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couturej
04-05-2011, 10:45 AM
Would you say that a desaturated Yellow makes Brown or Olive Green?

sidbledsoe
04-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Brown if it is a desaturated yellow (like yellow ochre and some raw umbers), green if it is desaturated and the hue is shifted towards green. I have read that a desaturated yellow looks green but I must believe that if it looks green then it is green and not yellow, for all intent and purposes.

Goldeelocks
04-05-2011, 11:15 AM
It's brown for me usually.

About yellow, lots of paint program don't display yellow values correctly it seems.

The top is the yellow. The one under that is what I get if I lower the value in RGB. But if you look at a yellow object like a banana that's already quite desaturated, the yellow is a sort of brown, not green. But in RGB you get green.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/204698-yellowgreen.JPG

That CMYK wheel you linked does it too. That can't be correct, it's way too green looking.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/204698-greenrgb.JPG

couturej
04-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Thank you Sid and Goldeelocks for the explanation!

Goldeenlocks, All my color Wheels (store bought color wheels) and Pantone CMYK fandecks do it as well. All the desaturated colors look Green except for the lowest value and chroma which looks like Raw Umber to me. Like this:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/84697-Yellow.jpg

sidbledsoe
04-05-2011, 12:04 PM
Yes, I believe munsell charts look green too. I don't see a color close to yellow ochre in there :confused: . Mine was more an opinion than an explanation, I would defer to Einion or someone more knowledgeable about the techinical explanation. In my mind, for painting purposes that is, yellow is yellow and those colors on the chart would make for some nice spring foliage :D

couturej
04-05-2011, 01:08 PM
I think Munsell uses a Yellow with some red in it as their 5Y (their middle red) which would be the reason the low chroma colors would be brown but if you change it to .52GY which is a true middle yellow the results are the same as HSB or at least similar. Munsell 5Y is about

The Munsell 5Y is 53 hue angle in HSB. Here's the result in HSB with the lower chroma colors represented. Their also is the Yellow Ochre. In Munsell the 5Y desaturated colors looks more brown then this.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/84697-Color.jpg

couturej
04-05-2011, 02:22 PM
Here's Munsell:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/84697-54.jpg

Einion
04-05-2011, 03:00 PM
Would you say that a desaturated Yellow makes Brown or Olive Green?
This depends quite a bit on the exact hue and how desaturated you mean... plus of course value plays a part.

All true browns are outside the zone of yellows. Similar dark-valued and low-chroma yellows/orange-yellows are more like Raw Umber which can be loosely called "a brown" but that doesn't mean it's actually brown (at least not when the hue is a yellow, some Raw Umbers are brown but that's because they're atypically orangey).

The dull yellows that look greenish or olive should really be written as 'olive green' IMO, to try to help prevent the impression that they're truly green; people are confused enough about certain aspects of hue without throwing them curveballs :)


About yellow, lots of paint program don't display yellow values correctly it seems.

The top is the yellow. The one under that is what I get if I lower the value in RGB. But if you look at a yellow object like a banana that's already quite desaturated, the yellow is a sort of brown, not green.
...
That CMYK wheel you linked does it too. That can't be correct, it's way too green looking.
Is it?

If you can find a representative photo of a banana that shows what you mean and post it here (or post a link) we can have a look at the colours in detail. Remember that some things are the colour that they are, not the colour they appear to be or should be according to theory or expectation.


I have read that a desaturated yellow looks green but I must believe that if it looks green then it is green and not yellow, for all intent and purposes.
So by extension if a blue looks violet it's a violet? ;) What about when a grey looks lavender, is it a lavender, or when a red looks blueish...?

Einion

Goldeelocks
04-05-2011, 03:41 PM
Is it?

If you can find a representative photo of a banana that shows what you mean and post it here (or post a link) we can have a look at the colours in detail. Remember that some things are the colour that they are, not the colour they appear to be or should be according to theory or expectation.

I'll try, the color of yellow in shadow is always in the brown region for me. Never in the green. Regardless of the saturation the local value has.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/204698-bananasx.JPG

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/204698-pics.JPG

But, when I lower the value of RGB yellow in Painter or PS or any digital program, I get a distinct dirty green. The same thing happens when you lower the saturation in digital programs, they pull the yellow to green.

sidbledsoe
04-05-2011, 04:14 PM
So by extension if a blue looks violet it's a violet? ;) What about when a grey looks lavender, is it a lavender, or when a red looks blueish...? Einion
I did refer to a desaturated yellow. To me, desaturated means lowered chroma but the same hue retained, value could be lower, remain the same, or higher.
To some though, I think desaturated means to mix with white!
Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorfulness)is what saturation is defined as by wikipedia.
"colorfulness of a color related to it's own brightness"
and "Saturation is the proportion of pure chromatic color in the total color sensation".
And then there is the WC Glossary:
"saturation – A similar term to chroma but not exactly synonymous. More correctly it means the amount of colour in relation to its brightness."
Other sources have other descriptions but none describe a shifting of the hue.

So are the charts presented above really attempting to accurately show desaturation or are they showing lowering of value steps?
In my world (albeit somewhat naive theoretically :D ) a desaturated yellow would still look yellow and a desaturated greenish yellow would look greenish yellow, for my intent and purposes (ie., usage in paintings).
As for a blue that looks violet, I would classify that as a violet blue.
A desaturated lavender should look lavender and could be greyish.
A neutral grey should not look lavender.
Now a red that looks blueish, I don't know about that one, I would say that the progression of hues that red must go through to get to blue are as follows, starting with a middle blue, then looking violetish blue, then violet, then violet blue, then blue, but a red that looks blueish :eek: I don't know about that one.

couturej
04-05-2011, 04:21 PM
(their middle red) oops above I meant 5Y in Munsell is their middle yellow.

:clap:Einon, Thank you so much that clears things up for me.

I think the banana in shadow would have some red in it because not only would yellow lose chroma but it would be cooler as well if you're dealing with a warm light source. Also you have to take into consideration reflected light from the surrounding objects. Just my understanding of it.

bobc100
04-05-2011, 05:08 PM
In my world (albeit somewhat naive theoretically :D ) a desaturated yellow would still look yellow and a desaturated greenish yellow would look greenish yellow, for my intent and purposes (ie., usage in paintings).I think it depends on whether you're defining "desaturated" through process or perception. In Photoshop, for example, a hue angle of 60 means nothing more than that you have equal parts of red and green with a smaller part of blue. What it looks like to us is completely irrelevant. Perception agrees with you, but perception is subjective, which is why attempts to define colors in an objective system rely on some objective process for reducing saturation. And those seem to always make a darkened, desaturated yellow look green. It is highly unlikely, however, that the shadows in the banana were desaturated by one of these same processes.

couturej
04-05-2011, 05:57 PM
Sid, These charts show both Value changes and saturation changes. For example to add white to any color the Value will change and so will the Chroma. Yellow has a very light value so when white is added the value change is negligible.

sidbledsoe
04-05-2011, 07:21 PM
The munsell chart posted doesn't look like it is as greenish in lower values as they do in the pantone chart. In fact, I don't think it is very greenish at all.
The pantone chart goes quite green with lower values.

I think that a uniform saturation series should have the same colors such as those on this page (http://www.huevaluechroma.com/093.php) as Briggs says, "a single color represented under different amounts of illumination"
Though other factors such as reflected light may influence the color in those shadows, I think it is basically what you are seeing in the banana and chip clamp photos, ie, the same basic color under different amounts of illumination. We know that both the banana and the chip clamp are the same color in their respective shaded areas. However, they are desaturated by the lower illumination in the shadows and note that they don't look green in spite of the fact that the bananas' surrounding color is green! The sampled banana shadow area would receive reflected light from the adjoining banana surface which is the same basic color, yellow.
The sampled chip clamp would receive reflected light from that surface which looks to be fairly neutral in color.
If I were painting those bananas (realist, not expressionist), then I would choose a desaturated yellow like ochre or mix a desaturated yellow myself, but I would not select a color from a chart that would give me a decidedly greenish hue when applied.
A uniform saturation chart may have a match that is a more appropriate color.
Excellent examples Goldey!

Goldeelocks
04-05-2011, 09:17 PM
The munsell chart looks better to me at least.

Tried to desaturate and lower value at the same time. It goes from right to left and left to right. With the primaries. A dark yellow doesn't really exist, it seems to go to brown for me, but I could make this a greener shade too, I just don't see many yellow objects with a green shade, like Sible says, it's just what I see in objects.

I seem to be messing up in the last 2 shades though, the less yellow the mixture has, the bigger the jumps away from the yellow are, it's really hard to control those really dark yellows for me still.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Apr-2011/204698-yellowsss.JPG

sidbledsoe
04-05-2011, 10:07 PM
All true browns are outside the zone of yellows. Einion
:confused: Most of what I have read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown)says that Browns are darkened yellows (or orange or reds)
"In terms of the visible spectrum, "brown" refers to high wavelength (low frequency) hues, yellow, orange, or red, in combination with low luminance or saturation.[4]

See also pages 95, 96 of Blue & Yellow Don't Make Green by Michael Wilcox where he says browns are darkened yellows, oranges, or reds.

Many yellow or yellowish brown pigments are listed here (http://www.artiscreation.com/brown.html).

I am not saying I somehow know that browns can be yellow, just that out "there" in the literature, they are very often referred to as such.

BTW here are some reflectance curves (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/IMG/RC/yellow.html) for what handprint classifies as "unsaturated" yellow pigment colors like yellow ochre, raw sienna, raw umber.

Richard Saylor
04-06-2011, 04:32 AM
All I know is that if I lower the value of yellow it turns a dull olive green, not brown. This is in RGB additive, where yellow is equal parts of R and G but no B. If I lower the saturation to the point where the green goes away, it just turns grey, not brown. In RGB additive I don't see how to get brown from yellow by monkeying around with value and saturation.

Einion
04-06-2011, 08:42 AM
(their middle red) oops above I meant 5Y in Munsell is their middle yellow.

:clap:Einon, Thank you so much that clears things up for me.

I think the banana in shadow would have some red in it because not only would yellow lose chroma but it would be cooler as well if you're dealing with a warm light source.
Welcome.

Incidentally, that 'rule' about warm light/cool shadow doesn't work the way it's commonly supposed (we'll get back to that in another thread rather than derail this one).

Also you have to take into consideration reflected light from the surrounding objects. Just my understanding of it.
Yep; this can have quite a profound effect at times, although the effect varies greatly needless to say.


I'll try, the color of yellow in shadow is always in the brown region for me. Never in the green. Regardless of the saturation the local value has.
Okay, let's have a look at sampled areas of the banana photo:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/3842-Bananas_05-04.JPG

Some of these spots should look greenish to most people, and some definitely brown or at least brownish (colour zones aren't sharply delineated, so some grey areas are perfectly normal). Now relating to what I said above about the colour of things being whatever they are, rather than what they 'should' be; all of the areas that truly are brown are no longer yellow in hue, but firmly oranges. The dull-yellow or ochre areas are definitely yellows, the "I'm not sure but it looks brownish at least." areas are deep yellows or light oranges (orange-yellow or yellow-orange).

But, when I lower the value of RGB yellow in Painter or PS or any digital program, I get a distinct dirty green. The same thing happens when you lower the saturation in digital programs, they pull the yellow to green.
This should be apparently green to make it clear it's not actually turning green; greenish-looking yellows are still yellow after all. It's important when visualising or discussing illusory colours to try to make the distinction, i.e. to firmly identify the hue, both for clarity and to help prevent certain common colour-rendering mistakes (perhaps the most common being shadows that are too blue).

I'll post back later with something to try to clearly illustrate where the zone of brown lies, and where it doesn't.


I did refer to a desaturated yellow. To me, desaturated means lowered chroma but the same hue retained, value could be lower, remain the same, or higher.
Yes, that was understood.

What I was getting at is extending the analogy of "if it looks green it is green for all intents and purposes"; in order to be internally consistent then any similar illusory colours would be considered examples of the colour they merely appear to be, but aren't. It's perfectly okay to paint things the way they look if one wants, but that's very different to saying this or that in a subject are such-and-such a colour, when it can be shown they're something else.

To some though, I think desaturated means to mix with white!
Add white rather than mix with white (to make it clear it's a colour thing rather than a mixing thing). And yes, this will desaturate a colour, as do +grey and +black of course.

Other sources have other descriptions but none describe a shifting of the hue.
Any good sources will when the subject is covered in some depth; it's brought up here frequently - remember the Abney effect mentioned late last year?

Einion

couturej
04-06-2011, 08:46 AM
Sorry the Munsell Chart isn't at the same hue angle as the first chart where I was showing in HSB the desaturated colors of a middle yellow goes to olive green. I was just showing that Munsell's Middle Yellow is different then HSB middle yellow (Hue Angle). I'll be back with comparisons side by side at the same hue angles to clear up the confusion (sorry about that). I guess it comes down to what color you consider to be yellow as bobc100 pointed out. For me their is only one Mid Yellow and it's one that doesn't come in a tube (Primary Yellow). The rest either lean toward orange or lean toward green. Just the way I think of it. But I see that isn't the norm.

Re: reflective light and the photos posted earlier. I don't think that the samples taken earlier are being affected by reflective light. I was just saying that is another aspect to consider in shadows. I think most of the areas affected by reflective light on something like a table would be the down facing planes.

Einion, that's fantastic! Thank you for great explanation and I'm looking forward to learning more about the warm light and cool shadows.

couturej
04-06-2011, 09:18 AM
Here's Munsell and HSB at the same hue angles:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/84697-10Y.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/../Community/images/06-Apr-2011/84697-Yellow.jpg

couturej
04-06-2011, 09:43 AM
I also found this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartreuse_%28color%29

Olive is a dark shade of yellow typically seen on green olives. It can be formed by adding a little black to yellow dye or paint. As a color word in the English language, it is unexpectedly old, appearing in late Middle English. Shaded toward green, it becomes olive drab. Olive can also be referred to as dark yellow. That the color olive is a shade of yellow can readily be ascertained by inspecting its hex code—the red and green values are equal, with no blue value, signifying a shade of yellow.

Sometimes people of what in the early 20th century was called the Mediterranean subrace of the Caucasian race are described as being "olive-skinned", to denote shades of medium toned white skin that is darker than the average color for Caucasians, such as many people from southern Italy. In religion, olive is sometimes used as a Church color during Ordinary Time. Shades of olive, such as Olive Drab, are frequently used for camouflage, or by the military in general. The complementary color of olive is light blue.

Einion
04-06-2011, 09:55 AM
So here are some colour blocks from yellow to red in 10° increments, with equal saturation and brightness across each row. Successive rows go up in brightness and down in saturation.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/3842-Low-Chroma_Progression_Y-R.JPG

The left side will look greenish to most people (the effect may be magnified here by simultaneous contast) with the right side dull reds, but distinctly not browns. The central zone should be clearly where the browns lie, as well as colours that look brownish but perhaps can't be pinned down verbally.

Going right or left of centre, where you wouldn't any longer see something as brown is a matter of individual perception, even linguistics may play a part. For me, only the oranges and red-oranges (fourth and fifth columns) are browns but where the hue is truly yellow or truly red the colour is no longer anything that can legitimately be classed as brown.

...

Back to the thread title specifically, one of the take-home messages here is that dull yellows can look greenish, that's indisputable, but that doesn't make them greens. They merely appear to be green; now you can choose to consider them as greens if you wish but to be consistent shouldn't you then class all illusory colours as examples of the colour they only appear to be - despite this being purely a matter of illusion? Apart from the confusion that will naturally arise when trying to communicate with others be aware that it's very easy to fall into traps when it comes to mixing, where a label or idea that doesn't quite tally can tend to influence colour mixtures to a surprising degree.

Einion

oddman99
04-06-2011, 10:16 AM
Consider yellow as a band colour extending over a range of wavelengths on the colour spectrum. It goes from near orange on one side to near green on the other. Then, when darkening the yellow, dropping the value not the chroma, it will go green if it has a green component, and it will go brown if it has orange. If the yellow is absolutely neutral between its spectral neighbours then it should remain yellow i.e., neither green nor brown.

That, at least, is my theory. Those with accurate Munsell charts may try to check it out.

sidbledsoe
04-06-2011, 10:24 AM
Would you say that a desaturated Yellow makes Brown or Olive Green?
There were no stipulations about what colors would be used to make the resulting desaturated yellow.
The word "makes" implies to me that she is asking about physically mixing a color. Since this question does not specify how a yellow is desaturated, my answers had to do only with physically mixing a desaturated yellow.
Let's say that I mix a color from a saturated yellow that is an exact match with yellow ochre and that yellow ochre has a hue angle that is deep yellow, not a hue angle that is olive green. An angle of 65-70, as it is identified by handprint (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/earthp.html)for instance. What I am hearing is that this color I mix is not actually a desaturated yellow because it must be olive green to be a desaturated yellow? or because it is not represented on a pantone chart?

Consider yellow as a band colour extending over a range of wavelengths on the colour spectrum. It goes from near orange on one side to near green on the other. Then, when darkening the yellow, dropping the value not the chroma, it will go green if it has a green component, and it will go brown if it has orange. If the yellow is absolutely neutral between its spectral neighbours then it should remain yellow i.e., neither green nor brown.
This I must fully agree with and it is how I think when mixing yellows, either olive, mid yellow, or orange/brownish.

couturej
04-06-2011, 11:56 AM
Einion, Thanks for the charts! Very interesting.

For me I'm always interested in getting the results I want and expect. So understanding that a yellow has some red or magenta in it helps if I'm trying to achieve the most saturated oranges. Clean mixes would require that the third primary isn't present in the mix.

Also if working with neutral grays if I know what to expect when mixing a neutral gray with different Yellows that lean toward green or different yellows that lean toward orange then I can work without getting results that I didn't expect. I might be under the impression that my gray isn't neutral if I don't know what different yellows are suppose to look like desaturated. That's actually what started me thinking about this because I was using Golden Acylic neutral gays with yellows and saw results that matched my charts but didn't match what some people were saying.

Same with mixing complements. If when mixing complements you should get a straight line toward neutral then knowing what a color truly looks like desaturated will make it so I know when it actually just shifting through browns (for yellows) and not really a complement and will be able to see in which way it's shifting.

Just the way I feel about it.

Goldeelocks
04-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Einion: I see a tiny bit of green in the banana now. Although it's still dominantly brown for me. Well, it's quite hard to tell unless I pick the colours myself.

Couturej: I don't mix greys with yellow for that reason because I'm going to go to green anyway. So I might as well just do it with primaries and complements.

I don't have a grey so I made my own with Golden, and then mixed it with Hansa Yellow, this is what happened:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/204698-grey+yellowsssssssss.JPG

Einion
04-06-2011, 03:03 PM
All I know is that if I lower the value of yellow it turns a dull olive green, not brown. This is in RGB additive, where yellow is equal parts of R and G but no B. If I lower the saturation to the point where the green goes away, it just turns grey, not brown. In RGB additive I don't see how to get brown from yellow by monkeying around with value and saturation.
Exactly. And this reflects the underlying colour principle (separate from any problems to do with the method of generating the colours).


Consider yellow as a band colour extending over a range of wavelengths on the colour spectrum. It goes from near orange on one side to near green on the other.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif

Then, when darkening the yellow, dropping the value not the chroma, it will go green if it has a green component, and it will go brown if it has orange.
Do you not see the yellows on the left column in post #22 as greenish?

BTW, it's important to mention that you can't lower the value of many yellows without a drop in chroma - for the most brilliant colours any drop in value goes hand in hand with a reduction in chroma.

If the yellow is absolutely neutral between its spectral neighbours then it should remain yellow i.e., neither green nor brown.
It does, but the issue is really about whether it still looks like it.


There were no stipulations about what colors would be used to make the resulting desaturated yellow.
The word "makes" implies to me that she is asking about physically mixing a color. Since this question does not specify how a yellow is desaturated, my answers had to do only with physically mixing a desaturated yellow.
The discussion on the previous page doesn't reflect this Sid, it centred on colour appearance. We can certainly fold in mixing issues (and there are plenty surrounding yellows!) but it's not what most of the above has been about.

Anyway, if we want to start again with defining terms desaturated should mean a drop in saturation only... in the same way that lighten isn't assumed to mean any change in hue.

Einion

Einion
04-06-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't have a grey so I made my own with Golden, and then mixed it with Hansa Yellow, this is what happened:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/204698-grey+yellowsssssssss.JPG
Thanks for that, clearly illustrates the hue shifts that can occur when mixing in neutral greys (something which tends to be understated).

In case anyone is wondering or can't check: this is an actual shift in hue towards green, not an optical illusion.

Einion

sidbledsoe
04-06-2011, 04:26 PM
There were no stipulations about what colors would be used to make the resulting desaturated yellow.
The word "makes" implies to me that she is asking about physically mixing a color. Since this question does not specify how a yellow is desaturated, my answers had to do only with physically mixing a desaturated yellow.I did try to relate this to my postings only, it just qualifies my answers and is the setup for what follows, which is what I am interested in.
Let's say that I mix a color from a saturated yellow that is an exact match with yellow ochre, etc.
I have no problem with the example charts or the fact that when yellow is desaturated by that method, that it will look green on it's way to grey and it will not look brown. But I am not asking about that particular area of the discussion.

So let me rephrase this question,
"Is a yellow ochre that is yellow, a desaturated yellow or isn't it?"
(and raw umber while it is up there)
That is why I was posting the examples by handprint that identify it as just that, an unsaturated yellow. Here is the graphic. The angle is yellow for all of these yellow ochres.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/112587-earthj.gif

oddman99
04-06-2011, 05:10 PM
Einion, in your Post #22 I definitely see the green in the leftmost column. But, do you not see any brown in the adjacent column? My contention is that somewhere between the two columns could be one transitioning from brown to green. You just have to find the right yellow with which to build it.

As to your BTW, right on! I wasn't implying otherwise. I was posting while looking at some Munsell charts and merely wanted to make clear that I was scanning down the value columns and not across the chroma rows.

So, to answer the original question, a desaturated yellow will go to either green or brown depending on what colour the yellow is. Alas, we must recognize it and live with it.

couturej
04-06-2011, 06:30 PM
I see the shift in hue in Goldeelocks swatches and checking my grayed swatches I'm seeing a similar shift that I couldn't see before. Thank you for posting that example Goldeelocks! Well I guess applying what should happen to painting doesn't always pan out. I wonder what range of yellows are affected like this.

So olive is the Visual Complement to Mid Blue.

sidbledsoe
04-06-2011, 07:13 PM
So, to answer the original question, a desaturated yellow will go to either green or brown depending on what colour the yellow is. Alas, we must recognize it and live with it.
Yes, that is I was thinking also, but there is more to it.
If you look at that yellow angle in the diagram I posted, you go in a straight line from hansa yellow deep to yellow ochre, through raw umber, then on to black (or 0). It is a straight line, one hue, but mixing with just black won't take you straight there, it'll swing the hue to green. Yellow ochre and black makes for some very useful greens.

bobc100
04-06-2011, 10:49 PM
Back to the thread title specifically, one of the take-home messages here is that dull yellows can look greenish, that's indisputable, but that doesn't make them greens. They merely appear to be green; now you can choose to consider them as greens if you wish but to be consistent shouldn't you then class all illusory colours as examples of the colour they only appear to be but then with regards to the image posted by Goldeelocks you say In case anyone is wondering or can't check: this is an actual shift in hue towards green, not an optical illusion. On the right side, the hue angle varies from about 55 to 68 throughout, although it is mostly between 63 and 65 in most of the center. Here's what it looks like in comparison to spot of desaturated hue angle 60, which is what we usually call a pure yellow:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/98214-greenoryellow.jpg

From an artist's point of view, does it really make sense to claim that the one on the left is yellow and the one on the right green?

Richard Saylor
04-07-2011, 12:35 AM
.....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Apr-2011/98214-greenoryellow.jpg

From an artist's point of view, does it really make sense to claim that the one on the left is yellow and the one on the right green?If the hue angle is kept constant, there is no hue shift. This is by definition. One of your examples may be yellow, the other green. Just because the S, M, and L cones register the two colors as the same hue does not mean that, in fact, they are. However, from an an artist's point of view, it makes no difference.

Einion
04-07-2011, 03:16 AM
I have no problem with the example charts or the fact that when yellow is desaturated by that method, that it will look green on it's way to grey and it will not look brown.
It's not 'a method', it's just showing what yellow looks like at a given value and chroma*. Same deal with the Munsell books as I'm sure you know now - there's no given or implied mixing method to get to any of the lower-chroma colour chips, they're merely being shown, and they look the colour they look.

*Within technical limits.

Let me rephrase the question, "is a yellow ochre a desaturated yellow or is it not?"
You don't need to rephrase the question Sid, it's quite clear. Of course Yellow Ochres are yellow.

I think I finally saw the difficulty here, I believe you read "dull yellows can look greenish" too broadly. Like I said in my very first sentence in this thread, how brown or green a desaturated yellow looks depends quite a bit on the exact hue, how desaturated it is, as well as the value. Yellow Ochre paints typically don't look greenish because their hue is more towards orange and/or they're not low enough in chroma.


Einion, in your Post #22 I definitely see the green in the leftmost column. But, do you not see any brown in the adjacent column?
Getting browner, sure. Although even the third column is more akin to an olive drab colour. As I said, where you wouldn't any longer see something as brown is a matter of individual perception; but by definition all true browns are outside the zone of yellows.


From an artist's point of view, does it really make sense to claim that the one on the left is yellow and the one on the right green?
They're both yellows; who said the one on the right was green?

Einion

bobc100
04-07-2011, 08:28 AM
They're both yellows; who said the one on the right was green? Apparently it was somebody masquerading as you:
In case anyone is wondering or can't check: this is an actual shift in hue towards green, not an optical illusion.

sidbledsoe
04-07-2011, 10:00 AM
You don't need to rephrase the question Sid, it's quite clear. Of course Yellow Ochres are yellow.Einion
The question assumes that it is a yellow shade of yellow ochre. Fact is,
"Oil paints and watercolors using PY42 and PY43 exist in almost any shade of yellow, orange, red and violet brown to green brown."
But the question was, "Is it a desaturated yellow". I wanted to know if there was agreement that it is considered to be desaturated.
But yes, I do think it is usually a desaturated yellow. Generally I think it is a deep yellow, as we most commonly refer to a yellow ochre.
You can mix this yellow ochre "color" from just using the primaries. That means you can start with a saturated yellow (lets say that it is the same hue angle as your yellow ochre target) and mix with a red/magenta and a blue/cyan to get this desaturated yellow color. In the process of doing so, you will lower the saturation and the value of the starting yellow yet not change the hue angle.
by definition all true browns are outside the zone of yellows.
I don't really dispute this at all but names are so fickle and loosely used, I would like to know where true browns are defined, since the references to yellowish or even greenish browns (even lavender browns) are out there everywhere, including color theory texts like B&YDMG.
from wiki for brown:
"As a color of low intensity, brown is a tertiary color: a mix of the three subtractive primary colors is brown if the cyan content is low. Brown exists as a color perception only in the presence of a brighter color contrast: yellow, orange, red, or rose objects are still perceived as such if the general illumination level is low"

couturej
04-07-2011, 10:17 AM
I did this with the aid of my pantone CMYK and Formula Guide fandecks compared to my mixed colors. 48-100-100 is Imidazolone Yellow, 52-100-99 is Imidazolone Yellow + White, 53-88-98 is Imidazolone Yellow + more white, 57-70-100 is Imidazolone Yellow + more white, 58-73-79 is Imidazolone Yellow + Golden Acrylic Neutral Grey 8, 59-75-56 is Imidazolone Yellow + Golden Acrylic Neutral Grey 6, 59-80-42 is Imidazolone Yellow + Golden Acrylic Neutral Grey 5.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/../Community/images/07-Apr-2011/84697-Imadozolone_yellow.jpg

So my question is do you think it might be that it's the undertone that is more important then the masstone when mixing colors? If it's the undertone these results would make much more sense.

couturej
04-07-2011, 11:39 AM
Sid, I don't know if this will help at all but here's every step in the area of the spectrum that you're talking about. Yellow Ochre from what I can see with my paints comes in many flavors. Some of the changes will be almost indistinguishable from color to color and that's how it should be. Very gradual changes.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Apr-2011/84697-Color_cr.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Apr-2011/84697-Color_cr2.jpg

sidbledsoe
04-07-2011, 01:48 PM
Yes Janet, that is well in the range of yellow ochres, thanks. That shows the range (visually speaking) going from orange/brown, to brown, to greenish brown, to green for the desaturated colors. The respective saturated source colors go from lemon yellow at the bottom up to what I would call an orange for the top two or three.

bobc100
04-07-2011, 02:10 PM
Is there a reason why this discussion seems to be about saturation rather than brightness? It seems clear from the charts posted here that the shift in perceived hue from yellow to olive-green is the result of a reduction in value or brightness, not saturation or chroma. This is easy enough to see in Photoshop. Reduce the saturation without reducing brightness and yellow is still yellow. Reduce the brightness without reducing saturation and it quickly becomes olive green.

In the dimensions of color (http://www.huevaluechroma.com/093.php) website posted by Sid, they present a uniform saturation series, which means that hue and saturation stays the same and only brightness changes. In an RGB system, this means maintaining a constant ratio R:G:B. According to the website, this represents "a surface of a single colour under different amounts of illumination" because the balance of wavelengths hasn't changed.

If this is true, then why don't we ever see green in the shadows cast on yellow objects? Why do my yellow paint swatches still look yellow when I take them into a darkened room? It seems unlikely that there is always something in the reflected light driving it back from green to yellow. It's possible, of course, that we actually do see green but our brain tells us yellow because of the context. I know that many browns don't look brown if there isn't any brighter color to compare them to. Still, the perceived shift I see on my monitor and on the color charts is so apparent, it seems strange that I'm never aware of it in any other situation.

So do we really know that a reduction in illumination, under ideal conditions, always maintains the same balance of wavelengths? And if it does, are we certain that if two different spectra create the same color, then any multiples of those two spectra (ie. the same balance of wavelengths) will also create the same color? If we had a pure yellow light (a narrow band of yellow wavelengths only), would this also start to look olive-green if we reduced the brightness of it (or would it look olive-green from the very start since such a narrow band would not have much brightness to begin with)?

Goldeelocks
04-07-2011, 02:30 PM
In the dimensions of color (http://www.huevaluechroma.com/093.php) website posted by Sid, they present a uniform saturation series, which means that hue and saturation stays the same and only brightness changes.
I only know that I tend to disagree with the books that say that shadows have the complement of the local color, or blue or warm or cool, or whatever they say, because under white neon or LED lighting they don't. They're just a lower brightness color of the local colour.

anyway, I cut out a piece..

The saturation of a really dark color is so hard to make a call on for me, all colors in shadow seem to lose part of their punch.

In subtractive mixing you can't lower the value and not lower the saturation through primaries.

Hhow would you make a high saturation but really dark color..I don't know how. If you use the complements to darken you lower the saturation to 0 anyway. If you mix a black you do the same thing, it's just the same thing as using complements.

When I go color picking in PS or Painter, the area with very dark Low saturation and very dark High saturation is a tiny window of choice, it's basically the same thing. I can almost not distinguish a high from a low saturation dark color, so the amount of difference in saturation, or what I perceive as saturation gets smaller the higher or lower you go from max saturation of any hue.

couturej
04-07-2011, 02:42 PM
bobc100, I have the perfect pic to show that yes the shadow goes to "olive" on a yellow object. If the local color of the object happens to be a yellow that is around 60 degrees in HSB. IMO from observation shadows become cooler and lite areas become warmer in warm light. (I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last time) Einion mentioned earlier that we should keep shadow and light for another thread and I'm looking forward to learning more. I did download a bunch of copyright free photos like this one with uniform color and simple subjects preparing for it.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Apr-2011/84697-1281319_flower_pot_2.jpg

couturej
04-07-2011, 02:55 PM
If you use a black, white or gray to mix with your colors you're most of the time changing the value and chroma of a color unless you're using 2 colors of the same value then only the chroma would be affected. I your mixing 2 colors with the same chroma but different values then the Value would change not the chroma.

Goldeelocks
04-07-2011, 03:02 PM
If you use a black, white or gray to mix with your colors you're most of the time changing the value and chroma of a color unless you're using 2 colors of the same value then only the chroma would be affected.
agree^^


I your mixing 2 colors with the same chroma but different values then the Value would change not the chroma.
That can't be right though. Complements can have the same chroma and different values and they definitely change the chroma of each other.

A firetruck red will have it's chroma lowered if you mix it with a bright Pthalo green for example.

couturej
04-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Here's my file of 60 degrees HSB a-la-munsell. Easier to grasp chroma and value but difficult to create so as a result I make the charts that I posted earlier for HSB. I prefer more chroma steps then Munsell offers and Hue in general in HSB seem more accurate to "me".

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Apr-2011/84697-60_Mid_Yellow.jpg

couturej
04-07-2011, 03:08 PM
Thank you Goldeelocks for the correction I was just talking within the same hue chart for chroma and value.

Goldeelocks
04-07-2011, 03:10 PM
ah, gotcha

Einion
04-07-2011, 03:59 PM
Apparently it was somebody masquerading as you:
Negatory ;)

Here, let me help:
In case anyone is wondering or can't check: this is an actual shift in hue towards green, not an optical illusion.
Towards green means exactly what the words say Bob. If I'd meant shifted to green I would have written that.


But yes, I do think it is usually a desaturated yellow. Generally I think it is a deep yellow, as we most commonly refer to a yellow ochre.
Yes, that appears to be most common. Deep yellow = orange-yellow BTW, like I clarified above under the sampled pic of the bananas.

I don't really dispute this at all but names are so fickle and loosely used, I would like to know where true browns are defined, since the references to yellowish or even greenish browns (even lavender browns) are out there everywhere...
Okay, here's one from Handprint:
Even so, artists should learn the correct hue designations for dull colors. "Brown" for example is technically a near neutral, dark valued orange with a dominant wavelength around 610 nm; "olive" is an dull, mid valued yellow with a dominant wavelength around 570 nm. You will never be comfortable describing your coffee as dark orange and your martini olive as dark yellow, but that is what they are; and accurately recognizing the hue of any surface color will help you to mix that color using a color wheel and to understand how the color is likely to change appearance under different types of lighting or from light to shade.
The page that the earth pigments map is taken from also has a little more detail on specific colour definitions.

I would strongly caution anybody to take terms like "violet brown" with a pinch of salt. As has been mentioned here in Colour Theory numerous times, even the red earths that look slightly violet - the classic example being Mars Violet - are by no means violet in hue. They're actually not even magenta in hue; they're just reds at a specific value and chroma which gives a violet-like appearance.


So my question is do you think it might be that it's the undertone that is more important then the masstone when mixing colors? If it's the undertone these results would make much more sense.
It's arguably impossible to say what factor is most important. But certainly in any mixture of pigments all of them play a part. In what could probably be thought of as the simplest of mixes, tints, results vary enormously even only with different versions of the white, which might seem at first glance to be the colour that's bringing the least to the table.


I only know that I tend to disagree with the books that say that shadows have the complement of the local color, or blue or warm or cool, or whatever they say, because under white neon or LED lighting they don't. They're just a lower brightness color of the local colour.
Exactly http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Aug-2003/3842-thumbsup.gif Feel proud, because it's amazing just how many artists can't acknowledge this.

Mod note: now if we could skip over this topic here please, like I referred to above I don't want to tackle that in this thread.

Einion

couturej
04-08-2011, 09:06 AM
Thank you Einion and everyone else for all your help! It was a wonderful learning experience.

Moving on to Light and Shadow. :)

sidbledsoe
04-08-2011, 06:01 PM
"Brown" for example is technically a near neutral, dark valued orange
Even though Bruce says this (also, the brown term is in quotes), he himself freely uses terms such as greyish, yellow, and even greenish brown in describing raw sienna for instance in these examples,
from handprint (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watere.html);
This earth color varies substantially across manufacturers; some paints are a pale yellow trivially different from yellow ochre (PY43), while others are a grayish brown. Daniel Smith monte amiata natural sienna is a warm mid valued yellow brown, my favorite single pigment example of the raw sienna color, with a slight tendency to darken in masstone. MaimeriBlu raw sienna is a rich color that is uncharacteristically staining; either it is a finely divided pigment or a synthetic organic yellow has been added. The Rembrandt raw sienna is also warm and light. Other single pigment brands of raw sienna are various shades of brown — to my taste too brown to be a good raw sienna. These include a greenish dark brown close to a yellow ochre (Rowney Artists and, darker still, M. Graham), a warm light brown (Daniel Smith and DaVinci), a toffee brown (Utrecht, still a lovely color full strength), a middle grayish brown (Old Holland).
(now yellow ochre is greenish, not orange)

I would strongly caution anybody to take terms like "violet brown" with a pinch of salt
Again, in handprint (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color14.html) Bruce also uses that term, quoted from that linked page:
The mixture of magenta and green (G) is very close to the center of the wheel, so it will have a very low saturation and will appear to be a violet brown.

Einion
04-11-2011, 03:50 PM
"Brown" for example is technically a near neutral, dark valued orange
Even though Bruce says this (also, the brown term is in quotes), he himself freely uses terms such as greyish, yellow, and even greenish brown in describing raw sienna for instance in these examples,
from handprint (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watere.html);
I'm not sure what your point is here Sid, of course browns can lean towards other adjacent colour areas. Has anything suggested otherwise?

I would strongly caution anybody to take terms like "violet brown" with a pinch of salt
Again, in handprint (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color14.html) Bruce also uses that term, quoted from that linked page:
My point was in the explanation that followed on from the quoted section - to wit, that it's another illusory colour thing, not about hue, relating to a lot of what we've talked about above.

For anyone interested who hasn't already looked at the link, have a think for yourself about what the specifics of something that looks "violet brown" - particularly the hue, but the value and the chroma also - then click on the link and scroll upwards to the diagram.

Einion

sidbledsoe
04-11-2011, 11:15 PM
I'm not sure what your point is here Sid, of course browns can lean towards other adjacent colour areas. Einion
I understand now, that is all I wanted to confirm. I was getting the impression that it would be wrong to use a term such as yellow brown.
Has it been suggested otherwise? I thought so, after I said yellow ochre or raw umber was a desaturated yellow (I am assuming that I should have said yellow orange)
as handprint also says
(raw umber) is a transparent, dark valued, grayish or greenish (very dull) earth brown close to the hue of yellow ochre (yellow orange).
(btw, here he says the hue is grayish or greenish, yet it is close to yellow orange, all at the same time!)
And you had said:
Raw Umber which can be loosely called "a brown" but that doesn't mean it's actually brown
unless it is really yellow orange,..that looks greyish or greenish, I am ok now,
not confused,... I think.

Einion
04-12-2011, 03:34 PM
I understand now, that is all I wanted to confirm. I was getting the impression that it would be wrong to use a term such as yellow brown.
Well colour-description language isn't particularly precise unless using pre-defined terms and in general parlance it's quite idiosyncratic as we've established very nicely in this and other threads.

In terms of that type of colour specifically, if you imagine a colour spot that falls somewhere between a dull yellow and a lighter-valued brown then yellowish brown or brownish yellow seem to be acceptable ways of describing it to me. If we went darker I think you'd end up with the possibility of having to use greenish brown because the yellows adjacent to brown in that zone look greenish (although the same colour could be described variously, e.g. olive drab).

Has it been suggested otherwise? I thought so, after I said yellow ochre or raw umber was a desaturated yellow (I am assuming that I should have said yellow orange)
as handprint also says
How finely you 'slice the pie' is partly a matter of need as well as individual use*. Broadly speaking I'd say orange-yellow is enough to give the right idea (orange-yellow / deep yellow still being a yellow). If a more-detailed hue description would help clarify the exact colour area being discussed it probably should be used, as in the finer spacing in the full Munsell book compared with the student one for example.

*Is it: yellow ... orange ... red?
Or: yellow ... orange-yellow ... yellow-orange ... orange ... red-orange ... scarlet ... red?

Which degree of division is necessary depends on the situation but how precise one chooses to be is obviously a matter of personal motivation (and knowledge) as well as maybe typing speed!

(raw umber) is a transparent, dark valued, grayish or greenish (very dull) earth brown close to the hue of yellow ochre (yellow orange).
(btw, here he says the hue is grayish or greenish, yet it is close to yellow orange, all at the same time!)
...
unless it is really yellow orange,..that looks greyish or greenish, I am ok now,
not confused,... I think.
Colour v. hue descriptions - greyish or greenish aren't hue descriptions here (greyish always describes colour only of course).

Einion