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Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 07:31 PM
It is time that you do some paintings based on what you have learned.
Here are 10 photos. You can choose whatever you want from this crop or if you wish you can use your own. I did not crop these photos so they will need your intervention. You have my permission to use these photos for paintings. I waive all copyrights.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-_MG_0312.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-_MG_0300.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-_MG_0688.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-_MG_0977.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 07:43 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-IMG_1452.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-DSC02310.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-DSC02363.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-DSC02394.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 07:47 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-DSC02589.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/135220-DSC02837.jpg

Amandine
03-14-2011, 08:10 PM
How many weeks do we have to do that ? (I work 4 days a week.)
Amandine

sherrysherman
03-14-2011, 08:24 PM
How many weeks do we have to do that ? (I work 4 days a week.)
Amandine
LOL! All 10 by Saturday--you can do that, right? :eek:

No, Johannes has suggested we just try to do ONE. I am betting this will be an ongoing assignment; just post it when you get it done.

sherrysherman
03-14-2011, 08:26 PM
It is time that you do some paintings based on what you have learned.
Here are 10 photos. You can choose whatever you want from this crop or if you wish you can use your own. I did not crop these photos so they will need your intervention. You have my permission to use these photos for paintings. I waive all copyrights.
Johannes, should we post them in this thread? If not, where?

Do you want to see thumbnails too or just the painting?

spudsmom
03-14-2011, 08:38 PM
Johannes are those first few of Acadia? It's my favorite place on the planet.
The second and third picture look like you took them from Cadillac Mountain.

Sherri

Amandine
03-14-2011, 08:48 PM
LOL! All 10 by Saturday--you can do that, right? :eek:

No, Johannes has suggested we just try to do ONE. I am betting this will be an ongoing assignment; just post it when you get it done.

I couldn't watch the demo on Sunday, that's why I'm asking.
But, I like your suggestion of doing all 10 for next week-end :lol: After all, just picking one photo, cropping it, making some changes, check the values, doing a thumnail sketch, etc. etc., it's a matter of 5-10 minutes :lol: No ?
Anyway, thanks for your answer, I'll surely do my best. :cool:
Amandine

flowergram
03-14-2011, 08:49 PM
Johannes, should we post them in this thread? If not, where?

Do you want to see thumbnails too or just the painting?


Please post your pictures in this thread, thumbnails, descriptions, anything you like.
Gina

sherrysherman
03-14-2011, 09:42 PM
After all, just picking one photo, cropping it, making some changes, check the values, doing a thumnail sketch, etc. etc., it's a matter of 5-10 minutes :lol: No ?
:cool:
Yeah, and "etc etc" apparently means.... PAINT IT! Okay, that should add a couple more minutes to the task. :rolleyes:

caemin
03-14-2011, 10:01 PM
Yeah, and "etc etc" apparently means.... PAINT IT! Okay, that should add a couple more minutes to the task. :rolleyes:

:lol::lol::lol:

karan55
03-14-2011, 10:25 PM
This is my first time so I am starting from the beginning! I chose a picture from the WC reference library. It looked like it would be a good one to work on. I still want to do the picture you used in class last Saturday but that one has not been posted.

I cropped the photo - to zoom in on the pathway and delete the unnecessary washed out top part. I was able to crop to a 3:4 ratio; which will be perfect for a 12X16 format.
The safest value plan would be all Mid-tone in the tree masses/shapes and a Mid-Light value for the pathway but there would be more drama if Ö.

I decided on making the left foreground tree shape as the Mid-dark,
The pathway shape as the Mid-light to guide the eye into the center of interest, (The curve in the path),
The tree mass on the right and up into the foreground a Mid-value.

I think it might be neat to do both ways and see what I/you like best.

I hope I am on track with your teaching; what do you think?

karan55
03-14-2011, 10:31 PM
The color contrasts are much different on paper; the scanning is picking up the shiny aspects where I drew in so much to get the mid-dark. I used a 6B for Mid=dark, 2B for Mid value and an HB for Mid-light but still had a terrible time getting the values right. Also, as I worked on getting melodic lines it would get too dark or too light if I was chewing out chunks with the eraser. Now that I see my posting; I see, I have a lot learning to do when it comes to drawing!!!

Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 10:35 PM
This is my first time so I am starting from the beginning! I chose a picture from the WC reference library. It looked like it would be a good one to work on. I still want to do the picture you used in class last Saturday but that one has not been posted.

I cropped the photo - to zoom in on the pathway and delete the unnecessary washed out top part. I was able to crop to a 3:4 ratio; which will be perfect for a 12X16 format.
The safest value plan would be all Mid-tone in the tree masses/shapes and a Mid-Light value for the pathway but there would be more drama if Ö.

I decided on making the left foreground tree shape as the Mid-dark,
The pathway shape as the Mid-light to guide the eye into the center of interest, (The curve in the path),
The tree mass on the right and up into the foreground a Mid-value.

I think it might be neat to do both ways and see what I/you like best.

I hope I am on track with your teaching; what do you think?
Now that sounds like a trained artist. The painting will work either way. What i do is opt more for the midvalue as much as I can. Have you seen the painting I posted in week 7 thread. It is quite similar in compostion to your photo. If your foreground tree will overlap unless you dramatically shift hue you will need to shift the value to depict the depth. If you do it like I did by showing sky between them then you may want to get as much mid value you can afford so the colors show nicely. What I would do in this case is make the tree on the left a mid dark but make it thinner to no more than 3/8 the distance and fatten the trees on the right to a mid value. 2/3 tree mass mid and 1/3 mid dark.

karan55
03-14-2011, 10:43 PM
Now that sounds like a trained artist. The painting will work either way. What i do is opt more for the midvalue as much as I can. Have you seen the painting I posted in week 7 thread. It is quite similar in compostion to your photo.

Yes I saw your painting and thought the same thing! Funny thing is I have been working on this all day and then I saw your posting and got really excited about trying to do this in watercolor. I am very new to water color and it scares me. I can paint flowers and that is challenging enough for me! We will see!!!

Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Yes I saw your painting and thought the same thing! Funny thing is I have been working on this all day and then I saw your posting and got really excited about trying to do this in watercolor. I am very new to water color and it scares me. I can paint flowers and that is challenging enough for me! We will see!!!
I added more text to my reply to you while you posted your last comment. You may want to go back and read the rest.

karan55
03-14-2011, 11:06 PM
I added more text to my reply to you while you posted your last comment. You may want to go back and read the rest.

Thank you! I just read it and you answered a question I was just trying to put into words. It is really hard to stay with in the value plan when you think about the little tweeks available in this scene. I was wondering how I could get the dark in the tree shape on the left and the lightness on the right tree mass without compromising the Mid value plan. It will be a fine line for me to walk, but I guess I need to start somewhere... I will take my first steps....with your guidance along the way.....I am excited! I will draw up a new value plan....1/3 mid-dark 2/3 mid-light tree masses!

Thank you so much!

sherrysherman
03-14-2011, 11:08 PM
Here is my painting - pastels on Canson, 12x16. Started it after the first weekend about 3-value massing. Finished it today per homework. :)
My value massing was mostly mid;
mid-darks - shadows on path; lower right corner; left side of painting;
mid-lights - sky and sunny part of central rock formation.
Tried to keep the rest in the mid range, with a few small lights and darks for modeling and balance.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_4-rev-sm800.jpg

Here's the ref photo. I cropped it, moved, deleted, changed the size of a few items, changed values (obviously!) and colors a little, defined the planes a little better (I hope).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_599_for_painting-sm.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 11:17 PM
Here is my painting - pastels on Canson, 12x16. Started it after the first weekend about 3-value massing. Finished it today per homework. :)
My value massing was mostly mid;
mid-darks - shadows on path; lower right corner; left side of painting;
mid-lights - sky and sunny part of central rock formation.
Tried to keep the rest in the mid range, with a few small lights and darks for modeling and balance.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_4-rev-sm800.jpg

Here's the ref photo. I cropped it, moved, deleted, changed the size of a few items, changed values (obviously!) and colors a little, defined the planes a little better (I hope).

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_599_for_painting-sm.jpg
Take another look at the mountain on the left. Do you see the cloned ridges?

sherrysherman
03-14-2011, 11:24 PM
Take another look at the mountain. Do you see the cloed ridges?
The two in the middle? I guess I was thinking that different shadow patterns would make it okay. Not, huh? I can make one fatter, shorter, the other taller, skinnier, more pointed... I guess I got caught up in "what the formation LOOKS like" -- sheesh! :)

karan55
03-14-2011, 11:32 PM
Here mis my revised value plan. I reduced the mid-dark tree shape to 1/3 of overall tree mass.

Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 11:35 PM
The two in the middle? I guess I was thinking that different shadow patterns would make it okay. Not, huh? I can make one fatter, shorter, the other taller, skinnier, more pointed... I guess I got caught up in "what the formation LOOKS like" -- sheesh! :)

Or merge.

Johannes Instructor
03-14-2011, 11:38 PM
Here mis my revised value plan. I reduced the mid-dark tree shape to 1/3 of overall tree mass.

Yes that will work! Very good planning. I am proud of you. Make the stream less train tracky if you can. Don't allow both sides of it to mirror.

karan55
03-14-2011, 11:49 PM
Yes that will work! Very good planning. I am proud of you. Make the stream less train tracky if you can. Don't allow both sides of it to mirror.

It is a dirt path, with the light and shadows on it; so I will be able to add and bite into it with neutral colors value-wise but, different color intensities, as well. Will this work? Or do I need to modify with just values, for melodic lines. I think this is the same question just asked above! I think I rely on color intensity more than value...I cannot believe I have learned this much... that I can even realise this!!!!

Johannes Instructor
03-15-2011, 12:03 AM
It is a dirt path, with the light and shadows on it; so I will be able to add and bite into it with neutral colors value-wise but, different color intensities, as well. Will this work? Or do I need to modify with just values, for melodic lines. I think this is the same question just asked above! I think I rely on color intensity more than value...I cannot believe I have learned this much... that I can even realise this!!!!
Sorry path. I was so involved with your thumbnail sketh and no longer looked at the photo. Amen on the color intensity. We can manipulate chroma to bring out the illusion of light and still keep the value in a mid value.That's the beauty of it.

karan55
03-15-2011, 12:13 AM
Sorry path. I was so involved with your thumbnail sketh and no longer looked at the photo. Amen on the color intensity. We can manipulate chroma to bring out the illusion of light and still keep the value in a mid value.That's the beauty of it.

Oh! so I can use both chroma and value to convey a melodic line or shape? This won't show up as well in a black and white; but does that matter as much?

Johannes Instructor
03-15-2011, 12:33 AM
Oh! so I can use both chroma and value to convey a melodic line or shape? This won't show up as well in a black and white; but does that matter as much?
A line is formed by putting one shape against another and what makes that line show is, either we have a value shift and or a hue shift. If you feel that a line is important in the painting use these tools to make that line stand out. I guess you can say that a stronger chroma against a less saturated one would form a line as well but I never put that to words before. but what I meant earlier is that chroma even though it is in a mid value a strong intensity of it will convey light and the viewer will be tricked into believing it is much lighter. Lets take cadmium yellow for example or Indian yellow. When you squeeze them out of the tube it looks so brilliant that you believe they are much lighter in value. However when converted to gray scale those pigments end up being around a value 4 which is mid gray.

robertsloan2
03-15-2011, 04:28 AM
Out of all the references, I liked the last one best. It seems to have so many eye paths, so many interesting abstract shapes and musical lines.

I decided to try it in watercolor and plan thoroughly before doing the painting. Looking at the references again, number 10 jumped out one more time because it's full of opportunities for Watercolor Special Effects. Spatter effects around the splashing water. Wet in wet for the backlit trees on top of the rocks. Credit card scraping within the shadowed rocks. Salt effects for all that lichen on the rocks. I can really play with the medium with this one.

Cropping was tricky. I liked everything in the photo! It looks okay the way it is, except that it all seems to lead to a focal point a little close to the middle and off to the right, so some of the fun stuff at the top had to go. The other thing was that all the eye paths including the waterfall led past the waterfall to a sunlit spot that's just a chunk of rock. What would make that one bit of rock special surrounded by so many other beautiful rocks?

Put a cat on it, of course.

That's when my concept jelled. If I put in an animal, he's the center of interest because he's interesting. The sketch of the pose in my thumbnail is not the final shape I'll give him. Cats fall into perfect abstract shapes almost every time they move or sit still, they're wonderful for that. I'll be doing some gestural sketches of the cat in detail before I go into doing the actual painting because with watercolor, less is more and I may have to describe him in very few strokes.

Most of the painting is cool colors and the golden cougar is the warmest spot in the painting. He's backlit like the trees a little, so I need to do something interesting at his edges.

I've described the rock surface as pure white in the value mass thumbnail but it's actually going to be just short of white, the high end of "light mid". I'm pulling the waterfall itself into middle value to reduce its importance, using mid dark for the shadowed areas. So read the "white" rock surface as mid-light and there's my value masses. I could've gone to four values but I'm not putting white spray behind my cougar. He wouldn't sleep in the sunpatch if it was constantly getting him wet!

Had to use an attachment, the uploader didn't feel like working right. There's an abortive first try at value mass sketch above it.

A little detailed for value masses, I'll probably do another once I work out exactly the cougar's pose and can include him as part of his mass. But he has to be mid-value, his golden form is the warmest element in the painting.

It's also a very loose thumbnail, sometimes I get really loose in sketching. That's probably a good thing in the long run. The painting may vary from this a bit and I might do another.

wetbob
03-15-2011, 04:52 AM
All complex photos to paint. Much photos are quilty, they all lie:thumbsup:

This is going to be a challenge for me. I ll try one.

wetbob
03-15-2011, 04:53 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_4-rev-sm800.jpg

Great work. I felt they were cloned too

rugman
03-15-2011, 12:10 PM
Here's my version of Johannes barn and stream ref photo. (posted last week). 8 x 10 inches oil. Tried hard to maintain mostly mid value, and use colors to separate planes.

I am in that stage of practice, practice, practice. Having been in the webinars last December, I understand what Jo teaches, and I feel my paintings have improved greatly and continue to improve... Thanks Johannes!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnAr.jpg

greyscale:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnArBW.jpg

elsie50
03-15-2011, 12:56 PM
I hope this is the right place to post our homeworkhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/142124-Johannes_no_1_Small.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/142124-Lesson13._thumbnail_and_tonal_drawing_Handheld.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/142124-Lesson_13_Homework_Johannes_Medium.jpg

Pastel Pencils on Ingres coloured pastel paper

Johannes Instructor
03-15-2011, 01:48 PM
Here's my version of Johannes barn and stream ref photo. (posted last week). 8 x 10 inches oil. Tried hard to maintain mostly mid value, and use colors to separate planes.

I am in that stage of practice, practice, practice. Having been in the webinars last December, I understand what Jo teaches, and I feel my paintings have improved greatly and continue to improve... Thanks Johannes!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnAr.jpg

greyscale:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnArBW.jpg
No picture came thru.

jmcedeno
03-15-2011, 01:57 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/159973-Value_Masses-1-2011-13-21-02-968.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/159973-03-09-2011-13-19-49-343.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/159973-Lake_in_late_Winter-IMG_0223.jpg Johannes, this is a WIP oil on linen panel 9x12, I'm not sure that I followed the value sketch properly so I need your guidance if you please, I used grey for the water as you had suggested and think it works.

painterted
03-15-2011, 02:54 PM
Johannes, I'm a new student and have learned so much from your teaching. Her is my painting of one of your photos.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/909312-135220-_MG_0688.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/909312-P1010001_1.JPG

dljaques
03-15-2011, 03:19 PM
this is for painterted: I liked your watercolor very much. Very nice work! I did see some things that Jo has taught (cloning, non-abstract masses, harmonius lines etc.)

Dixie

Lynn 592
03-15-2011, 07:48 PM
Here's the picture I decided to paint along with the value mass thumbnail. The last is my painting. . . after I wiped the painting off! I'll try again later.

robertsloan2
03-15-2011, 09:25 PM
Jose, I think you seriously improved on your value mass thumbnail. It wasn't very musical compared to your painting. The mountain in the thumbnail was a triangle, the mountain in the painting is much more melodic. I don't think Johannes means "use the shapes in the thumbnail and be a slave to them like you aren't to the photo."

He often describes it as a battle plan. Everyone knows that never survives contact with the enemy - in this case, the left brain!

I think you did an amazing example of making all your mistakes in the little thumbnail and creating a far more beautiful painting because of it. I suspect I'm doing the same thing too, though I may want to do a second thumbnail and a detailed value sketch with the types of changes I'm doing.

aolaranora
03-15-2011, 10:51 PM
Here is my digital version of landscape with 3 mountain picks.
I didn't play it to perfection, just did some approximate pre-thinking and cropping. I do not have river here... You may suppose it is still somewhere there, but no way to see it. I want to start from mid-dark, then go to my lights and make those trees shine and then leave mountains and perhaps sky in mids... If I would paint it, I would give it some more thinking, but not at this point... yes, I also changed a tree line somewhat.

Original

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/177144-135220-DSC02589.jpg
version what i would work with

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/177144-135220-DSC02589_copy.jpg

tuscanni
03-15-2011, 11:56 PM
Here's my version of Johannes barn and stream ref photo. (posted last week). 8 x 10 inches oil. Tried hard to maintain mostly mid value, and use colors to separate planes.

I am in that stage of practice, practice, practice. Having been in the webinars last December, I understand what Jo teaches, and I feel my paintings have improved greatly and continue to improve... Thanks Johannes!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnAr.jpg

greyscale:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnArBW.jpg
If I may say so.....I really love your painting. I love your choice of colors and style of painting.
ANN

wetbob
03-16-2011, 04:03 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/159973-Lake_in_late_Winter-IMG_0223.jpg
I really like your painting. You took some bold actions! I m a very bad landscape painter too! But i think Johannes would say your values are too dark (water/evergreens). About value 8 and 9. I like your darks.
But the area left under the red evergreen tree looks cloned. The places where the water carved out land by erosion,
WB

Jose i did see your website too late, great paintings!

wetbob
03-16-2011, 04:15 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnAr.jpg

Very NICE!

raxu
03-16-2011, 04:58 AM
Hi Johannes,
your teaching has opened my eyes... took your classes because I never felt like painting landscapes and wanted to see what that is all about. Have painted in watercolors (on my own...) almost 3 years now, and really need to start rethinking - so far, I have painted more or less spontanious. Luckily I finally got yesterday the books you recommended. Thanks again for your precious golden nuggets!

I tried to paint your pastel demo in watercolors. As I changed my (not finished?) painting in grey scale, it looked OK, yet there must be something terrible wrong with it because it does not look pleasing in colors. The lines should be melodic and OK, and I even managed to make the trees abstract!!! It must be the missing color harmony? Or are the differences in values not big enough? I am afraid of ending in mud, that easily happens in watercolors.

Here my battle plan:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0611.jpg
What I wanted is to keep the sand and the sky - and the distant hill - in mid light, the background forest in mid dark, and everything else mid.

And here I am...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0610.jpg

The line of rocks is actually not blue, it's paynes grey and violet. Painting water is something I have little experience with, so it does not look right, I guess.

Johannes, please point out the biggest problem zones I have here (however, don't say its ALL wrong :D )

Thank you in advance...

PS I really would like to have your personal opinion about if it would be good for me to try another media, which would allow me to "rescue" my painting by painting over, adding highlights etc - like in pastels, oils...? Which one would be advisable for a relative beginner? Kenneth already wrote in the chat box and confirmed it would be good to leave the watercolors alone until the painting skills are more trained. I did not get the answer about what could I try. Maybe pastels, to avoid sinking into details like I often do?

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 08:58 AM
Here is my digital version of landscape with 3 mountain picks.
I didn't play it to perfection, just did some approximate pre-thinking and cropping. I do not have river here... You may suppose it is still somewhere there, but no way to see it. I want to start from mid-dark, then go to my lights and make those trees shine and then leave mountains and perhaps sky in mids... If I would paint it, I would give it some more thinking, but not at this point... yes, I also changed a tree line somewhat.

Original

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/177144-135220-DSC02589.jpg
version what i would work with

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/177144-135220-DSC02589_copy.jpg
The second version you are choking it. Use the first

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 09:01 AM
I can start to see that the posts here you have removed your extreme dark values. I see a lot of light in these paintings and am please with what I am starting to see. I am also seeing you are makking value plans and are sticking to them. This is great. I prefer not to type reviews on them for now so I can present them in class next Saturday so everyone else can see. Some people felt that if I type a review and show the painting again it becomes redundant so I am waiting. So if you don't see me making a reference now you will see it in class.

Lin Frye
03-16-2011, 09:15 AM
Johannes:
Thank you for all your incredible information in these classes ...! So much to absorb and apply!

This is a composite of several of the landscapes ... I tried to keep the sky and mountains light, the foliage and water a mid-light to mid-dark, and accent with darkest values....

I realize the mountain to the right could be better 'cut into' - a bit more challenging to correct with watercolor ...

Thank you for taking the time to suggest improvements!

Lin

I've tried and tried to upload the image but couldn't - so I've attached it here ...

rugman
03-16-2011, 09:17 AM
Thank you Ann and Wetbob. Appreciate your kind words.
Blues and yellows are not so garrish in real life, and I softened some edges on the trees.

Raxu- very nice, I like it!

Jose, Painterted- Nice work!

Looking forward to seeing what everyone else comes up with- going to be fun.

rugman
03-16-2011, 09:19 AM
Lin- posted at same time. Great watercolor. I admire you watercolor folks!

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 09:35 AM
Johannes:
Thank you for all your incredible information in these classes ...! So much to absorb and apply!

This is a composite of several of the landscapes ... I tried to keep the sky and mountains light, the foliage and water a mid-light to mid-dark, and accent with darkest values....

I realize the mountain to the right could be better 'cut into' - a bit more challenging to correct with watercolor ...

Thank you for taking the time to suggest improvements!



I've tried and tried to upload the image but couldn't - so I've attached it here ...
Lin
Good I can see you are removing those dead value 8 darks from your work. Lin our left brain picks out on all those small twigs coming out of the ground and intellectualizes that wanting to depict them. But before we put them in we ask ourselves if they will contribute anywaY to the painting by asking the question, "Why am I putting these in?". The answer should not be, "Because I saw them in the photo". The answer should be a compositional reason. I believe your painting would improve if they were left out. You can download a free photo editing software called gimp at gimp.org and use the cloning tool to copy the grass and remove those twigs. See if you are more pleased with it. I like that you did wet on wet in back ground and I feel the composition is good.

Lin Frye
03-16-2011, 09:47 AM
THANK you so much!!! Will do!

Lin

artastic
03-16-2011, 10:19 AM
not a lansdcape painter by any means, but value the information and everything I am learning here (I can apply it to any subject I think)
I did do a pastel sketch on mi-tentes of one of the refs,

original
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse_ref.jpg

value thumbnail
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-notan1.jpg

cropped and this is the color version

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse-c.jpg

and greyscale to compare to thumbnail
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse.jpg

thanks for all your help Johannes

sherrysherman
03-16-2011, 10:29 AM
I prefer not to type reviews on them for now so I can present them in class next Saturday so everyone else can see. Some people felt that if I type a review and show the painting again it becomes redundant so I am waiting. So if you don't see me making a reference now you will see it in class.
Johannes, don't forget that OTHERS felt that comments here in WC are indeed appropriate because (a) not everyone is at the live class; (b) if we wait a week to hear your comments, especially on a work in progress, it slows down our process - sometimes we don't want to take the next step until we see a quick comment from you, and (c) you don't comment on every painting in class.

I don't find it redundant because you tend to give a greater explanation in class and you SHOW what you mean (with Photoshop).

And one more thing - if you do repeat yourself, I think the consensus is that repetition is good! :)

raxu
03-16-2011, 11:05 AM
thanks Sherry, yes it's me stuck with my watercolor. But then again, I can start a new one... if only I knew what's the biggest problem with me (except me of course!)...
I can understand Johannes cannot possible comment every painting, we are a huge bunch of followers...
Looking forward to next Saturday!

sherrysherman
03-16-2011, 11:23 AM
Hopefully, I got rid of the clones in that rock formation.

I also tinkered a bit elsewhere.

More suggestions?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_5-rev-sm.jpg

shbezaire
03-16-2011, 11:57 AM
Hi Johannes,

I chose to paint the fishermen photo - I changed the tree line to allow the viewer's eye to go back to the mountains and also played with the keyholes a bit. I only painted one fisherman and brought him forward since that was my focal point. Just as I up loaded this, I realized I had the railroad tracks thing going on with the shore and the darkest land mass to the left...darn. I left the study on my easel so you'll see a couple of paint splotches.

As always, your feedback is very helpful,
Susi
www.SusiHavensBezaire.com (http://www.SusiHavensBezaire.com)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/308661-CCF03162011_00000.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/308661-IMG_0012.JPG

pjreads
03-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Johannes, don't forget that OTHERS felt that comments here in WC are indeed appropriate because (a) not everyone is at the live class; (b) if we wait a week to hear your comments, especially on a work in progress, it slows down our process - sometimes we don't want to take the next step until we see a quick comment from you, and (c) you don't comment on every painting in class.

I don't find it redundant because you tend to give a greater explanation in class and you SHOW what you mean (with Photoshop).

And one more thing - if you do repeat yourself, I think the consensus is that repetition is good! :)

I agree with Sherry.

If there were a poll or a vote on this, I think the majority would want to see your comments on WC where there's time to look a second or third time so we can see and absorb the ideas.

Repetition is good!

jmcedeno
03-16-2011, 02:23 PM
I really like your painting. You took some bold actions! I m a very bad landscape painter too! But i think Johannes would say your values are too dark (water/evergreens). About value 8 and 9. I like your darks.
But the area left under the red evergreen tree looks cloned. The places where the water carved out land by erosion,
WB

Jose i did see your website too late, great paintings!
Thank you for looking at my painting, I agree with you totally, I do have a lot of problem with oil controlling the values (very little experience with it) I see clearly now what areas need improvement and I will try to correct them once it has dried to the point where I could paint over. I'm now involved in another photo for Johannes homework, I'll probably work on pastel or watercolor this time.

jmcedeno
03-16-2011, 02:31 PM
Thank you Ann and Wetbob. Appreciate your kind words.
Blues and yellows are not so garrish in real life, and I softened some edges on the trees.

Raxu- very nice, I like it!

Jose, Painterted- Nice work!

Looking forward to seeing what everyone else comes up with- going to be fun.
Thanks Ron for yor comments.

jmcedeno
03-16-2011, 02:34 PM
Johannes:
Thank you for all your incredible information in these classes ...! So much to absorb and apply!

This is a composite of several of the landscapes ... I tried to keep the sky and mountains light, the foliage and water a mid-light to mid-dark, and accent with darkest values....

I realize the mountain to the right could be better 'cut into' - a bit more challenging to correct with watercolor ...

Thank you for taking the time to suggest improvements!

Lin

I've tried and tried to upload the image but couldn't - so I've attached it here ...

Lin that is a good watercolor filled with lots of light, like it a lot.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 03:57 PM
I agree with Sherry.

If there were a poll or a vote on this, I think the majority would want to see your comments on WC where there's time to look a second or third time so we can see and absorb the ideas.

Repetition is good!

Actually you make a very good point. What do we do with the people that don't take class on Saturday. So I will look at these. What I will do is cherry pick the submissions and I feel how to better learning curve as examples for the class.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 04:01 PM
Hi Johannes,

I chose to paint the fishermen photo - I changed the tree line to allow the viewer's eye to go back to the mountains and also played with the keyholes a bit. I only painted one fisherman and brought him forward since that was my focal point. Just as I up loaded this, I realized I had the railroad tracks thing going on with the shore and the darkest land mass to the left...darn. I left the study on my easel so you'll see a couple of paint splotches.

As always, your feedback is very helpful,
Susi
www.SusiHavensBezaire.com (http://www.SusiHavensBezaire.com)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/308661-CCF03162011_00000.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/308661-IMG_0012.JPG

This painting has a good placement of masses. Be careful with the slanted line especially with water. It will make the painting feel like its tipping. You managed to get a lot of light in the painting. Which proves that we don't need a light and dark contrast to achieve this. Double check your negative spaces between your trees. Look at the left side of the painting. The farm out and would still fall into the category of a mid gray value not a mid light as indicated in the thumbnail sketch.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 04:04 PM
not a lansdcape painter by any means, but value the information and everything I am learning here (I can apply it to any subject I think)
I did do a pastel sketch on mi-tentes of one of the refs,

original
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse_ref.jpg

value thumbnail
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-notan1.jpg

cropped and this is the color version

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse-c.jpg

and greyscale to compare to thumbnail
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse.jpg

thanks for all your help Johannes
You did stay with your value plan. You deserve a pat on the back for that. Double check your painting and you will notice that you have cloned shapes. Look behind the red building and look at the stones.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Out of all the references, I liked the last one best. It seems to have so many eye paths, so many interesting abstract shapes and musical lines.

I decided to try it in watercolor and plan thoroughly before doing the painting. Looking at the references again, number 10 jumped out one more time because it's full of opportunities for Watercolor Special Effects. Spatter effects around the splashing water. Wet in wet for the backlit trees on top of the rocks. Credit card scraping within the shadowed rocks. Salt effects for all that lichen on the rocks. I can really play with the medium with this one.

Cropping was tricky. I liked everything in the photo! It looks okay the way it is, except that it all seems to lead to a focal point a little close to the middle and off to the right, so some of the fun stuff at the top had to go. The other thing was that all the eye paths including the waterfall led past the waterfall to a sunlit spot that's just a chunk of rock. What would make that one bit of rock special surrounded by so many other beautiful rocks?

Put a cat on it, of course.

That's when my concept jelled. If I put in an animal, he's the center of interest because he's interesting. The sketch of the pose in my thumbnail is not the final shape I'll give him. Cats fall into perfect abstract shapes almost every time they move or sit still, they're wonderful for that. I'll be doing some gestural sketches of the cat in detail before I go into doing the actual painting because with watercolor, less is more and I may have to describe him in very few strokes.

Most of the painting is cool colors and the golden cougar is the warmest spot in the painting. He's backlit like the trees a little, so I need to do something interesting at his edges.

I've described the rock surface as pure white in the value mass thumbnail but it's actually going to be just short of white, the high end of "light mid". I'm pulling the waterfall itself into middle value to reduce its importance, using mid dark for the shadowed areas. So read the "white" rock surface as mid-light and there's my value masses. I could've gone to four values but I'm not putting white spray behind my cougar. He wouldn't sleep in the sunpatch if it was constantly getting him wet!

Had to use an attachment, the uploader didn't feel like working right. There's an abortive first try at value mass sketch above it.

A little detailed for value masses, I'll probably do another once I work out exactly the cougar's pose and can include him as part of his mass. But he has to be mid-value, his golden form is the warmest element in the painting.

It's also a very loose thumbnail, sometimes I get really loose in sketching. That's probably a good thing in the long run. The painting may vary from this a bit and I might do another.

Unless you are not indicating a mid dark gray value I would really like that you make a value seven and honest to goodness value seven of mid-value an honest to goodness mid-value and a mid light value an honest to goodness mid-light value. The darkest gray you have in your thumbnail is a mid value. Is that what you wanted?

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 04:38 PM
Here's my version of Johannes barn and stream ref photo. (posted last week). 8 x 10 inches oil. Tried hard to maintain mostly mid value, and use colors to separate planes.

I am in that stage of practice, practice, practice. Having been in the webinars last December, I understand what Jo teaches, and I feel my paintings have improved greatly and continue to improve... Thanks Johannes!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnAr.jpg

greyscale:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/81164-barnArBW.jpg
It is so nice to see a painting without black areas which I call coffins. Your whole painting has light in it, all the colors are showing, and nothing is stopping my eye flow. You did a real good job of following your thumbnail sketch plan. As you can see we don't even need a value seven in a painting. It seems like you didn't go any darker than a value six which is just fine. So as far as mapping your values are concerned you're OK. However I would correct a few compositional things. There is a visual triangle in the middle where the grass meets the water. The tops of your trees are following the contour of the hill. You can practically put a ruler on top of them. I would take a couple those trees and make them go higher. That will really improve the look of this painting. Last but not least, your grass got somewhat chalky, which means there's too much white mixed in the pigment. You can fix this if you glaze over it with yellow ochre once it's dry. That will bring out the glow back.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 04:39 PM
I hope this is the right place to post our homework
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/142124-Lesson13._thumbnail_and_tonal_drawing_Handheld.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/142124-Lesson_13_Homework_Johannes_Medium.jpg

Pastel Pencils on Ingres coloured pastel paper

In your thumbnail sketch you are indicating that the sky is a mid light gray value, but in your painting it ended up being a mid value.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 04:44 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/159973-03-09-2011-13-19-49-343.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/159973-Lake_in_late_Winter-IMG_0223.jpg Johannes, this is a WIP oil on linen panel 9x12, I'm not sure that I followed the value sketch properly so I need your guidance if you please, I used grey for the water as you had suggested and think it works.

You did hold true to your value sketch. Do you remember what I said about jagged lines? Even though the photo shows that the evergreen trees appear the same way as your painting them, a jagged line is not pleasing to the viewer. This is where we have to ignore the photograph which is trying to dictate the line and create our own melodic lines which results into visual music.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 04:47 PM
Johannes, I'm a new student and have learned so much from your teaching. Her is my painting of one of your photos.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/909312-135220-_MG_0688.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Mar-2011/909312-P1010001_1.JPG

Everybody who does watercolor paintings, this is an example of a painting whose colors are fresh and not overworked. Another good example that dark shapes are not necessary. In this case you're using darks only to indicate the accents to bring out the three dimensional look. This piece definitely has eye flow.

karan55
03-16-2011, 06:47 PM
Actually you make a very good point. What do we do with the people that don't take class on Saturday. So I will look at these. What I will do is cherry pick the submissions and I feel how to better learning curve as examples for the class.


I will add my vote in: I agree with the above that your written comments are greatly appreciated and awaited for with great anticipation.

There are some of us that learn by reading and re-reading your comments; and also, learn additionally by seeing and hearing what you do with the examples in class, especially when you use Photoshop. People have different learning preferences and efficiencies (oral-visual-written methods); My feelings are that you have provided for the lowest common denominator and left no one behind. You have done a great job of serving the masses and been able to fill most everyone's needs with your style of teaching.

Johannes Instructor
03-16-2011, 07:02 PM
You did hold true to your value sketch. Do you remember what I said about jagged lines? Even though the photo shows that the evergreen trees appear the same way as your painting them, a jagged line is not pleasing to the viewer. This is where we have to ignore the photograph which is trying to dictate the line and create our own melodic lines which results into visual music.


jmcedeno
If the photo is true those 8 values should go. Can you lighten your darks?

artastic
03-16-2011, 09:04 PM
You did stay with your value plan. You deserve a pat on the back for that. Double check your painting and you will notice that you have cloned shapes. Look behind the red building and look at the stones.
thanks , and so obvious when youpoint it out, lots to remember
here is an update, pastels are a nice way to solve the problems before painting the final one, easy to tweak and work out the flaws

still some straight lines I see

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse-c2.jpg

painterted
03-17-2011, 12:35 AM
Thanks Johannes for your critique on my painting, coming from you has got me charged and enthused, can't wait for the weekend.

rugman
03-17-2011, 12:39 AM
. Last but not least, your grass got somewhat chalky, which means there's too much white mixed in the pigment. You can fix this if you glaze over it with yellow ochre once it's dry. That will bring out the glow back.

Thanks for the reply, I will work on your suggestions tommorrow.

Question -How do you lighten values (for dry grass for example) without creating chalky look, painting wet on wet technique?

I really need some help with this, causing problems in all my oil paintings, and I cant seem to figure out a solution. Thanks a bunch.

wetbob
03-17-2011, 04:10 AM
I can start to see that the posts here you have removed your extreme dark values. I see a lot of light in these paintings and am please with what I am starting to see. I am also seeing you are makking value plans and are sticking to them. This is great. I prefer not to type reviews on them for now so I can present them in class next Saturday so everyone else can see. Some people felt that if I type a review and show the painting again it becomes redundant so I am waiting. So if you don't see me making a reference now you will see it in class
Is it ok Johannes to help with comments? I want to do something back.
I m a bad landscape painter but better with portraits.
I think it s difficult to remember all thing learned, for me it is

raxu
03-17-2011, 04:54 AM
OK let's forget the first miserable watercolor I posted (Johannes, are you recovering slowly :lol: ?)
Here the next attempt, from another ref pic of Johannes. Made first this version and of course overdid it. I will show it anyway because I could need some help

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0615eka.jpg

Had to use white gouache to rescue the lights :o I noticed I want to make those background trees taller, where they meet the left side of the painting. Now the line is following the line of rock formation, it's not good. As to the trees, I am pretty satisfied. Noticed also those round rocks on the lower right corner seem to have cloned themselves last night as I was sleeping :D .

This morning I wanted to try another approach, here the result

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0614_toka.jpg

I guess there are too many dark lines it this? I draw them first, putting wet color on the painting knife and then dragging it on the surface. On Arches it makes a nice broken effect. But then again, I might have overdone it, as well.

Would appreciate any critics and advice what I should change in my third version...
anyone willing to give some support?
Thanks!

raxu
03-17-2011, 06:43 AM
sorry, noticed the second one has not the same low intensity level as in the painting. Unfortunately I could not edit my post anymore, so here once again - this is more like the situation is.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0614_tokamuok.jpg

tuscanni
03-17-2011, 07:55 AM
ok...so I have worked really really hard on this weeks homework, I stayed up all night working on it. I have tried to follow what you have taught us Johannes. I purposely tried not to put too many dark values in the piece. I am not available to attend the webinars this weekend, so I would appreciate it if you would critique my homework here in the forum Johannes. I think its a big improvement from my last landscape. I used your tip about using packing peanuts to blend pastel and it works great! This is nupastel on 12 x 17 canson paper.....
ANN
original photo that I cropped...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/187535-135220-_MG_0300aaaaaaaaa.jpg
my completed pastel in color....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/187535-homework_landscape_2.jpg
greyscale...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/187535-homework_landscape_2_bw.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-17-2011, 09:41 AM
ok...so I have worked really really hard on this weeks homework, I stayed up all night working on it. I have tried to follow what you have taught us Johannes. I purposely tried not to put too many dark values in the piece. I am not available to attend the webinars this weekend, so I would appreciate it if you would critique my homework here in the forum Johannes. I think its a big improvement from my last landscape. I used your tip about using packing peanuts to blend pastel and it works great! This is nupastel on 12 x 17 canson paper.....
ANN
original photo that I cropped...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/187535-135220-_MG_0300aaaaaaaaa.jpg
my completed pastel in color....
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/187535-homework_landscape_2.jpg
greyscale...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/187535-homework_landscape_2_bw.jpg

Your values masses are pretty much correct. Your trees are a value 7 so they are not too dark. From what I see it was worth staying up all night. I must congratulate you. If you lighten the green patch at the bottom left so it stays the same value in its mother mass you will not fracture the mass.
Remember an easy way to remove watercolor is just to spray with the jet stream (set the spout to thin water thickness) using a hair salon water spray bottle.

Johannes Instructor
03-17-2011, 10:02 AM
sorry, noticed the second one has not the same low intensity level as in the painting. Unfortunately I could not edit my post anymore, so here once again - this is more like the situation is.



I would spray some of the fissures to make them less noticebale. Also next time you do rocks if you make them less of a dome and more angular they will look more abstract. The watercolor painting is fresh.

raxu
03-17-2011, 11:05 AM
Thank you Johannes, I really appreciate your advice. I seem to have a secret love affair with rounded rocks (did not notice it when painting this, either...)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0617.jpg

I believe I have never painted anything this light... would instinctively like to add color intensity. Would you still consider this as finished, is this the point where I should stop??? We all know, knowing the moment when to stop is the hardest part...

Johannes Instructor
03-17-2011, 11:29 AM
Thank you Johannes, I really appreciate your advice. I seem to have a secret love affair with rounded rocks (did not notice it when painting this, either...)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0617.jpg

I believe I have never painted anything this light... would instinctively like to add color intensity. Would you still consider this as finished, is this the point where I should stop??? We all know, knowing the moment when to stop is the hardest part...
Yes stop. You did a good job. Just take note of the observations for the next painting.

hungariancontessa
03-17-2011, 01:08 PM
Hi Johannes,
Here is one of my homeworks in pastel.
My value sketch doesn't show as much mid value as in the painting.
Thank you for viewing my work!
Warmest Regards,
Patricia


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-mountain_waterfall_small.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-mass_sketch_for_mountain_waterfall.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-reference10.jpg

tuscanni
03-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Your values masses are pretty much correct. Your trees are a value 7 so they are not too dark. From what I see it was worth staying up all night. I must congratulate you. If you lighten the green patch at the bottom left so it stays the same value in its mother mass you will not fracture the mass.
Remember an easy way to remove watercolor is just to spray with the jet stream (set the spout to thin water thickness) using a hair salon water spray bottle.
Johannes....thanks so much for your critique. I am so excited :clap:
Thanks thanks thanks for making my day a better one. I was really worried that I was horrible at pastel and landscapes and a horrible artist in general.
I will take your advise and lighten the green patch at the bottom left.
I have to work this weekend, so I wont be able to attend the webinars. Thanks for making the artist inside me a better one.
Thumbs up for your styrofoam packing peanut blending technique. It really helped.
Hope you have a great webinar this weekend!!
ANN

Johannes Instructor
03-17-2011, 07:04 PM
Hi Johannes,
Here is one of my homeworks in pastel.
My value sketch doesn't show as much mid value as in the painting.
Thank you for viewing my work!
Warmest Regards,
Patricia


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-mountain_waterfall_small.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-mass_sketch_for_mountain_waterfall.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-reference10.jpg
Try to connect all the mid dark shapes together in one mass. If you can't then form as many large masses as possible. You can connect them visually with the rock in the middle of the waterfall. Is that your painting or is that a zoom in?

Johannes Instructor
03-17-2011, 07:06 PM
Hi Johannes,
Here is one of my homeworks in pastel.
My value sketch doesn't show as much mid value as in the painting.
Thank you for viewing my work!
Warmest Regards,
Patricia


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-mountain_waterfall_small.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-mass_sketch_for_mountain_waterfall.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/145129-reference10.jpg Try to connect all the mid dark shapes together in one mass. If you can't then form as many large masses as possible. You can connect them visually with the rock in the middle of the waterfall. Is that your painting or is that a zoom in?

Johannes Instructor
03-17-2011, 07:07 PM
Yes stop. You did a good job. Just take note of the observations for the next painting.
One way to create depth in a painting is to add planes. You could suggest a distant mountain at the right.

firesignart
03-17-2011, 10:40 PM
Hi Johannes: loving your course. I have been working on the waterfall also and decided to change it to a vertical format. I wonder how to get the back dark shape of the cliff to back up...more greys, softer edges. My photos is a bit fuzzy. Also would love feed back on my foreground idea. I know the red is too much-just blocking in some darker shapes
Thanks so much, Nanci
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/97017-2011-03-17_16.22.56_edit0.jpg

raxu
03-18-2011, 04:42 AM
Johannes,
I have never tried pastels - yet as you mentioned in the beginning of your pastel demo, you prefer to have watercolor underpainting... I started thinking maybe I could learn more if I try to rescue my unlucky watercolors by painting on them with pastels.
A friend just brought me her 30+ years old pastels so I could test before buying some. Here the first attempt of rescue operation - the first watercolor I posted here with lots of questions. Now I toned down the colors and just played around.

here my watercolor (a bad one!!!)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0607.jpg

and here the toned down version with pastels on top of it

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0618mm.jpg

I'm not "there" yet, due to lack of experience, yet I love this detail

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0618mmdet.jpg

hey this is fun! Strange though that age old pastels still work!

hungariancontessa
03-18-2011, 07:17 AM
Try to connect all the mid dark shapes together in one mass. If you can't then form as many large masses as possible. You can connect them visually with the rock in the middle of the waterfall. Is that your painting or is that a zoom in?

Thank you for commenting on my work, I appreciate the information.
Yes, this is the whole painting. I focused on water and rocks, and tried to simplify the background with the trees.

allydoodle
03-18-2011, 08:20 AM
hey this is fun! Strange though that age old pastels still work!
__________________
Raxu :wave:
----------
carpe diem



Artists' grade pastels never 'go bad'. They remain the same, ready to be used whenever you want. That's part of the beauty of pastels. Student grades, or lower quality grades may have lightfast issues and not remain usable due to the loss of color, but if you have artists' grade pastels, they are like jewels that never change. Just do a little research before purchasing, and you won't go wrong. Can you tell I just love them :lol: ? Nice save, by the way!

raxu
03-18-2011, 08:30 AM
Chris - thanks for the professional's opinion. I just checked some of your threads - wow, I'm overwhelmed...

Arantxa
03-18-2011, 10:00 AM
Johannes, I chose the first photo: coast with fog.
I am new to oil painting and am trying to get the atmosphere of the place. The finished painting has a different perspective, as looking from a higher level and I found the rocks very difficult to do.
As I understand, in fog conditions, we work with less saturated colors and high key. The final painting has only two value masses.
Thank you for your comments.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/190983-foggy_day2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/190983-foggy_day2_copy.jpg

firesignart
03-18-2011, 11:08 AM
Here is the gray scale version of my 16x20" painting in acrylic. They look a bit darker here than is true. Thanks!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/97017-waterfallgray.jpgthe big shapes looked too harsh
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/97017-step2valuemap.jpgI started with this, I might like this the best...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/97017-valuemapwaterfall.jpg

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 11:30 AM
I'm not sure if you saw this, Johannes. You had pointed out clones on the two middle peaks of the rock formation. I think I got rid of them, yes?

Also tweaked a little elsewhere.

I'm hoping for further suggestions while it's still taped on the board and sitting on my easel. (It's pastel on Canson, 12x16)

Thanks for your great eye and comments -- and this class! I can sense my own growth and confidence. Amazing!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_5-rev-sm.jpg

Ruthie57
03-18-2011, 12:19 PM
I did a thumbnail for this with the BG hills mid light, RH trees mid dark and the rest mid value. But I couldn't make it work! The stony "beach" just needed to be mid light. So I made that and the far water mid light, tried to bring the mid darks across so the painting didn't look too heavy on one side and have probably messed it up in the process!

Here's the ref. I cropped the sky right out.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/189061-135220-DSC02394.jpg

And here is my pastel filled canson, 13x11"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/189061-18.3_13x11.jpg

RSBell
03-18-2011, 12:40 PM
Hi Johannes
I have been attending your lessons and enjoying them greatly. thanks for posting the photos for us to paint. they are inspiring and thats what I need to keep going. I was immediately struck by the river scene and the easy focal point of the boat. I cropped the photo to place the boat in the lower left quandrant of the rule of thirds. In my drawing of the scene I enlarged the boat for emphasis and that may have changed the layout but I like it. I chose to change the upper right mountain range to add the melodic line. I also greatly deemphasized the mountain to prevent the eye trap in that large light hole in the upper left. I use acrylics and may have used too many brights and too many hard edges. I really like the soft pastel look that you and Cldye Aspevig are able to accomplish. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/217303-135220-DSC02589Johannes-V-.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/217303-Whitewater-for-Web.gif

LadyMadonna
03-18-2011, 01:31 PM
I chose to do the waterfall photograph and did crop it on the left,right, and bottom to give more focal point to the falls itself. I did a thumbnail sketch for the first time as usually I just draw the masses right onto the paper. I blocked in the color in pastels on Canson paper. As I continued into this project, I let go of the photograph and continued doing what I thought would enhance the painting ( not sure if it did ). In my mind's eye I saw this as being a solitary place deep in the wood's of northern Canada. I tried to get some depth and value and look for cloning. I added the branch as a lead in ..not sure if that worked but hopefully it took you to the mist of the falls. As so often I got lost in this project and had to stop myself as I never know when I am quite done. Being new to all of this I am anxious for the critique and to fix the mistakes when I am aware of them.
Thank you Johannes for allowing all of us to learn and grow,

Colorix
03-18-2011, 01:46 PM
A friend just brought me her 30+ years old pastels so I could test before buying some.


Very nice how you changed the painting with pastels! You have a good friend there, who let you use her pastels. Pastels are basically pigment plus water shaped into a stick, and dried, so they last forever (cave paintings 30 000 years old still look like new). No oil that goes yellow and brittle and dirty with age. And much easier to control than watercolours. Someone said "pastel is the dust on the wings of a butterfly" -- that's how beautiful they are!

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 02:16 PM
I chose to do the waterfall photograph and did crop it on the left,right, and bottom to give more focal point to the falls itself. I did a thumbnail sketch for the first time as usually I just draw the masses right onto the paper. I blocked in the color in pastels on Canson paper. As I continued into this project, I let go of the photograph and continued doing what I thought would enhance the painting ( not sure if it did ). In my mind's eye I saw this as being a solitary place deep in the wood's of northern Canada. I tried to get some depth and value and look for cloning. I added the branch as a lead in ..not sure if that worked but hopefully it took you to the mist of the falls. As so often I got lost in this project and had to stop myself as I never know when I am quite done. Being new to all of this I am anxious for the critique and to fix the mistakes when I am aware of them.
Thank you Johannes for allowing all of us to learn and grow,
Well, Donna, I'm glad you also posted on Facebook, so I could see what you are referring to. :) I hope you get the uploader to work. I like your painting, think it worked, altho I wonder, is it really as dark as it shows up on FB? Probably a photo issue...

I look forward to your posting it here and seeing J's comments.

LadyMadonna
03-18-2011, 02:41 PM
I am still trying to edit and upload now ..been an all day project !

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 03:52 PM
sorry, noticed the second one has not the same low intensity level as in the painting. Unfortunately I could not edit my post anymore, so here once again - this is more like the situation is.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0614_tokamuok.jpg
I would still spray the crevices. they stand out too much.Make them just a bit darker than the rocks.

susanc
03-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Question -How do you lighten values (for dry grass for example) without creating chalky look, painting wet on wet technique?

I really need some help with this, causing problems in all my oil paintings, and I cant seem to figure out a solution. Thanks a bunch.
Notes from the November class on deciduous trees--Johannes recommended the following paint colors to make greens: Yellow Ochre Pale, Burnt Sienna, Viridian. He also mentioned Cadmium Yellow, saying to reserve it only for rescuing chalky mixes. He doesn't recommend it under normal mixing circumstances.

Titanium white cools and slightly neutralizes paint mixtures, so in many cases you have to add back in some warmth into your mixes to offset this tendency. This is especially important when you're painting sunlit areas, since warm color helps simulate the warmth (both color and temperature) of the sun's influence on the landscape.

Will write again if I come across more info... :) Having a bit of the same problem myself! :rolleyes:

LadyMadonna
03-18-2011, 03:54 PM
Finally an upload :
I chose to do the waterfall photograph and did crop it on the left,right, and bottom to give more focal point to the falls itself. I did a thumbnail sketch for the first time as usually I just draw the masses right onto the paper. I blocked in the color in pastels on Canson paper. As I continued into this project, I let go of the photograph and continued doing what I thought would enhance the painting ( not sure if it did ). In my mind's eye I saw this as being a solitary enchanted place deep in the wood's of northern Canada. I tried to get some depth and value and look for cloning. I added the branch as a lead in ..not sure if that worked but hopefully it took you to the mist of the falls. As so often I got lost in this project and had to stop myself as I never know when I am quite done. Being new to all of this I am anxious for the critique and to fix the mistakes when I am aware of them.
Thank you Johannes for allowing all of us to learn and grow,

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 03:54 PM
Very nice how you changed the painting with pastels! You have a good friend there, who let you use her pastels. Pastels are basically pigment plus water shaped into a stick, and dried, so they last forever (cave paintings 30 000 years old still look like new). No oil that goes yellow and brittle and dirty with age. And much easier to control than watercolours. Someone said "pastel is the dust on the wings of a butterfly" -- that's how beautiful they are!
There are also water soluble pastels. So you can make watercolor effects as well. Colorix is right pastels would have the longest permanance of all pigments.

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 03:56 PM
Finally an upload :
I chose to do the waterfall photograph and did crop it on the left,right, and bottom to give more focal point to the falls itself. I did a thumbnail sketch for the first time as usually I just draw the masses right onto the paper. I blocked in the color in pastels on Canson paper. As I continued into this project, I let go of the photograph and continued doing what I thought would enhance the painting ( not sure if it did ). In my mind's eye I saw this as being a solitary enchanted place deep in the wood's of northern Canada. I tried to get some depth and value and look for cloning. I added the branch as a lead in ..not sure if that worked but hopefully it took you to the mist of the falls. As so often I got lost in this project and had to stop myself as I never know when I am quite done. Being new to all of this I am anxious for the critique and to fix the mistakes when I am aware of them.
Thank you Johannes for allowing all of us to learn and grow,
the water looks great. There is too much repetition at top left and check your cloned stones in the middle of the waterfall.

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 03:58 PM
Hi Johannes
I have been attending your lessons and enjoying them greatly. thanks for posting the photos for us to paint. they are inspiring and thats what I need to keep going. I was immediately struck by the river scene and the easy focal point of the boat. I cropped the photo to place the boat in the lower left quandrant of the rule of thirds. In my drawing of the scene I enlarged the boat for emphasis and that may have changed the layout but I like it. I chose to change the upper right mountain range to add the melodic line. I also greatly deemphasized the mountain to prevent the eye trap in that large light hole in the upper left. I use acrylics and may have used too many brights and too many hard edges. I really like the soft pastel look that you and Cldye Aspevig are able to accomplish. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/217303-135220-DSC02589Johannes-V-.gif http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/217303-Whitewater-for-Web.gifI see too many value 8 or darker in the painting. Try connecting the two middle yellow trees. They are too broken by the evergreen. Remember keep you value masses conected the most you can.

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 04:00 PM
I did a thumbnail for this with the BG hills mid light, RH trees mid dark and the rest mid value. But I couldn't make it work! The stony "beach" just needed to be mid light. So I made that and the far water mid light, tried to bring the mid darks across so the painting didn't look too heavy on one side and have probably messed it up in the process!

Here's the ref. I cropped the sky right out.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/189061-135220-DSC02394.jpg

And here is my pastel filled canson, 13x11"

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/189061-18.3_13x11.jpg
Good mass design but you can still lighten the mid dark mass ( At least what I see in the photo). I see a bit too much value 8 in there.

LadyMadonna
03-18-2011, 04:13 PM
Thank you Johannes I will work on that and repost .

Ruthie57
03-18-2011, 04:35 PM
Good mass design but you can still lighten the mid dark mass ( At least what I see in the photo). I see a bit too much value 8 in there.

Yes you're right Johannes (of course). Why didn't I notice that? That is one area where the tooth isn't full so an easy fix. Thanks!

raxu
03-18-2011, 05:31 PM
There are also water soluble pastels. So you can make watercolor effects as well. Colorix is right pastels would have the longest permanance of all pigments.

thanks for the great advice Johannes, I did not know there are pastels which are water soluble. Do they give the same effect as "normal" pastels? I feel tempted to try pastels, to be able to express myself more freely... hmmm... I mean to correct all the mistakes when finishing. With watercolors this is often the problem, for instance saving the lights :D . And it happens all the time I don't know when to stop - I notice it only afterwards I have overdone it.

You certainly have introduced me a new way of looking and thinking, with your classes - and I can see the books I ordered confirm this. I consider myself as being very fortunate having "accidentaly" found your classes.

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 05:54 PM
I did not know there are pastels which are water soluble. Do they give the same effect as "normal" pastels?
Aren't all soft pastels water soluble? All the ones I use are. Or you can use turp or alcohol. Two main issues I've found with putting down an underpainting:
- Don't put too much pastel on or it will be too dark and dense. Just a loose scrawl is often enough. You can always add more.
- It's the surface that may give you the problems. I know Wallis is terrific. Canson does not work at all. Art Spectrum tends to warp a little. As for Uart and Pastelmat - I'm not sure - they both say you can use wet media but I haven't yet. Others? I don't know.

Go check out Richard McKinley and his blog (Pastel Pointers) to see some wonderful underpainting.

Dougwas
03-18-2011, 06:34 PM
This is my first EVER acrylic painting. I have been painting in pastels for about four or five years, but I just couldn't get my hand to do what my brain was telling it. It was time to try something different. My daughter left me her acrylic paints when she took off for university, so I figured I would give them a try.

The value of the water is a little darker than the ground, but I think it reads right. I did some negative painting into the tree tops and it instantly improved the painting. I enjoyed playing with the paint and mixing colors, so there will be more acrylic paintings to come.

It is painted on 11 x 8.5 gessoed watercolor paper. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.


Doug

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 07:29 PM
This is my first EVER acrylic painting. I have been painting in pastels for about four or five years, but I just couldn't get my hand to do what my brain was telling it. It was time to try something different. My daughter left me her acrylic paints when she took off for university, so I figured I would give them a try.

The value of the water is a little darker than the ground, but I think it reads right. I did some negative painting into the tree tops and it instantly improved the painting. I enjoyed playing with the paint and mixing colors, so there will be more acrylic paintings to come.

It is painted on 11 x 8.5 gessoed watercolor paper. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.


Doug

I see all the trees at the left are cloned.

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 07:34 PM
Aren't all soft pastels water soluble? All the ones I use are. Or you can use turp or alcohol. Two main issues I've found with putting down an underpainting:
- Don't put too much pastel on or it will be too dark and dense. Just a loose scrawl is often enough. You can always add more.
- It's the surface that may give you the problems. I know Wallis is terrific. Canson does not work at all. Art Spectrum tends to warp a little. As for Uart and Pastelmat - I'm not sure - they both say you can use wet media but I haven't yet. Others? I don't know.

Go check out Richard McKinley and his blog (Pastel Pointers) to see some wonderful underpainting.
I believe there are some specific ones that are more easily water soluble. Maybe someone in our group will put some time in and post some info on this. Maybe Robert will do the research.

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 07:35 PM
Okay, while waiting for Johannes to comment, I couldn't help tweaking. Those two protrusions to the right of the major rock formation bothered me - similar widths in pos & neg shapes I think, altho someone else thought similar depths in the neg spaces.... so I changed both width & depth. :)

Also tweaked in some of the trees in the three major groups/planes.

Comments?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_6-rev-sm800.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 07:36 PM
thanks for the great advice Johannes, I did not know there are pastels which are water soluble. Do they give the same effect as "normal" pastels? I feel tempted to try pastels, to be able to express myself more freely... hmmm... I mean to correct all the mistakes when finishing. With watercolors this is often the problem, for instance saving the lights :D . And it happens all the time I don't know when to stop - I notice it only afterwards I have overdone it.

You certainly have introduced me a new way of looking and thinking, with your classes - and I can see the books I ordered confirm this. I consider myself as being very fortunate having "accidentaly" found your classes.
I feel fortunate having met you all as well.

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 07:38 PM
Okay, while waiting for Johannes to comment, I couldn't help tweaking. Those two protrusions to the right of the major rock formation bothered me - similar widths in pos & neg shapes I think, altho someone else thought similar depths in the neg spaces.... so I changed both width & depth. :)

Also tweaked in some of the trees in the three major groups/planes.

Comments?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_6-rev-sm800.jpg
Did you upload the same picture because I see the same mountain?

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 08:08 PM
Did you upload the same picture because I see the same mountain?
No, in the first version, you pointed out that the two inner peaks on that major rock formation were clones.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_4-rev-sm800.jpg

I worked on that, changing heights and widths, sort of merging the two left peaks together, trying to make them different. Here's the second version I posted.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_5-rev-sm.jpg

More recently, I worked on those two little protrusions to the right of the main rock formation, making them more different in height, width, shape, and depth of neg space. So here's the third version. (Also tweaked a little in the trees)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_6-rev-sm800.jpg

So I'm happy to work on another version if you have suggestions. :)

Dougwas
03-18-2011, 08:29 PM
I see all the trees at the left are cloned.


Thanks, Joe. I will work on the trees.


Doug

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 08:41 PM
No, in the first version, you pointed out that the two inner peaks on that major rock formation were clones.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_4-rev-sm800.jpg

I worked on that, changing heights and widths, sort of merging the two left peaks together, trying to make them different. Here's the second version I posted.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_5-rev-sm.jpg

More recently, I worked on those two little protrusions to the right of the main rock formation, making them more different in height, width, shape, and depth of neg space. So here's the third version. (Also tweaked a little in the trees)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_6-rev-sm800.jpg

So I'm happy to work on another version if you have suggestions. :)
See the hat shaped rock at the left? Look right in the middle. You have a clone there.

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 08:52 PM
See the hat shaped rock at the left? Look right in the middle. You have a clone there.
Those two little almost-but-not-quite-parallel lines? You know, I actually worked on those so they wouldn't match each other!! Apparently not enough... :(

Anything else? Give it ALL to me. Every time I revise the painting, it takes me a half hour to get out the tripod, attach my camera, adjust the light, focus, take a photo, attach the cable between camera and computer, find the right photo, download it onto my computer, crop it, adjust it so it's closer to the painting, resize it, and deal with WetCanvas uploader to get it onto this site. I'd rather do all my fixes at one time so I go thru that hassle fewer times.

Thanks!

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 08:55 PM
Those two little almost-but-not-quite-parallel lines? You know, I actually worked on those so they wouldn't match each other!! Apparently not enough... :(

Anything else? Give it ALL to me. Every time I revise the painting, it takes me a half hour to get out the tripod, attach my camera, adjust the light, focus, take a photo, attach the cable between camera and computer, find the right photo, download it onto my computer, crop it, adjust it so it's closer to the painting, resize it, and deal with WetCanvas uploader to get it onto this site. I'd rather do all my fixes at one time so I go thru that hassle fewer times.

Thanks!
Visually not scientifcally they are cloned

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 09:34 PM
Visually not scientifcally they are cloned
Yes, I see that. (They were even worse before. :) )

What else do you see that needs improvement? (I'd like to make all the changes at once. It takes longer to get it to you than to make the changes.)

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 09:43 PM
Those two little almost-but-not-quite-parallel lines? You know, I actually worked on those so they wouldn't match each other!! Apparently not enough... :(

Anything else? Give it ALL to me. Every time I revise the painting, it takes me a half hour to get out the tripod, attach my camera, adjust the light, focus, take a photo, attach the cable between camera and computer, find the right photo, download it onto my computer, crop it, adjust it so it's closer to the painting, resize it, and deal with WetCanvas uploader to get it onto this site. I'd rather do all my fixes at one time so I go thru that hassle fewer times.

Thanks!
I would do something with the slingshot "V" of the tree at the left. Thats about it

sherrysherman
03-18-2011, 09:46 PM
I would do something with the slingshot "V" of the tree at the left. Thats about it
Thanks. I'll see what I can do. ("But Johannes, that's what the tree in the photo does!" ..... just a joke, Jo!)

Johannes Instructor
03-18-2011, 09:54 PM
Thanks. I'll see what I can do. ("But Johannes, that's what the tree in the photo does!" ..... just a joke, Jo!)

Don't scare me. LOL.

Marike
03-18-2011, 10:25 PM
Hi! I don't have oils and have never tried acrylics, so I used watercolor because that is what I have. C&C please. Thanks.680493

99country
03-19-2011, 12:28 AM
I painted this in oil and would appreciate any comments.

Alta Imp
03-19-2011, 01:48 AM
Hi Johannes,
Hoping you can give me some c&c on this. I've just started painting in oils and plan on doing this picture (soon as the toner is dry) but thought I would try it in watercolor first. Thank you so much for sharing all that hard to come by information!
Barb

raxu
03-19-2011, 04:22 AM
Hi again Johannes,

tried to improve the rocks by washing out the dark lines and adding some color to create a better lead-in... I wonder if I overreacted again :confused:

here the original one for easier comparison

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/171274-Felsen_und_Nebel_2.jpg
noticed the heart-shaped (unconscious!) green area in the middle prevents to go deeper to the painting.

so... here the over (overover?) worked one - now we can take a walk nearly around the pond. I like this better.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0620m.jpg

I also toned the BG slightly with blue to add depth and softened the edges, as well. The middle tree goup was also modified a bit because the original ones looked too neat... almost cloned! (See how you managed to brainwash me, in the positive way!)

Should I paint this again... I still have white paper :rolleyes: One thing is bothering me still: can the backgound hill (partly in fog) be understood as such? Or do you see sky only?

Ruthie57
03-19-2011, 05:11 AM
Aren't all soft pastels water soluble? All the ones I use are. Or you can use turp or alcohol. Two main issues I've found with putting down an underpainting:
- Don't put too much pastel on or it will be too dark and dense. Just a loose scrawl is often enough. You can always add more.
- It's the surface that may give you the problems. I know Wallis is terrific. Canson does not work at all. Art Spectrum tends to warp a little. As for Uart and Pastelmat - I'm not sure - they both say you can use wet media but I haven't yet. Others? I don't know.

Go check out Richard McKinley and his blog (Pastel Pointers) to see some wonderful underpainting.

I don't know if there are specific brands of pastel which are sold as water soluble but, as Sherry says, all of them can be used dry on the right paper and then wetted with a brush. I wouldn't dip my pstels in water though!!
Pastelmat is great for wet underpaintings, does not warp, but takes a while to dry. Uart can also be wet and so can the British equivalent, Fisher 400.

raxu
03-19-2011, 05:32 AM
Thanks Sherry and Ruthie. I checked the pastels I just got and tried... they are OIL pastels! That's why I did not understand the water soluble alternatives - so you see I have no experience in these! I guess I just go on painting in watercolors and see what I could achieve with those old oil pastels. One question though: when an artist says his/her work is a pastel painting - is it then always a soft pastel one - not oil pastel? How can you tell?

N.Ramchandran
03-19-2011, 05:37 AM
I chose the WATERFALL for my painting and cropped the image a little on the left side to bring the waterfall more to the left.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/71956-Painting_Homework_6.jpg
Cropped image is below.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/71956-Painting_Homework-Cropped.jpg
I made 2 thumbnail sketches and chose the No 2 image for my painting in Watercolor.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/71956-IMG_0024.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/71956-IMG_0025.JPG
Here is the final painting.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/71956-Class_work_2.jpg

Hello Johannes, I request your critique, and suggestions and help.

This is the first watercolor painting after many, many years.

Ruthie57
03-19-2011, 06:23 AM
Thanks Sherry and Ruthie. I checked the pastels I just got and tried... they are OIL pastels! That's why I did not understand the water soluble alternatives - so you see I have no experience in these! I guess I just go on painting in watercolors and see what I could achieve with those old oil pastels. One question though: when an artist says his/her work is a pastel painting - is it then always a soft pastel one - not oil pastel? How can you tell?

Hi Raxu. I think generally if a painting is described as pastel it will be soft pastel. If it's oil pastel it will be called that. I've never used oil pastels so can't give you any tips on them. There is an oil pastel forum on WC though. Check it out. Our own Robert Sloan has experience with them too. The difference, as I understand it, is that they are both pigment in a dry form but the binder for soft pastels includes water and oil pastels it is, of course, oil.

Colorix
03-19-2011, 06:51 AM
Nearly all Soft Pastels (Dry Pastels) are water soluble, some student grade float...

Oil Pastels has a brand that is water soluble, Robert would know which.

Pastel is dry/soft pastel, and oil pastel is oil pastel. For some, the difference matters a lot. OPs are nice, and the technique is a little different, for example I've found the need to work from light to dark, as they are more transparent than softies and highlights can be tricky. OPs are a very underestimated medium that deserves more recognition.

Pastelmat does beautifully wet, but has to be stretched. (Clamps make indentations.)

LadyMadonna
03-19-2011, 07:34 AM
I tried to rework the problem areas last night. I found I was getting too detailed with the left side trees that you said were too much the same, and remembered what you said about clumping them together as a mass, hopefully creating distance ..not sure if I achieved that ..
Was not sure what waterfall rocks you were referring to so I tried to unclone them all...
Patience & practise.

Johannes Instructor
03-19-2011, 08:01 AM
I tried to rework the problem areas last night. I found I was getting too detailed with the left side trees that you said were too much the same, and remembered what you said about clumping them together as a mass, hopefully creating distance ..not sure if I achieved that ..
Was not sure what waterfall rocks you were referring to so I tried to unclone them all...
Patience & practise.
You are trying to fit the evergreens at the left in a box. Only leave a few gaps for the sky.

LadyMadonna
03-19-2011, 08:18 AM
I am to understand you want the left side mostly trees then without the sky? Not sure I understand.
Maybe I need more coffee..

Arantxa
03-19-2011, 10:30 AM
Hi Johannes, I am looking forward to your comments about my painting; as I am learning, I realize how little I know.
Your"Value chart applied to daylight scenes" is extremely useful.
Could you think about a similar Chart for different seasons or times of day?
Just an indication would be very appreciated.
I will consider myself a good artist when am able to express the atmosphere of a particular time or weather effect. That is my goal.

Thank you so much for your webinar; it has made an enormous difference already being able to understand at last!!! about value masses.


Gracias, gracias, muchas gracias

Stephanie_Draws
03-19-2011, 11:11 AM
I used the first one and changed the angle to focus on the cliffs. Well, also radically the weather conditions and time of day :wink2:
Pastel on cheap toned paper, so I really had to be disciplined with the layers. I think I'll darken it a bit later, it's imo a bit too colourful now. For me it was an amazingly fast painting, 2 hours with planning and sketching included. That's thanks to watching your demos and trying to paint along, Johannes! :D

Attention: the thing was a bit too big to scan - there's 2'' more space to the left and approximately 1,5'' in all other directions. When I have time I'll scan it in two parts.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/765572-Schooner_Head_web800.jpg

sherrysherman
03-19-2011, 12:53 PM
Okay, this could be the last before class today. I redid the left part of the major rock formation and, hopefully, removed the clones (of course, I fix one thing and it forms other clones... just keep de-cloning). Also, hopefully, fixed the slingshot in the tree.

Did these fixes work? Anything else? (Again, thanks for your fresh discerning eye.)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/616112-sedona_path_7-rev-sm800.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-19-2011, 12:54 PM
Hi again Johannes,

tried to improve the rocks by washing out the dark lines and adding some color to create a better lead-in... I wonder if I overreacted again :confused:

here the original one for easier comparison

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/171274-Felsen_und_Nebel_2.jpg
noticed the heart-shaped (unconscious!) green area in the middle prevents to go deeper to the painting.

so... here the over (overover?) worked one - now we can take a walk nearly around the pond. I like this better.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0620m.jpg

I also toned the BG slightly with blue to add depth and softened the edges, as well. The middle tree goup was also modified a bit because the original ones looked too neat... almost cloned! (See how you managed to brainwash me, in the positive way!)

Should I paint this again... I still have white paper :rolleyes: One thing is bothering me still: can the backgound hill (partly in fog) be understood as such? Or do you see sky only?
Do you agree it is easier to look at when you keep the values closer in a mass?

Johannes Instructor
03-19-2011, 01:01 PM
Johannes, I chose the first photo: coast with fog.
I am new to oil painting and am trying to get the atmosphere of the place. The finished painting has a different perspective, as looking from a higher level and I found the rocks very difficult to do.
As I understand, in fog conditions, we work with less saturated colors and high key. The final painting has only two value masses.
Thank you for your comments.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/190983-foggy_day2.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Mar-2011/190983-foggy_day2_copy.jpg

The photo contrast is not good but I do see you stuck to your value plan.

Johannes Instructor
03-19-2011, 01:06 PM
Artists' grade pastels never 'go bad'. They remain the same, ready to be used whenever you want. That's part of the beauty of pastels. Student grades, or lower quality grades may have lightfast issues and not remain usable due to the loss of color, but if you have artists' grade pastels, they are like jewels that never change. Just do a little research before purchasing, and you won't go wrong. Can you tell I just love them :lol: ? Nice save, by the way!
Chris is correct. Pastels is the medium with the longest permanance of all mediums.

raxu
03-19-2011, 01:17 PM
Do you agree it is easier to look at when you keep the values closer in a mass?

yes, yes, yes! And KIITOS - that's Finnish for THANK YOU!

marionh
03-19-2011, 01:20 PM
Here is my effort based on photo No 8.
27x33cm oil on canvas coated cardboard.

I've tried to remove some of the blueness that my camera seems to pick up but could not reduce it more without affecting the other colours.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/42113-Painting_1_800x600.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/42113-Painting_1_greyscale_800x600.jpg

I'd love your comments for improvements. I've tried very hard with my values but the painting lacks light and colour. Tried to correct this but with no success.

Dougwas
03-19-2011, 01:31 PM
Okay, I tried to declone the left hand trees by painting the sky and background mountain into the trees and using different oranges and yellows in each tree, going from a warmer orange in the closest tree to a cooler yellow in the last tree. I also gave the stream a more melodic line.

Thanks again, Johannes. Even though I have a ton of room for improvement, I now paint with more confidence than I ever have before meeting you last December. I can't thank you enough.

Doug

sagirard
03-19-2011, 01:56 PM
Here is my painting for homework today, Sat March 19. I'm really struggling trying to find out how to upload it. I already uploaded to the library with 'approval pending' in the message. trying to upload to this thread, hope I can. Susan Hogan Girard

jfwalton
03-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Somehow the photo isn't coming up.

Tresgatos
03-19-2011, 02:18 PM
Hello,

Didn't have a chance to complete my painting but did do some color studies to try to make up my mind which works the best and am posting these two (watercolor) plus the value map.

Barbara

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/113757-Waterfall_Value_Map_-_3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/113757-Color_Test_1.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/113757-Color_Test_2.jpg

Rosemarie
03-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Wow Threecats! I love your painting!

jfwalton
03-19-2011, 02:40 PM
My painting

jfwalton
03-19-2011, 02:49 PM
Will try this.

sagirard
03-19-2011, 03:08 PM
susan Girard

Pinklady219
03-19-2011, 03:40 PM
Here is my painting (did this today). I was forced to scan it and did not get the whole pic. :clap: Thank you for your critique Johannes. I very much appreciate it. (anyone else's too) :D

kellyskye
03-19-2011, 03:50 PM
Hi this is my first real try at doing on line classes I signed up for last week and didn;t get the time change right. I am a watercolorist , I hope I have the time right for today 3pm pacific.
I won't have time to do work for this class but hope to catch up.
Margaret

jfwalton
03-19-2011, 03:59 PM
Pine

kittierue
03-19-2011, 04:02 PM
I posted over in another thread.
680539

allydoodle
03-19-2011, 05:51 PM
Chris - thanks for the professional's opinion. I just checked some of your threads - wow, I'm overwhelmed...
__________________
Raxu :wave:



Thanks so much Raxu. I really appreciate your nice comments.

Soft pastels are really beautiful to work with, especially if you like watercolors. Right now I'm up to using 10 brands of pastels, and they all seem to be water soluable. I believe for the most part all 'soft pastels' can be touched with water to create an underpainting. A little goes a long way, as they are pigment rich. Once the water hits them, they can be spread with the brush. When they dry, they almost go back to their dusty-selves. Most people then go over that with the dry pastel to create their painting. This works well on watercolor paper. There is a ton of information over in the Pastel Forum. You can go to Pastel Talk, type a topic in the search this forum spot, and have many of your questions answered. If you don't have the question answered there, you can always just start your own thread to ask your question.

To answer your question 'what is a pastel painting?', most every time it refers to soft pastels. Oil pastels are entirely different, and I believe very often solvents are used with brushes to achieve very special effects. It is a beautiful medium as well, just very different. They are referred to as 'oil pastels'. They have their own forum here on Wet Canvas.

And, just a brief description about soft pastels: They are made from the same pigment as is used in making watercolors, oils, acrylics and gouache. Different binders are used to produce a different product. Pastels are the most archival, and the purest of paint pigments. So, when you are buying artists' quality pastels, you are getting very high quality paint, it is just manufactured in a different way, and applied to the painting surface without a brush (for the most part), and most often it is applied dry, not wet (unless you try a wet method like I mentioned above. I have used both water and alchohol to apply an underpainting with pastels, sometimes using a brush, sometimes a spray bottle with water or alchohol in it.) There are many more methods of underpainting, types of paper, types of pastels, the possibilities sometimes seem endless, it's quite a lot of fun.

As you can see, this is a very versatile medium to work with. I hope I have answered some questions for you, and maybe given you some ideas to try. Come visit is over in the Pastel Forum, we're a fun bunch too! :)

Silverlark
03-19-2011, 06:33 PM
Here is my painting (did this today). I was forced to scan it and did not get the whole pic. :clap: Thank you for your critique Johannes. I very much appreciate it. (anyone else's too) :D

You can scan in 2 halves, then join them using Levels to adjust the values until both halves match and you can't see the seam. It will work in both color and in greyscale. This will produce an image good enough to use for class c&c.

rugman
03-19-2011, 06:59 PM
Thanks again Johannes for another great class session. I had most of your suggested changes done before the class started. I learned a lot from this little painting. I am also pleased by the reaction of others, for I was initially indifferent for how this turned out. Now I like it more. Glazing worked good, never done that before.

Final painting w/ suggested changes from Jo
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/81164-barn!r.jpg

The original ref photo:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/81164-JohannesRbarn.jpg

LadyMadonna
03-19-2011, 07:17 PM
That is a great painting Ron. I admired it today during the webinar as well.

Johannes Instructor
03-19-2011, 07:21 PM
Thanks so much Raxu. I really appreciate your nice comments.

Soft pastels are really beautiful to work with, especially if you like watercolors. Right now I'm up to using 10 brands of pastels, and they all seem to be water soluable. I believe for the most part all 'soft pastels' can be touched with water to create an underpainting. A little goes a long way, as they are pigment rich. Once the water hits them, they can be spread with the brush. When they dry, they almost go back to their dusty-selves. Most people then go over that with the dry pastel to create their painting. This works well on watercolor paper. There is a ton of information over in the Pastel Forum. You can go to Pastel Talk, type a topic in the search this forum spot, and have many of your questions answered. If you don't have the question answered there, you can always just start your own thread to ask your question.

To answer your question 'what is a pastel painting?', most every time it refers to soft pastels. Oil pastels are entirely different, and I believe very often solvents are used with brushes to achieve very special effects. It is a beautiful medium as well, just very different. They are referred to as 'oil pastels'. They have their own forum here on Wet Canvas.

And, just a brief description about soft pastels: They are made from the same pigment as is used in making watercolors, oils, acrylics and gouache. Different binders are used to produce a different product. Pastels are the most archival, and the purest of paint pigments. So, when you are buying artists' quality pastels, you are getting very high quality paint, it is just manufactured in a different way, and applied to the painting surface without a brush (for the most part), and most often it is applied dry, not wet (unless you try a wet method like I mentioned above. I have used both water and alchohol to apply an underpainting with pastels, sometimes using a brush, sometimes a spray bottle with water or alchohol in it.) There are many more methods of underpainting, types of paper, types of pastels, the possibilities sometimes seem endless, it's quite a lot of fun.

As you can see, this is a very versatile medium to work with. I hope I have answered some questions for you, and maybe given you some ideas to try. Come visit is over in the Pastel Forum, we're a fun bunch too! :)
Thanks for your accurate input Chris.

robertsloan2
03-19-2011, 08:24 PM
Hello,

Didn't have a chance to complete my painting but did do some color studies to try to make up my mind which works the best and am posting these two (watercolor) plus the value map.

Barbara

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/113757-Waterfall_Value_Map_-_3.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/113757-Color_Test_1.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/113757-Color_Test_2.jpg

Threecats, I think your first watercolor study is a beautiful watercolor painting exactly as it is. I love it. They're both cool and I like the way you tried different things with them. That first one just slams, it's brilliant. I think it's that the abstract shapes are better and the overall design is better than the second layout.

You also handled the edges a lot better in the first one, especially the rough broken edges of falling water. The soft-edged background really works. The second one on a second look has more sameness about edges and the water isn't as soft or moving, it looks more solid.

allydoodle
03-19-2011, 08:59 PM
Thanks for your accurate input Chris.

You're so very welcome Johannes. You've given so much to WetCanvas, I'm happy to contribute when I can. I am thoroughly enjoying your webinars, this last one today on lost and found edges was terriffic, it is one of my favorite tools to use in paintings. I especially found the Sargent painting with the blurred legs fascinating - I never realized why that painting was so good, just that it was. He was a master at making things look so believable, it was so subtle and effective.

Again, thanks so much for all your insight, it is priceless.

pat-trew
03-19-2011, 09:01 PM
I THOUGHT I POSTED THIS AT 1PM SAT. BUT , NOT HERE SO TRY #2 THIS IS ACRYLIC, AS YOU SEE I DIDN'T LIKE THE CLUTTER OF ALL THE HOUSES, SO I WENT FOR THE LITTLE HOUSE ON THE HILL HOPE YOU SEE THIS I AM LOOKING FORWARD FOR YOUR CRITIQUE. THANK YOU PAT T.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Mar-2011/104250-boathouse_ref.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/105243-DSCN0657.JPG

Stephanie_Draws
03-19-2011, 10:00 PM
I've reworked my piece, made the colours less kitschy - though they're still a bit much imo, the paper however isn't able to hold more layers - and lightened and blended some parts. Some of the very dark spots you mentioned before break where due to the scan though, this one is better.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/765572-Acadia_Schooner_Head_Johannes_web.jpg

P.S. My pic was the last before the break and you didn't "play" with my homework in Photoshop - however during the after-show questioning it could be seen that you had it pulled over there. I was absent for 8 minutes during break: did you demonstrate something then? I'd like to know what you suggested for improvements. Is it something I could/should do with the one above also?

Nahant
03-19-2011, 11:05 PM
Painting is done with Nupastel on Strathmore sketch pad. C&C welcome.

Betty

karan55
03-20-2011, 12:07 AM
I wanted to practice before I tried painting on my drawn up watercolor paper (It took too many hours to get it drawn, to just blow it when I started painting); especially because this is a totally different pallette than I have ever used, I am totally a beginner at the value masses and I am just beginning to use watercolors. I used a 6x9 cheap piece of paper and got the path sketched in quickly and just started painting.....funny thing was it was very freeing because I didn't care if I messed it up! I just played with the colors ..Ultramarine blue, transparent yellow, Indian Red, Quinacridone Gold, Quinacridone burnt orange...and tried to establish the masses as I had mapped it. I am glad I tested it out because now I have several questions and Problems that I noticed with my design and color mixing.

1. Are the trees on the right too dark? or.. Are the trees on the left not dark enough?

2. I had to lighten the middle section which is the background plane....but it does not look right. In the picture the trees on the left overlapped so I had to improvise on this section when I sshortened the Mid Dark down to 1/3. I'm not sure how to fix this??? (Picture is in Post#12 on this thread)

3. The tree trunks on the right were difficult for me color wise...to stay in the Mid-value and get them to look 3 dimensional.....what do I need???

P.S.
I used the quinacridones to replace the raw and burnt sienna because they are very transparent. I also had burnt umber on the pallet but never used it....I was afraid of going too dark.

This was just a quick play but it did teach me a lot; it was nice not worring about the final product. Thanks for all your help!!!!

raxu
03-20-2011, 06:03 AM
Thanks for your accurate input Chris.

Yes, thanks Johannes, that's what I wanted to say, too.
Sorry I "interfered" this thread with my pastel questions - yet, if someone else - in addition to me - learns new possibilities, I think it was worth it :thumbsup:

Need to go to my rock landscape version 3, with lost and found edges :D (fantastic lesson again!!!)

horsthh
03-20-2011, 01:14 PM
Thank you Johannes for all the work you do, here is my attempt at one of your photos, I pushed the colors quite a bit and used some happy colors, I hope the painting does not look to garish. I was unable to convey the look of bright sunlight bouncing of the rocks on the right side, maybe you could suggest a solution. Thanks for all the help you provide,
the 3 books I bought from your list are wonderful.

painterted
03-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Here is another try at one of your photos Johannes . I tried to fading some of the edges even in the mid dark at the top of the trees in the center of interest.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/909312-3341-CabinwithBrickFireplaceCabinHwy_small2-21-2011_5-05-17_PM.JPG
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/909312-P3190003.jpg

NeldaJansen
03-20-2011, 01:20 PM
Hi All:

Here is my example of Bad Shapes, Clones, Values too Dark, Lines along the treetops, Stacked Masses, Tangents, and I'm sure there are others as well. It's a lot to keep in your head as you work. But it is how we get better.

Looking forward to another session today, really got a lot out of the Edges Lesson yesterday. I'd never heard of Lost and Found edges, but what a gem that is!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/84957-Mountain_Stream_in_Shade_smaller.jpg

Based on two of the landscape photos.
Thanks, Johannes for all your efforst on our behalf. What an excellent teacher you are.

Best,
Nel Jansen

pastel lover
03-20-2011, 02:28 PM
Hi Johannes,

Really appreciate your teaching these wonderful classes. I know I am late with this homework but thought I would post anyway. This photo shows the horizontal lines in the rocks & darker trees as too bright. Much more muted IRL. I tried to PS it out but couldn't. Thanks!
Tanja
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/134540-Value_sketch.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/134540-HW_waterfall._72jpg

JFountain
03-20-2011, 02:39 PM
I really am not that great at landscapes. Your class has definitely helped me get a better understanding. Also I am new to oil painting but I gave it a shot. This painting is done in water soluble oils. Let me know what you think. Actually I'm going to put my first oil landscape ever before I took your class and then post the new one. Don't laugh lol. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/775222-first_oil_011.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/775222-johannes_landscape_pics.jpg

RSBell
03-20-2011, 10:01 PM
Hi Johannes
Thanks for the critique. I will definately value down my evergreens in future paintings . I learned a great deal in the class today on edges and immediately went to my studio and applied some of that on a new painting based on the same photo. I think I have done a much better job connecting my value mass in this one and softening many of the edges. thanks again for all that you are doing .

LadyMadonna
03-20-2011, 10:39 PM
I, as well, have offered my rework up for critique. I tried my best to fix that left side and I hope I did not overdo it. I am running out of layers and to be honest, sick of looking at this.
Time to put it away and start another. Before I do , I would like to know if I did what you asked me too?
Thank you again for your valuable time and" golden nuggets. "

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 09:12 AM
I've reworked my piece, made the colours less kitschy - though they're still a bit much imo, the paper however isn't able to hold more layers - and lightened and blended some parts. Some of the very dark spots you mentioned before break where due to the scan though, this one is better.



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/765572-Acadia_Schooner_Head_Johannes_web.jpg

P.S. My pic was the last before the break and you didn't "play" with my homework in Photoshop - however during the after-show questioning it could be seen that you had it pulled over there. I was absent for 8 minutes during break: did you demonstrate something then? I'd like to know what you suggested for improvements. Is it something I could/should do with the one above also?
I feel the rocks are taking up too much attention. This is one of the reasons why I taught the mass planning by values. The idea is to hide and disguise the distracting elements by matching their values to that of its mass. I tend to line the bases of rocks so that they point into the painting towards where we want to lead the viewer.

Yabut
03-21-2011, 09:12 AM
Okay, so I'm late with this but it would normally take me several weeks to complete a painting. I can't say I'm happy with this rush job, but it was worth the effort. After admitting, in the forum, that I was not comfortable with the idea of painting things that were not right in front of me, (in a photo or not) I did realize it would be a good learning experience and chose this photo:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/52194-original_house_photo.jpg

First I cropped it, but still was not satisfied with where the various elements landed as it had become long and skinny. I figured, if I'm not going paint the photo as it is, then I might as well alter it even more. I physically moved the rocks forward, making both the grassy hillside and the water areas larger. When I drew that on the paper, I decided that the house looked too small, so I enlarged that too. Until now Iíve always been afraid of taking something from one photo and sticking it in another, for fear of not making it the right size to fit into the new scene. The house in the painting is a LOT bigger than in the photo, but I can't tell if I made it too big to be believable or not.

The rocks and bottom area were to be my mid darks, the house and sky were the mid lights, and the rest was the middle values. Well, as I said, I'm not thrilled with the results, but I did learn a lot along the way as I tried to work out how to create a scene that is only loosely based on the photograph. I see most of the sky colour has washed out in this scan. It is light, but it does have colour in the painting. Iím uploading it, even if it is late, just to prove Iím trying.

Yabut

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/52194-House.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 09:41 AM
I, as well, have offered my rework up for critique. I tried my best to fix that left side and I hope I did not overdo it. I am running out of layers and to be honest, sick of looking at this.
Time to put it away and start another. Before I do , I would like to know if I did what you asked me too?
Thank you again for your valuable time and" golden nuggets. "
yes it did improve. See how your eye does not wander around the top anymore.
I'm starting to see some good things here. The painting does not have unnecessary darks and we have some wet on wet. The rocks can be more abstract though.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 09:46 AM
I really am not that great at landscapes. Your class has definitely helped me get a better understanding. Also I am new to oil painting but I gave it a shot. This painting is done in water soluble oils. Let me know what you think. Actually I'm going to put my first oil landscape ever before I took your class and then post the new one. Don't laugh lol. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/775222-first_oil_011.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/775222-johannes_landscape_pics.jpg

I see a train track shape with the river bank. Also the tree on the right is visually symmetrical.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 09:47 AM
Hi Johannes,

Really appreciate your teaching these wonderful classes. I know I am late with this homework but thought I would post anyway. This photo shows the horizontal lines in the rocks & darker trees as too bright. Much more muted IRL. I tried to PS it out but couldn't. Thanks!
Tanja
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/134540-HW_waterfall._72jpg

Nice depth. I would make the cliff less rounded. Round rocks reduce character. If you make them more angled the painting will improve.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 10:16 AM
Hi Johannes, I am looking forward to your comments about my painting; as I am learning, I realize how little I know.
Your"Value chart applied to daylight scenes" is extremely useful.
Could you think about a similar Chart for different seasons or times of day?
Just an indication would be very appreciated.
I will consider myself a good artist when am able to express the atmosphere of a particular time or weather effect. That is my goal.

Thank you so much for your webinar; it has made an enormous difference already being able to understand at last!!! about value masses.


Gracias, gracias, muchas gracias

The chart still applies until the sun gets very close to the horizon and turns to an orange glow, meaning the intensity of sunlight gets very dimmed bringing everything to a lower key. In that case what would be mid value would shift to mid dark.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 10:18 AM
Here is my painting for homework today, Sat March 19. I'm really struggling trying to find out how to upload it. I already uploaded to the library with 'approval pending' in the message. trying to upload to this thread, hope I can. Susan Hogan Girard
This painting is quite simplified which is a good thing. You are also staying with a value plan. If you feel the tree gets too heavy then you can chnage it to midvalue and it will longer weigh more. Remember pictorial balance is not based on the size of your shape but the value. The darker the value the more it weighs in the painting.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 10:25 AM
Here is my effort based on photo No 8.
27x33cm oil on canvas coated cardboard.

I've tried to remove some of the blueness that my camera seems to pick up but could not reduce it more without affecting the other colours.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/42113-Painting_1_800x600.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Mar-2011/42113-Painting_1_greyscale_800x600.jpg

I'd love your comments for improvements. I've tried very hard with my values but the painting lacks light and colour. Tried to correct this but with no success.
This is a good example of a painting that is all midvalue except the sky. Notice everyone how much it glows and how it conveys sunlight.

elisamaria
03-21-2011, 11:16 AM
I have chosen ref pic which I cropped like this
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/735472-135220-DSC02363.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/735472-P1030961.JPG

This is the result I tried to apply all what I have learnt during the fantastic classes. Comments and critique are very much welcome.
Elisabeth
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/735472-P1030960.JPG

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:24 PM
Threecats, I think your first watercolor study is a beautiful watercolor painting exactly as it is. I love it. They're both cool and I like the way you tried different things with them. That first one just slams, it's brilliant. I think it's that the abstract shapes are better and the overall design is better than the second layout.

You also handled the edges a lot better in the first one, especially the rough broken edges of falling water. The soft-edged background really works. The second one on a second look has more sameness about edges and the water isn't as soft or moving, it looks more solid.
I will comment on the top picture. I like thw waterfall. The rocks however are weak because they are round. It seems that this is a common denominator that needs repeating to everyone. MAKE ROCKS ANGULAR!!!!

raxu
03-21-2011, 12:30 PM
Now I tried many new things: never painted running water before (that's why I stopped at this point!), hardly ever used flat brush for watercolors (painted the whole picture with it) , tried to soften edges as teached yesterday (oops, just noticed the farmost hill/forest became sharp edged anyway... I can wash it), and the dead tree in front is the flat brush tree Johannes showed yesterday (partly negatively painted). So this was a real adventure!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0664.jpg

Originally, I planned to leave the front tree almost white - like silvery grey - but then it would not have been visible at all, and not optically soft (See Johannes how we learn, yet putting that in practise is not as easy :evil: )

I need help with the water, and whether I should try to wash out the tree colors in front, now the contrasts might break the value mass. Or????


Tried to avoid clones, geometrical shapes, train tracks etc. I wonder if Johannes still finds some :lol:

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:32 PM
I have chosen ref pic which I cropped like this



This is the result I tried to apply all what I have learnt during the fantastic classes. Comments and critique are very much welcome.
Elisabeth
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/735472-P1030960.JPG
By planning your masses you can separate the big tree in front from the trees in the background if the plane change is at a different value. So either make the trees in the background mid value and the big tree on the right a mid dark or the other way around.

Lin Frye
03-21-2011, 12:38 PM
Johannes:

I used a photograph I had (it's at home; I'm at work) to try to apply the principles of this class - but especially with regard to wet in wet (background trees, water) and massing tones. I very much appreciate your suggestions.

I think my trees are a tad too dark looking at them from my work computer -- I think they're a bit lighter in real life.

Linhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/82363-spring_azaleas_small.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Now I tried many new things: never painted running water before (that's why I stopped at this point!), hardly ever used flat brush for watercolors (painted the whole picture with it) , tried to soften edges as teached yesterday (oops, just noticed the farmost hill/forest became sharp edged anyway... I can wash it), and the dead tree in front is the flat brush tree Johannes showed yesterday (partly negatively painted). So this was a real adventure!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0664.jpg

Originally, I planned to leave the front tree almost white - like silvery grey - but then it would not have been visible at all, and not optically soft (See Johannes how we learn, yet putting that in practise is not as easy :evil: )

I need help with the water, and whether I should try to wash out the tree colors in front, now the contrasts might break the value mass. Or????


Tried to avoid clones, geometrical shapes, train tracks etc. I wonder if Johannes still finds some :lol:

I like your lead in lines. Ask yourself why you put that tree branch in front? Does it contribute to the composition or hamper it? I outlined a shape in the background. Do you like it. The far distant trees are well designed but that would've been a good opportunity to do it wet on wet.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/135220-shape.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:43 PM
Johannes:

I used a photograph I had (it's at home; I'm at work) to try to apply the principles of this class - but especially with regard to wet in wet (background trees, water) and massing tones. I very much appreciate your suggestions.

I think my trees are a tad too dark looking at them from my work computer -- I think they're a bit lighter in real life.

Linhttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/82363-spring_azaleas_small.jpg
First impression I liked it. The background is variegated and you harmonized the colors because they are repeated elsewhere. When I take a second look though you are dividing this into two parts. The water lines runs thru the middle. Either the top or the bottom half gets cropped. I would crop of some of the top because it is repetitive.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:50 PM
Hi All:

Here is my example of Bad Shapes, Clones, Values too Dark, Lines along the treetops, Stacked Masses, Tangents, and I'm sure there are others as well. It's a lot to keep in your head as you work. But it is how we get better.

Looking forward to another session today, really got a lot out of the Edges Lesson yesterday. I'd never heard of Lost and Found edges, but what a gem that is!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/84957-Mountain_Stream_in_Shade_smaller.jpg

Based on two of the landscape photos.
Thanks, Johannes for all your efforst on our behalf. What an excellent teacher you are.

Best,
Nel Jansen
This painting is working. We have a good value design and the different planes are showing. I congratulate you for the texture. many artists paint too thin. Yet lots of texture is no texture because it cancels it out. What works for me is I would add the heavy texture to the Mid dark tree and use thin texture for the background. By placing heavier texture in fronto of thin texture we help create the illusion of depth. I mentioned this in my webclass about creating a 3D look.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:52 PM
susan Girard
Usually a lazy "S" linear path is the best. Can you ad more foam to that or add more beach so you get that "S" movement? I'm sorry but the picture doesn't come up when I click on quote. But your name is there to identify the picture.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:54 PM
Pine
The pine looks neat. It is not too jagged. The mood is good too. Maybe you can do something about the triangular (concorde) protrusion and the gray shape under the tree needs some better designing. Visually it is a rectangle.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:56 PM
Here is my painting (did this today). I was forced to scan it and did not get the whole pic. :clap: Thank you for your critique Johannes. I very much appreciate it. (anyone else's too) :D
Good job on the waterfall but it seems to be more a study than a painting. I did teach about cropping but if we overdo it we suffocate the viewer. This would've worked out better with more of a zoom out. I realize you did not scan the whole thing so I can only go by what I see.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 12:58 PM
I posted over in another thread.
680539
Can you slow down the visual line from the dirt road by protruding some of the grasses?

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 01:02 PM
I wanted to practice before I tried painting on my drawn up watercolor paper (It took too many hours to get it drawn, to just blow it when I started painting); especially because this is a totally different pallette than I have ever used, I am totally a beginner at the value masses and I am just beginning to use watercolors. I used a 6x9 cheap piece of paper and got the path sketched in quickly and just started painting.....funny thing was it was very freeing because I didn't care if I messed it up! I just played with the colors ..Ultramarine blue, transparent yellow, Indian Red, Quinacridone Gold, Quinacridone burnt orange...and tried to establish the masses as I had mapped it. I am glad I tested it out because now I have several questions and Problems that I noticed with my design and color mixing.

1. Are the trees on the right too dark? or.. Are the trees on the left not dark enough?

2. I had to lighten the middle section which is the background plane....but it does not look right. In the picture the trees on the left overlapped so I had to improvise on this section when I sshortened the Mid Dark down to 1/3. I'm not sure how to fix this??? (Picture is in Post#12 on this thread)

3. The tree trunks on the right were difficult for me color wise...to stay in the Mid-value and get them to look 3 dimensional.....what do I need???

P.S.
I used the quinacridones to replace the raw and burnt sienna because they are very transparent. I also had burnt umber on the pallet but never used it....I was afraid of going too dark.

This was just a quick play but it did teach me a lot; it was nice not worring about the final product. Thanks for all your help!!!!

For some odd reason I have not read about this in a book. But It really helps not to visually mirror two sides of a painting. (I emphasize, visually mirror).
What we can do if we have trees on one side and trees on another is to change the value and/or the color. Instead od adding so many tree trunks how about reducing them and pay close attention to the spaces between them which is the negative spaces.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 01:08 PM
Thank you Johannes for all the work you do, here is my attempt at one of your photos, I pushed the colors quite a bit and used some happy colors, I hope the painting does not look to garish. I was unable to convey the look of bright sunlight bouncing of the rocks on the right side, maybe you could suggest a solution. Thanks for all the help you provide,
the 3 books I bought from your list are wonderful.
You know what? I like this painting. Again no darks brings more light out than adding darks to it. It just goes to show that chroma does the job not light dark contrasts.
A rule of thumb is:
If you have vivid colors keep the values close
If you have grayed down colors (such as a winter scene) then you can get away by introducing dark values.
What we should avoid is dark values plus strong chroma.

Visually you have cloned negative spaces in the background. I would join some evergreens into thicker ones to offset this.

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 01:08 PM
Painting is done with Nupastel on Strathmore sketch pad. C&C welcome.

Betty
I need a better photo

Lin Frye
03-21-2011, 01:13 PM
"First impression I liked it. The background is variegated and you harmonized the colors because they are repeated elsewhere. When I take a second look though you are dividing this into two parts. The water lines runs thru the middle. Either the top or the bottom half gets cropped. I would crop of some of the top because it is repetitive."


Thank you so much --- Will definitely crop the top! And thank you again for your incredible teaching!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Blessings!

Lin

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 01:13 PM
Here is another try at one of your photos Johannes . I tried to fading some of the edges even in the mid dark at the top of the trees in the center of interest.



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/20-Mar-2011/909312-P3190003.jpg

Now this is watercolors alright. This goes right along with my class last weekend. The lost and found hard-soft edges works well in here. One observation. This is a left brain thing. You grouped the evergreens to fit exactly the same width of the barn. That makes it look too deliberate.

horsthh
03-21-2011, 01:27 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/95516-falls_001a.jpgThanks Johannes for your critique, I got rid of some of the clones in the background, I am still amazed how those (clowns) appear out of nowhere. You are so right they just sneak in subconsciously. I repainted some edges after the last lesson.

raxu
03-21-2011, 01:28 PM
I like your lead in lines. Ask yourself why you put that tree branch in front? Does it contribute to the composition or hamper it? I outlined a shape in the background. Do you like it. The far distant trees are well designed but that would've been a good opportunity to do it wet on wet.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/135220-shape.jpg

oh... you mean the half-eaten pizza slice :D ...OK I don't like it, I'll change it.
And why do I have the dead tree in front? BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ON THE PHOTO :lol:
No, I thought it would add depth to this study.
The background - i DID it in wet/wet, yet felt fempted to glace it with more blue as it was dry, with implied tree tops. I know, that was not a good idea.

Thanks for your diplomatic way to show me what went wrong. Yet you did not say anything about water, I think it is not ready yet????

Probably the best idea to paint this again. This was a back side of an Arches sheet, back sides are so handy because they take lot of pressure... for some reason!

kittierue
03-21-2011, 01:28 PM
How's this?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/222668-DSC_8233.jpg

Can you slow down the visual line from the dirt road by protruding some of the grasses?

Johannes Instructor
03-21-2011, 01:39 PM
How's this?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/222668-DSC_8233.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/135220-river_path.jpg
We cannot base a line on its mathematical or scientific straightness. It is how it looks visually. Do you feel this linear movement takes the viewer from a better ride frather than rush him in?

Ruthie57
03-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Once again I'm already planning to change a few things about this. Best to put it up for critique first though.......
Soft pastels on pastelmat.

Thumbnail - decided on all mid and mid dark for this except for the area with the boat and foamy water.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/189061-IMG_81611.jpg

Greyscale
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/189061-greyscale.jpg

And the painting
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/189061-2_men_in_boat.jpg

Tresgatos
03-21-2011, 02:56 PM
Hi Robert,

Thank you for your feedback on my color studies - appreciate your comments - I like the first one better also. I did start a larger version but it isn't looking good at all :( so I will probably abandon it. I thought about the possibility of mixed media - painting over the areas I don't like with acrylic to change the color I don't like just to see what I can do with it before I toss it or use the other side. It's all a learning process. Have always had lots of problems with landscapes - it's going to take me a lot of tries before I get one that I like. Johannes is extremely good at explaining and repeating and so I think I actually now see how to look at a photo of a landscape and also when I'm outside how to break the scene into value maps. That is a huge step forward for me because I always felt so overwhelmed with all the information being presented. I'll keep trying until all the parts come together.

I managed to pick up some of the books at the library Johannes is recommending just to see if I like them before I buy them - "Your Artist Brain" and "Mastering Composition" - have to spend some time with them in order to digest the information. I still like the verbal instruction - perhaps between the two I can come up with some interesting landscapes.

Thanks again Robert - hope all is well - one of these days I'll get back to participating in the drawing from life.

Barbara

LadyMadonna
03-21-2011, 03:02 PM
I did see what you meant about the rocks . I have a difficult time with rocks and my left brain is starting to irritate me.
I went in the right side of the artwork and tried to make them more interesting.
I thought ..what the heck ..where there is water there is humidity , where there is humidity there can be mossy grass.
I hope it worked. One question I wanted to ask ..if the light is coming from the right ..would any of that right hand side which is dark have any reflected sunlight . I find it difficult to understand the shadow and light concepts.. ..thank you.

gale Prosser Shuba
03-21-2011, 03:41 PM
Johannes,

I was unable to join you on Sunday, 3-21. I have really enjoyed your classes
so far. I did this painting from a photo in the Wet Canvas library. Could you
please view it in grey scale and let me know what you think. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/315501-3-20-11_013.jpg

judyfilarecki
03-21-2011, 04:47 PM
Here is my acrylic painting of the waterfalls. I identified abstract shapes and mapped values first.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/190342-waterfallmaps.jpg

Once I started painting the rocks, an unexpected natural bridge appeared at the top of the right branch of the falls. I couldn't resist making it the source of the falls. I tried to apply what I learned yesterday about lost and found lines.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/190342-waterfallfinal.jpg

I'm sure there are things that could be improved and and comments would be welcome.

Judy

Irmaluz
03-21-2011, 08:43 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/171233-valuepastel.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/171233-last.jpg Hi Johannes,
First time I'm sending homework for your critique. Not sure if I've uploaded correctly. One is b/w value and the other pastel on suede paper. I think I covered most of what you discussed at class, but for some reason I feel there is something(s) I missed.
Thank you so much for your time and patience...your the greatest!
irmaluz

raxu
03-22-2011, 04:00 AM
Hi again,

Johannes, I noticed my previous waterfall watercolor could not be rescued. I believe I have a tendency to use too many different colors in one painting. So, now I just made a drawing, to see if the values work, if the lines work, if the edges work...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0665m.jpg

This is made with a 2B pencil on a small nature white sketch block. Actually it's shown here in real size now.

My left brain still tries to say rocks are rounded - because they ARE so in Finland, where the Ice Ages modified most of the granite rocks so they lost their edges! I had hard time to give them some edges... What do I do if I want to paint some Finnish rocks :confused:

Would appreciate your observations again - thank you!

Rosemarie
03-22-2011, 04:37 AM
Hi Johannes, it seems I posted in the wrong thread. Could you please throw an eye on post # 60 in the thread http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13688370

I sure need some advise. I got attracted by the reds and greens and could not handle it when painting. I appreciate you valuable advise and I am glued to the screen when you are spilling out your knowledge. Thanks!:cat:

N.Ramchandran
03-22-2011, 05:43 AM
Hi Johannes
I Refer to my Post No. 132 on Page 9. I had requested your critique on my Homework.
I am self taught but have not been able to do a reasonable job with water color. You classes have beeen most illuminating, especially the one on Soft and Lost & found edges.
Before I do another painting I wanted to know the mistakes in my first painting.

Once again many thanks for your classes and the zeal with which you conduct them.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:06 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/171233-last.jpg Hi Johannes,
First time I'm sending homework for your critique. Not sure if I've uploaded correctly. One is b/w value and the other pastel on suede paper. I think I covered most of what you discussed at class, but for some reason I feel there is something(s) I missed.
Thank you so much for your time and patience...your the greatest!
irmaluz
I can see application of technique. I know why you feel something is missing.
When we have an area that is about the size of a business card and there is no value shift or color shift that area seems to be void and lacking something. I call them dead spots. The area I am talking about is the water. What you can do is suggest some foam against the rocks and vary the value.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:15 AM
Here is my acrylic painting of the waterfalls. I identified abstract shapes and mapped values first.

Once I started painting the rocks, an unexpected natural bridge appeared at the top of the right branch of the falls. I couldn't resist making it the source of the falls. I tried to apply what I learned yesterday about lost and found lines.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/190342-waterfallfinal.jpg

I'm sure there are things that could be improved and and comments would be welcome.

Judy
According to your value plan the tree at the right would be a mid value. Nice foam! Remember these principles.
1. Create an abstract shape.
2. This abstract shape should have variegation of colors

You have lots of mini indentations in the rocks. This is the intellectual brain telling you you need lots of detail. All we need is just a few indentations.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:18 AM
Hi again,

Johannes, I noticed my previous waterfall watercolor could not be rescued. I believe I have a tendency to use too many different colors in one painting. So, now I just made a drawing, to see if the values work, if the lines work, if the edges work...



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0665m.jpg

This is made with a 2B pencil on a small nature white sketch block. Actually it's shown here in real size now.

My left brain still tries to say rocks are rounded - because they ARE so in Finland, where the Ice Ages modified most of the granite rocks so they lost their edges! I had hard time to give them some edges... What do I do if I want to paint some Finnish rocks :confused:

Would appreciate your observations again - thank you!
Watch out for that dome shape near the top. It takes away melody. Do not use the justification for an unpleasant shape because that's the way it is over there and much less because that's the way it is in the photo. We have to improve on nature by designing abstract shapes. Rocks need to be angular in paintings. Nature has an advantage over us. Its paintings are miles long. Mother nature paints on canvases the size of several football fields. But when we reduce all this to a mere small 2D surface we are creating and artificial scene. In those few square inches we have to create the most impact possible and try to compete with nature. Somewhat like a movie has to make you feel many years or days go by in a mere 90 minutes. I cannot emphasize this too much.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:26 AM
Johannes,

I was unable to join you on Sunday, 3-21. I have really enjoyed your classes
so far. I did this painting from a photo in the Wet Canvas library. Could you
please view it in grey scale and let me know what you think. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/315501-3-20-11_013.jpg
I feel the value (judging on the photo) in the shadow side of that cliff in the middle is in a value 8. In my book too dark.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:29 AM
Once again I'm already planning to change a few things about this. Best to put it up for critique first though.......
Soft pastels on pastelmat.

Thumbnail - decided on all mid and mid dark for this except for the area with the boat and foamy water.


Greyscale


And the painting
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/189061-2_men_in_boat.jpg I can't believe you guys figured out this value planning so well and can adhere to it. It took me much longer to get it. This painting is beautiful.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:32 AM
oh... you mean the half-eaten pizza slice :D ...OK I don't like it, I'll change it.
And why do I have the dead tree in front? BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ON THE PHOTO :lol:
No, I thought it would add depth to this study.
The background - i DID it in wet/wet, yet felt fempted to glace it with more blue as it was dry, with implied tree tops. I know, that was not a good idea.

Thanks for your diplomatic way to show me what went wrong. Yet you did not say anything about water, I think it is not ready yet????

Probably the best idea to paint this again. This was a back side of an Arches sheet, back sides are so handy because they take lot of pressure... for some reason!

Ok good you answered the why! So leave it. Creating depth is a good reason to put something in.

Ruthie57
03-22-2011, 08:52 AM
I can't believe you guys figured out this value planning so well and can adhere to it. It took me much longer to get it. This painting is beautiful.

Wow! Thanks Johannes :wave: I have actually done a little tweaking today because, to me, some of the trees seemed flat. But I'm glad to know I'm getting it about the value masses :)
Most of it is thanks to you you know :thumbsup:

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 09:09 AM
oh... you mean the half-eaten pizza slice :D ...OK I don't like it, I'll change it.
And why do I have the dead tree in front? BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ON THE PHOTO :lol:
No, I thought it would add depth to this study.
The background - i DID it in wet/wet, yet felt fempted to glace it with more blue as it was dry, with implied tree tops. I know, that was not a good idea.

Thanks for your diplomatic way to show me what went wrong. Yet you did not say anything about water, I think it is not ready yet????

Probably the best idea to paint this again. This was a back side of an Arches sheet, back sides are so handy because they take lot of pressure... for some reason!

I don't think something goes "wrong" in a painting. It just doesn't go as beautiful as we want it to be. I will share a few tips. When we place equal weight of branches on both sides of a dead tree it looks akward. By removing these branches and allowing them to lean in more, these branches serve as pointers. I feel your waterfall was incomplete. Many artist place hints of rock showing through waterfalls so they don't seem like they were posted on from another painting. Also remeber when I taught the "How to make a painting appear more 3 D", I mentioned that we try to avoid trees from lining up but bring some forward like chess pieces once the game has started. Our intellectual brain will line things up like pawns on a chess board when the game has not started yet. I modifed that dome shape to make the line more melodic.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/135220-Untitled-7.jpg


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/135220-Running_Eagle_Falls.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 09:34 AM
I did see what you meant about the rocks . I have a difficult time with rocks and my left brain is starting to irritate me.
I went in the right side of the artwork and tried to make them more interesting.
I thought ..what the heck ..where there is water there is humidity , where there is humidity there can be mossy grass.
I hope it worked. One question I wanted to ask ..if the light is coming from the right ..would any of that right hand side which is dark have any reflected sunlight . I find it difficult to understand the shadow and light concepts.. ..thank you.

It's good now. Remember when you a problem with shapes and you feel your intellectual brain wants to direct the activity, reverse your thinking and CARVE into the shape with the negative space.

raxu
03-22-2011, 09:37 AM
Thank you Johannes - yes, I really KNOW everything you said, yet putting that in practise is another thing... I'll blaim my left brain half!

Wow, how beautiful my study looks now! Thank you again - I-ll try to cope with this - once more. Finns are known not to give up... Your support surely is helpful.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 09:44 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Mar-2011/135220-river_path.jpg
We cannot base a line on its mathematical or scientific straightness. It is how it looks visually. Do you feel this linear movement takes the viewer from a better ride frather than rush him in?

Oops just noticed the triangle in the middle (land meeting water) as I was going thru the thread.

LadyMadonna
03-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Got it !

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 10:01 AM
Thank you Johannes - yes, I really KNOW everything you said, yet putting that in practise is another thing... I'll blaim my left brain half!

Wow, how beautiful my study looks now! Thank you again - I-ll try to cope with this - once more. Finns are known not to give up... Your support surely is helpful.
yeah, it will take insisting and repition until it becomes second nature.

hungariancontessa
03-22-2011, 01:58 PM
Hi Johannes,
here are some more homework studies in pastel. I guess, I got off the hook from this weeks homework, since I mostly work in pastel, and oils.
I had a tough time with the photo with the buildings, I can see problems with the composition;I would also like to get better at painting structures! I cringe when I look at these, I guess you just have to keep at it to get better.

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, it has been very helpful to me!
Patricia-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/145129-trees_by_the_stream_small.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/145129-reference7.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/145129-cottage_by_the_lake_small.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/145129-ref1.jpg

sherrysherman
03-22-2011, 07:32 PM
Since I missed about all of the ustream video, I though the homework was just working with edges on trees - didn't realize it was one tree at a time, so I just chose one of your photos with a lot of trees and tried to vary their edges. :)

NO, the tree and shadows on the right are NOT Value 8! Wasn't sure how to photoshop it lighter without lightening the rest, or reducing the contrast overall too much. I need a good camera.

Now that I see what others are doing on the edges homework, I may also try to do a page with single trees. Meanwhile, here's this. (Pastel on Canson, 12x16)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/616112-jv_river_scene_3-rev-800.jpg

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:25 PM
Thta is yummySince I missed about all of the ustream video, I though the homework was just working with edges on trees - didn't realize it was one tree at a time, so I just chose one of your photos with a lot of trees and tried to vary their edges. :)

NO, the tree and shadows on the right are NOT Value 8! Wasn't sure how to photoshop it lighter without lightening the rest, or reducing the contrast overall too much. I need a good camera.

Now that I see what others are doing on the edges homework, I may also try to do a page with single trees. Meanwhile, here's this. (Pastel on Canson, 12x16)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/616112-jv_river_scene_3-rev-800.jpg Now that is yummy. Gosh Sherry every painting you submit just gets better. I would reduce that bush in the middle so the eye could can continue its journey to the back. But the painting is so good that it overrides that detail. Your value structure is crazily dead on.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Hi Johannes,
here are some more homework studies in pastel. I guess, I got off the hook from this weeks homework, since I mostly work in pastel, and oils.
I had a tough time with the photo with the buildings, I can see problems with the composition;I would also like to get better at painting structures! I cringe when I look at these, I guess you just have to keep at it to get better.

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, it has been very helpful to me!
Patricia-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/145129-trees_by_the_stream_small.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/145129-cottage_by_the_lake_small.jpg
Check the triangular protrusions. Values look good. Your painting is definitely poetical.

sherrysherman
03-22-2011, 08:33 PM
Thta is yummy Now that is yummy. Gosh Sherry every painting you submit just gets better. I would reduce that bush in the middle so the eye could can continue its journey to the back. But the painting is so good that it overrides that detail.
Thank you so much, Johannes. I'd work on it some more, but I have to go follow Charlie Sheen on Twitter. :D (kidding, Johannes!)

Yes, I see what you mean about that bush. I think I'd like it better smaller. (It also bothered me so close to the center.) The paper's Canson, so the tooth is pretty full. BUT I can just brush some off. :) It's still on the easel with the pastels I used still out, so that's good.

One thing I'm finding - and this is good - is that I am spending LOTS more time after the painting is "done" just looking all over it for bad shapes, clones, stacking, values that draw my attention to wrong areas, etc. Just making tweaks to fix things, add a little here, lighten something there, soften this, sharpen that. It's really something, having a better understanding of what enhances and what detracts. Thank you again for all you do.

Johannes Instructor
03-22-2011, 08:53 PM
Thank you so much, Johannes. I'd work on it some more, but I have to go follow Charlie Sheen on Twitter. :D (kidding, Johannes!)

Yes, I see what you mean about that bush. I think I'd like it better smaller. (It also bothered me so close to the center.) The paper's Canson, so the tooth is pretty full. BUT I can just brush some off. :) It's still on the easel with the pastels I used still out, so that's good.

One thing I'm finding - and this is good - is that I am spending LOTS more time after the painting is "done" just looking all over it for bad shapes, clones, stacking, values that draw my attention to wrong areas, etc. Just making tweaks to fix things, add a little here, lighten something there, soften this, sharpen that. It's really something, having a better understanding of what enhances and what detracts. Thank you again for all you do.
Nothing stands out here except correctness.

karan55
03-22-2011, 09:14 PM
Since I missed about all of the ustream video, I though the homework was just working with edges on trees - didn't realize it was one tree at a time, so I just chose one of your photos with a lot of trees and tried to vary their edges. :)

NO, the tree and shadows on the right are NOT Value 8! Wasn't sure how to photoshop it lighter without lightening the rest, or reducing the contrast overall too much. I need a good camera.

Now that I see what others are doing on the edges homework, I may also try to do a page with single trees. Meanwhile, here's this. (Pastel on Canson, 12x16)


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/616112-jv_river_scene_3-rev-800.jpg


WOW! I saw this and just got lost in it. You and Charlie are doing such beautiful work with pastels. You both have really sparked my interest in pastels. I saw Charlie's horse over in the WC pastels section today and it blew me away! I really enjoy seeing what others are doing with all the information and knowledge that Johannes has shared with us.

hungariancontessa
03-22-2011, 09:41 PM
Check the triangular protrusions. Values look good. Your painting is definitely poetical.

I saw that, Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I guess, I am overcompensating, trying not to make too many rounded curves, and started making points! Thank you for the compliment about poetical painting!


Thank you again,
Patricia

sherrysherman
03-22-2011, 09:45 PM
Nothing stands out here except correctness.
LOL -- Well, I spent a looonnng time looking at it all over, from various distances, with a mirror, upside down, and finding things to "correct," so it means a lot to me that you aren't seeing something obvious that I missed. :)

PMFooks
03-22-2011, 10:17 PM
Hi Johannes,
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/258321-Homework_5_crop.jpg
I flipped the wharf building pic horizontally and cropped and painted this. I kept finding myself cloning, making straight line and triangles and wanting to paint using 6, 7 and 8 values. What changes can I make to this to produce a melody.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/258321-My_Art_002.JPG
Pete

Laura2011
03-23-2011, 05:26 AM
Here is my homework done in dry pastels. Thank you for your comments.

Colorix
03-23-2011, 07:29 AM
Moose Falls ref.

Sloppy value map, and finished sketch in bw:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2011/117343-J-MF-basic-VP.jpg http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2011/117343-J-MF-bw.jpg

Study/colour sketch of the Moose Falls -- not a full painting.
Small= A4 (8x12")
Assorted pastels on Fisher 400 (similar to Uart):

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2011/117343-J-Moose-Falls-Herczfeld.jpg

I still have problems with melodic lines, especially on this small scale. First waterfall I ever tried. If I do a real painting, it'd be much bigger.

Colorix
03-23-2011, 07:33 AM
Sherry, oh, this is so beautiful! Doesnt look like any values 8 on my screen, but when you want to fix one area in photoshop, you can isolate the area by marking it, and then anything you do will happen only within the marking.



NO, the tree and shadows on the right are NOT Value 8! Wasn't sure how to photoshop it lighter without lightening the rest, or reducing the contrast overall too much. I need a good camera.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Mar-2011/616112-jv_river_scene_3-rev-800.jpg

Colorix
03-23-2011, 07:39 AM
WOW! I saw this and just got lost in it. You and Charlie are doing such beautiful work with pastels. You both have really sparked my interest in pastels. I saw Charlie's horse over in the WC pastels section today and it blew me away! I really enjoy seeing what others are doing with all the information and knowledge that Johannes has shared with us.

Thank you! Pastels are such a wonderful medium (with its drawbacks, like any medium), and it has been too underrated for too long. Most of today's pastel artists, like Sherry and I, use the sticks to *paint* pictures, but of course pastel is also a drawing medium, so it is very versatile. What most love is the immediacy of the medium. (Fine speak for "finger painting"... :lol: )

raxu
03-23-2011, 09:52 AM
Here once more the waterfall in watercolor... I painted in several layers and lost the freshness, I guess

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2011/171274-m_IMG_0666autolevelrajttu.jpg

Johannes, funny I notice the no-nos only by posting - I can see there are cloned negative shapes at the tree line :o

What else would you point out?
Thanks again for your support!

sherrysherman
03-23-2011, 10:12 AM
Sherry, oh, this is so beautiful! Doesnt look like any values 8 on my screen, but when you want to fix one area in photoshop, you can isolate the area by marking it, and then anything you do will happen only within the marking.
Thank you, Charlie. I tried to find your horse picture in the Pastel Forum, but wasn't successful.

You mean by "Selecting" that area? I tried to select that tree, using the Magic Wand tool multiple times in various spots, then the Lasso, but there are so many variations in color and value, it was never a great selection. I tried using, very lightly, the dodge tool on the selectin, but it left darker edges - instead of softer edges! Then I tried a few other adjustments, but too much overall lightening or reducing contrast messed up the other trees. I KIND of know what I'm doing on photoshop, but I didn't want to spend more hours on that than on the painting!

Plus it takes forever to get a decent photo - the best color is actually when I use the flash. For some reason, regardless of what light I use or "white light adjustment," without flash it often comes out with some kind of color cast, that I can't quite correct in photoshop. It's a cute little point-and-shoot camera - very handy to carry around, I can even drop it without damage, but the available adjustments aren't great.

Well, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools, right?

sherrysherman
03-23-2011, 10:19 AM
Johannes, funny I notice the no-nos only by posting.

LOL! Isn't that funny?? Me too! I mean, I notice some by staring enough and by using a mirror, but really, it seems like it's the photo that really makes it stand out! And like you, sometimes only AFTER I post! More than once, I've used "Preview Post," looked at it and rushed downstairs to fix something, take a new photo, crop the photo, do color/value adjustments so it actually looks like the painting, reduce the size, and upload it instead of the one with the "mistake."

Then I do a Preview Post and start the game again. :rolleyes: I only finally submit when I don't see a problem in the photo on the screen. It's a process.

Dougwas
03-23-2011, 10:24 AM
Sherry- Here is a link to Charlie's Painting. Well worth a look. http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=925529

Doug

sherrysherman
03-23-2011, 10:35 AM
Sherry- Here is a link to Charlie's Painting. Well worth a look. http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=925529

Doug
Thank you so much, Doug!!

charlie, this is wonderful. The title and story line with it touched me deeply. (My own partner of 17 years, Tom, was found to have a malignant brain tumor last fall. Surgery, radiation and lots of chemo ever since. His last MRI wasn't good, but we are hopeful with his current new treatment, that the next MRI in a week will show him also to be "through the storm." I will think of your painting.)

elisamaria
03-23-2011, 11:16 AM
By planning your masses you can separate the big tree in front from the trees in the background if the plane change is at a different value. So either make the trees in the background mid value and the big tree on the right a mid dark or the other way around.

Thank you for your help. Did some changes. I feel more satisfied now and in my opinion the 3D effect is not too bad. What does my teacher say?
Elisabeth
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2011/735472-P1030966.JPG

Colorix
03-23-2011, 11:49 AM
Charlie in green responds to Sherry in black:

You mean by "Selecting" that area? I tried to select that tree, using the Magic Wand tool multiple times in various spots, then the Lasso, but there are so many variations in color and value, it was never a great selection.

Sherry, my PSE is in Swedish, so I never name things right in English. I mean the one that looks like the Magic Wand (is next to it on my toolbar...), and it can be 'brushed on' and has a + and a - version. Allows you to follow contours and puts a sinous blinking line around whatever you 'highlight' with it. (So frustrating to not know the true name.) I find it very handy, as it works better than the magic wand for trees and anything with many values. You can even soften the outline (as you can with Magic Wand).


I KIND of know what I'm doing on photoshop, but I didn't want to spend more hours on that than on the painting!

LOL! I know the feeling...

Plus it takes forever to get a decent photo - the best color is actually when I use the flash.

Daylight and flash is good.

For some reason, regardless of what light I use or "white light adjustment," without flash it often comes out with some kind of color cast, that I can't quite correct in photoshop.

There's a handy little tool under Colour Adjustments, 'remove colour bias' or something similar. Click on a white, grey, or black area, and it sometimes works (and sometimes there are interesting surprises). I put my value-finder next to the painting, to get this neutral white/grey/black.

It's a cute little point-and-shoot camera - very handy to carry around, I can even drop it without damage, but the available adjustments aren't great.

And a small sensor? I got meself a Canon Rebel, and wow, what a difference!

Pastels are hard to photograph. No glare problem, thankfully, but different brands reflect light differently (also some colours within brands differ).

Well, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools, right?

Well, I'd like to qualify that saying: if the tools are state of the art (or at least adequate), then there's no excuse. But a simple point-n-shoot camera?... I'd blame the tool!

Thank you for the words on my horse! May your partner come through his ordeal cured. And may you have whatever support and strenght you need, whatever happens -- it is an ordeal to be in your position too.

sherrysherman
03-23-2011, 12:12 PM
Charlie in green; Sherry in black:

Sherry, my PSE is in Swedish, so I never name things right in English. I mean the one that looks like the Magic Wand (is next to it on my toolbar...), and it can be 'brushed on' and has a + and a - version. Allows you to follow contours and puts a sinous blinking line around whatever you 'highlight' with it. (So frustrating to not know the true name.) I find it very handy, as it works better than the magic wand for trees and anything with many values. You can even soften the outline (as you can with Magic Wand).

Oh, maybe it's the Magic Selection Brush! I've actually never used that (I learned PSE before it existed, so haven't tried everything). I'll have to try it, see if that's it and if it works better.

There's a handy little tool under Colour Adjustments, 'remove colour bias' or something similar. Click on a white, grey, or black area, and it sometimes works (and sometimes there are interesting surprises). I put my value-finder next to the painting, to get this neutral white/grey/black.

I've tried the remove color bias. I haven't been successful - it's hard to find neutral spots in the painting. Using the value finder would help with that. Good idea. I'll try that... but I don't always know in advance which photos will have a bad bias.

Pastels are hard to photograph. No glare problem, thankfully, but different brands reflect light differently (also some colours within brands differ).

I wondered about that!! When I photographed this last one, an area where I SWEAR I put a mid-value in looked too light! I checked the photo and the painting - big difference. But much of the painting is Rembrandts, then the tooth got full, so for some of the top stuff I used Terry Ludwigs. That would explain it.

Well, I'd like to qualify that saying: if the tools are state of the art (or at least adequate), then there's no excuse. But a simple point-n-shoot camera?... I'd blame the tool![/QUOTE]

Okay, I'll continue to blame the camera. :) (BUT I can also take photos underwater with it. How cool is that?)

Colorix
03-23-2011, 12:33 PM
Sherry in Black
Charlie comments in red

Oh, maybe it's the Magic Selection Brush! I've actually never used that (I learned PSE before it existed, so haven't tried everything). I'll have to try it, see if that's it and if it works better.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Mar-2011/117343-PSE_Tool.JPG

I have version 6 (I think they are up to 9 now).

1. the icon of the tool (right click it, it comes in two versions, one is 'half-magic' and 'glues' the marking to an edge, but you can move it).

2. + makes the tool expand, and - lets you nudge the line back into the area.

3. Button for adjusting the marking. Expand/contract, diffuse edges, etc. It opens a dialogue window.

.... But much of the painting is Rembrandts, then the tooth got full, so for some of the top stuff I used Terry Ludwigs. That would explain it.

Oh yes it does. Rembs are a bit transparent (at least, less covering), while Ludwigs are very opaque and highly reflective. The supersofties do that.


Okay, I'll continue to blame the camera. :) (BUT I can also take photos underwater with it. How cool is that?)

Very cool!