"Suede" paper versus "Velour" paper, what is the difference please?

[derek123]

Hi, I am trying to do dog portraits in pastel, and I achieved mediocre detail results on velour paper. I see on the internet these artists using "suede" paper. They use "Suede pastel paper" and achieve much much more detail and realism in their dog portraits than me. In order to get detail I had to use Canson Mis Tientes paper, and then for long haired I had to settle on less detail softer Velour paper. Is "velour" the same as "suede" paper please?

[Isaac M.M.]

Hi
As far as I know, they are similar or the same: suede, velvet or velour; I've found also the terms velouté (french) and carta vellutata (italian), all referring to the velvet texture; just not to be confused with vellum which is a high quality parchment (made of calf skin) and with quite a different texture.

[DAK723]

Suede and velour are not the same, but are very similar. Both are soft surfaces, so it can be difficult to achieve detail compared to a paper like the Canson. Suede is actually not a specialty paper - it is suede mat board. You might be able to get some some scraps or samples from a framing shop to test out.

Lots of artists dislike velour and suede because of thie difficulty in creating details, so you are not alone. Luckily, there are many different surfaces for pastels, including sanded papers, so most artists eventually find the ones that work best for them.

Don

[RainySea]

There are different types of velour paper like Hahnemühle and some others I think. Then there is colorfix suede paper which is new. Then there is suede mat board which is really for framing but some artist use it for pastels. Lesley Harrison paints animals on velour and has a great book out that might help to answer some of your questions too.

[derek123]

Great thanks! I will try out your ideas. You all know a lot. I also looked at a poll and saw that most people on the forums for pastel prefer

clairefontaine-pastelmat-card

can one achieve fine hair detail for dogs on this kind of card please? If I can I will be set! thank you!:) I would like to do a photorealistic dog at about the size of 11x14" as I have seen pastel artists using pastel pencils and pastels to do dog portraits that look REAL on that size, even as small as 8x10. On velour I could not achieve that kind of detail, I have not tried suede.

[johndill01]

Just thought that I would post this disclaimer from the Dakota web site on the new Colourfix Suede paper. This paper is not in the same class as Velour or Suede papers. I should also add that I have not as yet tried the paper, just trying to keep things in perspective.

I was enthused, as were numerous others, when this paper was first announced, as I occasionally use velour or suede paper for paintings, When I found this disclaimer, it was a disappointment to say the least.

"*SUEDE IS USED AS A DESCRIPTIVE TERM FOR THE SMOOTHNESS OF THIS PAPER. IT SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH A SUEDE FABRIC OR SUEDE BOARD SURFACE."

John

[RainySea]

Lesley Harrison has indicated on her blog she gets her velour from New York Central Supply but does not indicate what brand, etc. that it is.

[allydoodle]

I don't work on suede or velour paper, so I cannot comment on them. I can, however, comment on what I do use to paint animals on.

I find Wallis sandpaper to be one of the most versatile of surfaces. I can get as much detail as I want with it, and it is very forgiving. I tend not to go for photorealism, more of a 'realistic painting' I guess, when it comes to animals. I put in some detail pretty tight, yet not necessarily every hair. Everybody works differently, I guess you have to try a few different surfaces to see if you can get the results you want, everybody's expectations are different. Uart makes sandpaper that comes in different grits, the higher the number the smoother the sandpaper. Their 400 grit is similar to Wallis paper, anything higher will be smoother. I'm currently working on two dogs using Wallis (the thread is called Emma and Bubba WIP, in the Pastel Gallery if you want to see the look I'm getting with Wallis paper), and I am happy with the results. I tend not to like the smoother grits of sandpaper as much as the rougher 400 grit, just a personal preference. You should probably try a sampler of different papers, I think Dakota Art offers it here (http://www.dakotapastels.com/pages/paper-dakota-samplers.aspx). Hope this helps a bit.

[derek123]

great thank you.

[bdank]

I suggest that you try either clairefontaine Pastelmat or Senniler La carte. Pastelmat is my favorite paper and I work tight with lots of detail. I haven't done any animal portraits but I do have great success with human hair and beards on pastelmat. I use mostly semi-hard, medium pastels, plus pastel pencils.

[granddad]

I personnally love Velour paper for animals. I love the way you can get the fur to look like fur. Do a search for Sticky Wombat in the pastel forum and you will see she does Beautiful detailed works on Velour. She has a WIP also that was very helpful to me. james

[KariTirrell]

I have not used that new suede paper, so I can't comment on that. I do use suede matboard and velour paper for animals. Both are good, but different. Suede matboard takes a lot more pastel, and I can work out my drawing on it. With velour paper, I have to transfer the drawing because the tooth will fill up too quickly otherwise. Both work best with a medium soft pastel, IMO.

I don't like sanded papers or Pastelmat for animals, but that's just personal preference. I usually use suede matboard, but velour would be my second choice.

If you like, you can go to my blog and type each paper in the search box, and then you can compare my results with the papers.

Bottom line is, we're all different. You'll have to try the papers and see what works best for you.

Good luck!

[robertsloan2]

Pastelmat gives a lot of detail, as much as vellum paper. I'd use it for fine detail pen drawing in a mixed media painting, that's how smooth it is. Super fine texture but it holds pastel hard, like painting on the sticky side of glue.

Suede board is a lot like velour board, so close that I think of it in the same category. A friend sent me two pieces and I like it but would work larger on it than on other surfaces. Animals tend to look good on it because of the softness, even if there's less detail it gives them a very attractive look.

Dakota has some paper samplers with all the sanded papers and all the not sanded papers. I can't remember which one velour is in but there is a velour sample in one of the paper samplers. Those are a good way to find out which ones you like best for your techniques with your supplies.

[the drover's dog]

Bound to be confusion when there are two completely different pastel surfaces both bearing the name "Suede". Have never used the soft Suede board as it is not available in this country.

The Colourfix Suede is really a sanded, waterproof surface but the grade of grit is much much finer and denser than their ordinary Colourfix sanded paper. They developed it for use with Pan Pastels, and coloured and pastel pencils. Worth asking Dakota to include some in a pastel sampler you can buy from them, which is the best way for you to find a paper that suits your purpose.

Dale

[bdank]

Colourfix Suede (not to be mistaken for regular suede) is a lot like pastelmat, except (for me) it didn't grab the pastel quite as well. I love the way pastelmat takes the pastel. It works like a dream for me, but this could have a lot to do with the pastels that I use and the way that I apply them.

[derek123]

I suggest that you try either clairefontaine Pastelmat or Senniler La carte. Pastelmat is my favorite paper and I work tight with lots of detail. I haven't done any animal portraits but I do have great success with human hair and beards on pastelmat. I use mostly semi-hard, medium pastels, plus pastel pencils.
I visited your site and it is very professional and you have great talent. Especially on that Aborigine looking guy in blue. WOW. That is some serious face texture not sure how you pulled that one off. But great art, I really want to try Pastelmat now. Do you use any special tools? What brands of pastels or pencils are you using please?

[tvandeb]

I've used suede quite a bit, mostly in CP drawings a few times in pastel. Suede to me is closer to pastelmat then velour. Velour has more of a velvet touch to it then the suede. I use velour mainly now for still lifes and glass studies. The pastel mat for anything as well as the suede.
I've just ventured into sanded paper, and u-art 600 800 grid have a velvet touch even though its sanded, like pastelmat and you can really pile on the layers. I hope that helps.:)

[bdank]

I visited your site and it is very professional and you have great talent. Especially on that Aborigine looking guy in blue. WOW. That is some serious face texture not sure how you pulled that one off. But great art, I really want to try Pastelmat now. Do you use any special tools? What brands of pastels or pencils are you using please?

Thanks! I created the textures by using pastel pencils for the top layers and using a lot of strokes. I don't really use any tools other than my finger for blending and sometimes I will use a blending stump if I need to blend in a very tight area. You won't be able to get a lot of texture with pastelmat as some people do with sanded papers. Pastelmat is very smooth, so for textures you have to get creative as I did with the pastel pencils. I like pastelmat because I can get sharp edges and tight detail. I've tried sanded paper and I have trouble blending and detailing on it. Although, I've seen people here pull it off. I'm just not sure how they do it.

For pastels, I use the semi-hard (polycromos, mungyo semi-hard, creata color) and medium-hard ones (Rembrandt, Girault) and pencils. No one certain brand though. I only occasionally use soft pastels (schmincke) to put in some final highlights.