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Flame Lily
05-19-2008, 09:18 PM
Which colors do we choose?
How do we mix colors to get interesting grays or darker values?
How do we avoid getting muddy mixes?

Let's find out what our colors can do, discovering the relationships and properties of colors while we take a trip around the color wheel.

There is no easy way to do this, we each have to practice and find out how to make the right choices on our own – we know that two or more of us could draw the same subject and end up using completely different color combinations. Atmosphere, lighting, surrounding objects etc., these and more determine the colors in our lights and darks.

Most color mixing problems come from over mixing and or not understanding the relationships between colors.

There are plenty of color combinations to explore.
Bare in mind many of us use a variety of brands – so please try list the colors and brands you are using when you join in.

Before you begin, if you're completely new to this, do some research on color theory, get some books from your local library or search info on the Internet or even closer still - do a search through the Colored Pencil Library here or other places on WetCanvas.
Study the terminology and read about the science behind it all. I'm not an expert, I'm learning along with you, I have done a lot of studies with my pencils and plenty of reading and I would recommend every beginner start by making a color wheel and understanding the history behind it.
Throughout the thread I hope we do discuss the various aspects and properties of color and color theory etc., but I just don't want to spend too much time developing a long introductory trying to cover every detail in one post.

Here is one of a few color wheel's I've made over the last few years.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-FlameLily_CP_Color_Wheel.jpg

Go ahead – make one too! While you're at it, I'd recommend starting a notebook or journal to record your color mixing discoveries

Now let's take that trip around the color wheel...

Beginning with YELLOW since it's at the top of the color wheel and the lightest in value. First trying a bunch of different color combinations using yellow, how light and dark can we go with yellow? I'll do some value scales later, first I want to share some swatches I've made.
Then I plan on trying some sketches or drawings, using the combinations I come up with.

Yellow does not have quite as much of a value range as other colors, but you can significantly darken your yellows in a variety of ways.

You'll notice throughout this thread that I will not be 'avoiding' fugitive colors just yet – I do think serious colored pencil artists must take light fastness seriously, but I also think that in the process of learning about color theory and color awareness, we should understand how to mix color properly in order to work with a limited palette and or specifically a LIGHT FAST (also therefore limited) palette (?) That may not necessarily be the right approach, perhaps one should just throw out those fugitive colors and only learn to work with the more light fast ones... but I can not deny, for me, over the past few years playing with ALL my pencils and learning what you can do with the various colors has been fun and rewarding.

Here are a few examples, I've used all Prismacolors for these – I will try other brands and share how they compare when I have some time, I am going to spend a long time on ''yellows'' – everyone else joining in is welcome to go faster, but I'm going to take my time and try cover each color thoroughly.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-YellowCombination01.jpg
1) To go darker and warmer with yellows, I often go this route, sometimes skipping some of the middle colors, but these all help for a smooth gradual change in a large area.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-YellowCombination02.jpg
2) This is a common combination with flowers or trees etc., usually I use 'True Blue' instead of True Green, magic happens when you add Violet in the mix and unfortunately it doesn't translate well in the photograph of this swatch. Prismacolor's Dark Green could probably be thrown in, but the Indigo Blue does a nice job for darks.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-YellowCombination03.jpg
3) Instead of using Violet, the complementary color to Yellow, the Dahlia Purple which is a little warmer and a little brighter, makes for a more livelier gray, perfect for shadowy areas, the Black Grape really helps for strengthening the darkest areas.

.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-YellowCombination04.jpg
4) Before studying color theory or understanding how complementary colors worked, I tended to almost always go this route (as with #1), seemed the most logical to me. Sometimes it is called for obviously, depending on the subject - great for sunset scenes for example. I may use Tuscan Red to go even darker.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-YellowCombination05.jpg
5) Using just the (complementary) color directly opposite to Yellow on the color wheel. If you were to mix the exact same amount of Yellow with Violet, you ought to get a true neutral. A beautiful colored gray is produced when there is much less of the Violet as there is of Yellow. It doesn't show quite as well in the photo, but in the top right and or lower left of this square example, I see a really lovely grayed yellow.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-YellowCombination06.jpg
6) This combination is simply gorgeous off-screen. Mixed just the right amounts in the top left corner to get a very handsome gray. Does not translate quite as well in the photo - so you've GOT to try this one at home. It's so attractive to see the three colors shine through each other and make an excellent dark for yellow.
In the top right the Blue Violet is mixed with the Yellow and in the bottom left the Mulberry is mixed with Yellow.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-May-2008/51101-YellowCombination07.jpg
7) So far this is my favorite, it is actually more of a reddish brown in the top left corner, a stunning warm neutral - I love it, the Chartreuse shines through the brown - really lovely, I'll be using this mix of colors a lot, mostly because I love an 'earthy' palette.

I've started a lemon drawing to incorporate all of these mixes. Will try to post it soon when it's finished, I also plan on trying more mixes with other brands and watercolor pencils. If you wish to try this along with me, please join in and share your thoughts.

Lucio
05-20-2008, 12:23 AM
Great article Liesl !
Thank you for the hard work :thumbsup:

Elen
05-20-2008, 04:32 AM
HURRRAY !!!! You did it, you really did it ! :clap::clap::clap: Flame Lily, it`s just GREAT ,thank you so much for doing this :clap: A lot of work here !
You are the greatest ! I`m going to learn it by heart. :)
This is the first thread I rated. :thumbsup:

pinkrybns
05-20-2008, 05:55 AM
Good thread Liesl and thank you for correctly spelling complementary !

:)
Judy

ocmd123
05-20-2008, 07:08 AM
Thanks for putting this together, Liesl! I will do some playing with color and see what I can come up with to contribute!

Flame Lily
05-20-2008, 12:29 PM
Aw, thanks for the compliments :)
(Hehe, Judy, I thought of you the first few times I wrote "Complementary" for this)

I drew a lemon from life, it's not great, it's not technically well done and I could nit pick it to death with all sorts of issues, cast shadow is too strong etc., ... BUT - I mainly wanted to try using yellows and colors that complement them. I used colors from those tests I did above. It's on Pastelbord, and unfamiliar surface for me.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-May-2008/51101-LJH_Lemon_Col_Awareness2.jpg

On the left of the lemon, I used the combination #2 above, Prismacolors - Canary Yellow, True Green, Violet and Indigo Blue.
On the top right of the lemon the double complementary scheme from #7 and on the lower right shadow on the lemon I used combination of colors from #3 - Greyed Lavender and Dahlia Purple.
For the cast shadow (that I went a bit overboard with) is with the colors from the double complementary test as well, lots of Mulberry (& too much Black Grape). In the background at the top I used very little Mulberry but a lot of Blue Violet over Canary Yellow. Basically the entire study had a Canary Yellow base.

At least now, when I want to tackle 'lemons' in the future, I'll know a few color combinations to try. I want to do some more lemons but I need to go buy some that are a bit prettier than the ones I have right now. The next thing I want to do is pick a photo from the RIL here at WC and do a part of it and show a value scale for yellow perhaps.

Flame Lily
05-20-2008, 12:35 PM
I discovered a problem I've been having with my new Photoshop and why it's been changing colors when I upload to the web, I'm a klutz and thought it was a problem with WC! Sorry WC! :eek: I'm posting this link for anyone who might be having the same issues I've been having, I've learned I need to recalibrate my monitor on my IMac as well. Color Shifts on the World Wide Web (http://www.gballard.net/psd/saveforwebshift.html).

I re-uploaded the lemon image, I will try and repost those color swatches from above as well and see if they come out better. (Will try to get to that later today)

Oh I took a couple of photo's between drawing ... you can see the ugly little lemon I had to work with :lol:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-May-2008/51101-LJH_Lemon_Wip_Col_Aware.jpg

Elen
05-20-2008, 01:23 PM
Hi, Flame Lily ! This is a real treat ! Much better ,than chocolate! :lol:

If your lemon is not perfect,than I don`t know what is,I still have a loooong way to go to produce something like this !
The thing,which struck me - I never even imagined,that the different parts of lemon (in this case) require so many different combinations of pencils - I would never thought of using different colour combinations on one subject !
This shows,how important it is - to learn not only the theory,but also see,how one could apply the theory to the parctice !
I am impressed even more,than before and I am so happy,that you are sharing it ! It`s real treasure ! :thumbsup:
Unfortunately,I don`t have Prismacolors,but as soon, as I`ll match my F-C to the colours you mention in your colour charts,I`ll try to draw a lemon too (if you don`t mind) I just bought 4 of them for this purpose !

Flame Lily
05-20-2008, 01:39 PM
((Elen)) You're so kind! You know your exuberance makes me smile because you have the same `spirit` (if you will) as I feel when it comes to CP's. LOL, it's like we just can't get enough and if we're not careful, we could become cannibals and EAT out PENCILS out of sheer joy for them :lol: :lol:

Oh goodie! I'm glad you bought some lemons, I must get out of the house soon and go shop for some too, problem is the shop I know that will sell beautiful gigantic lemons possibly with leaves still attached is a far drive from here.

Now, actually, one doesn't need to use as many colors as I did in my lemon - I only did that because I wanted to use them all on purpose in various parts to see which color combinations I liked best. As it turns out... I love them all. I'm already looking forward to getting to ''yellow-green'' on the color wheel, because I know which combination I'd love to do when drawing a "Lime" :D

Don't worry about not having Prismacolors, you don't have to have them. I don't have but a few FC's - so unfortunately I wouldn't be able to tell you which colors to use. Make some swatches of colors on a separate paper if you want to and test color combinations before working on the real thing.

I know I'm slow... but soon enough I plan to use the other brands of pencils I have too... possibly drawing several lemons with various shades and color combinations.

Elen
05-20-2008, 02:02 PM
((Elen)) You're so kind! You know your exuberance makes me smile because you have the same `spirit` (if you will) as I feel when it comes to CP's. LOL, it's like we just can't get enough and if we're not careful, we could become cannibals and EAT out PENCILS out of sheer joy for them :lol: :lol:


Exactly ! My husband says,when there`s talk about CPs,I become insane.. :lol: I guess,it means I am deeply hooked ! :evil:

DrDebby
05-20-2008, 09:18 PM
Oh, thank you. This is great information. Sometimes, I just don't know what color to choose. Please continue.

TessDB
05-21-2008, 07:38 AM
Liesl, Thank you for posting this!

You've set the lesson out in a *great* format. Looking forward to the next installment!

Rosemary

Andi Rebirth
05-21-2008, 07:56 AM
This is i agreat lesson, really helps to see how they work together, Thanks for all your hard work, Andi

pinkrybns
05-21-2008, 03:36 PM
I'm making this a Sticky since it's an ongoing thing and so anyone can find it.
Thanks again Liesl. ( yes it will go in the Library as soon as you get further along with it).

Judy

Mary Woodul
05-21-2008, 04:05 PM
Thank you Liesl, this one I need to read thoroughly.:thumbsup:

Flame Lily
05-21-2008, 06:00 PM
I'm really glad you all are grateful for the thread - makes me smile, mostly because I'm happy to share and learn together with others. But now, if you're new to this... don't make me do it all by myself, what can YOU do with yellow? Hmmm?
The very best way to get to know your pencils and what the colors can do is to get stuck in and try EVERYTHING you can, even lots of mistakes (I make more of those than anything else) :thumbsup:
While I'm at it, I'm trying papers and surfaces I don't usually use, just to see what I can do with them as well.

There are some fantastic photo's with yellow subjects in the Reference Image Library here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/). For this study I'm using a really lovely photo by madmum "Black Eyed Susan" (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=78744&si=black%20susan&what=allfields). You could use it too if you want to try this.

Here's a tip:
If you have trouble identifying colors or values in your photo - use your photo or paint program to 'pick out' the colors. You probably have a color picker or eyedropper to do that. Just click on the part of your photo with the eyedropper tool to select a color and then switch to your paint brush or brush tool and paint a swatch to see the color more easily, then match your pencils as best you can to those colors, remembering to use interesting combinations to get the final color. Here's an example -

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-May-2008/51101-black_eyed_susan_colorpicker.jpg

Here is my attempt at the petal I focused on (Uses Prismacolors listed above. On Bristol smooth > 300 series, doesn't take very many layers) -

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-May-2008/51101-black_eyed_susan_study.jpg

Here's another tip:
This is something that really helped me when I first started using CP's to see colors in photographs that I was drawing from.
If you magnify the area on the photograph that you want to draw, you can see colors that you may not have noticed before.

Like this magnified about 3000%

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-May-2008/51101-black_eyed_susan_magnified.jpg

Looking at it like this I can see purplish brown in the darks.

When I magnify the lower part of the petal, I can see very faint grayed greens mixed with the yellow for example.

*** Also here's just an extra push to practice every now and then drawing 'from life' - it really does help with color awareness because you can see colors much more easily when they are right in front of your eyes. Photographs change colors and flatten or combine colors - drawing from life for occasional studies thereby help in training yourself to SEE the colors better. If you're new here and want to do that for practice, check out the thread on sketching from life :) [Uh, yeah, I know, I need to do this more often myself.]

OK, I still really want to get to some value scales done for yellow - soon.

AngelaF
05-22-2008, 08:05 AM
Liesl, thank you for all of this great information. I am enjoying looking at your website and blog after reading this also. Angela

Elen
05-22-2008, 04:50 PM
I know,it`s looking not so well... :lol: But "in person "it`s a little bit better ,scan lightened a drawing a bit,especially,lower part of it.
I understood,that I don`t really know, how to draw - do I have to fill all lemon in yellow,and then add different colours ? Or do I have to leave white space,where the other colour will come in ? I couldn`t fit in so many combinations,and cannot say in which area which colour combination was used - my process of drawing was kind of hectic. :D I`d like to add more dimension into a lemon,but I killed the paper ,so it become imposiible.
P.S.: Forgot to mention,this was drawn from life . :)

Flame Lily
05-23-2008, 11:48 AM
Elen :) I think you did very well. It is difficult sometimes to photograph or scan in a way to give a drawing justice.
This lemon is really impressive drawn from life! :thumbsup:
do I have to fill all lemon in yellow,and then add different colours ? Or do I have to leave white space,where the other colour will come in ?There's no clear cut way to do it, everyone works differently - but, I would in this case also - cover the paper with yellow first, being careful not to fill up the tooth of the paper, because you want to be able to add layers on top. Then add these other colors on top depending on the colors you see on your lemon. Also in area's where you want to go really dark - start with just a little yellow because the yellow will always brighten whatever colors you add. Also, anywhere you have a white highlight, you'll want to leave that area white (or go really easy on the yellow) because once you put yellow down you'll have a hard time lifting it back up again.

I couldn`t fit in so many combinations,and cannot say in which area which colour combination was used - my process of drawing was kind of hectic. :DYou did a fine job, I can see where you added other colors to the yellow, for more definition you can just go a bit darker in the same areas where you already went slightly darker. Actually though, I think the lemon looks good, to make it stand out more, you could darken the background even more and add a bit more darks on the cast shadow. I like how you have soft edges around the lemon and that it is not outlined, looks really good the way you did that.
Also, with time and practice, eventually you will remember which colors you used, just by looking at them - it gets really exciting when you can reach that point, it'll all become automatic after a while.

I have noticed that with each one of these drawings you're getting better and better!

I bought some lemons yesterday, I really hope to get to some drawings this afternoon after seeing the good job you did, I'm very anxious to grab the watercolor pencils and give them a whirl! It was quite a challenge to find a nice looking lemon by the way, with good shape and color, they're not extremely pretty are they? LOL Perhaps I should cut one up and draw the inside... hmmmm.

Flame Lily
05-23-2008, 11:54 AM
Thank you Angela, Mary & all :) I am learning SO much by doing this.

-

Here are the updated images (from post #1):

After adjusting a setting in Photoshop, these look a lot better now, closer to how they look on my paper. I guess it would depend on the kind of Monitor everyone has - hopefully though for those of you who have a real bright one, these might be more helpful.

1) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow01.jpg 2) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow02.jpg 3) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow03.jpg


4) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow04.jpg 5) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow05.jpg

6) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow06.jpg 7) http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow07.jpg

Flame Lily
05-23-2008, 02:04 PM
How dark is dark yellow?

Dark yellow... kind of an oxymoron isn't it? An attempt at a 'value scale' for yellow will show you how very difficult it is - yellow simply is not or does not go very dark.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-May-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow_Value_Scale.jpg

My meager attempt here shows that there isn't much change or difference in value - sure on the last step there (using Prismacolor's Yellow Ochre with Canary Yellow) shows a difference between itself and the first few steps. But, is that last one 'really' yellow? Once you try to go darker and darker the color moves more and more 'away' from yellow - at least from everything I've tried anyway.

CRYork
05-23-2008, 05:57 PM
I am just now reading this thread....it is really very helpful. I have never thought much about what color I pick up. I just grab what color I think will work and just keep laying one color on top of another until it seems right. Now, maybe I can add method to my madness! And, now, I really want to draw a lemon!!!:)

Thanks, Flame Lily!

Char

dhara
05-24-2008, 10:11 AM
I discovered a problem I've been having with my new Photoshop and why it's been changing colors when I upload to the web, I'm a klutz and thought it was a problem with WC! Sorry WC! :eek: I'm posting this link for anyone who might be having the same issues I've been having, I've learned I need to recalibrate my monitor on my IMac as well.

I am a mac user as well, but don't calibrate the monitor at least not for web, only when i need to print images high quality for press. But for web images these is not much need since these images need to be RGB any way. The colorspaces of mac monitors are already pretty good i found.

When using photoshop, it is important after you worked on your image and want to publish it on the web, that you change the colorspace in the image to sRGB. Best way to save images you want to publish on the net is here: Menu- File - Save image for web & devices. When you save the image in this way you always know for sure the images is converted to sRGB.

Nice feature of photoshop is also here there you can check the image if it is consistent. With the colorspace sRGB you should see not much difference.
Menu View - Proof setup - and there below you can check your image
mac rgb, windows rgb and monitor rgb. Very handy tool for webdesigners.

Flame Lily
05-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Thanks for the Photoshop tips, sure has changed a lot since I used it years ago - I feel really lost, but hopefully will figure it all out soon.
I did decide not to mess with my monitor as I'm happy with it otherwise.

Here's a quick water-soluble pencil study of a lemon. Dry pencils, water washed on top - 2 layers. For the darker area's on the lemon I used blue and violet, in a couple of spots I used red-violet. Won't mention the actual pencil color names as I have an assortment of WS Pencils and some of them are not available to buy here anymore. I could have worked on the lemon more, but I'll save it for a more serious piece later. There were no colored pencils used on this, just ws ones.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/24-May-2008/51101-LJH_WCP_Lemon1.jpg

dhara
05-24-2008, 03:20 PM
Thanks for the Photoshop tips, sure has changed a lot since I used it years ago - I feel really lost, but hopefully will figure it all out soon.
I did decide not to mess with my monitor as I'm happy with it otherwise.


you do not need to. The monitor is very compatible with adobe programs. And the default color space of photoshop is very compatible with mac. The developers of photoshop have programmed this program on as well as mac and windows. In the first years of photoshop you had to calibrate, but know a days it is not needed, unless you have to send high quality images to the press. Then it is important.

Just remember that when you want to change the colors on a photo and make it availible for web, to work in sRGB. and to achieve this to choose the save for web in the file menu.
Then you are sure the colors are consistent for most monitors, pc's and mac. And you will not have this issue any longer.
It is very frustrating, if you worked on a photo to get the colors right, to discover that on the web it looks very different.

CRYork
05-24-2008, 05:36 PM
Wow, that lemon looks real! It looks like you took a picture of it!

Char

Philbow
05-24-2008, 09:00 PM
What a great thread! Thank you for all the work. This is invaluable for a "monochromate" such as me.

Kind regards
Phil

frida
05-25-2008, 01:42 PM
Great thread Liesl!!! :thumbsup:

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with this fascinating subject ...

My best combination with yellow so far is using Dhalia Purple with Sunburst Y, both Prismas. I used that for the darkest areas in the Y flowers in my banner, and found that I could just layer one on the other at any point. The resulting warm brown is delicious!

Flame Lily
05-25-2008, 06:16 PM
dhara - LOL, Photoshop is one thing, but to add to my 'issues' I'm not a very good photographer, we have a new camera too and oy! Talk about a learning curve!

Phil - monochromate? :lol: Stick around and we'll figure this thing out!

Char & Frida - thanks! Frida, that combination is definitely delicious - I'd really love to see your piece full size, would you mind showing us here?

frida
05-25-2008, 09:55 PM
Thanks for asking! :wave:

Flame Lily
05-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Oh wow Raquel, those petals are gorgeous :thumbsup: Thank you for posting this here - it's a great example!

It's good to see you :)

lovingmylife
05-27-2008, 08:17 PM
Thank you so much, Flame Lily. This is my very first post and I am just beginning CP. Your lesson has taught me more about the practical aspects of color theory than I have learned so far from reading several CP books. I am so happy to meet you!

frida
05-27-2008, 10:50 PM
Thank you Liesl! Welcome loving... :wave:

I remember another positive experience with Yellow. I decided to do a piece with fern leaves without using any green pencil, so I made swatches first combining different yellows with different blues, and applied them accordingly. I also added a complementary red on some. It was a lot of fun!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-May-2008/17153-Ferndetail.jpg

Flame Lily
05-28-2008, 09:50 AM
Such a wonderful experiment Raquel.
Mixing colors this way makes whatever we're drawing stand out so much more. It's such a shame there is no easy way to display on screen how lovely these pieces look in real life.

For everyone new to this watching... I highly recommend going to see a Colored Pencil Exhibition, we get so used to seeing these drawings on a computer screen... it's a great experience seeing a group of very well done CP pieces in real life.

-

lovingmylife, thank you - I'm glad you are learning from this. The very best way to learn is to put the pencils to paper and go ahead with it, experiment a lot - try simple subjects, sometimes over and over. I'm sure we will learn a lot more as this thread goes on, soon we'll move on to yellow-green and we will continue to use yellow a lot for the rest of the way around the color wheel.
We would be very glad for you to share anything you try out, if you'd like to :)

-

I played a bit more with that lemon from post #24. Added some more violet & red-violet. This time I took a photograph outside, the paper buckled a little (used a scrap piece of watercolor paper) so there are some shadows on the paper - thanks to the lovely morning sun.
I think I preferred the subtle greens I had before, more than the browns - though the lemon sitting on my table has the brownish shadows on it. Watercolor pencils are so tricky aren't they?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-May-2008/51101-LJH_LemonWCP.jpg

lovingmylife
05-29-2008, 05:14 PM
Is there a color wheel with all the Prismacolors? I found one on this site, but some of the colors were not placed correctly. For example, true blue was listed as blue green. Or am I wrong? Anyway, sure would appreciate knowing what the complement to rosy beige and putty beige, etc are. Some of prismacolors are pretty amibiguous, it seems. Is it just me?

pinkrybns
05-29-2008, 05:20 PM
Is there a color wheel with all the Prismacolors? I found one on this site, but some of the colors were not placed correctly. For example, true blue was listed as blue green. Or am I wrong? Anyway, sure would appreciate knowing what the complement to rosy beige and putty beige, etc are. Some of prismacolors are pretty amibiguous, it seems. Is it just me?You're probably thinking of this thread and you're correct, she has it wrong in the first/initial image, but if you scroll down to post #14 you'll see she has placed True Blue in the correct place on the wheel
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359949

She further corrected it on the last page, I think.

Judy

lovingmylife
05-30-2008, 01:36 AM
Thank you Judy. I have more questions. The colorwheels I have seen have fewer rings than this one. They have one ring for the color, one for tint, shade. Why are there so many rings here?
In this last ring I see places where several colors are placed in the same space. For example, under Yellow, I see canary yellow, kelp green and marine green sharing the same space. Are kelp green and marine green considered yellows, or yellow greens? Thanks so very much.

pinkrybns
05-30-2008, 04:17 AM
Thank you Judy. I have more questions. The colorwheels I have seen have fewer rings than this one. They have one ring for the color, one for tint, shade. Why are there so many rings here?
In this last ring I see places where several colors are placed in the same space. For example, under Yellow, I see canary yellow, kelp green and marine green sharing the same space. Are kelp green and marine green considered yellows, or yellow greens? Thanks so very much.To be perfectly honest with you, I have no idea why she (couturej) chose so many colors, but I could guess that she wanted to do a wheel using all the 120 colors in a Prisma set (including the tints & shades and some newer colors at the time she did this). You would have to ask her, if you want the definitive answer.

However, as Bob Ebdon said at post #9 of that thread; "there is no such thing as a perfect colour wheel as we all perceive colour differently".

Again, I'm not sure why she put Kelp Green & Marine Green under Yellow except to say that they are warm greens, both with their biases leaning towards yellow rather than blue...perhaps that's why she placed them in that segment of her colorwheel. It does make sense if you read her thread and see how she set up where which color would go.

You can also read Bob's thread Colour Theory Work (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261931&highlight=Colour+Theory) and see if you can make your own colorwheel. It does help to make your own with your pencils, even if it seems like nit-picky drudge work. It will help you distinguish your warm colors from your cool colors. In my opinion, being able to distinguish warm from cool will help you when you get into the tints & shades of a color group.

Judy

lovingmylife
05-31-2008, 12:34 PM
thanks very much Judy. Will do.

pinkrybns
06-02-2008, 12:50 PM
Some posts from this thread are now to be found in a thread of their own..they deserved their own thread.
You will find them Here. (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499642)


Judy

Flame Lily
06-02-2008, 05:43 PM
That Prismacolor color wheel is interesting. I can see how different artists would see things differently and make different decisions. That's why it's good to do your own experimenting.
It would be a worth-while experiment too for a combination of pencil brands that have a high lightfast rating - making an extended color wheel (if you will) including neutrals and various intensities etc.

-

I'm working on the next hue > Yellow-green

Before that though, one more thing about yellow (surely it's not the only thing we've forgotten about yellow - so more could come up later in the thread).... but, what about BLACK? Why not use black to make yellow darker?

Try it, see what happens when you add a little black and then a little more. You usually get a muddy green. There is nothing wrong with using black, but you have to try it and also try mixing other colors, instead of black to understand why you may not WANT to use it. Using neutrals to mix with your colors - will do exactly that, neutralize. Making your colors duller or grayer, but the kind of dull gray that makes the color bland or unemotional, less vivid - you get the picture.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Black_Mixed_Yellow.jpg

First square has yellow plus white (tint), second is just yellow, third a little black plus yellow to tone down the yellow and then lastly yellow plus black - a lot more black this time (shade).

Unless it meshes with your style, you'd likely not want to use black with yellow. Of course, if you want a lifeless muddy green - you know now how to get it :D

If you've ever tried putting yellow pencil on black paper, you would have experienced this phenomenon. It usually helps to put white down first and then yellow on top, when you use black paper.

Well, lets not end this on a dull note. Go grab your Yellow-green pencils and start mixing other colors with them to see what interesting combinations you get, I'll be doing the same :D

RobinZ
06-03-2008, 07:32 AM
This is such an interesting thread!

This "a lifeless muddy green" is sort of a neutral and has its place in nature. And can be useful to help the more vivid passages shine.

TessDB
06-03-2008, 08:54 AM
oooo.... you're tiptoeing around to the color family I really struggle with. Greens are *such* a thing for me. And it seems like any time I work with yellow-greens, they go scary electric on me. :rolleyes:

Any room left in the front row for me? I'll bring snacks if someone will scoot over! :D

Rosemary

frida
06-03-2008, 10:49 AM
I missed a few posts because somehow I am not receiving email notifications for some reason.

What Robin says is so true when it comes to colour. We usually avoid the dull shades, but they are the best foil for the clean, bright ones!

Flame Lily
06-04-2008, 06:16 PM
This "a lifeless muddy green" is sort of a neutral and has its place in nature. And can be useful to help the more vivid passages shine.What Robin says is so true when it comes to colour. We usually avoid the dull shades, but they are the best foil for the clean, bright ones!Absolutely, this is true. The combination could very well be used to contrast or enhance purer surrounding colors.

Any room left in the front row for me? I'll bring snacks if someone will scoot over!I think some yellow-green limes, kiwi fruit, Granny Smith apples & white grapes are in order :D

I know what you mean about greens, I have more green pencils than any other color and I always think I need more – but perhaps I don't, since we're about to adventure into mixing colors in an attempt to get the greens we want.

Flame Lily
06-04-2008, 06:25 PM
The following might be stating the obvious for many of the experienced CP users here, this part is more for the benefit of those just starting out...

We know that yellow is a primary color and we can not mix any other color to get yellow. Not so with greens, so how do we get yellow-green - the next hue if we go clockwise around the color wheel?
We know to get green we mix blue with yellow (generally in equal amounts), well, yellow-green just has more much yellow than blue.

Many beautiful greens can be made when you mix yellows and blues, of course we already have some mixed up and made for us – but as we did with yellow, if you want to liven things up, add some pizzaz, punch or even depth to your drawing – mixing colors will give you some interesting and often times more appropriate results. So, when we use various yellows or various blues (or various amounts of each) we'll get various greens (but first we'll do yellow-greens).

Which of your pencils would you consider to be yellow-green? For Prismacolor it seems the closest and most pure is Chartreuse. I'll show some swatches of other brands that I have so we can see how the yellow-greens compare. If anyone has other brands you can show, that would be great too.

I tried to get the photograph of these swatches as close as I could to the pencil colors on paper but these are not a perfect match.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow_Blues_Greens.jpg

A list of yellows and blues using various brands that I have - these I think match as close as possible to pure bright yellows and blues. The third row is a list of greens with various brands (I don't have every color in every brand, so I could be missing a few) - these I think match as close as I can get to yellow-green. A few of them lean a little more to green, but could probably still be considered yellow-green.

I have included a swatch there by Derwent Coloursoft of a pencil called "Yellow Green" (#C450) But, as you can see it has more of an earth tone, it's like a golden-green rather than what I would see as a yellow-green. However, if you had an earthy palette it would be lovely for that.

The rest of the swatches that follow are numerous yellow and blue pencils mixed in an attempt to create yellow-green. You just *have* to do this yourself if you want to see how it really looks :) Just use yellow and then a very light touch of blue and perhaps yellow on top again to blend together.

Side note: After doing this little experiment, I can tell you in my opinion I think Prismacolors blend the best, they also blend well with other brands, my favorite two together are Prisma's and Pablo's. I am surprised to see how buttery soft Coloursoft's are but they don't seem to blend as well as the Prisma's. Having said that, don't take my word for it - it could be the paper I'm using. I like to use 'Bristol Smooth' to demonstrate on - I normally would not use this paper to do actual drawings.

ocmd123
06-04-2008, 06:27 PM
I know what you mean about greens, I have more green pencils than any other color and I always think I need more –


Me too! Why is that??
I am following along and learning a lot here. Hope to have time to jump and and participate soon.

Edit: We cross-posted Liesl! I'll read through this a little later and comment. You've been busy! :)

Flame Lily
06-04-2008, 06:37 PM
Here's an example of yellow-green used in an analogous color scheme. Again, please try this if you have not already, the colors are bright and gorgeous, much clearer in real life - the gradation is so effortless and smooth - because analogous colors have a close relationship with each other, being right next to each other on the color wheel.

First begin with yellow-green, use colors going anti-clockwise on the color wheel and the next example going clockwise.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow_Green_Analogous.jpg

If you want to go darker, just keep moving till you get to the complement of yellow-green which is red-violet. Or stay tuned, more swatches to follow :D

(If I can get a better picture, I'll try show this again, otherwise perhaps will just show it in an example of a drawing -- the combination on the left keeps screaming "cantaloupe!" and the second one "lime!")

See the following images in the *Reference Image Library to see what I mean... (or do a google search for some images of these fruits to see if you can catch this combination of colors, by the way another note for newer folks... don't use photo's online to make drawings from - get permission first. If you use images from the *RIL it's OK, they are there for you to use.)

Melon slice on mirror by Fagan (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=34020&size=big&cat=&si=cantelope&perpage=12)
or
This Cantaloupe by BettyBoop22 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=65058&size=big&cat=&si=cantelope&perpage=12)

How about...
Limes by tonigart (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=29698&size=big&cat=&si=lime&what=allfields)

If you want to draw them or something similar to show us, please do - I'll try this sometime soon myself, don't make me do all the work (I think I said that before) :lol:

Flame Lily
06-04-2008, 06:54 PM
Me too! Why is that??
I am following along and learning a lot here. Hope to have time to jump and and participate soon.

Edit: We cross-posted Liesl! I'll read through this a little later and comment. You've been busy! :)That's OK, don't worry :)

I'll take this opportunity to let ya'll know. I'm S-L-O-W! With everything I do :) It might take me a while between posts and colors etc., while working on this. I hope everyone understands. Also, this yellow-green and then green will take us a long time I think, there are just so many possibilities.

Elaine, I don't know what my fascination with greens are or were (I used to like to draw a lot of foliage) - I just could never get enough of them and didn't feel like Prisma's had enough, that's when I started buying other brands. Now I know I don't need to do that anymore, I could just use what I have. I do want to start making sure when I replace pencils, to get the lightfast ones. I need to get the book from CPSA first.

frida
06-04-2008, 09:06 PM
I beg to differ Liesl. You have posted an enormous amount of material today, and that doesn't indicate slowness exactly! :rolleyes:

Don't worry about speed. Speaking for myself, I will need time to go through everything and do some swatches, which brings me to a question.

I am going to start testing Orange Yellow for a new piece. Would it be all right to post what I find? It would mean going back to Yellow when you are venturing into Green already. I want to test different complementary combinations, but I won't post them if you think it would be out of sequence. No problem either way... :angel:

Your references are wonderful.

friesin
06-05-2008, 04:48 AM
These pics are a wonderful help, thank you so much, Liesl !!:grouphug:

Comparing the different brands, I somehow get the impression that Derwent Coloursoft are more earthy than other brands, is it true ?

Elen
06-05-2008, 05:45 AM
don't make me do all the work (I think I said that before) :lol:

Your references are so beautiful,I think,I`ll give it a go ! That`s strange,but lately I seem not to be able to draw anything,may be that`s because the subjects I chose don`t come out so well,as I intended them to be..:lol:

Flame Lily
06-05-2008, 10:27 AM
I am going to start testing Orange Yellow for a new piece. Would it be all right to post what I find? It would mean going back to Yellow when you are venturing into Green already. I want to test different complementary combinations, but I won't post them if you think it would be out of sequence. No problem either way... :angel:Oh yes, please do share what you find, let us know what pencils you use too. I guess you'll have 'some' green somewhere too won't you? I don't think we'll completely cover yellow till we've gone the whole way around, so yellow will crop up often, if not all the time.

Comparing the different brands, I somehow get the impression that Derwent Coloursoft are more earthy than other brands, is it true ?Yes, I also think so, though they do have a lot of bright intense colors also, most of rest seem to be more 'earthy' (I have most of the colors, I didn't get grays and am missing a couple of colors) I do like earth tones - my palette tends to lean that way. I think that the Coloursofts work best (for blending) on rougher or sanded type surfaces, I didn't enjoy them yesterday on the smooth paper.

Your references are so beautiful,I think,I`ll give it a go ! That`s strange,but lately I seem not to be able to draw anything,may be that`s because the subjects I chose don`t come out so well,as I intended them to be..:lol:Well Elen, you and I have much in common with regards to CP :) Things never seem to turn out as I intend them to. Don't get discouraged, just keep at it - you never stop learning and there's always room for improvement for all of us.

As soon as I can get to a grocery store I'll look for some yellow-green grapes or a yellow-green pear (those are easy to draw) if I can find cantaloupe or nice looking limes, I'll get them too -- hope I find time to draw them all before they go bad :lol: We'll see.

Elen
06-07-2008, 05:48 PM
Thanks for encouragement,Flame Lily ! :)
As I mentioned before,I decided to have a go at one of the beautiful references you posted,so, it`s Limes by tonigart (a somewhat paler version). :lol:
(http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/../RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=29698&size=big&cat=&si=lime&what=allfields)

Flame Lily
06-09-2008, 11:02 AM
Elen, this is beautiful :thumbsup: You did a wonderful job with the yellows and greens, I'm so inspired! I'd so love to see a close-up photo of the fruit (by the way I also love the bowl and fabric)

Tell us how you handled the greens and yellows too - did you use any blues? It looks like you did -- could you possibly share names of the colors you used? Did you enjoy doing it? The fruit simply GLOWS with color, love it! :clap:

frida
06-09-2008, 07:20 PM
Well done Ellen! :clap: The yellows in the lemons are clean, crisp and vibrant, but very "lemony". The greens are gorgeous.

It seems you had fun doing the soft folds on the fabric. How large is it?

I am also waiting for more details... :cool:

Flame Lily
06-10-2008, 01:56 PM
Here are a few swatches with Yellow-Green and it's complementary colors. There's two for each because I tried using two different camera's, yet still - neither are accurate in showing how it looks on paper (we're having overcast weather today). So, again of course, the best thing to do is try this for yourself :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow_Green_Complementary.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow_Green_SplitComplementary.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow_Green_DoubleComplementary.jpg


Another way I like to go darker with Yellow-Green using Prismacolors is to use 'Dark Green' and 'Indigo Blue' as shown in this swatch:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow_Green_DarkGreenIndigo.jpg

If you want to go warmer, you could use Tuscan Red (a very dark red) instead of the Indigo Blue.

This one, from the beginning of the thread... a combination of Yellow, Green (making Yellow-Green) Violet and Indigo Blue can be used too.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jun-2008/51101-LJH_Yellow02.jpg

Elen
06-11-2008, 07:33 AM
Thank you, Flame Lily and Frida ,you made my day! :heart:
Sorry for getting back to this so late,my daughters school has moved into new building and now it takes us 45 minutes to go there and 45 minutes to get back,(instead of former 5 ... :() But on the other hand,it seems,that I`ll be getting a lot of exercise ,which is good ! :thumbsup:


Flame Lily, as far,as i can remember ,i used Light chrome yellow(106),Cadmium yellow(107) ,Violet (138),Mauve (249), Purple Violet (136),and couple of greens,really don`t remember which. I was kind of feeling my way in the dark :lol: (all pencils F-C Polychromos)
I tryed some sort of underpainting - made a tonal drawing first and then just introduced a local colour... The thing I`ve learn from this is following - if you want to get it decent-looking, you have to pay a lot of attention to underpainting,because if you don`t get the values right,it becomes diffucult to alter something after the local colour is introduced, In my case it resulted in untidy looking drawing (if you look at it closely from distance it looks not so bad :D)

Frida, it`s not large at all, I drew it in my sketchbook,(A-5)
I really enjoyed doing the fabric,I thought,it would be the hardest part,but actually the hardest part was a bowl and the fruits... :lol:
Thank you very much for your kind comments,you inspired me to keep trying !

Elen
06-30-2008, 02:53 PM
Hi,everyone,this is my next " yellow-green ,green" project. All is made up,as you can,probably,tell,as I am still not sure,where my light source is :evil: .. i imagined it from right (our right),but I `m afraid, it looks more like the light source is from the front... :rolleyes: or is it... Well, to make my long story short - please,help ! :) I would be happy to hear any suggestions.

P.S.: Or is it better to post it as a individual thread ? i wouldn`t like to clutter this thread with something unsuitable :o

frida
06-30-2008, 03:28 PM
WOW! :clap: What a magnificent bunch of grapes your imagination can put together...! That is quite a talent, honestly.

I find the light coming from front/right pretty convincing, and love the BG and the subtle cast shadow of the stem on the wall. The only thing I would correct is the table line, so there is continuity between left and right.

Perhaps if you can post a larger image it would be easier to look at it grape by grape.

I read somewhere that Liesl was going away, or did I dream it? I know her wish for this thread was that we collaborate by sharing our colour studies and/or projects to focus mainly on colour...

Elen
06-30-2008, 05:22 PM
Hi,Raquel,thanks ! The background is made with 3 pencils ,Cadmium Yellow,light Cadmium Red and Dark indigo - all Polychromos. My Indigo is very short now.:rolleyes: i think,it will be the first pencil,i`ll use up.

ocmd123
06-30-2008, 09:54 PM
Elen, you are improving with each drawing! Those grapes are wonderful.....and from memory! I am truly envious! My only comment is that the green looks a bit too bright (could be my monitor). Maybe try using some of the color theory info to tone them down just a touch.

ourcassidy!
07-02-2008, 08:16 PM
Thanks so much to Liesl for posting this in-depth info! It is so greatly apreciated. I would like to jump in tomorrow and give it a go. Been a little busy the past few weeks, hope to start on Thur.

Can't pass up a good opportunity like this! Thanks again!

Some great work going on here as well. Love those grapes Freida (I think that is the artist-if not accept my apologies..)

Thanks again, Pam

Flame Lily
07-07-2008, 11:07 AM
The Reference Image Library is filled with gorgeous photo's showcasing yellow-green, when I was browsing through I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to draw something from this photo by coyotegal (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=58731). The bright yellow-greens caught my eye and I loved the abstract appearance of the rose-like leaves.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/07-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_Echeveria.jpg

I used Prismacolors and a few Pablo Caran d'Ache pencils.
- Chartreuse (my favorite yellow-green pencil)
- Apple Green
- Celedon Green
- Light Aqua and Aquamarine
- Mulberry
- Violet
- Indigo Blue
- Pablo's White
- Pablo's Ruby Red
- Pablo's Ivory Black

This was on dark green Colourfix, which presented a challenge in itself - had to build up the bright yellow-greens with white underneath first.
I enjoyed this because I learned from the experiments with yellow and green - violet and red-violet (Mulberry) / the complements are spread throughout.

OK, I guess next there will be more green and then blue-green. I have so many green pencils - yet still have to mix colors to get what I want. I'll try this week to whip up some more swatches and talk about the color combinations. Feel free to share your idea's for green mixtures or questions or woes :)

Flame Lily
07-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Elen, thanks for the list of colors used on your lemon & lime piece, I am still marveling at it, it's a really lovely drawing.
Your grapes are definitely suitable to this thread :thumbsup: they too are lovely. I like the background, really helps the grapes to stand out. The yellows and greens are real nice, I agree with Elaine that if you want to - you could add a few more darks on some of the grapes. You have done well showing their luminosity!

Raquel, LOL you weren't dreaming, I was away for a while - took some time off for Birthday celebrations :D
You know, speaking of focusing on color, the more I experiment and do research - the more I realize we are just shaving the very tip of the ice-berg here so far. I feel like we're rushing (I know, that's not funny :lol: I'm taking forever to make posts... but) there is so much more to it than what we're covering at first. Hopefully we can eventually cover all the aspects of color, I guess we'll just play it by ear and see how things turn out.

Pam, we'd love it if you joined in. Even if you don't have a chance to post your experiments or drawings, give this a try and keep a record of your discoveries and if you do have time, we'd love it if you could share what you come up with. The more the merrier :D

gakinme
07-07-2008, 11:34 AM
Liesl, thank you for this great thread. Color theory books sometimes are too condensed and as a reader, we get lazy. But your first few swatches already is motivating. I'll try them out in my sketchbook and then come back for more. I love blue greens and would like to try my hand on them too.

frida
07-07-2008, 01:32 PM
Your Echeveria, one of my favourite plants, is beautiful!!! The leaves are so plump that in looking at them I started asking myself, from a point of view of Colour, what is giving them volume. The values are, the darker greens you have used that are "tucking" the leaves in place. I should probably say the Indigo, Mulberry, Violet and Black you darkened with, right?

Lovely dusty green you have obtained, so characteristic of this succulent. Is this the Celadon or white?

After reading a littlle book on painting by Bernard Dunstan, I need to accept that I have been dogmatic about how cool and warm move in space. In your plant, the Chartreuse is working very convincingly for the underside.

It's gorgeous!!! :thumbsup:

EDIT - the colour passages are mouth watering... :D

Flame Lily
07-14-2008, 09:44 PM
http://www.liesl.org/ACEO_LJHArts/DontDelete_GreenCombination01.jpg


http://www.liesl.org/ACEO_LJHArts/DontDeleteGreenCombination02.jpg

Here are just a few swatches for green, you can go ahead and do more if you'd like, using double complementary, analogous or monochromatic schemes etc.
The first one is green mixed with it's complementary color red, repeated but with a really dark red (Tuscan Red). When I was working on the third swatch, a "green pear'' came to mind, using green mixed with red-orange and violet produced lovely browns.

GREEN pencils don't always give me what I want most of the time, but with practice it's getting easier. Playing with swatches first has really helped, I LOVE the browns and darker greens you get when you mix the complements or near complements.

I tried a pear without a photo reference and used many of the color combinations we've experimented with so far, starting with yellows, greens and blues - mixed with violet, red-violet, red and red-orange. This is done on green colourfix paper again, it tends to photograph better for me, I had a lot of trouble getting the swatches above to photograph accurately (as usual) - so once again I urge you to do the swatches on your own to see the true colors. I also used Apple Green as the base color for this drawing instead of True Green used in the swatches above... the (color) results were pleasing to me.

http://www.liesl.org/ACEO_LJHArts/Dont_delete_LJH_GreenPear.jpg

Flame Lily
07-14-2008, 10:01 PM
Sandra, you are very welcome - I hope you have had a chance to try some of this, I already feel like it's helped me improve with my own work lately.

Raquel, thank you again. Something has 'clicked' in my brain I think, I don't know if it's these exercises (because I've done exercises like this before) or what. I'd like to think it's because of this, but I've tapped into something here and I'm hoping it is the start (finally) of making a few leaps with my work. I've been waiting a long time for something to click :lol:

Yes, I do think those dark colors you mentioned helped to make everything else work - in all fairness, I owe anything that 'worked' to the photograph. The reference photograph by coyotegal is truly wonderful. Now, the dusty green I attribute to the way the colourfix works - yes, the Celedon and White ground into the sandy green surface was a good mix.

Thanks Raquel, your comments have been very helpful.

- - -

If anyone has any questions, I'll try my best to answer - or someone will pop in to help answer, if anything is unclear or incorrect or bothering you, please ask. :)

frida
07-14-2008, 10:36 PM
I am lining up behind you waiting for something to click for me too! I have spent so much time looking at what others do and feeling behind... For the first time I am accepting my own pace and the way my mind functions, and going with instead of against it. And I am enjoying more what I do as a result.

I am working on a composition with three peppers: orange, green and red. Just scanned the underpainting, but it doesn't show the nuances. I'll try a digital photo during the day, and I will post the swatches later. I have done so many, and still felt insecure when the time came to get started... :o

frida
07-16-2008, 10:33 PM
These are the main colour combinations I worked on for an Orange I like preparing for my peppers, using Prismacolors.

Since it involves highlights, most of the swatches have one, so I could also practice the gradation towards them more. I used the paper I want for the final piece, Strathmore Bristol Vellum Series 500 - 3-ply. It is quite "toothy", and allows many light layers, but I find that after about two or three it can be dense enough to increase the pressure and burnish a bit. Applying the colourless #1077 at the end a final blending happens.

1. On the first O, I used Dahlia Purple and Greyed Lavender (complements of Yellow) for the underpainting, but judging by the reduced Yellow and Orange surfaces I ended up with, the underpainting is probably too extended. I followed the colour list in a demo with a pear in Arlene's book Masterful Color. It was a good exercise, and I really enjoyed it.

The colours I used on top of the underpainting were Yellow Ochre, Goldenrod, Jasmine, Crimson Lake, Canary Yellow, White and Raspberry. I wanted a less browny Orange overall... I like the scan, but it is definitely brown IRL.

2. Since the pepper in my reference is definitely orange, I tried another combination to reduce the yellow areas. The second started with Blue Violet Lake, Blue Slate and Cloud Blue. Blue is the complement of Orange. The pencils were Orange, Yellowed O and Spanish O - plus Pale Vermillion and Carmine.

3. I decided to simplify the colour list, which came from Cecile Baird's Painting light with colored pencil - In this I left out the Cloud B and the too yellow Spanish O, and darkened a bit with Tuscan Red at the end.

BTW. I made the little white dot on the bottom right picking pigment with a wet brush from a White Neocolor II and applying it on top of dense CP. It would be a good way to restore highlights or make lowlights if one wants to use only CP... :thumbsup:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Jul-2008/17153-Orange1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Jul-2008/17153-Orange2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Jul-2008/17153-Orange3.jpg

Flame Lily
07-17-2008, 09:41 AM
Oohhh look how pretty! Nice swatches and tests Raquel - I guess it all depends on what is surrounding your subjects in the background etc., but I really like the combination where you used ''Blue Violet Lake & Blue Slate'' -- looks more luscious and lively. Do you work your whole piece together (background and all) or do you work in individual parts?

frida
07-17-2008, 09:42 PM
There won't be a BG, except cast shadows linking the three peppers. This is intended as a botanical illustration...

It is taking me a long time to tolerate NOT having a BG! I usually start with it, and like working all over. So far I decided on the colour combinations of the peppers, and have the complementaries down on all three. More posts to come later.

frida
07-19-2008, 10:54 PM
Where is everybody?

I started mixing greens combining two at a time to obtain a believable plant green, warming a cool one or viceversa, but these exercises are not only about colour. My objective is to make a three-dimensional pepper, so modelling is quite important to arrive at volume. Meaning I need a value range by using complementary colours as a base.

I used Black Cherry, Tuscan Red and Clay Rose for a good gradation as the underpainting.

1. I used too much of the Dark Green, and the final colour is too far from the G I want for my pepper.

2. I realized the Grass G was much closer to the local colour I wanted, so I layered the Dark G as a lighter wash, and left more of the Grass G. This colour combination resulted from testing many!

3. The pepper I photographed and which colour I am trying to replicate looks fresher, livelier. I ended adding touches of Olive G, Celadon and Yellow Chartreuse.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2008/17153-Green1.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2008/17153-Green2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Jul-2008/17153-Green3.jpg

Judibelle
07-20-2008, 06:43 PM
I am loving seeing the color combinations....and raquel's peppers. Your greens, Flame Lily, are just beautiful. I decided to try a few combinations myself....I used a pepper whose one side was still green, and the other side of it turned red.
I dont have all the colors you folks seem to have, but I used goldenrod, canary, spanish,
crimson, mulberry,violet blue, (all prismas)
a china marker Green, prisma apple green ...I think that's it...done in my sketchbook
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Jul-2008/103700-scan0001.jpg_green_to_red_pepper.jpg

frida
07-21-2008, 01:45 PM
Your sketch shows a good beginning, Judibelle!

When you use many layers of colours, as it is recommended to do it with CP, the layers need to be light, but first of all the colours should be compatible for the resulting colour to be clear.

On Post #57, Liesl referred to the complementary colour of Yellow Green, and on #68 how to darken a cooler Green. Your greens show a good colour combination. You can continue to make them darker by using a dark red as Tuscan Red. I have found that the colours can be repeated along the way if necessary, always with a light touch.

The reds show a bit muddy, though. A Violet Blue will not work well with Red, as the Blue component is not a good choice. A bright, not muted Purple or Dark Green will be better. You will see the difference when Liesl goes on around the wheel...

Keep on mixing the colours, but always with your mind on sets of complements:
Red - Green (and viceversa)
Yellow - Violet ( " " )
Blue - Orange ( " " )

A simple way to remember which colour is on the opposite side of the wheel, is to think of the Primaries R - Y - B. The complement of each is the one resulting from the mixture of the other two! And to go the other way, if the colour is a secondary (mixture of two primaries) to begin with, the complement will be the third one missing!

Judibelle
07-21-2008, 02:05 PM
Thanks for your comments, Raquel! I know I have a lot to learn...about complements, etc...but it is fun experimenting. I really appreciate the formula for making the complements! I have written that down in my sketchbook! And I have to remember to keep the layers light! I'll keep trying....
JB

Flame Lily
07-21-2008, 10:59 PM
Raquel, I looked at your yellow/orange swatches again but this time on my son's computer and I have to say the combination with 'Dahlia Purple' is gorgeous. Actually they all looked really nice on his monitor...
now seeing what you've done with green is just lovely!

Your greens are definitely 'believable plant greens' - when I look at them I think of green peppers, so nice job :thumbsup:
I understand what you mean about your exercises not being about color only... this whole project has been a bit difficult to focus only on color (hue) because it's near impossible to 'not discuss' other *aspects of color as well.

Side note:
By the way, I love botanical illustrations with white or no backgrounds, I've seen some really beautiful ones on WetCanvas. Feast your eyes on work by Heidi Willis (hidy) in the Watercolor forum...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=459699
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434742 (don't miss this WIP)


Judibelle, it's great to see you participate and thanks for showing us your pepper. Isn't it marvelous how we can see these fabulous combinations in nature all around us?

- - -

A note for beginners:
* When trying to decide which pencil(s) to pick up, we have to decide more than just 'which color' to choose. For example if we have a 'green' object, it's not going to be the same green all over - some parts might be green with a yellowish tone, some parts might be bright, some parts less intense/dull/subdued - as stated before you could have a yellowish green or a bluish green or earthy green etc., - so you'll most likely need to modify the tones/values etc., using various other colors/pencils.

All color has a tone or value, a temperature, intensity and so on. These are all important - values are very important and can be difficult to achieve as a beginner. (I still struggle myself)
As you try to learn to see and pick the right colors, try to learn to see these various values and other aspects of color as well.

I'll try soon to do some more swatches or examples or value scales to show this more clearly.

frida
07-21-2008, 11:45 PM
By the way, I love botanical illustrations with white or no backgrounds, I've seen some really beautiful ones on WetCanvas. Feast your eyes on work by Heidi Willis (hidy) in the Watercolor forum...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=459699
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=434742 (don't miss this WIP)
Heidi Willis, botanical artist from Australia (I believe), is posting on WC!??? :thumbsup: I am off to drool...!

Thank you for the links and for your comments on my colours. :D

Judibelle
07-22-2008, 10:06 AM
thanks, FlameLily...your note to beginners is very helpful.
Here is my try at doing the texture of a tree in my backyard. tried to keep the color-combinations as Raquel suggested. Need much more work on values and tones... The light green mossy areas did not show up well on the trunk.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jul-2008/103700-scan0007.jpg__tree_texture.jpg

frida
07-22-2008, 11:40 AM
A few comments about your sketch, Judi...

CP brings a completely different way of thinking, as it is a translucent medium. Colour needs to be isolated in order to show up well. I may be absolutely wrong, but it seems to me some of your green moss is overlapping the brown, in which case it will not be green anymore.

The second regards pencils. If you don't have many colours, one way to lighten up a green would be to first layer White. It fills the paper grain and when you apply the colour the paper doesn't take a lot of its pigment. Of course it would be better to have a lighter colour to begin with. Using White (or Cream) on top after would also make it lighter, but give it a "milky" effect.

This may sound off topic, but I see it as an important point worth repeating... I bought CP boxes when I started. Not anymore! I ended up with colours I never use. If you have access to Open Stock Prismas you can get only the colours you need. Of course they end up being more expensive than a box, but it gets balanced in the end, and you can even take advantage of sales and stock up your favourites.

Judibelle
07-22-2008, 12:39 PM
Raquel, your remarks are most helpful. It's a real lesson in learning new things, as in watercolor one does it one way, with pastels another, and with the c.p. another whole new way of doing things. Now if I can just absorb the information enough to make it work....!
I will try white as an undercoat next time. I expect it will make a difference. and I do also need some different colored pencils. I only have one set of 8, and one is missing....so I am limited in the prismas...

Flame Lily
07-22-2008, 11:02 PM
Maybe this will help a little further...

Even though I've done several experiments on my own and have tried to study this a bit, I'm still learning and have lots of room for improvement, but will see if I can explain it a little... (I'm probably not going to go into great detail, I think that could be for another thread another time.)

While learning to see color and knowing which colors to mix and which not to mix, we must also try to understand what effect light (and lower levels of light) has on any given color.

What could be more important than color? Could it be light and shade (do some research and study tone/value/modeling). An image will look flat or without form if there is not a good range of values. Before you even think of beginning a drawing, you'll want the subject you're about to draw to have good lighting/with interesting portions of light and shade. Of course if you become familiar with how light and cast shadow's etc., work, then you could render form and lovely shadows even if a subject you're about to draw does not have good lighting.

If you are struggling with values and other aspects of color, you may want to put down your pencils for a time, stop if you are not getting satisfactory results and get your hands on some helpful information, you can go to the library or you can do research online.
Start with something like this perhaps > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiaroscuro and read, read, read!

If you have never attempted the exercise of drawing a 'value scale' then now is the time. It is a very frustrating exercise at first, it is not easy, but if you can do it – you know you can achieve various values in your work as well. Don't be afraid to try it and don't give up after your first try.

I did this one today, it's not perfect, like I said it's not easy... but it is a worthwhile exercise... I used various green pencils - you could use one darker green through out if you want to.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_Green_ValueScale.jpg

So, now we want to make the right color choices, but we also realize that we have to interpret the correct amount of light and shade to create form and produce those colors. We have to learn to render and translate the values of color into the values of light and dark. This is what Raquel referred to when she was talking about testing more than 'color' with her swatches for her peppers.

Take a quick look at an example, a lovely photo by jocelynsart in the RIL http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=65400

The green apple has very light (white), light, middle and dark values. If you look at it in gray scale, you can see the values more clearly.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jul-2008/51101-WC_jocelynsart_applebirdseyeview.jpg

It's always a good idea to observe your subject and note the direction and source of the light, there are of course times when light is reflected and there is more than one source of light, but carefully observe where the light is coming from in order to accentuate some area's and tone down others.

I can't explain any better, so scroll down (in this following link) to read the excellent quotes from Andrew Loomis.
http://www.learning-to-see.co.uk/loomis-form-principle
By the way, that entire 'Learning to see site' is brilliant – take some time to read through it.

We can do a common exercise to try to illustrate the form principle, try it, use greens if you'd like since we're on greens right now. You could try first with black and gray pencils, then move on to color. (OK, see, I need more practice myself :) )

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_GreenValueLightSource.jpg

Another helpful exercise is to choose an old master's painting and re-create a portion (or entire piece if you're patient) to see if you can understand how and why that painting 'works' (as a beginner, pay specific attention to the values the master has achieved) – try something by Rembrandt (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=17259)
or Vermeer (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=13854) for example...
LOOK at that blue cloth (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=12730) - amazing.

Flame Lily
07-25-2008, 09:23 PM
On to blue-green then? [All Prismacolors used below]

Played around with this some more and added some blue-green (Aquamarine) and a little dark blue (Indigo Blue) to the ball and the shadow. Changed the highlight a bit, lifted with sticky stuff. Oh how I wish you could see the paper -- it's soooo pretty seeing the blue-green sitting on top of the green colors, it just doesn't show in the photo.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_BlueGreenValueLightSource.jpg

Just did a little swatch to show green (True Green) and blue (True Blue) mixed, you see the blue-green in the middle.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_Blue+Green.jpg

Here's a couple of swatches, the mixtures on the paper are SO luscious, they reminded me of a gorgeous photo I saw in the Ref Library, so I'm going to try to start working on it tomorrow. It'll be done on dark paper so I think my camera will pick up the colors better than what you see in these swatches.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_BlueGreenComp.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_BlueGreenSplitComp.jpg

Actually the drawing I have in mind will probably use combo's of blue as well, so I'll just go ahead and put swatches done for blue here as well.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_BlueSplitComp.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_BlueDoubComp.jpg

I've been wondering, since the thread has been so quiet -- if we have answered the questions that began the thread?

Which colors do we choose? Or How do we choose colors?
How do we mix colors to get interesting grays or darker values?
How do we avoid getting muddy mixes?

I'll try to cover more ground in the following posts, let us know if anyone has any specific questions about what has been covered.
And...
I've made so many swatches using the same pencils (some are getting shorter) that I may use a different approach to complete the thread once we get half way through the color wheel.

Flame Lily
07-25-2008, 09:26 PM
This could be a fun project for your art journal... have a look at the wonderful color combinations that occur in nature - document them by making swatches or colored sketches...

See this incredible photo of a peacock feather by jocelynsart (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=61910) in the RIL

Here is a portion of it, look at the harmonious ~ analogous colors, in this are all the colors we have covered so far including blue that we've started to look at and yes, even yellow if you zoom in (would probably use some yellow in the lightest parts if you were to draw it).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-WC_jocelynsart_portionpeacockfeather.jpg

I thought I'd post this peacock portrait I did a while back using pen & ink and watercolor pencils, touched up here and there with colored pencils. I used greens + blues in this and loved doing it, was a bit sad when I had to mail it out to the buyer. For the background I used oranges/yellows as complements for contrast. By the way, I used a ref by lisilk (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=64075) in the RIL – it's a must see photo!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_peacock_portrait.jpg

Flame Lily
07-25-2008, 11:35 PM
This might help to define what a tint is (imagine the light source is above left of the cube):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_BlueValueLightSource.jpg

Tint: Color plus white
Adding white to a base color (or local color) to lighten it.

Become aware of how this changes color, sometimes it might be called for, but not always - there are other ways to produce 'light' color with colored pencils.
- It usually causes the color to change to a pastel version of the color, making the area appear softer or more subdued.
- It seems to change one of the qualities which many of us enjoy about colored pencils, which is, luminosity and or rather transparency. Not in every case though, it depends on the surface you're working on... sanded surfaces handle differently to regular paper.
- Many times when you add white over other layers (again, not in every case and not on every kind of paper) this tends to burnish the area you're working on. So, if the burnishing changes the texture of the paper and it's next to other un-burnished area's the overall look might be inconsistent.

You just have to practice and see how you can make it work for you. There is nothing wrong with burnishing by the way - I love seeing CP pieces that are burnished. I rarely do this though because I like seeing the texture of the paper (but that's jus' me)

As for shades... that would be with black or complements added to the base color to darken it. In the cube I used orange to darken the shaded area... black in the lower right corner. Black dulls the color so much, you might want that... but the orange with the blue works beautifully... you can add a bit of Indigo Blue instead of Black to go darker.

Here's a little swatch of True Blue and Orange mixed - a grayed/shaded blue. This looks different to the shade on the cube, probably because I put much more blue down before using orange (on the cube.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jul-2008/51101-LJH_Blue+Orange.jpg

.
Who knew it would be such a challenge to draw a cube!? It's a really fun, a lot less boring than doing regular swatches... I might just do cubes (need more practice) and or cylinders even to show complementaries and shaded colors the rest of the way around the wheel.

Are we still going around? Through to Yellowed-Orange? Or have these posts pretty much served the purpose?

Judibelle
07-26-2008, 08:11 AM
no, dont stop....these lessons are most enlightening (:) ). Here is the lemon I tried, along with 2 peaches, which I tried to smoothe out a little.
Now, I have a real stupid (elementary) question....(I kno, Iknow...there are no stupid questions.) But it's so elementary it makes me feel stupid to ask it....
ok here goes: when you do the swatches, and the value line. for instance,...do you start with the whole area covered with the base color, and just keep adding each color over the whole area? Or do you just add each successive color over just one area? To make one area 'smoother' do you just keep adding the same lightweigt color over it? When does it get to not show the lines and the paper underneath? (Sorry...I guess that was more than one question, wasnt it?)
I think it's wonderful that you are doing this thread. THANK YOU!
JB

Judibelle
07-26-2008, 08:12 AM
oops, I forgot my drawing...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jul-2008/103700-scan0009.jpg__lemon,_peaches.jpg

DrDebby
07-26-2008, 03:53 PM
Please don't stop the lessons. I know I haven't said much. I've been hosting the sketching thread and other than that, I haven't drawn a thing in 3 weeks. But, I very much like reading about all the experiments people are doing. I'm going to do them myself at some point. Life, don't you know. I really want to try this stuff. Because I think it will teach me what color to reach for to get the color I want to show. Thank you so much for doing this.

Flame Lily
07-26-2008, 09:56 PM
when you do the swatches, and the value line. for instance,...do you start with the whole area covered with the base color, and just keep adding each color over the whole area?Yes... for 'lighter' area's you do lighter layers (less pressure) for darker area's you'd build up the color with layers (don't push too hard too quickly). For these tests though, you don't need to be precise or have the same technique as shown. It helps to have good materials, especially good quality pencils. Student grade pencils are harder to build color with.

To make one area 'smoother' do you just keep adding the same lightweigt color over it? When does it get to not show the lines and the paper underneath?Yes, but it helps to have very sharp pencils and a lighter touch for a smooth consistent look, if you want no lines and paper showing.

The colors in your drawing are really lovely Judi, you're doing better with your shading too... perhaps try to lighten up on your layers (try not to push down too hard) and maybe slant your pencil point a bit... one way to do this is to hold your pencil further back - nearer the opposite end of your sharp point. That way you won't push down as hard on the paper. Perhaps we can start another thread for 'techniques' - if it has been a while since one was started.

OK Debby, we'll see how things go... I may be rushing towards the end (to finish the second half of the wheel) because it's probably getting repetitive and boring, I have some more notes to share - will try to get to it next week.

frida
07-27-2008, 01:41 PM
Thank you Liesl for putting so much information together! :thumbsup:

BTW... what paper are you using for your colour swatches?

The only point I disagree about is the combination of burnishing and a loose (visible grain) CP application in the same piece. Instead of looking inconsistent it makes for a special style. What comes through as inconsistent are areas that look finished and others that are not, but as long as the techniques are honestly well done they enhance each other IMO.

Looking forward to the rest of the round "trip", which I hope to join before the end! :D

Flame Lily
07-29-2008, 01:22 AM
It's been a pleasure Raquel, thanks. I'm learning a lot and it has helped me improve some color choices in my own work.

I'm using Bristol Vellum the 300 series, it goes quickly - if I were to use Stonehenge or something similar it would take far too long for exercises like this (for me anyway) -- and too, if I mess up I don't have to worry about the paper being expensive. I do think, if a beginner wanted to learn how paper works for them, it is nice to use a sheet (of Stonehenge or watercolor paper or whatever) to do these kinds of exercises on - at least they'd become familiar with the paper and understand if they like it or not.

Another reason I'm using this paper for these exercises is... I can keep everything filed with the papers all being equal sizes and they're very thick, so if I page through them hundreds of times, they'll hold up. I'm not necessarily recommending the paper though, I would probably not use this to do any drawings on.

Regarding the point about a burnished area along side an unburnished area - I agree the inconsistency could come in where some areas appear finished and others not. And of course as you say, if something is done well and it suits the 'style' then absolutely, it'll be lovely.
That's why I said `might be inconsistent` because it just depends on what you're aiming for.

Looking forward to the rest of the round "trip" Me too. :) Thanks for your input!

Elen
07-29-2008, 10:20 AM
I`ve been quiet for some time,being distracted by number of things, but I`m lurking here as often,as I can.Please,don`t stop ,pretty please ? I understand,that it`s not a lot of fun for you-to do all job alone,but I doubt,that I could add something,as every thing you show is new for me. I`m looking forward to participate more ,as I`m having more free time now. Promise ! :heart:

ArtsyBren
07-31-2008, 01:35 PM
Thanks so much for all the wonderful information. I've learned much about color from this thread! I have been inspired to start my own "color" chart book. I own prismas, derwent inktense, derwent studio, dick blick and staedtler pencils. I took the color black for instance. One page is a sample of what dark red, dark blue, dark green to make black in each type of pencil would look like and I listed each pencil by each swatch of color. I now know just from a glance which pencils give me the best, darkest, truest black and which will give good blacks for shadows and whatnot...

I just also completed several shades of green doing this same exercise. Now, I can see the many shades of green and which pencils will make those shades since I have a hard time remembering the pencils I used to make the color.

I'm looking forward to your "orange" exercises. Your work has helped me immensely!

Elen
08-02-2008, 02:14 PM
Ok,I promised,and here`s my GREEN project. I`m not sure, that it gets into "blue-green" category,but for what it`s worth... :evil: Although,I`m sure, that somewhere there certainly is a patch of blueish green... and any other green too. :D
I almost forgot :o to say ,that this drawing is based on a beautiful photo by Naamer (WC! reference library) ,thank you very much, it`s a really great shot ! :thumbsup:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Sep-2008/22382-leafcropped.jpg

Judibelle
08-02-2008, 03:33 PM
Elen...HOW did you get those water droplets so perfectly?!? The whole thing is super-gorgeous....the shades of green are beautiful. Such a great job...I'm so impressed!
JB

Flame Lily
08-02-2008, 08:02 PM
Bren, thanks!

Excellent idea to make a book with swatches of color. This will be especially helpful in the beginning, a great way to get to know your pencils... after a while it will become second nature and you'll know instinctively which colors to pick.

Elen, oooooooh! This is beautiful! Gorgeous greens and the droplets of water are lovely. How did you do the veins? Did you impress the lines?

Thank you so much for your work in this thread as well, you have also helped me learn. :thumbsup:

Elen
08-02-2008, 09:22 PM
Judibelle,thank you so much,I`m glad you like it . About droplets... to tell the truth,I didn`t have a slightest idea,how was I going to draw them - first 4 I messed up, and then I just got lucky and "happy acccident" happened -I wasn`t really drawing a droplet,but I`ve got droplet. Then I studied it and duplicated all over the place. I`s really not difficult at all !
Also,I`ve read a thread some time ago and it helped me too,it`s not on droplets,it`s on cats eyes,but the principle,I think, is the same: http://http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231330 (http://http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231330)

Liesl,I`ve got "gorgeous greens" ,because you showed me how different colour combination coud work together,so it`s all thanks to you ! :heart: The veins are impressed indeed,I found myself a new toy - an orange tree stick,which is used initially for manicure,but I found a better use for it ! :D It has a flat point on one end and a sharp point on another,so it`s quite handy for impressing the lines.

Fiskaa
08-04-2008, 01:21 PM
Flame Lily - I agree, keep the thread going! I have an aceo that i'm working on using blue double complementaries, in my stream of consciousness style. I'll post it when I'm done.

Elen - Nice leaf!

frida
08-04-2008, 02:53 PM
Elen - very well done! Very nice variety on the greens, and the droplets show you were certainly observing the light and dark shapes within each. :thumbsup:

With impressed veins, I believe the trick is to let the pressure up at the end when impressing, as you have obviously done in most. Some leaves have marked, even veins that continue to the edge, but many don't. Another observation plus! :thumbsup:

Hi Liesl :wave: A very deserved credit to the leader of this colour trip!

frida
08-05-2008, 11:47 AM
Before we leave Greens in search of the next colour, I wanted to post where I am at with my G pepper.

When I was doing the swatches for it, I wrote:

I used Black Cherry, Tuscan Red and Clay Rose for a good gradation as the underpainting.
1. I used too much of the Dark Green, and the final colour is too far from the G I want for my pepper.
2. I realized the Grass G was much closer to the local colour I wanted, so I layered the Dark G as a lighter wash, and left more of the Grass G. This colour combination resulted from testing many!
3. The pepper I photographed and which colour I am trying to replicate looks fresher, livelier. I ended adding touches of Olive G, Celadon and Yellow Chartreuse.

Working on the whole thing, though, I ended up adding Pale Sage, Light Yellow G (discontinued?) and True G, to have smoother colour changes.

It looks a bit too Blue/G, but I like how it is starting to shape... I find it as difficult as glass, with all those reflections that cause so much change in value/colour.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Aug-2008/17153-Peppers6.jpg

Flame Lily
08-05-2008, 08:53 PM
Well Elen, the impressed lines are very impressive :D I've got to try that sometime!

Chris, I'm anxious to see the mix of blues + complements you use.

Raquel, I really didn't want to be a 'leader' - I like teaching (if I know what I'm talking about) but feel like I'm still learning as I go, so I'd prefer to just work through it and hope for discussion and participation (and correction if necessary). I do appreciate the encouragement, thanks so much.

Raquel, you made me chuckle... ''before we leave greens'' I'm on blue-violet already... but that's totally fine - there are no rules as to when to 'stop' or for 'being on track' or for going back -- anyone can post regarding any color at any time :D I think I'll be going backwards anyway... like back to greens when we talk about reds, which will be coming up soon hopefully.

Your pepper looks very interesting with all the shapes and value changes and reflections, how large is it... is this actual size? Really nice so far :thumbsup:

Flame Lily
08-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Feelin' the blues? I'm loving the blues and mixing them up got me on a 'cloud' trip. I got some new art supplies and have been playing instead of finishing up this post, sorry. It's been a long time since I ordered lots of new supplies in one go, so couldn't help it. Also, we have the most beautiful clouds outside right now thanks to the tropical storm Edouard - this will continue over the next few days and I'll be outside a lot taking photos.

Here's just a portion of the first cloud study I did, wanted to show it here because I used a (blue) double complementary mix (from post #84) for the sky/background.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Aug-2008/51101-LJH_Cloud_blue_orange.jpg

I'm busy doing more like this because I love the mood created by the oranges and blues.

I've now moved on to Blue-Violet. Had an eye opening experience while experimenting with complementary colors for blue-violet. Seems like for the first time since beginning the trip – I'm getting a real gray here – a nice dark gray too, you could even push it far enough to get a lovely black.

Circles this time... the squares were boring me :)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Aug-2008/51101-ljh_violet_blue.jpg


The first circle is with analogous colors: blue, blue-violet, violet, red-violet – this made a lovely blend with a smooth transition between colors.


The second circle is just blue-violet and yellow-orange. More blue-violet than it's complement, but this combination made me smile – it's a perfect gray. A nice cool gray (more evident on the paper than in this photo), would make a lovely shadow -- for a subject lit with warm light casting a cool shadow.

Shadow's are not plain black or gray... they too have color, if you look carefully you'll see this, especially when drawing from life – as photographs tend to flatten colors and it's harder to pick out the subtle colors then. If you observe shadows in real life you'll see what I mean. Even if you work from photo's that is fine, but document the colors you actually see when you take photographs, so that when you start your drawing you'll get the same color sense as you did when you actually saw the subject (and background) for real.


Third circle is an analogous complementary combination: blue-violet with yellow, yellow-orange and orange... made the gray a little warmer.



Forth circle is with a double complementary mix: blue-violet, yellow-orange, violet and yellow.



Last circle is also a double complementary mix: blue-violet, yellow-orange, red-violet, yellow-green. I think with continued mixing of this combination I would have a gorgeous black. Actually perhaps with all of the last four circles.

- - -

Balance and contrast are important of course when making color decisions. We touched on this before, talking about muddy mixes and when they're useful. I'm sure after making it almost half way around the wheel and understanding more about mixing colors, we're definitely ready to start talking about the importance of grays, neutrals, semi-neutrals or earthy colors and mud :)

Grays and appropriate muddy mixes can be as beautiful as pure hue mixes and used in the right places can enhance the purer colors. There is more than one way to mix for a gray and every subject and shadow will be different from the next (even in one full drawing/painting), so whereas these experiments are useful, the 'recipe' if you will – will have to be adjusted for whatever it is you are drawing.

It takes a lot of practice to learn how to use complements, sometimes you just want to slightly change the tone or intensity of a color, other times you will want a mix to create a gray or brown. Sometimes you'll use a complement directly adjacent on the color wheel and other times a near complement, like in the examples above.

- - -

So, what is mud exactly? This is debatable but I'll try to explain it as I understand it...

We've learned that mixing a yellow and a blue can make green, or a blue and a red can make violet – well, if you're going for a pure vibrant color, you'll want to make sure you use a purer blue and a purer red for violet. If you use just 'any' yellow and 'any' blue in your collection of pencils – you might get a totally different green to what you're actually going for, you might get a muddy green instead of a bright, clean green.

There are times as mentioned before where you may 'want' a dirty color – but when mud happens by accident it can be very disappointing and very difficult to fix. Sure it's possible to erase, but occasionally you can not erase all the way back to the beginning and that 'dirty/mud' will still be present and produce unfavorable results. This can happen when you're 'making decisions' while working, changing your mind in between colors, or trying to figure out which color to use while you're actually working on your drawing... until you are familiar with ''which combinations make mud'' – it's better to rather work out before hand using color swatches before you begin your actual piece.

If you're mixing colors in an attempt to achieve a pure, intense, bright color or a clean mix – you will want to use two of the primary colors needed of course. As soon as a third is introduced into the mix, the mix will become muddy... or brown... or gray. This is why as Raquel has mentioned before I think, you'll want to choose two primaries that have no bias toward a third primary.

When it is difficult to describe the color mix you are looking at or difficult to distinguish any particular color in your mix... that is mud. Not every gray or every brown mix is dirty or muddy to me though, usually when I say I've made 'mud' it's because I've made an undesirable flat or dull mix – where one was not intended.

Sometimes you'll want to achieve darker values using complements, when a less intense color is desired, sometimes you'll want to go darker without moving towards gray or brown and to keep the colors 'brighter' or more 'colorful' you could just use analogous colors or darker pencils such as indigo blue for blues and greens and a dark rusty red or brown for oranges and yellows etc. But study your subject and determine what is needed for a well balanced end result – inevitably (depending on your style) you will need neutrals and semi-neutrals in every piece and it is very useful or, I'd rather like to say, necessary to study color theory and understand the relationships between colors and how they work together (or don't work together) and how you can translate the study of color to the way colored pencils as a medium works, because they are very different from mixing paints :)

[I'm not the best writer as you can tell, but I do hope this little episode (in the drama > ''Trip around the color wheel'' or ''As the wheel turns'' :lol: ) has been clearer than mud]

frida
08-06-2008, 03:02 PM
Raquel, I really didn't want to be a 'leader' - I like teaching (if I know what I'm talking about) but feel like I'm still learning as I go, so I'd prefer to just work through it and hope for discussion and participation (and correction if necessary). I do appreciate the encouragement, thanks so much... you made me chuckle... ''before we leave greens'' I'm on blue-violet already... but that's totally fine - there are no rules as to when to 'stop' or for 'being on track' or for going back -- anyone can post regarding any color at any time :D I think I'll be going backwards anyway... like back to greens when we talk about reds, which will be coming up soon hopefully.
Your pepper looks very interesting with all the shapes and value changes and reflections, how large is it... is this actual size? Really nice so far :thumbsup:
Well, Liesl. You took the initiative to start this very informative thread on colour, so in my book that makes you a leader! :D It's good, especially with your understated, respectful and encouraging delivery... :thumbsup: Anyone who is sharing experience and has no problem saying they are learning has a big plus on her side in my life book... ;)

The Green pepper is 3.5" in diameter, and the three peppers are arranged on a horizontal 6 x 12" format, which I never used before.

When I started the Orange one, I felt I didn't know what I was doing. A while into it I started reaching for the pencils intuitively. When I started the Green, the same thing happened. At this point I am feeling a bit more comfortable with it.

Since you don't mind the colours out of sequence, I am posting the Orange one, which I also scanned smaller than the original:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Aug-2008/17153-PeppOrange3.jpg

I am not after photo realism, but this is the way it worked out. It gave me a feel for the way CP can be pushed. On this one I also included more Orange pencils to help make the colour passages smoother.

Elen
08-07-2008, 08:03 AM
It`s most intresting and enlighting ! :clap: I`ll need to learn all that you wrote by heart. For me,you are a humangorously good writer! :heart:
I always wondered,why I`m not getting the desired colour by mixing any blue and any yellow... They are blue and yellow after all,and must behave,like they should... I have to say,that I`m having problems with finding the pencil, which would give a pure green, or red, or blue...I mean,there are lots and lots of them! How can you tell, that the pencil has a pure colour,and doesn`t have a bias to any other shade ? Onl by mixing them to see,if they make a grey ? Or is there a trick, which I don`t yet know ? (I hope, that there IS a trick... :rolleyes:)
Frida, your pepper is fabulous ! :clap: Both of them Delicious ! I think i see a line, where you intended a shadow to be,and I wanted to ask - how do you know,where the shadow starts and how far will it reach ? I tend to just put some darker colour underneath the thing I`m drawing,sometimes it works and sometimes the subject doesn`t seem to be grounded... :rolleyes:

DrDebby
08-07-2008, 04:38 PM
Elen - there is a great book I just borrowed from the library because I was having the same sorts of questions. It's called "Blue and Yellow don't make Green" by Michael Wilcox.

The fact of the matter is that the color theory about mixing colors came from colored light made from breaking white light. In the pigment of our artistic media we don't have pure colors. Where light is additive color, you add the colors back together and you get white, pigment is subtractive color. When you mix pigments together you get black.

What the author explained was that we see the color reflected back from the pigment and our eyes read it as "yellow" But the yellow is also reflecting a little bit of orange, for instance. When you take a "blue" that has a little bit of violet in it and mix it with the yellow with a little bit of orange with it, the colors cancel each other out. The "blue" pigment we picked is reflecting blue light and violet light and absorbing the rest. The "yellow" pigment we picked is reflecting yellow and orange. Put them together and the blue pigment is absorbing the yellow and orange, while the yellow pigment is busy absorbing the blue and violet. The end result is, well, a muddy reddish color since the violet and orange in the example both have a touch of red in them. There are times you want that color. The trick is to learn about the pigments and know ahead of time how they will react to each other. To truly get a green, you need a pigment that is a blue with a little green and a yellow with a little green, then green will be reflected when they are put together. I've greatly simplified what the author was saying, but that's the gist of it.

I found the whole thing fascinating. I'm looking at my pencils in a whole new light.

Flame Lily
08-07-2008, 06:38 PM
Oh Raquel, the orange one looks positively delicious!

How can you tell, that the pencil has a pure colour,and doesn`t have a bias to any other shade ? Onl by mixing them to see,if they make a grey ?A pure hue (and purer pencil color) will be more intense, I believe. It'll be bright and clean. If it has a lower intensity... it'll be duller - toned down or more gray yes ... and if you mix with such a pencil it will produce dull(er) mix.

Here's another way to look at it... the further apart two colors are from each other on the color wheel (that you want to mix)... the less intense the mix will be.
So, if you wanted to mix a green color with higher intensity, you'd want to mix a pure yellow that does not have ANY orange in it, (if anything it could lean more towards green... or a cooler yellow) with a blue that does not have ANY red in it. So, a blue-violet would be out - unless you want to lower intensity. You'd want a pure blue or a blue that tends to lean towards green.

I think this is correct and I hope it makes sense. You'd have to line up your yellows and blues (or whatever mix you choose) and try this out. I promise, after you've done these types of exercises a few times, you will become more familiar with your colors and you'll easily be able to spot and distinguish colors that are purer and when you're looking for a less intense color... which ones to pick up etc.

Elen, I've seen your latest sketches and your color sense is very good as far as I can tell.

I think the trick as you put it - lies in understanding how color works in theory. I'm still experimenting and still studying it, the more I learn the more I realize there is so much more to learn :) It is very exciting.

Debby, I chuckled at the title of the book -- sounds like it would be an interesting read... the science behind 'color' is incredibly fascinating. I guess I should have read your post before writing a reply to Elen... I think what you've said makes a lot of sense and probably explains it better than I did. Thanks very much.

Elen
08-07-2008, 07:06 PM
DrDebby,I think I need to look up that book in the library . Or even buy it, if it is available. Your explanation makes a perfect sense for me, I think,I start to understand, what it`s all is about ! Thank you ! :heart:

Oh I guess I should have read your post before writing a reply to Elen... I think what you've said makes a lot of sense and probably explains it better than I did. Thanks very much.
I don`t mind ,I think, the more times something is described to me, the better I understand that. :heart: Thank you very much! I feel,lke I`m putting a puzzle together and the whole picture begins to emerge little by little .
That`s very kind of you to say that about my sketches, the only problem is,I never intended those objects to be of that colour... :D My process of drawing is a combination of happy and unhappy events... the last prevailing. :evil:

frida
08-08-2008, 01:41 PM
There are so many colour systems and theories that I believe anything we are saying here would be debatable!

I will offer you another description Elen, that has helped me...

One of the argued points, that BTW I take as my starting point for colour, is the idea that the primaries Y - R - B are colours that cannot be mixed using others.

The other is relying on a 12-hue colour wheel such as Liesl's at the very beginning. If you take basic Y, you can see only Y, while its two closest neighbours, one on one side has a bit of B, on the other a bit of R. Those two neighbours are the biased Yellows. The same goes for R and B. Those six basic colours would make, in the smallest nutshell, the biased colour wheel.

Mixing your colours just to see what happens will sharpen your sense of colour enormously, and give you more confidence when you wonder which pencil to use for what.

The best training I ever had that started me appreciating colour, was using a wet medium such as gouache in the colours used to print colour separation: Yellow, Magenta and Cyan (the "light" colours) Incidentally, quoting from one of my colour books: "these light colours are the same pigment colors used by a painter".

I believe any wet medium is better for those initial exercises, as when you mix them the changes are happening in front of your eyes, which is also terribly exciting. With CP being translucent, the mixing is slower, optical, and we tend to reach for that elusive pencil that fits exactly where we want at a point when the eye doesn't still SEE the difference. Doing an exercise such as this with gouache is a wonderful starting point, that eventually will lead to knowing not only which CP is the right one, but how to modify it exactly to be the hue we are after!

After doing the colour wheel, which IMO is a great tool, albeit conventional, exercises I recommend to train the eye, are 1. get out all your coloured pencils in all brands (including Crayolas, your children's crayons and so on, providing the colour shows on the casing), or 2. collect pieces of coloured paper from magazines or any other paper. 3. spend time arranging them in order from cooler to warmer and viceversa, until the last one is in perfect sequence with the first.

Elen
08-08-2008, 02:14 PM
1. get out all your coloured pencils in all brands (including Crayolas, your children's crayons and so on, providing the colour shows on the casing), or 2. collect pieces of coloured paper from magazines or any other paper. 3. spend time arranging them in order from cooler to warmer and viceversa, until the last one is in perfect sequence with the first.
Thank`s, Raquel !
I decided to try it and couldn`t pull it off ! :rolleyes: I have too many pencils, which doesn`t fit ... like they should. :evil: My husband saw me and said,that he knew,that pencils are affecting me, but he never thought,that I would go completely ga-ga... :D:D:D

Fiskaa
08-08-2008, 07:30 PM
A pure hue (and purer pencil color) will be more intense, I believe. It'll be bright and clean. If it has a lower intensity... it'll be duller - toned down or more gray yes ... and if you mix with such a pencil it will produce dull(er) mix.

Here's another way to look at it... the further apart two colors are from each other on the color wheel (that you want to mix)... the less intense the mix will be.
So, if you wanted to mix a green color with higher intensity, you'd want to mix a pure yellow that does not have ANY orange in it, (if anything it could lean more towards green... or a cooler yellow) with a blue that does not have ANY red in it. So, a blue-violet would be out - unless you want to lower intensity. You'd want a pure blue or a blue that tends to lean towards green.

That is some really good info! Thanks!:thumbsup:

Nakiska
08-28-2008, 03:33 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: THANK YOU!!! How I missed this post the last few days is beyond me, but I'm sooo glad I found it! I'm totally new to color, infact color terrrrrrrifies me, but now I'm actually EXCITED to get started playing with it in a more "structured" way. Instead of diving into my next attempt, I'm going to first make a color wheel/chart with my limited amount of pencils and pastels and then I think I'll have a more positive success with my next piece.

I totally LOVED the picture done in greens, without using any green! AWESOME!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Toni

frida
08-29-2008, 02:37 PM
Hi Toni! :wave: Looking forward to your input...

I got derailed by a big project, but hope to come back to the thread soon. :)

minbrown7
08-29-2008, 03:17 PM
Thankyou so much for the brilliant information given in this thread. I have only just picked up on it. I am off to sort my pencils, getsome paper and play with colour.
Marion

HarvestMoon
08-31-2008, 10:49 AM
totally amazing thread- thank you so much....I have managed to avoid this subject since my junior year in high school....in which I tried to skip the 3rd year of art (color theory)- and jump back in the 4th year (oil painting)....and found out my senior year you could not really do that :crying: so I have had a grudge against the color wheel ever since!

but printed this out (poor printer)....and will read it in detail from the favorite armchair....

PS- please consider turning this into a book!

Flame Lily
08-31-2008, 05:43 PM
Toni, I too am excited you found the thread, I hope trying a color wheel and doing some experimenting with color will help you with your work - even if you don't learn something about color, you'll at least learn something about your pencils and your technique :)

I got derailed by a big project, but hope to come back to the thread soon.Raquel, you and me both :lol:

Marion, that's wonderful, I hope you have fun and please feel free to share what you discover any time!

Linda, thank you :) I hope you get a chance to try this out, you have those lovely new Luminance pencils don't you? Ohhh, would love to see some color combination swatches done with them.

- - - - - - - - -

Where to go from here... let's see – violet is the next hue on the trip. There have been plenty of mixes throughout the thread, so we know that if you add a little violet to yellow, you'll get a lower intensity yellow and if you add a little yellow to violet you'll get a grayer, duller violet. And of course red and blue make violet. ? ? What else ? ? I am going to have to put my thinking cap on.

I have tried 3 small drawings in the last couple of weeks using violet as the local color and I guess violet is not one of my favorite colors (or perhaps the fact that it is so dark in value and the subjects I'm enjoying right now are not all that dark) but nothing with violet is working out, the drawings were not successful. I am trying one last time, so we'll see what happens.

azulparsnip
09-01-2008, 11:59 PM
I'm starting thru this thread coloring as I go and learning alot - thanks

dippin'colors
09-05-2008, 02:26 PM
Your posts have been soooooo informative and easy to follow! I wish I had been able to read some of this fabulous information two years ago! Thank you!

frida
09-05-2008, 06:00 PM
Your posts have been soooooo informative and easy to follow! I wish I had been able to read some of this fabulous information two years ago! Thank you!
It's never too late. Learn and enjoy!!! (Grandma Raquel)

Flame Lily
09-12-2008, 05:31 PM
azulparsnip & dippin'colors, thanks and welcome!

- - -

It turns out... violet is not one of my favorite colors. It took a few tries to come up with something (somewhat) 'violet'.
Here is a small drawing of an Iris (with help from a reference in the image library (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=62837) | mainly for the shape)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2008/51101-LJH_Iris_Violet.jpg

Although I used my violet (prismacolor) pencil, I went over the violet with red-violet (mulberry), because the color combination appeals to me more.

Here are a couple of swatches to show what I mean...

This one is just the violet pencil
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2008/51101-Violet_swatch1.jpg

and this one has some red-violet mixed in
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2008/51101-Violet_swatch2.jpg


I really like the combination of violet, red and yellow-orange as shown in these swatches - the first one has the colors side by side and the second has them blended together
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2008/51101-Violet_swatch3.jpg
They look gorgeous on paper and I did use this combination on the Iris drawing in some places, which is hard to see on the photo.


Although I'm not very fond of 'violet' by itself, the swatches I worked on for this, helped me to see that it is indeed very useful. I need to explore this more and mix colors to get my browns in the future, instead of using brown pencils alone - when I look at the following swatch, it looks like it would be great for beach sand - this is violet, red, yellow-orange and yellow-green.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Sep-2008/51101-Violet_swatch4.jpg

Sien
09-13-2008, 05:00 PM
I really love this thread, especially the color swatches..very insightful!
I wonder though, somewhere along you stopped putting in the names of the used prisma's. Could you add them? Or have I missed the reason for that?
I have to find out and learn everything for myself ofcourse, but because of monitor-differences I'm afraid I haven't got the same color in front of me as you've got..

frida
09-13-2008, 09:44 PM
Beautiful "combination of violet, red and yellow-orange"! Separate they make a dreamy colour symphony...

I second Sien's request. Thank you!

Flame Lily
09-17-2008, 02:51 PM
Hi Sien, I stopped doing the squares - got tired of the format, they were also a lot of work with the little squares & names underneath LOL. I think the only place where I didn't name the specific pencil names was in post #103 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7021280&postcount=103)? Let me know if there was another area you feel was lacking info.

Sort of have a goal I guess, which is to try and encourage those following to choose colors instinctively. To develop that awareness for which colors to chose to make satisfactory mixes etc.

I understand what you mean about monitors and seeing colors differently - and not to mention again... my photography (lack of) skills :D , that is one reason (besides everyone having different pencil brands) why it's a good idea to make your own color wheel using your pencil brand of choice, for this project... try to find pencils that are pure in color and intense, ones that match each hue name as close as possible.

Throughout this thread so far I've been using Prismacolors mostly, with intention to use other brands in the future and then to hopefully later - specifically use pencils that have the best lightfast ratings, once we all understand how this color mixing business works :) To be honest, I was hoping others who use different brands would have done similar exercises and shared them, but there has been less discussion than I was expecting.

These are the main pencils I have used throughout the thread so far and will use the rest of the way around the wheel. Image is from my website...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Sep-2008/51101-Pencil_Colors_by_Liesl_Huddleston.jpg

So for post #103 (blue-violets) I listed hue names for the color swatches, but these are the Prismacolor's used, Violet-Blue, True Blue, Violet and Mulberry, Spanish Orange and Chartreuse.
Post #120 (violets) I used Prismacolor's again for the color swatches... Violet, Mulberry, Magenta, Spanish Orange, Chartreuse.

For my drawings I've been using the same or similar color combinations, but not necessarily these exact same pencils. I hope folks will walk away doing their own thing realizing above all - that they can use whatever works best for them, not necessarily the same method or same pencils as I use, and if a color mixture 'does not work' then to understand the reason why it doesn't work... hopefully those reasons have been explained throughout the thread and will continually be explained as we move forward.

I hope this helps :) Let me know if it doesn't :wave:

Sien
09-17-2008, 04:00 PM
It was indeed post 103 and 120, but I liked the colors so much I wondered..
I use prisma's along with this thread, to try it out. I've been wanting to participate more and add my own color tries, as I have somewhere around 800+ pencils (all different colors and brands) because I'm also a bit of a collector. But it is a huge task and I'm starting my own business and I'm still in college, so it's been busy enough :)

I love this thread though, and I'll participate with more as soon as I can.


(btw, I like the circles better than the squares too ;))

(and erm..I can't find your website)

frida
09-17-2008, 05:35 PM
Beautiful "combination of violet, red and yellow-orange"! Separate they make a dreamy colour symphony... I second Sien's request. Thank you!
So, which Red and Yellow-Orange? Maybe Yellowed Orange?

Flame Lily
09-17-2008, 06:45 PM
Hey Sien, I totally understand about having a lot going on and not being able to participate on the forum as much as you'd like. I home-school my two sons, they're 7 years apart - so as you can image it's a big job. It's also my top priority (besides feeding them and cleaning up afterwards that is :lol: )

I'm glad you like the thread, I'm enjoying it also. ... And as you've discovered - it helps to try out these kinds of exercises.

My site is coloredpencilpoints.com - I have tried to prevent talking about it on here in an attempt to keep the focus on WetCanvas - also because it does not have a lot of information yet and at the present time I can not add to it, though I hope to eventually.
Just copied and pasted those colors and names from it into the post above to save some time.

Raquel, the image posted in post #123 shows the Prismacolors I've used to match the hue names, so... Red is Prisma's Magenta, Yellow-orange is Prisma's Spanish Orange. Now, someone else may choose other pencil colors if they feel other pencil's match the hue's better... these are just the one's that I've found work for me. I know for example that Magenta is not a very light-fast pencil, but for experiments in color mixing, I've found the Magenta (for Red) mixes very well without dulling when you don't need dulling to happen etc.

robertsloan2
09-21-2008, 10:53 AM
I've read this entire thread and I'm following along with interest. I haven't done all the exercises with my Prismacolors, but I use these combinations so many times that they make me smile every time I see them! The round examples were particularly lovely and made me think of red grapes. I've got to do a red-grapes still life sometime using that combination!

Also, your twelve bright spectral hues are wonderful! That's a great selection in itself. I'm tempted when I use up my 12 color Portfolio set, to replace what's in it with those hues and keep that as a specific palette!

ManedWolf
09-26-2008, 07:33 AM
Fine thoughts, good analyzing, beautiful drawings!

There is a book that I recommend to each & everyone: Farver i farver (in Danish, ca. 1960) = Vδrien kirja (in Finnish, ca. 1960) = Handbook of Colour (yes, in English!) by Kornerup & Wanscher. It explains the physical phenomenon of color & how we see colors & contains a very handy 30 color notebook system & gives a lot of information about color names.

I was eight when I got my own one (in Finnish!) - it wasn't exactly cheap. It's a treasure.

Heikki *never inserts a smiley*

Flame Lily
10-11-2008, 07:13 PM
Thanks for your comments Robert. I am glad you've found this thread useful, I know what you mean about seeing a color scheme or a mixed swatch and having it spark an idea or reminding you about something you'd like to draw - that happens to me too :D

I agree that the 12 pencils used for the color wheel here are wonderful and bright - it is good to practice with these because their intensity and purity are well suited for these exercises, I am about to make a post where I'll just remind folks though that some of them - like Magenta and Poppy Red and possibly others may be fugitive.

Thanks Wolf, it is very interesting to delve into how our eyes see color - thanks for the book recommendation.

Flame Lily
10-11-2008, 07:13 PM
Working with red now, the last of the three primary colors (you can't mix any colors to get a pure red).
We may go back and revisit the violets at a later stage, I've discovered – due to the last experiments that violets work wonderfully in shadows and I've been using them a lot for that.
As mentioned before, this thread barely touches on each color (or hue on the wheel) and so to fully discover the potential of each color, you'd have to do many experiments, this is what I've been doing – sometimes they work well, sometimes they're a real mess.

Sometimes I enjoy working from a photograph, other times I enjoy creating something on my own – a good exercise because it forces me to make decisions about a color scheme before hand. You can do that too with a photograph, you do not have to reproduce a photo exactly as you see it – you can develop a color scheme that is much better than your reference or change the mood by enhancing and exaggerating color.

Then there are times when I am working with color experiments – like the following swatches – and an image or a memory pops into mind. As soon as I saw the red mixes I was trying for this post – I thought ''geraniums!'' Though the geraniums I had in mind are a little more red, pink and red-violet like my swatches, than the geraniums in the photo below which are more red to red-orange.



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2008/51101-red_swatches_flamelily.jpg

- The first circle is red (PC Magenta) and red-orange (PC Poppy Red)
- Next is red (PC Magenta) and red-violet (PC Mulberry)
- Then red (PC Magenta) and yellow-orange (PC Spanish Orange)
- The green circle is yellow-green (PC Chartreuse), green (PC True Green) and then darkened with red (PC Magenta)
- Last circle is red (PC Magenta), red-orange (PC Poppy Red) and green (PC True Green) – it looks more brown in real life



Here is a portion of a photo from the WC Reference Image Library (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=54129) (by stephie20) of geraniums, you can see some of the colors are close to the swatches above -- of course I would need more layers to be successful, but this gives you an idea.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2008/51101-Geraniums.jpg

If I were to use this photo as a reference, I may go with my swatches rather and therefore tone down the bright red-orange in some areas.
Otherwise if I were to stay with the colors in the photo, I'd add more yellow-orange to my reds.



Now, using the same swatches above, if we wanted to go darker with these colors - there are a number of ways to go about doing that. To go darker, you can use the complement for a lively neutral/grayer shade [greens mixed in with the reds]. Remember that complements neutralize each other because they include all three primary colors (red, yellow and blue). When you want to go darker with red, you can use a green to get a brown – I got a real good dark, grayish brown black :) when I mixed red (PC Magenta), yellow-orange (PC Spanish Orange) and a dark green (PC Dark Green). Depending on what you've mixed with the red, you could use a dark purple (PC Black Grape) or violet or a dark blue (PC Indigo Blue) or even a darker red. I've noticed that if I add yellows or the yellow-orange – I get earthier grays. It would be a worthy exercise to make a chart of grays and browns with various mixes – that's on my to do list (which is very long :) )

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Oct-2008/51101-red_swatches_flamelily2.jpg

These are the same circle swatches as above, except they've been darkened with various pencils.

- First one was darkened with a darker red pencil (Van Gogh Permanent Red)
- Next one was darkened with a dark purple (PC Black Grape)
- Third was darkened with dark green (PC Dark Green) – this could be used to darken any of the red mixes
- The green was slightly darkened with red (PC Magenta) and very dark blue (PC Indigo Blue) – of course you could go much darker by continuing with the red or blue depending on the look you want
- Lastly the brownish mix was darkened further with dark green (PC Dark Green)



There are of course many more ways to mix other colors with reds and you probably have a variety of red pencils. You will have to become familiar with which reds mix well with complements, as your red pencils will either lean over to red-orange or red-violet. This is the main reason that I use PC Magenta for this thread because it appears to me anyway, that it is a purer red and does not (imo) lean over to either orange or violet (yellow or blue).

So, again... regarding lightfastness... I have used certain pencil colors in this thread that closely match the colors on a color wheel and serve well for the purposes of learning how to mix colors correctly.

Non-lightfast / fugitive or non-permanent colors are those that may fade or change color over time – usually as a result or effect of light, but sometimes this can even happen in storage. If you're wanting to sell your work, you need to investigate about the lightfastness of your colors. The ratings provided by the manufacturers may not be completely accurate. The Colored Pencil Society of America (CPSA) sells a booklet which has documented which pencils are lightfast and those which are not – they have tested all brands. Otherwise, you can try search online or do your own tests.

I have been working with colored pencils for around 4 years now, I've not yet witnessed any color changing or fading in the works I've completed that I still own, however, I am aware of the fact that this can happen and understand that it is good practice to try and avoid using colors that might fade or change color over time. I also recommend to anyone who buys art from me, to avoid hanging the pieces in direct light or if the artwork is stored or framed, it should be surrounded by acid-free materials.

We can start another thread on the forum about this - or search other threads that have discussed lightfastness for more information.

ManedWolf
10-12-2008, 08:17 AM
Flame Lily: I have been working with colored pencils for around 4 years now, I've not yet witnessed any color changing or fading in the works I've completed that I still own, however, I am aware of the fact that this can happen and understand that it is good practice to try and avoid using colors that might fade or change color over time. ...

We can start another thread on the forum about this - or search other threads that have discussed lightfastness for more information.

The European color pencil overview - including lightfastness ratings of several brands - will come...

Isaac M.M.
12-01-2008, 05:59 PM
I wanted to try, this thread is very interesting to me since I'm leaving also the "monochromate" club and turning into color. So, here it is my first try. I added a blue background.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Dec-2008/97351-flower02.jpg
Background matters :thumbsup:
Greetings,
Isaac

Flame Lily
12-02-2008, 12:39 AM
Hi Isaac, glad to hear you're turning to color! Welcome to CP :) This is indeed colorful, the yellows stand out nicely, love the variations in the darker yellows - very good for your first try, keep working and you'll learn something new with every piece. Hope to see you posting more in the forum.

Hoping to get back to this thread soon to post some more swatches and mixes - just had to take a break for a little while, have been drawing a lot though, so will try to get back here and share soon :wave:

Robb
01-14-2009, 12:20 PM
Take your time. The effort you have made with this subject is phenomenal.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: yes 2 thumbs up!!
I have been working with oil paint. As a gift this year a friend of mine lent me a book about realism pet portraits with coloured pencils. I was hooked. I went out and bought a 72 pk of Prisma coloured pencils. Also bought some loose colours as well. I have found a gem with this thread you have created.
I am looking forward with great, great enthusiasm to what you will share next with us.

This trip around the colour wheel is prcieless...keep up the great work.

Rob Eh!

Flame Lily
01-15-2009, 07:34 PM
Thank you Rob! Good to have you here with us :)
- . - . -

Red-orange, orange and yellow-orange will finish this up, I know I could do them separately, but does everyone really want to wait another 3-6 months? :)

If you're interested in mixing red-orange and orange with complements, refer back to post #84, try some swatches that have the blue-green down first and then see if there is a change when you use red-orange first. I tried that and here are my results. A warmer gray when there is more red-orange (Prisma's Poppy Red) and a cooler gray when placing a layer of blue-green (Prisma's Aquamarine) down first and more of it than the red-orange. I guess you could call this a low intensity or dull red and a really dull or low intensity blue on the right. It's easier to see on the actual swatch compared to the photo.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-poppyred_aquamarine.jpg

.
You can refer back to post #103 for mixes using yellow-orange and blue-violet. The blue-violet (Prisma's Violet Blue) was dominant then, so just did a quick swatch here to show you where the yellow-orange (Prisma's Spanish Orange) is dominant, putting the y-o down first. Quite different.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-yelloworange_violetblue.jpg


Whenever I think of dramatic oranges and yellows with their complements – I think of Turner. For example, here are two of his paintings - pictures from the amazing Art Renewal Center site, you've got to spend some time there and read... incredible...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-Turner_Goldau.jpg
J.M.W. Turner, Goldau, Watercolor on Paper (1841) (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=28601)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-Turner_The_fighting_-Temeraire-_tugged_to_her_last_Berth_to_be_broken_up.jpg
J.M.W. Turner, The Fighting 'Tιmιraire' tugged to her last Berth to be broken up, Oil on Canvas (1838) (http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=15005)

Study the colors, look closely (the links will take you to much larger images) and work out what combinations you would use to achieve these colors. Try to copy the colors making swatches or try a photograph or something from life with similar colors.

Look at this photograph from snowgoose in the reference image library (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=68280). With something like this, you could use a similar color scheme as Turner's paintings above.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-sunsetfromril.jpg

Here are some swatches, inspired by the above images, but using the remaining colors we have to complete the wheel...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-yellowtoredorange.jpg

- First circle is yellow-orange, orange and red-orange (Prisma's Spanish Orange, Orange & Poppy Red)
- Second is yellow-orange, orange and blue (Same Prisma's as before + True Blue)
- Third is the same as the first circle with blue-violet added (Same + Prisma's Violet Blue)
- Last is the same as the first circle with red-violet and blue added (Same + Prisma's Mulberry)


Whether you study a painting by an old master or have a photo you're studying to use as a reference, or even when you want to draw from life... what do you ask yourself about the colors and how do you know what colors to use? We'll look at another couple of images...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-monet_bouquetofsunflowers.jpg
Claude Oscar Monet, Bouquet of Sunflowers, Oil on canvas (1880) (http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/full.php?ID=3295)

and this photograph from me Flame Lily in the reference image library (http://www.wetcanvas.com/RefLib/showphoto.php?photo=41832)...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-51101Sunflower_by_FlameLily.jpg


How DO we know what colors to choose? What color is it? Well...
- We see it is yellow to orange, but how yellow – does it lean towards red or in the opposite direction towards green?
- Is it pure or is it a little dull?
- Is it light or dark -- and is it lighter or darker than what it is next to?

Get in the habit of asking yourself these questions when choosing your colors. Below I've numbered a couple of areas of color with white numbers, hope you can see them...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-monet_bouquetofsunflowers_withnumbers.jpg . . . . . http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2009/51101-51101Sunflower_by_FlameLily_withnumbers.jpg

When I look at these colors numbered here, I've determined that...

1. It's orange / red-orange, leaning to yellow obviously, slightly dull or less intense. Then as compared to the dark center of the sunflower it is lighter in value, but similar to the value of the background. This section closer to the center is darker than the edges of the petals.

2. Yellow, leaning slightly to yellow-green. Brighter than other portions of the flower and lighter in value as well compared to the background and the rest of the flower.

I know the colors in the photo are not exactly the same as the painting, but similar, I guess the point of showing the two are so that you can see – the flower is not yellow, it's not orange – it's that and so much more. A mixture of colors, lights and darks and even grays. Even on a single petal, the color is not consistent – there are variations there.


So in conclusion and in summary...

Be aware of the relationships of color, and the aspects of color, the names of the hues/colors, how to describe them and what you are seeing, which way they are leaning, study references, ask yourself questions in the way described above, copy old masters for practice - look at lots of references when you pick a subject to draw and so on.
There is usually color in everything, even in the shade, colors reflect off each other and they affect each other as well - the more you understand about how colors interact with each other, the better your work will be.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you follow your references exactly, develop your own way of interpreting what you see, exaggerate some colors and values etc., de-emphasize others, push yourself to learn and grow because the drama and happens in the contrasts of value, color, intensity etc. And it doesn't matter what artist brand pencils you use - they're all good.


Thank you for coming along with me on the ride around the wheel, thanks to Elen for the whole idea and for those of you who tried some of this, even if you didn't post. I know I learned a lot and have much more to learn, but this was a good spring board. It may not be the end of this thread... but it's the end of the swatchy trip around the color wheel :) I hope you all continue to discover what you can do with color, I have no doubts that you will -- and share with us when you find something new or something that works! Thanks!

Judibelle
01-16-2009, 07:54 AM
Thank you for this whole 'trip'. It has been most helpful and informative, and although I havent posted along the way, I have followed it and tried the examples, (with varying results).
I expect to come back to it, time and again, as I continue to explore the wonderful world of color....
With much gratitude for this invaluable help,
Judi (JB)

TessDB
01-16-2009, 08:29 AM
Wonderful finish to this!
Thank you sooooo much for your hard work!

Rosemary

DrDebby
01-16-2009, 09:47 AM
Thank you very much for all your hard work. I've learned so much about color just reading. I've been playing with swatches myself, but not posting. (sorry :o). I now understand better how to pick a color when I'm staring at my reference. Not mastered yet, but better than I was. So, thank you again.

Elen
01-18-2009, 11:40 AM
It is so good to see you again,Liesl ! I missed you very much. Sorry to hear,that you were ill,I hope you are feeling better now.
Ermm... What was that about "thank`s for the whole idea" thing ? I didn`t do that! :D All praise must be your`s, because you did an exceptionally good job , organizing and guiding us through the trip around the colour wheel -noone has been lost, everyone is safe and sound and knows now much more about the colour - all thank`s to you ! ( And, as i remember it, you said in the beginning, that you wouldn`t like to make ALL job by yourself, and were hoping for some other people to join in ( like myself,for example ) ( and even worse,I promised to !!! ) and you had to do it all by yourself in the end. :o :o :o
So, HURRAY to Liesl !!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
THANK YOU for all the hard work,which you had to do alone, this thread is full of priceless information and is and will be much of help to anyone,who is interested in more knowledge about the colour.
:heart: Thank you so much ! :heart:

Fiskaa
02-10-2009, 12:39 AM
Flame Lily - I agree, keep the thread going! I have an aceo that i'm working on using blue double complementaries, in my stream of consciousness style. I'll post it when I'm done.

As promised using Blue Violet, Yellowed Orange, Orange and True Blue (Prismacolor) which is a Double Complementary scheme.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Feb-2009/142122-blorangeviellowfinal.jpg

Misty Morn
02-10-2009, 11:23 AM
Thanks Flame Lily, love the information on color mixing hope you continue through the color wheel, how can I copy and paste the color swatch's so I can refer to them if I need to. Great information!

Misty Morn

Lorraine Paris
02-19-2009, 10:04 AM
I like your colour mixing tips and that lemon is also great. I've made a print out of the tips so I can try them myself. Thanks.

Busy Pencil
05-20-2009, 03:23 PM
I can see I'm going to have to study this thread on Color very closely.
Mixing Prisma is a bit harder than Oils or acrylics. I haven't posted much lately and yes I'm still here. May try out some projects on this thread. I am sure they would help me a lot. Jan Grundas

noodle1
05-20-2009, 04:29 PM
This is such a gift, thank you so much, invaluable reference. I have sheets and sheets of side papers where I've "tested"..lol you have just given me a pass into heaven!

Elaine

Busy Pencil
06-06-2009, 01:54 PM
Thank you Flame for this wonderful opportunity to study the color wheel. I have been doing the exercises but am a bit behind. It is a great learning tool and I don't want you to think I am just watching. Thank you Janet G.:clap:

Tampa Lish
06-11-2009, 06:53 PM
Since this library posting is up (thank you Busy), I'd like to say that this one specific lesson has given me a HUGE advantage starting CP. This is the third time I've read the entire posting and I know I'll refer to it often. Thank you so much for the time to put this together. It's really amazing.

Busy Pencil
06-24-2009, 02:47 PM
Is this the last post to color awareness - Trip around the color wheel.
If not where do I find the next post. Thank you Busy Pencil

Flame Lily
06-24-2009, 03:26 PM
Is this the last post to color awareness - Trip around the color wheel.
If not where do I find the next post. Thank you Busy PencilIt has been concluded, but you are most welcome to ask as many questions as you need to and I would gladly try to answer and if I'm not around there are plenty cp artists here who would be glad to help. I have big projects going on offline and regret to say I do not use the forums as much as I used to, but still get the e-mail notifications :)

Busy Pencil
06-24-2009, 05:00 PM
Thank you very much for answering me. It has been a wonderful help as I have done all of the exercises up at far as I could find the next lessons. Thank you busy Pencil Janet Grundas

Starrpoint
08-05-2009, 10:30 PM
this is really interesting. Thanks for the subject

markdietz
08-12-2009, 11:21 AM
Excellent. I thought I understood the color wheel and had a pretty good grasp of color mixing, but your well written article made me aware of further nuances and relationships I hadn't considered. Thanks for opening my eyes!

emmatate
08-14-2009, 09:39 AM
I've never hestitated making color wheels with paint. Don't know why I didn't think of it with pencils. Oh dah!

joantheb
08-22-2009, 12:36 AM
Thank you Liesl, so much to learn !! But where better to learn it, than through your trip round the colour wheel... ? I love it, will print out and try out all the combinations. especially the Burnishing bits, I had ablank about this before reading your work. I will never be famous BUT I will be happy doing this. Joantheb.

mudcat3
08-26-2009, 11:23 AM
Here's my Prismacolor wheel and swatches. Sometimes I need to get back to basics to realize alternatives to my current practices. The small blocks on the outside of the wheel are blends done with primaries and secondaries to see how well they match with the single color pencil. Some are good matches, some are not. Carol
http://www.middleborderartistblog.com/http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Aug-2009/161683-coloredpencilwheel.JPG