View Full Version : Why I think that we should have three outside judges...

03-25-2011, 02:36 AM
I have read the thread a bit while I was on my trip where people were voicing in that we needn't bother outside judges with the initial jury process when we 'know' who will get master level right off the bat. But I just can't agree with that thought process and here is my thinking on that.

First I think we open ourselves to future criticism if we just automatically advance people without them going through the process. What if next year when we officially launch people jump on board and say 'how can these people judge me when they have not been judged themselves? If they get in automatically then I should too." Perhaps even opening ourselves to lawsuit that we did not follow our own protocols of three judges. While the three judges would not be master ISSA members for this initial jurying, they would be people esteemed within the art world and knowledgeable about scratchboard.

Secondly what if someone thinks they are good enough, but maybe I (or someone else) don't feel like they meet the criteria set up. Now we have the start of a personal feud right at the get go and hard feelings. Now of course any juror in the future may hurt feelings too (it goes with the territory) but its not all out there for everyone to know who is the one speaking against them, as it would be if done through postings on WC and some people would likely feel intimidated to comment if others seemed to think the person was good to go even though they may not be alone in their feelings. In my opinion jurying should be done in private, not public, where the jurors can openly discuss the issues and their decision without offending more than a simple 'no' will already (if the jurors do not feel they are qualified).

Many of the people that would be potential master members are also people that are now running for positions on the board. If elected (which seems likely since we are all running unopposed) then even more it goes back to my first comment or someone saying that these people got in based on a position of authority in the society, not on skill.

And if we are all so confident of who will get in, what is the harm of having it validated by outside judges to make it all legit and with a record of the results for book keeping purposes.

I do feel that we should not impose a large burden on these judges that we ask, as someone else also indicated. I think we should limit this initial outside jury to no more than 7 applicants (which would mean that the viewers would have to look through a total of 70 images (7 sets of 10), look over 7 resume/bios, which really should not take that long to do) I would certainly hope we can get at least 3 out of that lot, and perhaps all seven if seven apply, which would give us a good pool of jurors for 2012.

I have two people that I would suggest as outside jurors.

Charles Eweing, who many of you are familiar with as the founder of clayboard and the scratchboard that ampersand makes. He has an intimate knowledge of the medium, and although he mostly works on clayboard, he has discussed at some length techniques on black boards as well. And while he does know some of us, I can say with full confidence that I believe he would be unbiased in any decision that he makes.

Diane Mason (http://www.ddmason.com/Artists_Profile.html) is the president of the Society of Animal Artists. She is now a primarily a sculptor, but has worked in scratchboard before (it was one of her first mediums). She has served as president of SAA for the past several years and is very supportive of seeing scratchboard take its rightful place as a fine art medium. She has served on the jurying of SAA members as well as SAA shows, and judged a variety of national competitions. She does know me and Cristina (as are both SAA members) but again I can tell you with good confidence that she would be unbiased in her decisions.

Rodman suggested an artist that he knows and hope he will hop in here and share a bit about him and why he thinks he is qualified. If others have suggestions on outside jurors please feel free to let us know.

If these two are to everyone's approved I would take on the task of calling them to see if they would agree to be jurors for our initial pool of Master members. If someone has an objection please feel free to voice it (I won't get offended or upset). If the fact that I know two of them bothers someone please feel free to suggest an alternate too.

And some have said "well I only want my peer of scratchboard artists, who know every in and out of this medium to judge me" and my opinion is that is fine, then you wait until 2012 to apply, when you will in fact have just that. I can honestly think of no valid reason that we would NOT have a jury panel to get the first master members.

OK off my soap box...

03-25-2011, 03:27 AM
Well said Cathy...I knew you'd address this when you got back and you did it so eloquently.

I agree with the 2 people you mentioned for jurors and would like to suggest a 3rd from Canada and coincidentally,Wet Canvas.

I haven't asked her but I could if everyone agrees. Dianna Ponting. She's been a member here on WC for as long as I can remember and she has been a Senior Signature member and jurist of/for the Federation of Canadian Artist's for a number of years and is Past President of the FCA. I respect her a great deal and she is an awesome artist. I know her onlu in passing and I have no reason to think she wouldn't be totally unbiased in jurying for us. Her website... (http://www.ponting.com/)

BTW, no matter what, I think it should be a jury of at least 3 so there is no possiblity of a split decision.

03-25-2011, 09:24 AM
Since 3 jurors is what our bylaws call for that is what I think we should use. I am not opposed to Diana Ponting - her work is lovely! Is she familiar with scratchboard?

fire angel
03-25-2011, 10:27 AM
I think someone that should be considered as an outside judge is Martiena Richter. If she would be willing to do it. She has been doing scratchboard for over 30 years. Here is a link to her website: http://www.martienarichter.com/

03-25-2011, 10:49 AM
I see what you're sayin Cathy....and it does make sense :thumbsup:
I'm positive that the outside Judges will see it the same as we would :thumbsup:
It's so cool watching this come to life :clap:

03-25-2011, 11:01 AM
Right on, Cathy. My earlier concern was never about the impartiality of our board, but that some of our finest artists are on the board and might not be considered due to that fact. Let's start with outside and build from the inside :)

03-25-2011, 02:24 PM
Here is my suggestion... Im getting word to him to see if he will still do it...( if needed ) and basically told him what to expect... and if he had my special requirements. Will post his availability,asap.

I'll add.... Robert is one of the partners at Heartland ( iPhone Mary) the reason I mention this is...2 things.. #1. He is a casual friend.. but, feel very confident that he would have the professionalism to judge the images completely unbiased. #2... many of the artist that might enter have sent art to Heartland for scanning. Robert may have been involved with that work....giving him HANDS ON (IRL) look at the work of the artist.

It matters not,to me, if Robert agrees and is used.....im just offering up a possible contact

03-25-2011, 02:34 PM
I remember seeing his work down in Indy - fascinating.
Looking forward to hearing if he's in...

03-25-2011, 02:53 PM
I'm not sure if Dianna has done scratch but she's familiar with it and of course she's seen the work on WC and my work. I won't ask her until we hear back from Rod's friend...he was suggested first and certainly has great credentials as well.

Diana Lee
03-25-2011, 09:39 PM
All of the potential jurists seem very qualified to me. I guess the next step is to see who is willing.

How are you going to decide the initial seven applicants to be juried! If it is first come first serve then there is the possibility that the none of the first seven make it as Masters and then we are at square one again.


03-25-2011, 10:30 PM
Maybe we should put the first seven to a vote from people on the board -

I would suggest


It's hard to select 7 people as there are so many great artists on this board but if I had to, these are the ones that IMO stand out as exemplary in their knowledge of scratch and the work that they produce. I hate to leave Harold out but he was next on my list. Would love to have him in the mix too.

Oh well. I guess my idea has a start.

03-25-2011, 10:43 PM
I feel confident that some of the initial seven will get voted in and would find it HIGHLY unlikely that they would decline everyone! I doubt that people that know up front that they do NOT meet the requirements would submit to this initial process. I'm honestly not sure we would get more than 7 people initially applying even without a cap on it. Remember its not just the quality of the art, but those that have gone above and beyond through shows, gallery representation and publications, etc. that will make a Master.

and just as a refresher direct from the bylaws
MSA: (Master Scratchboard Artist) These are members who have excelled and work at the highest levels of Scratchboard Art. Members must have distinguished themselves and the quality of their work through any or all of the following: national and/or International exhibition history/awards, (or other equally recognized shows or competitions), gallery representation, or may have been published, etc. To be considered for this level, artists must submit a portfolio of 10 works as well as a biography listing achievements .... Upon approval, they will become jurors and will no longer be required to be juried into ISSA annual exhibitions. They will continue to pay annual dues.

I guess those of us that are interested and believe we meet the above requirements should express interest and if we are more than 7 lets see how many more than 7 we are and go from there (for example if it were 8 we can just go with it, if we get to 12 we might need to reconsider how to do this)

I'd toss my hat in the ring as feeling I meet the requirements and am interested in being one of the initial applicants.

03-25-2011, 10:50 PM
I think someone that should be considered as an outside judge is Martiena Richter. If she would be willing to do it. She has been doing scratchboard for over 30 years. Here is a link to her website: http://www.martienarichter.com/

One of my concerns with using someone that is actively still working in scratchboard is that we hope these people will become our members in 2012 or beyond! So if Martiena were to jury in the initial set, would she then have to be juried in herself in the future year to become a master??

I think most of us agree that Charlie will be given honorary membership, so we are not in this predicament with him, but I could see Martiena becoming a master member herself in the future and it seems awkward that she would jury us and in turn we would potentially jury her?? Am I making any sense?? Maybe I am overthinking it...

03-26-2011, 01:24 AM
I agree with you about Martiena, Cathy. Also about Charlie being made an Honorary member.

I also want to express an interest in being one of the seven. I believe I meet the qualifications.

03-26-2011, 01:36 AM
Hi folks. I just wanted say that I think Cathy's thinking on this upcoming jurying process makes a great deal of sense to me. I also want to say that I am not now nor have I ever entertained any thoughts of submitting my name for the Master's level here. I truly am not bitter or mad or upset about anything. My comments about the Master's level were purely my opinion of the level name not the level itself. Lesley mentioning my name with the group of artists she listed honors and humbles me more than anyone knows. She is far too kind though. In all honesty I don't consider my skills to be anywhere near that level of accomplishment. Perhaps one day. Until then I will be quite content just being a member of the society.

03-26-2011, 01:53 AM
Harold, I think you are masterful and belong up there with the others. You are the best at backgrounds in scratch that I have seen. They are unique and many people, including myself, have tried to emulate your style. You always take the time to help others learn your techniques of coloured backgrounds. Thank you my friend for sharing. I think if it were not for you then a lot of people would have been intimidated about doing coloured backgrounds. You are an inspiration.

03-26-2011, 02:14 AM
I reiterate any that's said about Harold 'cept all the trash Rod says :lol:

A year ago I would have been flattered if anyone had put my name forward, but I wouldn't have felt worthy. Now though, since I've really been on the hunt getting my name out there, and also articles into other areas which I'll mention later, I'm still flattered but I feel more wprthy and as such I will also throw my hat into the ring as one of the 'however many'.

Diana Lee
03-26-2011, 11:28 AM
Ya know Harold, I wish we could show you a WC version of "It's A Wonderful Life" so you could see how much you contribute to all of us here.
I will throw my hat in as well.


03-26-2011, 12:43 PM
ONE of Harolds MANY charms is..... He has no idea how freck'n good and ground breaking he is..... a position on this, I could very well defend.

I would be interested and flattered by the chance to toss my hat in the ring with these heroes of mine.

03-26-2011, 12:53 PM
I definitely feel that everyone that has already expressed interest (Cathy, Lorna, Patrick, Diana and Rod) would have been on my list of who I would consider to be masters of scratchboard. Sandra, Cristina, Harold and Mark would be four more that I would add to that list, just to name a few. That is not to say that there are not others out there that are worthy as well.

03-26-2011, 01:57 PM
I have my list of Master Scratchers....
But I wont say who they are.:smug:
I know there are a few who won't feel that they belong on that list...
but I know they do. One day they might go for the title...
But that's up to them to decide....
anyways...they'll already have the title Master in my eyes :D
And I'll just continue on my path of reaching that goal :thumbsup:

03-26-2011, 05:26 PM
I totally believe that everyone mentioned are Master Scratchers. You guys are the elite!!:)

I really like the idea of how you can work your way up, as it is an incentive for me, I really can't wait to become a part of this awesome society.:D

03-26-2011, 08:30 PM
I really like the idea of how you can work your way up, as it is an incentive for me, I really can't wait to become a part of this awesome society.:D[/quote]

Me too!

03-28-2011, 11:45 AM
I'd sure like to toss my hat in the ring as you say, since I've been scratching longer than many of you have been walking :-) I feel I certainly have the credentials especially for the promotion of scratchboard as a fine art medium and as a medium to be taught to the next generation. I am a little concerned that you-all are missing out on the artists that have not discovered this inner circle of WC scratchers. Had I not been clued in by Andrea at Ampersand, I still would not know you existed.

03-28-2011, 12:02 PM
Sally have no fear - we will be working HARD to contact all the scratchers we can find that are not WC members for the 2012 jury process and getting them on board! We will definately be trying to get them in on the society once it is up and running and certainly are not restricting ourselves to wetcanvas members. This just happens to be where we are starting out, but I am certainly hopeful that it will grow into something much more inclusive and larger than the WC scratchboard family (much as I love you all :)) and something that almost all scratchboard artists will be interested in joining.

Ampersand even mentioned possibly putting something in thier packaging of scratchboard about the society and/or the 2012 show eventually in order to reach as many scratchboard artists as possible (some of which don't have web sites for us to find contact info for).

I am glad to see you say you are interested!

03-29-2011, 10:50 AM
I just visited your website. Please say you are going to be in San Antonio this June. Your work is fabulous.

03-29-2011, 12:26 PM
Ken, thanks for the kudos, I always think more of them when they come from fellow artists especially scratchers because we understand the medium.
I will be in San Antonio, I live just 2 hours out from where the gathering is being held. I don't know if it works this year, but maybe the year we gather in Austin, my studio is open for tours and sharing experiences. I am so happy to have found this group. Sally

tony murray
03-29-2011, 06:25 PM
Some of you folks are really blessed to have met other scratchboard artists near you. There is no one around here.

03-30-2011, 04:44 AM
Sally...As Cathy said...when we have all the society set up we will work hard to get every scratcher out there on board. We didn't do this for wet canvas, we're doing it to get scratching recognized as a legitimate fine art form. I won't make it for this years meeting...I sure hope to meet you next year.

Tony...where are you from?? There's no one around here that scratches either.

04-07-2011, 03:53 PM
Any progress on getting the judges?

04-08-2011, 04:23 PM
Terri...we still have one judge to get a hold of...she was away. The other 2 are on board and when we have everything in place, we'll let everyone know.

In the meantime, we are working to get the society set up by getting the paperwork done. This involves a lawyer, so folks, please keep those startup donations coming! Every little bit helps! There is a paypal address in one of the other threads. Seed Fund Donations. (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=925257)

06-12-2011, 01:03 AM
Just an update that all three initial judges have agreed to judge: Robert Egerton, Diana Mason and Charlie Ewing.

06-14-2011, 04:45 PM
Looks like you have started off with some phenominal judges guys, great job!