of the flesh.

I originally wanted to do a grisaille of the flesh areas as well but I changed my mind. In my reference it is not conclusive but in Delilah I am fairly certain that Cabanel did not do a grisaille... I was looking at how transparent and warm the shadows are, and how delicately the details of her headdress merge into the shadows behind, I think this is achieved by letting a lot of the underpainting show through and it does not look grey to me. Other areas to look at are her belt and Samson's face.

The thing that mystifies me about this method is that in order to preserve the transparency, you must get the value and color temperature of the earth underpainting exactely right. Otherwise it will not blends with the rest of the image without or with very little opaque color on top. I find this very difficult.

Not trying to discourage you from using a grisaille which I find a wonderful technique :), just giving my impressions from looking at the original.


Susanne

Marigold
05-31-2011, 02:33 PM
Here is my current progress. The dress is quite confusing with so many folds and patterns and lace and warm and cool colors. I decided to take advantage of the layers to sort this out and make sure I can keep a consistent overall design. I am painting the form first and the patterns later. Also, as a lot of the warmer tones belong to the flower pattern, I will introduce those colors later and start out with the cool blues and purples I see in the basic fabric. Still very rough but it's a start.

Colors are cobalt blue, a Transparent Ocre and a Venetian Red. Not sure I get the idea of an "ebauche" right, because these are not really "dead colors"...

Susanne

Fleffyjen
05-31-2011, 05:19 PM
GReat work in here, guys!:clap::clap:
It really is fab-, jealous as have taken on my 3rd part time job to pay the bills and have NOOOO time to play - but really inspirational efforts here! Keep up the good work!!

pcj
06-01-2011, 03:02 AM
Hello Everyone,
I did a bit more of the underpainting today.
Patricia

zoi_p
06-01-2011, 04:26 AM
This is a clumsy headpiece and I have to change those diamonds- and adjust brightness as well.
I couldn't tell that there wasn't a grisaille step in the original.
So I guess I have these options:
1) carry on with the grisaille technique
2) use the grisaille as a guide and apply opaque colors
3) turn the grisaille into a sepia-coloured painting before applying colors
4) quit
What do u think?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Jun-2011/219093-DSCN1421_01.JPG

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 09:54 PM
Luicre and Neil thanks for stopping by! :wave:
Zoi, i am very glad to see you are joining us. You are progressing nicely, remember to watch your value structures. :)
Patricia, your transferred drawing looks great!!
Festina, welcome, I am glad you are joining us also! :wave:

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 09:56 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/29-May-2011/117326-P1030074_1_1.JPG



Tina, what you are doing here is beautiful. Even at the umber stage, this has a nice glow to it.

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 09:59 PM
Hi again
Here it is :) Had some problem, but hopefully I'll succeed now.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-May-2011/231626-mala_konu.JPG

Festina, your drawing is coming along nicely. :thumbsup: Paper might be a very absorbent surface to work on, but certainly can be done. Check the placement of the features in the face- if it helps, use a grid for correct placement.

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:01 PM
This is a clumsy headpiece and I have to change those diamonds- and adjust brightness as well.
I couldn't tell that there wasn't a grisaille step in the original.
So I guess I have these options:
1) carry on with the grisaille technique
2) use the grisaille as a guide and apply opaque colors
3) turn the grisaille into a sepia-coloured painting before applying colors
4) quit
What do u think?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Jun-2011/219093-DSCN1421_01.JPG

Zoi, do NOT quit! :eek:
For now, keep refining your grisaille then glaze it. You could also go to translucent layers. Either way, keep going!

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:03 PM
GReat work in here, guys!:clap::clap:
It really is fab-, jealous as have taken on my 3rd part time job to pay the bills and have NOOOO time to play - but really inspirational efforts here! Keep up the good work!!

Jeni, thanks for stopping by! :wave:

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:04 PM
Hello Everyone,
I did a bit more of the underpainting today.
Patricia

Patricia, I like the quality of the line you have....which will probably change into being less linear later, but it looks really cool right now. :D

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:07 PM
Susanne, she is looking so gorgeous! I am really enjoying your progress. Not much to say right now, except I look forward to your next update.

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by TinaC
So here is where I am up to so far. I have started with a burnt sienna underpainting but already I am looking with envy at the grisaille paintings on this thread. Or are they one and the same, I am confused about technique labels already?

Tina, they are different things...but similar. The umber layer is the transparent brown layer. The grisaille is the opaque black/white(ish) layer that sometimes goes over an umber layer.

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:12 PM
I think I should have done a bit more careful reading before diving in with my painted layer, but maybe my umber layer can be a sienna layer and I can do either a grisaille or a colour block in now? Perhaps to do a master study you need some master time and master patience So I have had to add some white to correct my drawing errors as the burnt sienna had dried, the hand is still a bit misplaced but I cant face moving that so will live with it. Not sure whether to do a grisaille or dive in with colour now, or maybe just a grisaille of the flesh.

Master patience for sure Tina! Don't worry about adding the white, it is more important for the drawing to be correct. The nice thing about oils is they are so forgiving. :D

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:14 PM
:clap: hi everybody, keep sending your work in, looking forward to seeing all your progress.This is where I am at now,finishing off the first layer of grisaille,[need to lighten it and more thicker paint,the photo makes it lighter than it is]donhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-May-2011/108101-GEDC0405.jpg

Donbob, this looks awesome, have you started the glazing yet?

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:16 PM
Sandra how is your Lady Venus coming along? :D

stapeliad
06-01-2011, 10:23 PM
Just want to say to everyone- you are all doing such an amazing job, and congratulations for sticking with it and getting to the halfway point! This project, i think, has been an exceptionally wonderful group of painters working together. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and supporting each other so wonderfully. :clap:

Festina lente
06-02-2011, 06:35 AM
Here is my current progress. The dress is quite confusing with so many folds and patterns and lace and warm and cool colors. I decided to take advantage of the layers to sort this out and make sure I can keep a consistent overall design. I am painting the form first and the patterns later. Also, as a lot of the warmer tones belong to the flower pattern, I will introduce those colors later and start out with the cool blues and purples I see in the basic fabric. Still very rough but it's a start.

Colors are cobalt blue, a Transparent Ocre and a Venetian Red. Not sure I get the idea of an "ebauche" right, because these are not really "dead colors"...

Susanne

Hi Susanne
Your picture is really lovely. You capture the likeness of the face very well. I'm having problem with that, even though I use gridlines. I need to practise more. Also your colours are coming well and also all the shadows etc.! From my printout of the painting which is very dark, I can't see the chair, but I can see that you can see it better. I will try to follow you in this attempt:wave:thank you !
Regards, Snjolaug

donbob
06-02-2011, 06:40 AM
hi jessica, not started putting the colour on yet, lighting up the painting first with thicker paint, hope it makes a differance when i post the result could you tell me if it was worth the trouble when you see it. keep up the good work everybody.don:clap:

pcj
06-05-2011, 10:04 AM
Hello Everyone,

I've been pondering the monk for several days now -

Am I doing this umber layer correctly ? It seems to me that
I'm using too much turps [to get the lighter values]
Should I just give a general indication of form etc rather
than covering the entire canvas with too much detail as
I've been doing ?

Also, I've been thinking about the sky. Should I be putting
any umber in the sky at this stage ? [ which would have to then
be covered later.] I have 2 reference photo's for the monk. One
is the yellower version which Jessica posted and the other
is a bluer version that I found on the internet. It looks as if
Cabanel did the blue version first and then glazed over it
with burnt sienna ? to get the yellower version. So putting
umber into the sky now would mess things up ??

I've also been doing colour tests. Could anyone give me
advice on pallette and medium please ?
How would you go about doing this painting ??

Sorry to ask so many question but I am completely
new to painting.

I've posted 3 images.
The first is my painting [this is as far as I've got]
and the other 2 are the 2 references I mentioned - one
bluer and one yellower.

Patricia

donbob
06-05-2011, 02:57 PM
hi everyone ,just finished my second attempt at the grisaille.Please give me your comments before I attempt to proceed to colour at long last,its tedious but at least I dont have to worry about tonal values, colour is hard enough.Keep posting your working progress I look forward to seeing all your your progress.donhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jun-2011/108101-wet_canvas_latest.jpg

Marigold
06-05-2011, 03:47 PM
Hello Patricia, you are doing really well, the monk is looking great. :clap: Is this really your first painting?

I hope Don or Jessica or anyone can give you some guidance.
In the meantime, here is what I think (for what it's worth, I am almost as new to this as you are):

Am I doing this umber layer correctly ? It seems to me that
I'm using too much turps [to get the lighter values]
Should I just give a general indication of form etc rather
than covering the entire canvas with too much detail as
I've been doing ?

Also, I've been thinking about the sky. Should I be putting
any umber in the sky at this stage ? I cannot give a definite answer because this is an open question for me as well. On my umber layer, I have used almost no turps. My surface was smooth and non-absorbant, so I could get the lighter tones by spreading the pigment very thinly with the brush. I picked up Daves recommendation from post #122: I had one brush to apply the umber and another dry brush, a large bristle filbert, that I used to spread the pigment whereever I needed lighter shades or soft transitions. As I understand it the umber layer is mostly to have a foundation for the shadow shapes as well as their correct placement. There is no need to get all the midtone values exactely right.

You have a warm imprimatura, this will be okay for the sky - you need no darkness in the sky just some warmth, which you already have.

I have 2 reference photo's for the monk. One
is the yellower version which Jessica posted and the other
is a bluer version that I found on the internet. It looks as if
Cabanel did the blue version first and then glazed over it
with burnt sienna ? to get the yellower version. No! There is just one painting, it is just the color bias on photographs of the painting that varies. Just paint whichever one you prefer...

I've also been doing colour tests. Could anyone give me
advice on pallette and medium please ?
How would you go about doing this painting ?? It is not a very colorful picture. You should be able to paint most of it with burnt umber, one earth yellow (yellow ochre or raw sienna), one earth red (venetian red or similar), black and white, plus a blue for the sky. I would put a rough version of the sky in first, so you can judge the temperature of the colors on the figure correctely (if you put in the blue last, the other colors might appear warmer than you intended). The process depends on your decision whether to do a grisaille like Don or not. A grisaille could work well for this painting.

If you do not do a grisaille, you will need at least two color layers. I am almost as inexperienced as you, but this is what I do with my lady: My first color layer basically takes the place of the grisaille - its most important function is to model the form which means getting all the values right. I also try to get the approximate color of each area. Lightest lights, deepest shadow, fine detail and also some of the more subtle transitions in color and value I leave for subsequent color layers. I use no medium for the first layer. For the second and following layers, some translucency is desirable: I will use scumbling and glazing. I will probably paint into a very thin couch of medium for that, or alternatively you can add some (as little as possible) medium to your paint.

Susanne

Marigold
06-05-2011, 04:01 PM
Hello Don, your monk is perfect, I do not see any problems. I like your painting a lot so far. :thumbsup:

I will watch your color stages with great interest. You will be glazing with rather dark colors on top of a rather dark grisaille: this has been something I have struggled with in my grisaille attempts, and I have abandoned grisaille+glazing as a result of those problems (among others). Please post you progress even in-between stages. :wave:

Susanne

Marigold
06-05-2011, 04:14 PM
Hi Susanne
Your picture is really lovely. You capture the likeness of the face very well. I'm having problem with that, even though I use gridlines. I need to practise more. Also your colours are coming well and also all the shadows etc.! From my printout of the painting which is very dark, I can't see the chair, but I can see that you can see it better. I will try to follow you in this attempt:wave:thank you !
Regards, Snjolaug
Thank you Snjolaug! I know likeness can be a struggle! Two things you might want to check: to me it seems the corner of her mouth should extend a little further to the right (very minimal). Also her right eye might be placed too low, very minimal as well. Right now the face is more or less a line drawing and it is difficult to judge likeness without all the shadow shapes. A lot of the character of this face depends on the shape & value of the eye sockets. You can establish those now, as I did, or later with your color layers. Good luck on your progress - thanks for keepin me company with this Cabanel painting. We can do it! :thumbsup:

I will post my first color layer (dead color / ebauche) tomorrow or Tuesday - I have everything done except for the face. I use very simplified color for now, only white, venetian red, raw umber and transparent ochre, plus cobalt blue for the dress.

Susanne

stapeliad
06-05-2011, 09:51 PM
Patricia,

I've been pondering the monk for several days now -
Am I doing this umber layer correctly ? It seems to me that
I'm using too much turps [to get the lighter values]
Should I just give a general indication of form etc rather
than covering the entire canvas with too much detail as
I've been doing ?

Yes you are doing just fine on the umber layer. To get the lighter values, wipe the paint off the canvas with a rag. Remember you are giving yourself a map to follow for the color layers, so while you don't have to go super nuts with the details, do give yourself enough information.

Also, I've been thinking about the sky. Should I be putting
any umber in the sky at this stage ?

It's your choice- you can, or you don't have to. Remember that your color layers, if you are not glazing, will be translucent so the umber will get covered for the most part. If you would rather do the figure only in the umber layer, and leave the sky alone until color application, that is fine too.


I've also been doing colour tests. Could anyone give me
advice on pallette and medium please ?
How would you go about doing this painting ??

My palette recommendation for the monk is:

Alizarin OR permanent Rose (maybe...you might not need it)
Venetian Red OR Transparent red oxide
Yellow Ochre OR Naples Yellow
French Ultramarine
Burnt umber
Ivory OR Mars Black

Medium...I like to keep things simple. 50/50 oil and solvent mix will work just fine.

You are doing a great job, keep going. :thumbsup:

stapeliad
06-05-2011, 10:00 PM
hi everyone ,just finished my second attempt at the grisaille.Please give me your comments before I attempt to proceed to colour at long last,its tedious but at least I dont have to worry about tonal values, colour is hard enough.Keep posting your working progress I look forward to seeing all your your progress.donhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jun-2011/108101-wet_canvas_latest.jpg

Don, he is looking marvelous, I think you are ready for color.

My glazing palette recommendation is:

Transparent red oxide
Alizrin OR permanent rose (maybe- you might not need it)
Indian Yellow (WN brand)
French Ultramarine
Transparent brown oxide, or you could use burnt umber too.
Flake white

maybe black, but mixing layers of french ultramarine and brown should suffice.

You don't *have* to use transparent pigments to glaze necessarily, but they do make it a little easier. Remember your glaze layers are just thin stains on the canvas. Use your oily rag and wipe the paint off if it is too heavy.

stapeliad
06-05-2011, 10:06 PM
I cannot give a definite answer because this is an open question for me as well. On my umber layer, I have used almost no turps. My surface was smooth and non-absorbant, so I could get the lighter tones by spreading the pigment very thinly with the brush. I picked up Daves recommendation from post #122: I had one brush to apply the umber and another dry brush, a large bristle filbert, that I used to spread the pigment whereever I needed lighter shades or soft transitions. As I understand it the umber layer is mostly to have a foundation for the shadow shapes as well as their correct placement. There is no need to get all the midtone values exactely right.

:thumbsup: thanks Susanne! :)

If you do not do a grisaille, you will need at least two color layers.

At least two, for sure, but probably more. Maybe 4-6. Remember, the translucency of the layers will give depth. Also, you may not have the same number of layers in every single part of the painting. That is absolutely fine.

If you do not do a grisaille, you will need at least two color layers. I am almost as inexperienced as you, but this is what I do with my lady: My first color layer basically takes the place of the grisaille - its most important function is to model the form which means getting all the values right. I also try to get the approximate color of each area. Lightest lights, deepest shadow, fine detail and also some of the more subtle transitions in color and value I leave for subsequent color layers. I use no medium for the first layer. For the second and following layers, some translucency is desirable: I will use scumbling and glazing. I will probably paint into a very thin couch of medium for that, or alternatively you can add some (as little as possible) medium to your paint.

This is very sound advice- just remember you are going from general to specific. Don't get too specific too quickly. Also, oil paint is very forgiving so it is ok to mess up. If you don't like a section, just wipe it out.

dollardays
06-05-2011, 10:23 PM
Susanne: She is looking beautiful. That is the one I would have chosen if I had time to do one.

Donbob: I think you have an excellent base-- keep moving forward!

Lots of wonderful pieces here!

donbob
06-06-2011, 11:58 AM
patricia I agree what susanna and jessica say about your umber stage. If you decide to do a grisaille make sure everything is tonally correct before putting any colour on it makes it so easier.don

pcj
06-06-2011, 06:19 PM
Hello Everyone,

Susanne
Thankyou very much for your reply. I really
appreciate it. I was in a dilemma
as to how to proceed. There seem to be myriad ways
of doing it and all of them seem to be good !
I think I'll go straight to colour layers as you have done.

Re: colour bias in the photo ref's - I wonder which is closest
to the original - probably the blue version since it has more
detail. I'm using that version to get the detail right but
will paint the colour more like the yellow version.

I was looking at some of Cabanel's other works on the internet,
in the hopes of finding unfinished paintings which might give
more clues as to how he worked and came across this one
'The Daughter Of Jephthah' - It looks unfinished but might
just be a finished sketch or study. Her right arm and hand
looks similar to the hand in the 'Portrait Of A Young Lady'
and her face , headdress, belt etc look very like Delilah !
http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=8159&size=large

Are you using cobalt blue and venetian red to mix the violets and
purples or do you use a different red for that ?

Jessica
Thankyou too for answering my questions. This is a terrific
thread ! :)

Donbob
Your monk is coming along very well, you've made quite a few
changes since you last posted - it looks really good.

Patricia

pcj
06-06-2011, 08:28 PM
Hello Everyone,

Susanne
..'The Daughter Of Jephthah' - It looks unfinished but might
just be a finished sketch or study. Her right arm and hand
looks similar to the hand in the 'Portrait Of A Young Lady'
and her face , headdress, belt etc look very like Delilah !
http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=8159&size=large

.Patricia

Oops -Slight correction - I meant to say her hand looks like Delilah's hand.

Marigold
06-07-2011, 02:05 AM
Susanne
I was looking at some of Cabanel's other works on the internet,
in the hopes of finding unfinished paintings which might give
more clues as to how he worked and came across this one
'The Daughter Of Jephthah' - It looks unfinished but might
just be a finished sketch or study. Her right arm and hand
looks similar to the hand in the 'Portrait Of A Young Lady'
and her face , headdress, belt etc look very like Delilah !
http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=8159&size=large Patricia, that is interesting - great painting! Cabanel does so much with so little color. I admire a lot how well he painted hands. I would not call it unfinished... but you are right it shows well his painting style. Again the shadows are very warm and transparent and somewhat "sketchy". It is telling me that with my underpainting I am pretty far off compared to Cabanel because my underpainting is rather cool and opaque.

Are you using cobalt blue and venetian red to mix the violets and
purples or do you use a different red for that ? Yes, Venetian Red. I do not want a bright purple. It is perfect because I do not want a bright purple.

Back to the underpainting: I did what you did and searched for unfinished paintings. Dave has made a reference to David earlier in the thread (around post 120). There are a few David underpaintings on ARC. On all of them the skin color is very "grey", looks like just umber+white, plus sometimes strong red on cheeks, noses, fingers and ears.

For the case of this study, I have compared two paintings by Jacques Louis David:
Henriette Verninac - a finished painting http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=10444&size=large (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=10444&size=large)

Adelaide Pastorale - an ebauche http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=22475&size=large (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=22475&size=large)

What does Henriette have that Adelaide does not have? :) It seems to me that the yellows and the "rosy" reds were not present in the underpaintig but were added in glazes during the finishing stages. So it is really a very similar process to a grisaille painting with sucessive glazes/scumbles. Those two paintings give me the roadmap for my painting, I will try to do something similar. Looking at your example "Jephtah's daughter", I see that there are big differences between David and Cabanel (as must be expected), but no copy is 100% anyway so I'll stick with my plan.

Marigold
06-07-2011, 02:20 AM
Susanne, she is looking so gorgeous! I am really enjoying your progress. Not much to say right now, except I look forward to your next update. Jessica, thank you :) and here is finally my next update. This is more work that expected and I have not even started with the complicated stuff :D

Susanne: She is looking beautiful. That is the one I would have chosen if I had time to do one. Nora, so nice of you to stop by. Too bad you could not paint along this month (well... three in a row is a bit much, right :)). It would have been interesting to compare the results as you and I paint very differently.

This is my underpainting. Some minor areas are not done (the chair and her fan) but I have the dress and the skin. Wow, I know now why it is called dead layer :D I painted with very reduced color: just venetian red + raw umber + white for the skin, add cobalt blue and ochre for the dress, and grey to neutralize where needed. This makes it easy to focus on values while still giving some indication of the final color. I kind of like this process.

Susanne

pcj
06-07-2011, 01:54 PM
Hi Susanne,
Wow, your lady is looking very impressive especially the
eyes [ they must have been difficult to do because of the
shadow]


Patricia

pcj
06-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Patricia, that is interesting - great painting! Cabanel does so much with so little color. I admire a lot how well he painted hands. I would not call it unfinished... but you are right it shows well his painting style. Again the shadows are very warm and transparent and somewhat "sketchy". It is telling me that with my underpainting I am pretty far off compared to Cabanel because my underpainting is rather cool and opaque.

Yes, Venetian Red. I do not want a bright purple. It is perfect because I do not want a bright purple.

Back to the underpainting: I did what you did and searched for unfinished paintings. Dave has made a reference to David earlier in the thread (around post 120). There are a few David underpaintings on ARC. On all of them the skin color is very "grey", looks like just umber+white, plus sometimes strong red on cheeks, noses, fingers and ears.

For the case of this study, I have compared two paintings by Jacques Louis David:
Henriette Verninac - a finished painting http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=10444&size=large (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=10444&size=large)

Adelaide Pastorale - an ebauche http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=22475&size=large (http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwork.php?artworkid=22475&size=large)

What does Henriette have that Adelaide does not have? :) It seems to me that the yellows and the "rosy" reds were not present in the underpaintig but were added in glazes during the finishing stages. So it is really a very similar process to a grisaille painting with sucessive glazes/scumbles. Those two paintings give me the roadmap for my painting, I will try to do something similar. Looking at your example "Jephtah's daughter", I see that there are big differences between David and Cabanel (as must be expected), but no copy is 100% anyway so I'll stick with my plan.


Adelaide also lacks the 'opaqueness' of both Henriette and a full grisaille
but instead has an indication of colour as well as value. Is transparency
and colour the difference between an ebauche and a grisaille ?
I'm not quite sure what an ebauche actually is - or can it describe any
type of initial underpainting ?

Patricia

TinaC
06-08-2011, 06:16 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/08-Jun-2011/117326-P1030175_1.JPG

Hi guys - here's where I am up to so far, I'm not happy with it at all but thought I would show and tell. I am not so keen on my handling of the flesh. I have recently bought a new brand of paint Cobra and the some of colours are a little different. Anyway, I am using WN burnt umber, WN yellow ochre, WN naples yellow, Cobra cad red, (although I think a bit of Cobra pyrole slipped in somewhere) and a Cobra perm Green deep and a Cobra white called titanium buff which is quite interesting but I think I need the familiarity of the normal titanium. I think I need to get some ultramarine blue in it, its all too warm at the moment. Also the ref is quite dark, so I lightened it so see some detail but am getting in a bit of a pickle with working from two refs.:( Some paintings go well and some just fight you all the way it seems.

I'll be back later with another update and to comment properly on everyone else's work, but for now - let the battle recommence!

TTFN

donbob
06-08-2011, 11:58 AM
:clap: hi tina ,I think your painting is superb at this stage.I had the same problem before, using two or more references, stick with one and dont change your mind.As for your flesh colors they dont seem that far off,I would concentrate on the values first, squinting, looking far away, in the mirror, leave for a few days and looking again.once the values are right you can play about with the color,I have been told value is more important.Ihope it helps.don