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View Full Version : Hue vs. True colour


Mrsjones
02-13-2011, 04:06 PM
Would there be a noticeable difference between say Cobalt Blue Hue and a true Cobalt Blue made of cobalt aluminium oxide... besides the price?

Yorky
02-13-2011, 05:34 PM
Check out the Handprint Blue pigments section (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterb.html) for the differing properties.

The tradition wisdom is that "hues" are dye based colours made to match as closely the genuine pigments.

Doug

Mayberry
02-13-2011, 08:58 PM
W&N Cotman Cobalt Blue Hue is made from Ultramarine Blue and Lithopone (a transparent white). Holbein Colbalt Blue Hue is made from Ultramarine Blue and Phthalo Blue. Schmincke Cobalt Blue Tone is made from Ultramarine Blue and Zinc White. (I got this info from the Dick Blick website.)

I haven't tried a Cobalt Blue Hue before, but it looks like the properties of the paint will be a bit different. For example, the Holbein one will have staining characteristics from having Phthalo Blue in it. Also, true Cobalt Blue pigment is semi-transparent while Ultramarine Blue and Phthalo Blue are transparent. I'm not sure if the white pigments or any unlabeled additives affect the transparency of the hue colors. As I say, I haven't tried the hue, so I can't say if the differences are very noticable.

Mrsjones
02-13-2011, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the info! I have a tube of both the W&N Cobalt Blue and the Cotman Cobalt Blue Hue, and so far the color is the same, but i guess how they behave on the paper will be different. Might not be able to move the hue around as much as the actual pigment! Will have to experiment more!

Cheers!

Mrsjones
02-13-2011, 11:19 PM
Wow, Doug! What a great reference link! Will have to Bookmark that! Thanks!

Barbara WC
02-14-2011, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the info! I have a tube of both the W&N Cobalt Blue and the Cotman Cobalt Blue Hue, and so far the color is the same, but i guess how they behave on the paper will be different. Might not be able to move the hue around as much as the actual pigment! Will have to experiment more!

Cheers!

I haven't used the Cotman Cobalt Blue hue, but my experience is that generally the artist grade hue paints are much closer to the "real" pigments than the student brands (Cotman is not an artist grade paint). I've found Daniel Smith to make some convincing substituions (like their Cadmium hues), but don't think they have a Cobalt hue paint.

Barbara

Barbara WC
02-14-2011, 01:05 AM
W&N Cotman Cobalt Blue Hue is made from Ultramarine Blue and Lithopone (a transparent white). Holbein Colbalt Blue Hue is made from Ultramarine Blue and Phthalo Blue. Schmincke Cobalt Blue Tone is made from Ultramarine Blue and Zinc White. (I got this info from the Dick Blick website.)

I haven't tried a Cobalt Blue Hue before, but it looks like the properties of the paint will be a bit different. For example, the Holbein one will have staining characteristics from having Phthalo Blue in it. Also, true Cobalt Blue pigment is semi-transparent while Ultramarine Blue and Phthalo Blue are transparent. I'm not sure if the white pigments or any unlabeled additives affect the transparency of the hue colors. As I say, I haven't tried the hue, so I can't say if the differences are very noticable.

Pigment properties, such as transparency and granulation, can be changed with varying degrees of milling, particle size and binders.

One example is Daniel Smith Manganese Blue hue- it is made with PB15, Phthalo blue, which as Phthalo blue paint, is heavily staining and non granulating. However, Daniel Smith (and Winsor and Newton for this one) have been able to create a paint using the same pigment, PB15 which is very easy to lift (unlike Phthalo blue paint) and which granulates well. Unfortunately, I've never been able to try the original Manganese blue since it no longer readily available, so I cannot from experience know how close the color is to the original.

I think the manufacturers of artist grade hue paints try to get not only close to the color of the original pigment, but also try to match the different qualities of opacity, granulation, etc. Some hue replacements are more successful than others, but luckily in the past few years, more quailty hue paints with characteristics similar to the pigment they are trying to replace have come on the market.

If you are unhappy with the Cotman Cobalt hue, you might look at Cobalt hues in the artist grade paint lines, they may be closer to genuine Cobalt Blue in transparency, staining and granulation.

Barbara

Yorky
02-14-2011, 05:11 AM
For pigment details check out the Pigment Database.
(http://www.artiscreation.com/blue.html)
Doug

oCDs01-711
02-14-2011, 08:35 AM
Thanks Yorky. I can't wait to have the time to dig into this gold mine. :thumbsup:

virgil carter
02-14-2011, 12:18 PM
MrsJ: I think the folks above have put you on the right track. The succinct answer to your question of "is there a difference", I believe, is: yes, of course.

Actually, there is a difference in many paints of the exact same pigments from different manufacturers, due to milling, additives and proprietary chemistry. So, for example, Cobalt Blue from one manufacturer may be visibily different from that of another manufacture, in many cases, for many colors.

Thus, it is not unexpected that "hues" have slightly different color characteristicw than "true" colors. "Hues" are created when the basic pigment is either no longer available, or has become prohibitively expensive due to supply and demand (Quin Gold, for example).

Seems that the auto industry is a big influence on available paint colors; where there is high demand in the auto industry, the pigments tend to also be common in the paint industry.

At the end of the day, most of us in the painting world wind up experimenting and settling on our our personal preferences for each color, manufacturer by manufacturer.

Sling paint,
Virgil