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icefan13
09-13-2000, 10:56 AM
I'm just getting back into oil painting after a looong time away. I always used to use Windsor-Newton, but the salesperson at my local art store said that they are not so hot.

Which PROFESSIONAL grade (lightfast) paints do you all prefer and why? Thanks!!!

Degas5
09-13-2000, 06:14 PM
Alot of people don't like Winsor & Newton because they keep on raising their prices and the quality remains the same, but I still think they're a fine Artists' oil-not the best, but next in line to Old Holland, Blockx and Maimeri Puro; at least that's my experience. Haven't tried all the paints around, only those available in most major chains and mail order catalogues like Jerry's, Daniel Smith and Pearl's. I compared Winsor Newton's Cad. Yellow Medium to Gamblin's Cad. Yellow Med., since some of my fellow workers (I sell art materials) say Gamblin is as good as WN and the Winsor is much purer and brighter and I think a clean yellow is the most valuable color on the palette. Squeeze some Winsor out and compare for yourself. Good painting.

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KHH
09-13-2000, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by icefan13:
I'm just getting back into oil painting after a looong time away. I always used to use Windsor-Newton, but the salesperson at my local art store said that they are not so hot.

Which PROFESSIONAL grade (lightfast) paints do you all prefer and why? Thanks!!!


I like Windsor-Newton Artist Oil Colors... better than others I've tried. I like the consistency. Some others seemed too wet, thinner.

AIGottlieb
09-14-2000, 06:33 AM
I used to consider consistency a major factor in choosing my paints, but now I prioritize according to what's IN the paint. Although consistency is certainly important, I have to consider the fillers, cleanliness of oil, kind of oil, quality of pigment, pigmentation, etc. etc. When I buy preground paint from Robert Doak, I buy it because he grinds only with high quality oil and high quality pigment (for the most part). Personally, I think he adds too much oil, but since it's super easy to just drain out the excess, it's no big deal. Paints that have fantastic shelf life is, as a fact, filled with mucho fillers. Great for shelf life, bad for artists.

blondheim12
09-14-2000, 11:08 PM
I like Old Holland, but they are expensive. I can't always afford them.

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www.lindablondheim.com (http://www.lindablondheim.com)

windex
09-18-2000, 07:12 PM
Personally, I love Holbein. They're expensive, but less expensive than Old Holland. Their pallette is a little higher key than traditional, though. They're beautiful, however.

Windsor-Newton artist oils are ok, but for the price? I often find that Gamblin or Utrecht makes a fine substitute, with a few exceptions. For instance, Gamblin's cad yellow light is too greeny-neon for me.

Still, I'd rather work with Holbein and Old Holland to the extent that I can afford it.

french.painter
08-21-2005, 08:58 PM
I used lots of different brands when i began to paint. But for years, i've painted with nothing than Old Holland. They are really the best. Some painters find them too stiff because they are acustomed to greasy oily extended paints very light-pigmented. Some others find it expensive. They are, indeed. But with one dark cobalt violet tube from Old Holland, you can make two or three Talens Rembrandt tubes of the so-calling same color, only by adding oil and fillers to the actual paint. You can experience yourself the comparison: buy the two brands of this color and look at the two paints. The facts will convince you.
Buy directly the good paint. If you want it softer, dilute it with some turpentine or add some oil with a rheology modifier to make your paint as short as the pure one. With this brand you have only linseed oil and the maximum loading of pure pigment. Then if you want something else in it, you can add it by yourself. In this way, you know exactly what is in your paint and you have the choice of painting with pure unadultered materials or extending it - and then sacrifying the exact quality (lightfastness, ageing, mechanical film resistance, color purity...) you can sacrify, not another one.
Some friends told me about Williamsburg paints made by Carl Plansky in NY. They seem to be as good as Old Holland, and since you live in USA they will be probably easier to find. May be less expensive because they don't have to be shiped across the ocean. But I can't confirm because I have never tried them.

Keith Russell
08-21-2005, 09:57 PM
Anyone have any experience with Art Spectrum Oils, from Australia?

I'm placing a small order (8 150 ml tubes) from them tomorrow; they have some interesting colours, to add to the 'mix' of other paints I have: Grumbacher, Rembrandt, M. Graham, Utrecht, W & N...

Keith.

dcorc
08-21-2005, 10:35 PM
Just to point out that this is a 5 year old thread which has been disinterred here.

I'd also point out that there are several premium grade oil paint manufacturers now - local availability can vary.

Keith, I should imagine several of our Aus and NZ painters have experience of the Art Spectrum Oils and can comment about them :)

Dave

sbaraci
08-21-2005, 10:47 PM
There are different paints that suit the different people with their styles and goals. I chose Norma by Schmincke paints, because they use high quality pigment and they feel wonderful. For me it was long search, I hope you can find what suits you the most soon. Also I hated Artist Spectrum and Artist Prism paints they did not feel right, bad quality pigment felt like student grade paints sometimes too oily sometimes felt like clay. I found that the Normas felt smooth, never too oily and could go long way.

Keith Russell
08-23-2005, 09:18 PM
Well, I've ordered the Art Spectrum paints, primarily in colours I can't find in any other manufactuer's line. I have a pretty serious collection of various oils, in various thicknesses, and never use paint 'straight' out of the tube, either in terms of unmixed, or without some oil and/or thinner added.

So, if I don't like the consistency of the Art Spectrum paints, don't worry.

I can fix that...

Keith

gunzorro
08-24-2005, 01:18 AM
Keith -- I've been curious for some time about the AS paints and recently started buying some. I have had good results with their acrylic clear gesso and Trisha in England has done some really great paintings on their primed colored papers (black, I think she used the most). So I bought a few of the "Australian" colors -- leaf green, in light and dark, the leaf green bluish, the Red Gold, as well as transparent black. These colors are unique and very pleasant. I am impressed. Although these are blends of multiple pigments, they are very nicely done. That shouldn't scare any OH fans -- many OH colors have four or more pigments in them, but we still love those too! :) I am planning on ordering more, especially the clear, and a few others. I think you will be happy and I'd like to hear from you after you try them. Jim

Marty C
08-24-2005, 05:08 AM
Hi Keith,
I have used Art Spectrum for all my oils and really like them, although I have just bought some Archival oils on the recommendation of a friend of mine who has used them for some time. Pigment load is good, some colours seem to have a higher oil content than others but overall they are high quality oils. They have an "Australian " range of colours to cover the Aussie landscape with its unique hues, but increasingly I find myself using just a cad yellow, permanent crimson, pthalo or um blue plus titanium white with burnt umber/burnt sienna making the occasional appearance. Price wise they are the very competitive in Australia. I think you will be very happy with them.

Keith Russell
08-27-2005, 02:36 PM
Thanks, gunzorro and Marty.

The paints have been ordered; can't wait 'til they arrive.

I'll let everyone know how I like them, after I've used them...

Keith.

borodin
11-06-2006, 04:08 PM
I am doing the same thing. At first I believe that it does not really matter which paint you use cheap or expensive. What matters is that you get back into it, remember, relearn, put paint – any paint on the canvas and see what evolves when you get back to where you were, or better then worry about the paint. I even dug up my old paints and am using those that are useable, and only purchased the three primaries. Good luck.

However, if you have lots, and lots, of money it really does not matter either, start with the cheapest.

Borodin:)

krpolak
11-07-2006, 12:36 AM
I have tried Archival Oils and wasnt very happy with them. There is few resons:

1. Did test painting and after few weeks its still tacky, gathering more and more dust from air. I used titanium white and lamb black. Layer I put was realively thin. Similar layer done in W&N was touch dry after 5-7 days. I ordered their thin medium which is based on alkyd. I will check how that will work.

2. The say to incorporate some plasticier. I am not sure if that is a reason, but pressed by knife paint dont spread nicely, its give strange resistance. It feels of W&N Alkyd.

3. However I like greys produces from lamb black and titanium while.

Now this paint stays in my drawer and waits for better times ;-)

Regards,

K.Polak

number19
11-07-2006, 04:15 PM
I recommend that you try Blockx oil paints. What a wonderful color line ! -
very refined - yet pure and vibrant. They are to my mind, given their buttery consistency, particularly well suited to wet into wet painting. Michael Harding is another paint maker you might want to check out - his colors are also very pure and vibrant and like Blockx his paints seem to be manufactured to a very high standard. - Jack

JamieM
11-07-2006, 04:34 PM
Old Holland for me. Homemade is best though.

TinaD
11-07-2006, 05:00 PM
hey guys! I love talking materials:-) I had a teacher...early on, who encouraged me to only buy quality paint (at the very least Winsor Newton over Winton). It made a huge difference.

I'm pretty much an OH girl...especially for my staples...if I want a "fun" color I might buy a slightly lesser brand. I've bought a couple of "Williamsburg" and hated the graininess of the texture...sorry, can't recommend them.

Why do I love OH? Great consistency out of the tube, fantastic pigmentation, reliable quality. Yup, they are expensive...but I'm worth it:-)

Mylius
11-08-2006, 09:35 AM
Hello all - old and new in this aging but useful thread!

I have used, with good results Utrecht and Winsor Newton. Years ago, in New York, I liked Bellini and Weber.

But my advice, whatever brand one buys, is to purchase a manual like Gettens and Stout, "Painting Materials: A Short Encyclopaedia" (repr. Dover) in order to see what the chemical content of a paint ought to be or at least traditionally has been, and buy accordingly. And NEVER buy a paint product that does not clearly identify its chemical contents.

Has anyone out there tried "Van Gogh" paints, made in the Netherlands?

Mylius

jdadson
11-08-2006, 04:17 PM
I am not real persnickety. I can live with most Grumbacher, Gamblin, Winsor and Newton, etc. I'm using some Van Gough ivory black right now and the world has not come to an end. But I will say that I never want to be without StudioProducts flake white again. I'm going to order some of their earth colors. Maybe I'll be hooked on those too.

I've had two bad experiences with W&N. First I accidentally bought some Winton (student grade) flake white by misclicking on the internet. Unusable! It was almost transparent, and it took weeks to dry. More recently I got some W&N putative burnt sienna. I didn't read the fine print until after I tried the stuff. It was actually PR101, mars red. No joy.

Mark Diederichsen
11-08-2006, 05:45 PM
Old Holland

TinaD
11-08-2006, 09:58 PM
LOL...I was just telling someone if I ever became famous and had artist assistants I would have them mix my paints for me:-)

Agree with a good Manual...I couldn't live without my Ralph Meyers.

Still, I sense a trend towards OH...or am I just biased.

Oh I tried Van Gogh once and found it watery...

krpolak
11-09-2006, 04:35 AM
BTW, I have checked my test board (Frederix) with Archival Oils I did one month ago. Four samples on titanium white have nice, light-cream colour now. Also still tacky collecting more and more dust from air :)

Regards,

K.Polak

Brian Firth
11-09-2006, 12:10 PM
K. Polak,
You should contact the manufacturer http://www.archivaloils.com/ . They recently re-packaged the Archival oils and reformulated some of the colors. Perhaps they have fixed this problem? They also may have had some bad batches. I have some archival oils, some dry slowly but no more than some other oils, and when they are dry they aren't tacky.

Brian Firth
11-09-2006, 12:24 PM
Oh, and I use and recommend Winsor and Newton Artists Oils, M. Graham, Grumbacher Pre-Tested, Rowney Artists Oils, Gamblin, Rembrandt, and Holbein.

I also use Winsor and Newton Winton, Talens Van Gogh and Daler-Rowney Gerogian. These are all student ranges, with lower pigment loads and smaller color ranges, but they still have some very workable paints that are a real bargain.

I don't think there is a one best brand. Each brand has some real stand out colors and also some real stinkers. Also, one persons favorite color in a certain brand could be the least favorite of another artists. It all really comes down to personal preference. Honestly, I have never used any "horrible" artists oils. Some are over priced in my opinion, and some may be to oily or thick for someone's personal tastes, but the paint isn't "bad". Some people measure quality by the amount pigment, some by handling, some by the colors, some by consistent drying across the range, etc. There is NO GOLD STANDARD in oil paint. They all have their appeal and it just comes down to taste. You really just need to experiment and find the colors and brands which suit you the best. Have fun!

krpolak
11-09-2006, 04:18 PM
Brian,

I could, but how can I trust a brand called themself Archival Oils and having some serious problem resulting in reformulating paint? Try to imagine that I would do a comission work with this paint worth 10k and after a month whole thing turns creamy color. There is too many good brands around to carry this issue and I vote with my wallet :)

Regards,

K.Polak

gunzorro
11-10-2006, 02:18 AM
I recently had a dialog with another artist on this general subject.

These are paints I would recommend in approximately this order. I don't think you can go wrong overall if you stay in the top level. Even there, some paints by Harding and Doak are quite reasonably priced. I have Vasari paints on order, so don't have any first hand experience yet -- I should have after next Monday! They are expected to be near the top.

My current "hot pick" is the Maimeri Puro. Love the colors!

Here's what I've come up with at this point in time:

Top quality paints
OH
Maimeri Puro
Blockx
Mussini
Doak
Harding
Williamsburg
Studio Products

Mid grade paints
Holbein
Winsor Newton Artist
Art Spectrum
LaFranc & Bougeois
Rembrandt
Sennelier
Gamblin
Da Vinci

Student grade (acceptable)
Maimeri Classico
Winton (some)

MORAN784
11-10-2006, 05:13 PM
There are a couple of factors to consider in OILS.

One is Hue versus regular pigment.
A hue is a synthetic chemical mixture to make a color similar to the more expensive colors they imitate. I do not reccommend as you will not get proper color mixing in my experience.

Two. Lightfastness. Having color that is exposed to natural light and will fade is poor as my primary consideration for artwork is permanence.
Often paints have a a star rating with colors. Each company rates differently.

Three. Filler. CHeaper colors use chalk, wax, and other fillers which really blow chances of getting proper color mixes and results. Think of two pigments looking to interact and fighting past wax, you can imagine this is not a good recipe.

With those factors in mind I will explain what paints I use.

With full disclosure, I have been supported via contest winnings from Daniel Smith, and I was awarded a full pallette of color.
With that in mind, their color is pure pigment in linseed oil and they use no fillers, they are also reasonably priced, and also they really search the world for unique pigments. Some can be really magical.

Another brand of paint I have used is Williamsburg paint. Not available in every store or catalogue. I think Dick Blick and Jerry's Art- O - Rama carries these colors. These colors again are pure pigments and linseed oil and generally lightfast throughout the catalogue. They are made in small batches and true quality with hand written labels on them.

Finally the densest, thickest packed full of pigment is Old Holland, the oldest operating paint company in the world. They are thicker than both other mentioned brands. There is a complete lightfast pallette of 116 colors I believe. They are the most expensive. Cobalt Violet is 75 dollars for a 20 ml tube in some stores.

I paint with these colors. I am happy with Daniel smith it offers interesting color choices and irridescence that Old Holland does not. Williamsburg is just classy great paint very similar to Old Holland without the cost.

Old Holland has Lead in it's White paint. Caution.

As far as Windsor Newton, they offer a variety of quality of paints.
Student grade ect. various lightfastness. I use little of their paint.

most of all.. I reccommend to all painters if they are concerned with paint and color and presentation. Watch your thinner, I see too many people use turoentine and not rinse clean. So whatever paint they use is ruined by mud sentiment.

Those are my thoughts, I hope they helped.

Patrick.

You can view my work here:
http://moran784.com

thanks.

kazucks
11-10-2006, 05:53 PM
I don't think there is a one best brand. Each brand has some real stand out colors and also some real stinkers. Also, one persons favorite color in a certain brand could be the least favorite of another artists. It all really comes down to personal preference. Honestly, I have never used any "horrible" artists oils. Some are over priced in my opinion, and some may be to oily or thick for someone's personal tastes, but the paint isn't "bad". Some people measure quality by the amount pigment, some by handling, some by the colors, some by consistent drying across the range, etc. There is NO GOLD STANDARD in oil paint. They all have their appeal and it just comes down to taste. You really just need to experiment and find the colors and brands which suit you the best. Have fun!

I find myself agreeing frequently with much that Brian says in his technical analysis of pigments, mediums, etc. I have been painting for nearly forty years and what he says is true from my perspective. Much comes down to personal preference and I might add how it is used. Some artist's are essentially alla prima painters and they may like the paint a bit on the dry side. Those that do multiple layering may like it a bit on the wet side. Nearly all paint manufacturers seem to formulate at least one color that is better than most. Some colors are really pretty poor even in the super premium lines. That being said, I use more Old Holland and Williamsburg paint than any other types. Both of these two paints are worth every penny you pay for them (except for a few colors that are marginal). Rembrandt has some wonderful earth colors that are remarkable. I recently started using some paints from Natural Pigments that are incredible, really, really outstanding. I have used Windsor Newton Professional series cadmiums and they are reliable, all though not as spectacular as some others. Schminke-Mussini and Blockx have some colors in their line that are wonderfully formulated and creamy like butter. I have used some David Davis oils that were wonderful rich cadmiums with only linseed oil and much of them dried in the tubes. I just put in a large order for some Daniel Smith oil paint, they have some colors that are very, very, unusual. Some of the most exquisite paints that I have ever used were some cadmiums from Winsor Newton that appear to be from the 1940's. Man did they make some cads back then. Much more highly pigmented than the current crop. Most professional painters will pick and choose their favorites among a broad line of paints. Two of the most famous painters that I ever met found at least one favorite in very unlikely sources-Permanent Pigments and LeFranc and B. So it is possible to get exactly what you want, you just have to pick and choose.

Also, I have made my own chip charts of the tubes that I own. There is great variation in manufacturers standards for common pigment types. Nearly all the cadmium reds as an example are different in hue, value and chroma. Get to know what you have so that you can relate them to what you might want to add.

gunzorro
11-10-2006, 06:21 PM
I'm sorry -- I should have included Daniel Smith. I place the current production paints just below Holbein and just above WN. The discontinued DS Autograph series was in the top level, right around the Blockx -- outstanding paint, and sadly no longer made. :(

LGHumphrey
11-12-2006, 10:08 AM
gunzorro, if your list is correct then someone should tell Richard Schmid to start using some decent paint.

borodin
11-12-2006, 04:16 PM
Is it me, or is it you, or do we get freebies for pushing paint?

Flake White is Lead White it comes from lead, lead oxide (white), iron oxide (red), now and forever the whitest white, not at all transparent.

Also, the drier medium in oil paint is oil and takes anywhere from two to six months to dry depending on thickness and color.

Additionally, some colors dry brilliant, and some flat that is why when the painting is done maybe after a year it is good to use varnish of Damar, makes painting all nice and shinny, but make very sure there is no moisture in the air or get very big problems.

Sincerely,

Borodin

turlogh
11-12-2006, 08:28 PM
gunzorro, if your list is correct then someone should tell Richard Schmid to start using some decent paint.
Plenty of good painters use mid-grade or even student-grade paint. That doesn't mean the paint is good. They may have just happened to have started with that paint, learned how to use it, and never saw any reason to switch.

Of course, skill is infinitely more important than paint quality for making good pictures.

turlogh
11-12-2006, 08:36 PM
Is it me, or is it you, or do we get freebies for pushing paint?
I wish.

Flake White is Lead White it comes from lead, lead oxide (white), iron oxide (red), now and forever the whitest white, not at all transparent.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Flake white is basic lead carbonate, not lead oxide. It has less tinting strength and covering power than titanium white.

Also, the drier medium in oil paint is oil and takes anywhere from two to six months to dry depending on thickness and color.

Additionally, some colors dry brilliant, and some flat that is why when the painting is done maybe after a year it is good to use varnish of Damar, makes painting all nice and shinny, but make very sure there is no moisture in the air or get very big problems.
And what does that have to do with the subject under discussion?

borodin
11-12-2006, 11:16 PM
First, you answer my question good – no freebies.

Second, the reverse is true, and flake white is much more than lead carbonate, in fact you must have lead oxide read below.

Historically important forms of lead are primarily red (lead tetroxide or red lead), yellow (lead tin oxide, known as massicot or lead yellow, used up to the mid 18th century) and white (lead carbonate mixed with lead hydroxide and/or lead oxide, and lead sulfate) pigments that have been used in Europe and China from antiquity up to the present day. Both lead carbonate (as flake white or cremnitz white) and lead antimony (naples yellow) have marvelous pigment attributes. Lead white is probably the most important white pigment in the history of painting, and is still favored in oil paints for its warmth, opacity (not transparent) and buttery handling and for the tendency of unprotected lead pigments to turn brown or black in the presence of sulfur (urban air pollution). The color of naples yellow, which can range from a pale yellow to a light reddish brown, is usually simulated with a mixture of yellow cadmium sulfide and red iron oxide, lightened with zinc white. However these mixtures are often fugitive; Winsor & Newton has replaced their earlier naples yellow hue with chrome titanate yellow. They are also unsatisfactory because they will darken when mixed with cadmium pigments. So a rose by any other name.

The modern technique of oil painting was created circa 1410 by Jan van Eyck. Though van Eyck was not the first artist to use oil paint, he was the first who is known to have produced a stable siccative oil mixture which could be used to bind mineral pigments. Van Eyck’s mixture probably consisted of piled glass, calcined bones, and mineral pigments boiled in linseed oil until reaching a viscous state.

Antonello da Messina later introduced another improvement to oil paint: he added litharge, or lead oxide, to the mixture. The new mixture had a honey-like consistency and increased siccative properties. This medium was known as oglio cotto—"cooked oil."

Leonardo da Vinci improved the technique even further by cooking the mixture at a low temperature and adding 5 to 10% beeswax, which prevented dramatic darkening of the finished paint. Giorgione, Titian, and Tintoretto each slightly altered this recipe for their own purposes.

During his stay in Italy, Rubens studied the Italian oil paint mixture. He later made his own improvement, using walnut oil warmed with litharge and adding mastic dissolved in turpentine.

Many artists today consider oil paint to be one of the fundamental art media; something that a student should learn to appreciate, because of its properties and use in previous, very popular artwork. Typical qualities of oil paint include:

* the long open time, where paint will not dry for up to several weeks, allowing the artist to work on a painting for several sessions.
* the propensity for the paint to blend into surrounding paint allowing very subtle blending of colors.
* An important disadvantage is the necessity to use volatile, flammable and unhealthy thinners.

Students, however, may not appreciate oil, because of some of the difficulties related to the qualities that make it such a valuable medium: the long open time complicating finishing a painting, and the propensity for the paint to blend into surrounding paint by accidental brush strokes.

Third, “Which Oil Paint Brand Do YOU Recommend. . . ,” I thought it might be useful to know about paints and how they are made before deciding on which brand to use. Also, even the masters had to know this, since they usually made their own paint.

Finally, my point was and is that what is important is the basic composition, then the work of getting it to look like what you want, then to learn the mixing of the colors, then worry about whether the blob of brown on the canvas was made with $100 dollars or with $15 dollars, unless you get a consistent 100% on all your paintings, I know I do not I would, would, be very happy with one in ten. And I am happy with my exam I just blew with a 5.5 on a scale of 10 why I am not sure, but at least we are talking about which paint brand dy you recommend? Not so?

Composition, light, and color on a good painting does not depend in any way on the cost, the gentle being behind the brush is the operative term. No offense intended in any of my comments. I am just presenting my opinion for what it may or may not be worth.

Sincerely,

Borodin:wave:

borodin
11-12-2006, 11:24 PM
Besides we have the same opinion, is this not so?

Borodin

gunzorro
11-13-2006, 01:17 AM
I wouldn't say there is anything wrong with the paints Schmid uses in his videos. L&B, WN Artist, Gamblin and Rembrandt as I recall. These are fine mid grade paints with a looseness desired for his style of painting. Schmid's colors in painting tend to be quite blended and toned down, not needing super-vibrant or ultra-thick pigments.
As Turlogh says, to paraphrase, painting quality trumps paint quality.

V-A
11-13-2006, 02:10 AM
I just simply answer the main question :)
I would recommend Rembrants (Talens). Because they dont seem to freeze up so quickly in extreme cold situations.

Howard Metzenberg
11-13-2006, 04:14 AM
I’ll share an industry perspective. First of all, Dick Blick currently offers roughly 20 different lines of artist grade oils, 5 of water mixable oils, and 10 of student grade oils. But even with all those brands, we still don’t have about half the brands that exist somewhere in the world, by my reckoning.

To me, this is like selling soap. It's not that I believe that all twenty brands are equal. But if all you had to do was get clean, any brand of soap would do.

There is a roughly three-fold difference in price between the most expensive artist grade oils and the least expensive brands. What I do feel about the artist grade oils we carry is that any artist could get used to using any one of them, and would find that they could do more or less what they wanted to, with some gnashing of the teeth if they are used to something else. Which is to say, if you had never tried anything else, you would probably be happy. I've visited a few places in the world that are very poor, where professional artists who can afford only a student grade paint still manage to produce masterful works. Here is some marketing lingo:


Brand Strategy. How you market your paint, or how you position your line of paint against other competitive brands. Spending money on Brand Strategy is known as Brand Development. It can include hiring and commissioning sales reps, advertising in magazines, direct promotion to retailers, giving away samples, or even hiring somebody (a shill) to create buzz for your brand in forums like Wet Canvas.

Competition for Shelf Space. A grocery store has only one aisle for soda, and one aisle for breakfast cereal. Manufacturers must compete for that space. Often they pay for their position. Some racks of paint sit at eye level, while others are at floor level. The most valuable spaces in the store are the forward facing “end caps” and these are usually “leased out” to manufacturers, who may even design the displays they contain, or produce their own “visuals” and promotional materials. While a manufacturer can buy shelf space in the short term, the brand has to have “pull” in the long term. Competition for scarce catalog positions is equivalent to competition for shelf space.

Product Life Cycle. The concept of a product life cycle suggests that there is a normal progression of a product from introduction to market leadership to dissolution and decay, and finally death. Where are the different brands of oil paint located in their product life cycles?



Without identifying which brand falls into which categories, I want to know which brands you as an artist think belong in which categories. You tell me! My lips are sealed. This is going to be interesting.


Market Leader. A brand that every retailer or reseller has to have to be in business. A market leader is generally a Cash Cow. There are usually no more than two or three market leaders at a time, and sometimes there is only one. Although market leaders are brands that you have to have, you don't necessarily make much money on them. They can be like gallons of milk at the supermarket, with margins so low that retailers end up hating them. The market leader has to craft a careful strategy to stay the market leader.

New Kid on the Block. A brand that is being introduced or reintroduced, and for which consumers lack knowledge or experience, so it is still being positioned.

Cash Cow. An established brand that returns much more to the bottom line than is invested in Brand Development. The term Cash Cow is said to have originated with the Boston Consulting Group, a legendary market research firm, and is part of every MBA’s lingo.

Premium Brand. A brand that consumers consider to be a high end, and are willing to pay a premium for. Most new brands are introduced as premium brands.

Snob Paint. Super premium brand. You can be sure that if some famous actor takes up painting, he will start out using Snob Paint, even for his first lesson.

Captive Brand. You have to use this brand to paint like so-and-so.

Discount Brand. A brand that can compete with higher end brands only by selling at a lower price. Many older brands end up in this category.

Problem Child. A cash cow that has fallen into disfavor. It requires an infusion of Brand Development money to promote it back to premium status. Otherwise, it will become a Dying Brand.

Dying Brand. A brand that was once a Cash Cow, but is giving less and less milk. This sounds terrible, but it can be the right strategy to let a brand die. You don’t have to invest much in promoting it while it is dying, and many of its customers will remain loyal until the bitter end. Dying brands tend to lose quality as they die, often in subtle ways. A less expensive grade of pigment is used for a color, or the grinding time is cut back to save electricity.

Brand Repositioning. Taking an established brand and changing its image or strategy to appeal to a new market segment. A few years back the ancient New England clothier Abercrombie & Fitch repositioned itself to sell skimpy clothes to teenagers. The deodorant Old Spice repositioned itself from dying grandfathers to teenage boys, without ever changing the formula. It can be cheaper to reposition a brand, because the established brand already has its place on store shelves, a foot in the door.

House Brand. Also known as Private Label, a house brand is usually a Discount Brand that has been repackaged with the name of the retailer instead of the name of the manufacturer. This allows the retailer to get a higher share of the sale price. In the art materials industry, there are several national retailers or catalogers that manufacture their own House Brand, or at least own their own formula. House Brands can be problematic in negotiations with manufacturers, who consider them a conflict of interest.

Market Whore. This is one of the strategies for getting attention if you are not well known and lack shelf space. The problem with being the Market Whore is that you risk becoming a Problem Child and then a Dying Brand before you have ever had a chance to become a Cash Cow. Being the Market Whore is like taking steroids to promote your brand.

Cabbage Patch Doll. Back in 1984, this was the toy that every child wanted. I oughta know. I worked as a department store Santa that year. The strategy was to limit the supply so that children would want it because they couldn’t have it.



Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

PS: It's not 5:00 am where I am. I am traveling.

turlogh
11-13-2006, 09:27 AM
[FONT=Times New Roman]Second, the reverse is true, and flake white is much more than lead carbonate, in fact you must have lead oxide read below.
It's my understanding that modern lead whites are primarily basic lead carbonate, with very trace amounts of other lead compounds. Historically, when real flake white was made using the stack process, lead white contained acetates and other "impurities."

The modern technique of oil painting was created circa 1410 by Jan van Eyck.
You seem to be summarizing the opinions of early 20th century academics such as Jacques Maroger. You might want to look at more recent work, based on much more advanced analysis techniques, by organizations such as the National Gallery in London. While hardly representing The Truth, they've advanced the field considerably since the 1950's.

Howard Metzenberg
11-13-2006, 10:33 AM
David,

Don't be offended, please. You are turning this into one of those exchanges between two very smart people who each want to prove that they are smarter and know more than the other. This isn't Harvard or Yale. I don't think people want to listen. Why don't you take your discussion private, if you want to continue it.

Borodin is a newbie. Don't scare him away. He looks like a good long-term member of Wet Canvas, and I want him to stick around. The original Borodin was a chemist (I use this word in the American English sense, a scientist, not a pharmacist) who also wrote classical music, and is remembered for the latter. So I suspect that our Borodin knows a lot of chemistry, and that's why he chose that moniker, but I have no desire to see who can one-up whom in this whole exchange.

I'd like to see this discussion get back to oil painting brands (the original subject) because it is such great market research for me. I do have a vested interest, don't I? I want to find out what people think about the different oil paint brands, how they perceive them. I will even pass the ideas along to some of the manfacturers and distributors.

Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

gunzorro
11-13-2006, 01:46 PM
Howard – first of all, I would like to say what a pleasure it is to have your insights and honesty conveyed here on WC. On this thread and the Puro thread there is a lot to be learned.
I’ll take a stab at your marketing survey. Hopefully after enough opinions have been ventured by other artists, you will give your insight and synopsis.

Market Leader. Winsor Newton Artist. Regardless of how artists may see ultimate quality, when buyers walk in a store or peruse a web listing, I think they want to see WN, at least for a comparison in price and quality.

New Kid on the Block. Michael Harding. Similar to a movie going into limited release to generate word of mouth and a following of influential artists.

Cash Cow. Gamblin

Premium Brand. Williamsburg, Old Holland, Blockx, Mussini, Maimeri Puro

Snob Paint. Old Holland

Captive Brand. Blockx

Discount Brand. Da Vinci

Problem Child. Maimeri Puro

Dying Brand. Utrecht, Winsor Newton Artist

Brand Repositioning. Sennelier

House Brand. Dick Blick

Market Whore. ??? An “insider” might know far better than I could guess. From what you’ve said on the other thread, it sounds like Puro’s US marketing is causing it to fall into this category.

Cabbage Patch Doll. Williamsburg

I’d like to add the following category:
Independent Brand/Independent Marketing. Daniel Smith, Doak, Vasari, Studio Products

TinaD
11-13-2006, 02:24 PM
I would agree with gunzorro on most of his assessments.

Definitely WN for market leader...as a guage to compare price and I don't know if I've ever been in an art store without it.

I would have added OH to the Captive brand.

Winton and Amsterdam for the discount brand.

House brand add Utrecht.

And I like the addition of Independent Brand...which I might add will probably always appeal to certain artists because it's anti-establishment:-)

Razorman
11-13-2006, 02:35 PM
I'm giving the Graham stuff a try. I'm looking to see if it really produces the jewel like tones I'm after.

Daniel Smith a close second. They're just up the road.

borodin
11-13-2006, 02:42 PM
Mr. Metzenberg

This is not an intellectual issue, if you want a paint brand I would suggest Pre-Tested® the name of Grumbacher's professional range of oil colors, over the Winton that tend to dry out in the tube before use. But my point is still use the paint brand available to you financially and in your area. If I were to ask here in El Paso, Texas for: OH,
Maimeri Puro, or the others the answer would be “What’s that, oh! – No we don’t carry that paint you might try The Home Depot.” I know, I can obtain them online, but then my choice of paint is usually olfactive. Therefore, I like to see, touch, and most importantly smell the paint prior to purchase.

This brings me back to the beginning, I buy what is available in my area, and that is my suggestion.

I never enter chat rooms or forums, this is the first and that is because there are artists here and conversation, argumentative or otherwise, with them and should provide me with some relaxation, learning, and maybe contribute something.

Sincerely,

Borodin

LGHumphrey
11-13-2006, 03:29 PM
David and gunzorro, thanks for your replies to my post, I agree completely with what you both have said.

Howard, what a pleasure to have your expertise on this forum.

gunzorro, of the really good ones on your list, which ones would you say are the softest and creamiest?

turlogh
11-13-2006, 03:45 PM
David,

Don't be offended, please. You are turning this into one of those exchanges between two very smart people who each want to prove that they are smarter and know more than the other.
I am by no means offended. If my tone came across as snooty or offended, then I apologize to Borodin and to others who've participated in this thread.

Howard Metzenberg
11-13-2006, 04:53 PM
David,

Thanks for a very nice response. I come from a family full of intellectuals and PhD academics, and I've been running away from academia ever since I dropped out of graduate school.

I am not going to give my own perceptions about which are the Market Leaders and which are the Dying Brands. But my insight on what people say here on Wet Canvas is that many of you are ahead of the curve, and you sense what might be happening to some of these brands before it actually happens, which is why I want to hear. When somebody on Wet Canvas suggests that a brand may be in trouble, the owners of the brand need to figure out how (and whether) to take corrective action.

Well, let me throw out a couple of other marketing concepts to keep the ball rolling:


Brand Portfolio: Companies typically own a portfolio of brands, which are related, and have synergies. They can promote and distribute them together more efficiently than they could promote them apart. For example, the Col Art company, which belongs to a Swedish conglomerate, owns Winsor & Newton (which is itself several different brands, artist and student grade), Liquitex, Reeves, LeFranc, and several other brands.

Brand Recognition: When your brand name gets known, you use it in related areas. For example, if you have a hugely successful oil paint, then you could sell brushes with the same name, and have at least somewhat of a ready-made market. Old Holland has just introduced a line of brushes in the US market.

Brand Identification: I am fascinated with the teenage clothing retailer Abercrombie & Fitch. I go there to buy gift cards for teenagers in my family. I see a skirt so short that I am shocked, even though I grew up in Madison, Wisconsin, in the 1970s. Do you actually think one of my teenage cousins is going to wear that skirt? How do the boys in high school ever study these days, if that's how the girls dress? I'll let her parents decide if she can wear it, if that's what she wants. What I see is teenagers identifying with this brand, wearing its logo everyday. And this has been going on for years. The skirt is on display to horrify parents. I have yet to see a teenager actually wear it. I think some painters really identify with their brand, the way teenagers identify with Abercrombie. Are there any oil paint brands that have a loyalty or following like that?

Brand Loyalty: When I was a child, my parents bought me a tube of Pepsident toothpaste by Lever Brothers. I refused to use any other toothpaste for the rest of my childhood, even though we lived on Colgate Road (named for the college, not the toothpaste), and even though the rest of the family switched to Crest. I continued to use Pepsident after I left home. But then, Pepsident changed the flavor and replaced the metal tubes with cheap plastic tubes. I finally dropped the brand, and moved to Tom's of Maine.



I was sure that someone would object to my statement that selling oil paint is like selling soap, even though I qualified it carefully. So far, nobody has. What I wanted to say to this very informed audience was that oil paints are brands from the point of view of those who sell them, and as brands they are managed.

Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

Howard Metzenberg
11-13-2006, 05:16 PM
To give a better idea of what a Market Whore is ... They have discounted themselves excessively to pick up market share. The eventual result is that no independent retailers want to support them anymore. Catalogs no longer have room for them.

Another such strategy is to give yourself over to only one suitor and let them pretend you are the New Kid on the Block, while discounting the heck out of you.

Now, part of Dick Blick's strategy is to come up with a New Kid on the Block in each category about once a year. Of course, the other leading online/catalog retailer is trying to do exactly the same thing we are.

When the New Kid on the Block comes to us, we want to make sure they work with us and not that other guy. We tell them, we don't want to see your price go into the toilet. Of course, what we want them to think is, if they go out with the other guy, they will become the Market Whore.

Now I'm not suggesting we're really any better than that other guy. I'd say we're both like high school boys with questionable reputations, and we have no business impugning the reputations of any of the girls.

Sounds like skanky paint, doesn't it?

Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

HarvestMoon
11-13-2006, 05:42 PM
I am terrible at oil painting, but someday may actually produce something ready to post. But I love the Old Holland paint......
Linda

gunzorro
11-14-2006, 02:07 AM
Razorman -- The creamiest of the premiums I listed is the Puro, but it is also somewhat oily (not as bad as Rembrandt or some others). The pigment more than makes up for occasional pigment/oil separation, which can happen in even the best brands.
Follow that by Mussini, which is its own animal, using resins in addition to the linseed oil. Outstanding uniformity and color throughout the range. More buttery in consistency with no waxiness.
Next in creaminess -- Blockx, particularly in their poppy oil based colors. The earth colors are more traditionally ground into linseed and some exhibit slight granularity, similar to Williamsburg. But overall the line is quite creamy.
All the premium paints I listed have high pigment loads.
Old Holland is outstanding, but a thicker paint. No real problem there -- use of a little medium will make it however you want, something you can't do with "longer" paints.
Where are you from in Washington? My home town is on Grays Harbor.

Borodin -- When I started oil painting in the late 60s, Grumbacher was a family owned company making fine (for the time) paint and outstanding brushes. It was the market leader for artist paints. WN was considered semi-premium and out of reach for most aspiring student artists. Currently I would list the Grumbacher brand as dead, but doesn't yet know it. I would rank it near or at the top of student grade paints today (or maybe the absolute bottom of mid-grade paints). In the 70's is was an upper mid-grade contender.
No Blick or other discount quality art store in El Paso? How about Juarez? :) You definitely have to mail order, dude! I live in LA and I mail order paint and supplies 95% of the time! :)

Howard -- as far as brand loyalty goes, I am pretty much a mutt. I have certain lines I promote for personal reasons like value, color, quality, but own a wide range of brands. I'm always looking for the Holy Grail of each and every color. I have no financial interests in art materials manufacturing or sales, and unfortunatley am not receiving any free materials from any manufacturers. Damn! I'd be happy to try things, but thus far I've financed my own collection. :)

Brian Firth
11-14-2006, 10:40 AM
I have to defend Grumbacher Pre-Tested. In all honesty the brand has been passed around a lot in the last couple of decades and it has seen better days. However, it was just purchased by ChartPak and from my communications with them they seem dedicated to brinng Grumbacher back to its previous glory. That said, even presently their paints are still good quality for great prices. $10 for a decent cobalt violet light at dickblick.com can't be beat. Their cadmiums at around $7 are a great bargain as well. Yes they have a few stinkers (name a brand that doesn’t), but I use and recommend them often and quite a few colors like their Quinacridone Orange (PO48), Thalo Blue (PB15) , Nickel Yellow (PY157) and Perylene Maroon (PR179) are very, very highly pigmented. I have met many professionals who use Pre-Tested and they had no complaints. I buy them and continue to buy them with no complaints for their price and quality. Much better than any student grade paint!

Brian Firth
11-14-2006, 10:50 AM
Here's my take:

Market Leader: Winsor and Newton by a mile without any other brand in sight!

New Kid on the Block: M. Graham.

Cash Cow: Winsor and Newton again.

Premium Brand: Old Holland.

Snob Paint: Old Holland, Doak, Studio Products.

Captive Brand: Rembrandt, Gamblin, Winsor and Newton

Discount Brand: Da Vinci.

Problem Child: Grumbacher Pre-Tested.

Dying Brand: Shiva Oils

Brand Repositioning: Williamsburg

House Brand: Dick Blick. :)

Market Whore: None.

Cabbage Patch Doll: Doak.

Howard Metzenberg
11-15-2006, 02:59 AM
The less expensive brands of oil paint often achieve the magic of a moderately priced Cadmium Yellow paint by blending the Cadmium with Permanent Yellow (PY65), or by precipitating the Cadmium with Barium Sulfate, another yellow pigment. In both cases, this produces a workable Cadmium that covers and mixes like a Cadmium, except that it has a bit less tinting power. For example, Grumbacher's Pre-tested line contains Cadmium-Barium pigments, while Shiva adds some PY65 to the mixture.

You may get some idea of how the pigment is mixed by looking at the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS), which we make available on our site. An icon that you can click to bring up the MSDS is located next to the Quantity box on our site. MSDS sheets must disclose the ingredients, but they don't tell you the proportions. MSDS sheets come from the manufacturer, and are a required disclosure if the product is used in certain institutions such as schools.

I simply don't see anything wrong with this. I know there are purists who think you should only paint with pure pigments. But I know that a high percentage of our customers are students, who often can't afford artist grade paints. (Or so they say, but they can afford beer!). Since I know that we have a range of customers, and they are at a range of levels of skill and income, I feel we have to have a range of paints to offer them. I don't diss anybody's paint.

Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

Howard Metzenberg
11-15-2006, 03:11 AM
Howard -- as far as brand loyalty goes, I am pretty much a mutt. I have certain lines I promote for personal reasons like value, color, quality, but own a wide range of brands. I'm always looking for the Holy Grail of each and every color. I have no financial interests in art materials manufacturing or sales, and unfortunatley am not receiving any free materials from any manufacturers. Damn! I'd be happy to try things, but thus far I've financed my own collection. :)

Gunzorro:

You are exactly the kind of customer we love, the one that picks and chooses among different brands to find the best version of each color. That's one reason why we offer all the brands.

There isn't a lot of money to be made in art materials. How many artists do you know that really buy serious paint? Many of these companies make their paint in tiny batches.

In a couple of weeks, I am going to be in Portland, Oregon. I have just written Art Graham (of M. Graham) and Robert and Martha Gamblin to see if I can visit. I haven't heard back from them yet, but I've been invited before, so I know I will be welcome. I don't know if they will let me take any pictures while I am there, and don't know if they will let me disclose anything about their processes. I know that many of these companies are proud of how small their batch sizes really are, and some of them swear that you cannot make a great paint in large batches.

Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

Brian Firth
11-15-2006, 10:21 AM
The less expensive brands of oil paint often achieve the magic of a moderately priced Cadmium Yellow paint by blending the Cadmium with Permanent Yellow (PY65), or by precipitating the Cadmium with Barium Sulfate, another yellow pigment. In both cases, this produces a workable Cadmium that covers and mixes like a Cadmium, except that it has a bit less tinting power. For example, Grumbacher's Pre-tested line contains Cadmium-Barium pigments, while Shiva adds some PY65 to the mixture.




Barium sulfate isn't a yellow pigment. It's actually a white (in powder form) filler pigment that is used to bulk opaque pigments. Any cadmium pigment containing more than %15 barium sulfate must be labeled as Cadmium-Barium (also known as cadmium lithopone) and the color index number has a ":1" added, for instance Cadmium-Barium Red PR108:1. In my experience the difference between these cadmiums and the concentrated cadmium pigments is very hard to notice. I have both the concentrated cadmiums and the Pre-Tested and old Permanent Pigments cadmium-bariums and I really have trouble telling any difference. I would give a very slight edge in opacity and tinting strength to the concentrated cadmiums but it's nothing to brag about. Like I said before, the Grumbacher Cadmiums are a fantastic deal, at dickblick.com of course!

Added pigments, like the PY65 in the Shiva Cad Yellows, is OK as long as this is clearly disclosed on the packaging. Of course adding an organic pigment to the cadmiums will affect how they perform and I personally wouldn't knowingly buy a cadmium with an organic pigment added to it.

Also, I really appreciate the MSDS feature added to dickblick.com and have used it quite often!

gunzorro
11-15-2006, 11:59 AM
Howard -- it would be great to see some overall production and building front photos of Gamblin and Graham! We don't need anything that details propietary equipment or procedures, but it would be interesing to see the mills, mixers and tubing machines in place. :)
A few years ago I had the opportunity to tour the Da Vinci facility here in Southern California. The owners were very kind and showed me around personally. I was impressed with how much production they achieved in a relatively small industrial building. And when I witnessed the simplicity of their mixing procedures (the direct mixing of pigment and oil), I was quite a bit more impressed with their brand.
Some photos of the Oregon makers would only enhance their standings among the readers here.

Brian -- I'm not trying to say the Grumbacher paints are "bad", but when you tally up the additives, stabilzers and waxes, they have zero appeal to me in their current incarnation. Perhaps a new owner will boost them back up into an area of reasonable quality -- I would applaud them taking market share from WN. :) I have noticed these additives affecting the quality of the tints when mixed with other colors -- not to a disasterous degree, but noticable. Similarly, I wouldn't go out of my way to buy any Napthol reds, preferring Pyrol-type reds for stability and clean tinting.

alibluemoon
11-15-2006, 12:22 PM
Thank you everyone who has replied to this thread. Oil paints are still mysterious to me (as far as chem. composition) and I am trying to read as much as I can.

I am also very interested in what anyone has to say about what brands they prefer and why. When I started oil painting, I used Georgian oils...and they were sufficient for learning how to and how not to do things. Now I am buying "tester" tubes to experiment with higher quality paints.

I've purchased OH and Blockx and Fragonard and Sennelier and W&N. I've seen people talk about all of these brands except Pebeo's Fragonard. If anyone has used that one before, how has it worked for you?

Thanks!

Ali

Baroque01
11-15-2006, 01:02 PM
I've only used a small selection of oil paints and I'm biased as a result. But my perception is that Old Holland is a premium brand, Gamblin is more affordable and very popular. My favorite is M. Graham, but that might change if I ever branch out and try BlockX as I've been meaning to. I wish I could add more, but here goes:

Market Leader: Winsor and Newton

New Kid on the Block: M. Graham

Captive Brand: Gamblin

Brian Firth
11-15-2006, 01:09 PM
HBrian -- I'm not trying to say the Grumbacher paints are "bad", but when you tally up the additives, stabilzers and waxes, they have zero appeal to me in their current incarnation. Perhaps a new owner will boost them back up into an area of reasonable quality -- I would applaud them taking market share from WN. :) I have noticed these additives affecting the quality of the tints when mixed with other colors -- not to a disasterous degree, but noticable. Similarly, I wouldn't go out of my way to buy any Napthol reds, preferring Pyrol-type reds for stability and clean tinting.

Jim,
True, Grumbacher paints are not as pigment loaded as the higher brands, and therfore contain more fillers, but I do not agree that their paints are any duller or inferior in tint hues than other brands.

How have you isolated these additives as the cause of the perceived changes in the qualities of the tints? As far as I know, the formulas for all companies paints are proprietary and not public knowledge. So even knowing what, if any additives are present in the paints is not possible. Also, I would find it hard to believe that any other paint that is sold in tubes does not also contain these additives. Grumbacher paints actually sometimes harden in the tubes, which would give more credence to less fillers and stabilizer being used if one were to follow the "Twinkie" logic of Studio Products.

I find it hard to believe that inert fillers have a detrimental effect on the tints, when every singe pthalocyanine oil color ( as well as almost any other modern synthetic organic pigment) has a considerable amount of fillers and their tints are not the least bit negatively affected. Really, I have never seen any evidence of fillers and stabilizers actually affecting the tints of pigments. Weaken the intensity of the pure hue? Yes. Take more of the paint to obtain the same tint? Yes. But have an actual detrimental effect on the hue of the tints? No. If you look at alumina hydrate in oils, it is perfectly transparent. I would think that any differences you have noticed are due to pigment loading and specific pigment variations, not fillers or stabilizers. Possibly psychological prejudice is playing a role? With the incredibly large number of companies making the same pigments, each with their own individual characteristics, it is impossible to do fare comparisons based on the hue of tints. That is, unless you are absolutely sure that two brands are using the exact same pigment in the same color. I have done many comparisons between many Grumbacher paints and other brands which contain the same pigments and of all the differences, the hue of tints was not one.

I also prefer the pyrroles for their superior lightfastness and mixing, but in my opinion the naphthols do have brighter tints with white. Of course, Michael Harding currently offers naphthols and no pyrroles, but we wouldn't hold that against him. :)

Howard Metzenberg
11-15-2006, 01:44 PM
Many companies make the claim that their paints are all pigment and oil, no fillers. This is simply not true of any of them, including the Snob Paints. As Brian just pointed out, every single manufacturer tints down the Phthalo colors. Phthalo Blue would be simply overwhelming if it were not mixed with fillers.

What these manufacturers are doing is calling their fillers white pigments, which is in fact what they are. The usual filler is calcium carbonate, which is simply chalk. They are white pigments with low tinting strength, so that they have no effect on the overall tint. A lot of salts are white, but only a few (like titanium dioxide) have high tinting strength and all the other desirable properties you would want in a mixing pigment.

Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

donn_granros
11-15-2006, 02:14 PM
over the years I've used quite a few brands of paint. Probably my favorites are WN, Senneler and Shiva with Holbein's Transparent Black and Old Holland's Warm Gray added to the gestalt. I never thought a whole lot about fillers, tinting strength, pigment loads etal as it never seemed to matter much in my distinctly non limited pallette. Pick something close and mix it. Sometimes the lesser pigment loads of 'student grade' have been an asset not a deterent.

I have found though that using full pigment paint (not hues -or- student grade) does matter a lot more when I work with a traditional limited pallette. It seems that true, strong primary colors (Cadmium Red, Cadmium Yellow (and Orange, Ultramarine Blue) are a real asset in this area. I cannot get good results with a limited pallette using anything less than full pigment.

Artinthadark
11-15-2006, 06:14 PM
I use a combo platter of Gamblin stuff and Rembrandt...........it is what my art store carried when I started out painting again....I stuck with them........I like them, and see no reason to go looking around for something else until these go belly up.

Tracy

jdadson
11-16-2006, 03:30 AM
I never met a cadmium I didn't like, and that includes Grumbacher Pre-Tested with the Barium.

I have had some disappointing earth colors, the most recent a burnt sienna from Winsor Newton, which turned out to be PR101. I've just bought some Cennini earth colors. I haven't used them yet, but they have a wonderful texture. When you figure the difference in the sizes of the tubes, it only amounts to a 50% premium or so over the standard brands. So what the heck, I'll give them a go. The Cennini flake white handles very nicely. When I need more opacity, I use Grumbacher titanium white.

borodin
11-16-2006, 08:55 PM
Old Holland, OH, finally got it. They do have a very good selection and better yet they use the old names for colors, I like that.

There is another forum on WetCanvas that one is about what wine you like, as for me I like the Lafite-Rothschild (Pauillac), and Ports, alas as the OH out of my possibilities, but once a year, maybe, a nice Marques de Riscal (Rioja). OH and these – stuff.

Ciao,

Borodin

gunzorro
11-16-2006, 10:52 PM
Regarding OH -- start with the low series, they are pretty reasonably priced. Lots of earth colors and otherls like Ultramarine Blue. If you really look through their listings, I'm sure you can find items to fit your budget.
For the more expensive types, like cadmiums, stick to the lower priced brands for now and work your way toward the upper brands slowly. Yes, even Grumbacher. :)

borodin
11-20-2006, 07:45 PM
Thank you gunzorro a good suggestion, I know what hue and colors are, or rather I thought I knew. I see that there are now paints that say Cadmium Orange Hue what is the difference from plain Cadmium Orange?

Borodin:)

gunzorro
11-20-2006, 10:55 PM
That means there is no real Cad Orange present -- it is a "substitute" usually made with cheaper pigments, but sometimes it can be simply a different qualtiy pigment, like Pyrol Orange, but not often and not in lower priced brands. Same with "tone". So if you see a paint with these terms it is usually best to avoid, unless you investigate and see that it is something you really want.
Even if it is a quality pigment used in a "hue" or "tone", it will not behave the same when you start mixing it with other colors. In the OH line, non-genuine colors are listed as "extra" as in "Naples Yellow Deep Extra" that means it is a mix of pigments that approximate the shade of genuine toxic lead-antimony Naples Yellow Deep, but it is not the real thing, if that is what you were looking for. Same for "Alizarin Crimson Extra" -- it is a "hue" that approximates the real semi-permanent Alizarin. It doesn't equate to "bad" in these cases, just non-genuine, and usually done for the sake of toxicity or lightfastness in the OH line.
If you can, steer away from the word "hue" in the lower priced brands.

turlogh
11-21-2006, 08:36 AM
Thank you gunzorro a good suggestion, I know what hue and colors are, or rather I thought I knew. I see that there are now paints that say Cadmium Orange Hue what is the difference from plain Cadmium Orange?
"Hue" colors are imitations using cheaper pigments. A cadmium orange hue doesn't have any cadmium orange in it. Typically, these paints are a decent match for the original in masstone (the color when the paint is laid on thickly) but are often different in undertone (the color when applied in a thin layer), opacity, covering power, tinting strength, and mixing characteristics. Some people get used to the properties of a particular "hue" color and come to prefer it over the original.

chrissycream
11-23-2006, 07:44 AM
as far as brand loyalty goes, I am pretty much a mutt. I have certain lines I promote for personal reasons like value, color, quality, but own a wide range of brands. I'm always looking for the Holy Grail of each and every color. I have no financial interests in art materials manufacturing or sales, and unfortunatley am not receiving any free materials from any manufacturers. Damn! I'd be happy to try things, but thus far I've financed my own collection. :)

Hi gunzorro,

In your opinion, what's the holy grail of each color? I am curious!!

chrissycream
11-23-2006, 07:53 AM
btw I am gonna have my first oil paint lesson tomorrow, so I went shopping and bought 8 maimeri classico in Cerulean blue, Ultramarine deep, Cadmuim red light, Yellow Ochre, Golden Ochre, Payne's Grey, Burnt sienna and Burnt umber; 4 maimeri puro in Titanium white, Primary red, Cadmium yellow and Hooker's green. What do you guys think??

gunzorro
11-23-2006, 12:46 PM
As I've said here, I love Maimeri. Classico is my top choice for student grade paint. Puro is at or near the top of all paints. There is quite a difference in quality between the two Maimeri products, but they will work together fine and I'm sure you will be happy. I am glad you bought the two different types and hope you can see for yourself the differences are in color, handling, blending and strength.

The "Holy Grail" for me is what brand provides the penultimate paint for a specific color or blend of colors. (I am not a single pigment snob, although I prefer single pigments on most occasions)
Some of my Holy Grail searches have lead me to less expensive brands to choose my favorites, for example Rembrandt fares very well with me in Ultramarine Blue Deep and Raw Sienna. I find those particular paints to be some of my favorites among all brands. Having said that, I love OH Ultramarine Blue Light and enjoy its thicker consistency and tinting strength. And Puro makes two outstanding versions of Raw Sienna.
Both Doak and Studio Products make a Ruby Pyrol that is virtually identical and the absolute best transparent red I have ever used -- a real pure red. I need search no further and can see no room for improvement.
Blockx makes my favorite Titanium White, Yellow Ochre and even Chromium Green Oxide (Lamoriniere Green), (cobalt) Turquoise Green, among a number of others faves.
It looks like Puro is my strong favorite for Cadmiums and Cobalts -- but there are still many stones left unturned among other makers!
So, the jury is still out, but my choices are narrowing to fewer and fewer ultimate candidates.
The "Holy Grail" is the individual paint that would make all other brand's offerings of the same paint irrelevant and redundant. Is there such a thing? The search goes on! :)
This is an opinion-laced area and I don't expect everyone will agree with my Holy Grail pantheon. :)

borodin
11-27-2006, 02:23 PM
This is an opinion-laced area and I don't expect everyone will agree with my Holy Grail pantheon. :)
Yes, why not, if this is your quest! Painting is still expanding, and I mean painting as on canvas (or other backing, wood, etc.) with oils or water colors on paper not other mediums or channels. It began when the first of our kind, first painted something on the walls of a cave, and what paint it must be to still be there after millennia. Will the new paints be as durable? Or will they crack, peal, and fall away to leave rotten cotton or linen cloth behind? Will you include this in your quest – Durability, durability of color, durability of resiliency (elasticity)? I have seen many paintings old and new, good and bad, many invaluable and many incomprehensible (to me) and many that have sold for their weight in gold many times over. Somewhere in our discussion someone spoke about the effects of our quality of environment, to name one: Smog, how will the new latex, water color, and oil-based paints perform over the long run, the long run? Hundreds of years would be the long run to me, how long should a Master work last?

Borodin

TinaD
11-27-2006, 03:58 PM
how long should a Master work last?

Borodin

If they are cave paintings in the south of france...20,000 years at least..and they didn't even have OH!:lol:

borodin
11-27-2006, 09:40 PM
If they are cave paintings in the south of france...20,000 years at least..and they didn't even have OH!:lol:

My reference was to those paintings that are on canvas, Cotton or Linen or wood, etcetera, painters such as Da Vinci, Rubens, Titian, Van Gogh, and all the rest. Several paintings have disappeared only to reappear years later under another painting, done in supposition by those who stole it in the first place and the painting over the masterwork is as valuable as the stolen work. These have been floated off the masterwork and onto other canvas, but with damage to both, this would be another how long should these paintings last. And in reference to “Which Oil Paint Brand Do YOU Recommend? . . ,” my position is that our newer (modern) paints should be more lasting than those before, or do we know?

How long will OH last?

Sincerely,

Borodin:)

h20il
11-29-2006, 11:14 AM
I think Borodin is right, how long will OH last? But the newer paints will certainly take a long time to gain people's trust so OH will still last for at least probably another 40 years. But here are my favorites:
1. Michael Harding (Awesome for it's price)
2. PURO
3. OH (Highest quality)
4. Mussini
5. M. Graham (Good Alkyd White, I like its binder)
6. Williamsburg
7. Norma
8. Daniel Smith
9. LUKAS artists (It's sooooo cheap!)
10. Gamblin
Oh, Has any1 heard of Maimeri Restoration paints? What are the quality?

borodin
11-29-2006, 12:06 PM
I would at least want my self appraised master paintings to last no less than five hundred years. So that I would be acclaimed a master, and my paintings sell for millions, but unfortunately I would be an unknown master – I never sign my master pieces, when asked who painted them I can always blame someone else.

In hicksville USA, there are only Grumbacher and WNewton and they are not bad. I will try to purchase some of the least expensive of the OH as gunzorro suggested.

As in all things there is always a very definite difference, between quality and utility, I sometimes make furniture such as a desk or chair etcetera and use laquer to finish and Syerlack is by far the best and most expensive and when I use it I finish in half the time when I cannot use it the others are well troublesome to say the least.

Borodin:-)

Jennifer Bernard
11-29-2006, 12:41 PM
I like W&N as a standard regular, all round type paint. it's consistent,and I know what I am getting/what to expect from them. and I like Gamblin,and Grumbacher pre-tested too. BUT there are some other very seductive brands out there, one I love is Maimeri puro and classico. they are fantastic.

I have some 'oil sticks' by R&F that are superb, and Sennelier, too that are good.

W&N is getting pricey. I am disapointed in this, very, very much. I may switch soon completely over to Maimeri or something similar, as it's not worth the high prices, (and if it's So high, I would honestly pay just a tad more for something better. if that makes sense.)

I just moved over to Athens, Greece. I am having a really hard time finding any brands I am happy with, and I really don't like 'switching brands' when I am used to what a paint does and what to expect from a certain brand. so right now I'm in art hell. LOL
I've been using Daler-Rowney 'Georgian' oils lately-
sorry if this offends anyone, but, I am very disapointed in these, and can NOT reccomend them at all!
Unless, you are a student, or using them for practise or studies,et....

p.s. Can anyone in the EU /and or Greece specifically reccomend someplace I can order paint?

kazucks
11-29-2006, 12:56 PM
Well I have used many different brands of paint over the years and this seems like a fun game to play. That being from your own experience, rate the brands in order of quality-

1.Old Holland-the multitude of different pigments with wonderful execution of each.
2. Williamsburg-Earth colors are to die for. Exquisite formulation of paint with great integrity.
3. Blockx-Wonderful line, exquisite handling properties
4. Schminke-Mussini-Very high quality cadmiums, beautiful handling paint
5. Natural Pigments-Some very hard to get pigments with great integrity in formulation.
6. Windsor Newton-their cads, rose dore, and glazing pigments are still great
7. Rembrandt-Earth colors are quite interesting, nice line.
8. Sennelier-can be quite good. There are many interesting pigments here
9. Gamblin-lots of knowledge and integrity here
10. David Davis- small manufacturer attempting to make quality paint, cads are pure but set up in tubes. Maybe better now.
11. Daniel Smith-Nice line, wide variety, some pigments available that others don't offer.
12. Holbein-like some of the colors.

Note-have only used titanium white from Puro otherwise no experience with them. Have not used Graham, no experience with them. Have not used Michael Harding. Have old tubes of Grumbacher, Permanent Pigments, Van Gogh, LeFranc and B. which we won't talk about.

Well I don't know that the list speaks to anything other than my personal preference, but I somehow feel unburdened. :wave:

donn_granros
11-29-2006, 02:09 PM
Well.. I might as well jumo into the pond too:

Winsor-Newton.. my staple. wonderful transparents, especially their Transparent White.
Sennelier.. nice handling paint with a good color selection
Shiva.. Not an expensive paint but I like the oil content in their paints, the consistency, colors -and- quality. It is quietly becoming a favorite.
Art Spectrum.. good stuff, quite a bit like Shiva
Gamblin, Old Holland, Holbein.. High quality. Like Gamblin Quick Dry white, Holbein's Transparent Black and Old Holland's wonderful Warm Gray

This is Donn Granros and I approved this message

Marc Kingsland
11-29-2006, 03:12 PM
Oh, Has any1 heard of Maimeri Restoration paints? What are the quality?

Maimeri Restoration paints are intended for restoration work only.
The binder is formulated so that it is still dissolvable (ie removed) in solvents after they have dried.
The current general view in art conservation (in oil paintings at least) is that any inpainting to replace areas of lost paint from a work should be easily removed, should this be required.

borodin
11-29-2006, 04:02 PM
p.s. Can anyone in the EU /and or Greece specifically reccomend someplace I can order paint?

I have been all over the internet, and Dick Blick has by far the best prices and selection they will be able to send what you want to Greece, but get a customs authorization first, also you can try the [email protected] asking for information from the commerce bureau or the Italian embassy, etc. I have always found the embassies to be very helpful in other matters, why not this.

Borodin :wave:

Jennifer Bernard
11-29-2006, 05:43 PM
Hi Borodin,
I've been ordering almost all of my supplies from Blick for many years, almost exclusively.Guess there's no reason to stop now, LOL
BUT sometimes shipping, and or customs headaches tend to make me hesitate. I would much rather be able to buy locally. especially if I run out of something, or have something come up suddenly that I need something for.
Also, sorry but international shipping for a lot of products at once (heavy) is really high at times, and I don't want to have to always pay this.:(

oh well.
will think of something...in the meantime, will just order my 'staples' from Blick as usual.

I got tiny little tubes of Maimeri samples from Blick a few years ago... I wonder if they still do this with some of the other brands- with my situation, I'd like to experiement and try, but since i'm having big shipping to pay, can't blow a lot of money on 'trial' paint right now.

All of these things ultimately effect the cost of my paintings- which I do not like to have to pass onto my clients.
:(

borodin
11-29-2006, 07:37 PM
To: AthensArtist

You might try sending an email to this person in Athens, who may possibly be able to help with the paints and other things. Fellow artists and all that.

[email protected]

Sincerely,

Borodin :)

Jennifer Bernard
11-30-2006, 01:20 AM
Thanks borodin, but who is this person? is it a WC member or something?
What's thier name? not a bad idea, but I kind of would like to know who it is before I go begging for help /pestering them, LOL

borodin
11-30-2006, 10:40 AM
AthensArtist

The person is an agent for a very well known Greek painter, I do not know if it is a gentleman or a lady, but there would be no harm in contact, the worse that could happen would be – No I cannot help; that I do not think will happen. No, they are not members of WetCanvas. Ask and see what they say.

Good Luck.

Borodin

dlake
11-30-2006, 07:58 PM
Hi. this is a good place for me to begin.
I have taken up oils and only posted one once. I am currently trying to just concentrate of learning and growing first.
My problem is that there are no art stores in my area. With xmas coming up I want to get some oils. When I first started I got some rembrandts and W&N really cheap at a craft store going out of biz. I purchased some tubes of Williamsburg because of the earth tones which I use alot of. I don't like those. I like the rembrandts and W&N. The williamsburg reminds me of using wet clay or mud. and very grainy.
I have this cheapie set of shinhan which is fine for teens or students.
I am looking at about 5 brands.
May I ask your input?????
anyone please help me. I am planning on getting a list together for xmas.
Mameri: Puro and Classico
Sennelier
Schmincke: Norma and Mussini
Chroma Archival oils
Art spectrum
I want something with creamy, easy going style. Good pigment and depth and not really glossy or flat.
I do alot of European like France or Italy scenes. earthy.
cool building, great landscape, bright sun, aged and deep looks to it.
I'd really apppreciate the help.

h20il
11-30-2006, 11:52 PM
I have this cheapie set of shinhan which is fine for teens or students.
I am looking at about 5 brands.
May I ask your input?????
anyone please help me. I am planning on getting a list together for xmas.
Mameri: Puro and Classico
Sennelier
Schmincke: Norma and Mussini
Chroma Archival oils
Art spectrum
I want something with creamy, easy going style. Good pigment and depth and not really glossy or flat.
I do alot of European like France or Italy scenes. earthy.
cool building, great landscape, bright sun, aged and deep looks to it.
I'd really apppreciate the help.
Ok, I think the brands I recommend are:
Maimeri Classico and Puro, Mussini, and M. Graham, all great! You can buy all of these at dickblick and I don't recommend Sennelier or Chroma Archival, they are little rip offs. Oh, and do you consider shin han to be artists grade? Also I think you should get M. Graham Alkyd and Walnut oil for your mediums(Diluent free!)
I hope this helps!

gunzorro
12-01-2006, 12:44 AM
Of your choices the tops are the Puro (Classico is student grade) and Mussini (Norma is a lesser grade, non-resin paint). Both have an outstanding range, including excellent smooth earth colors.
I would suggest Art Spectrum for the colors that would be excessively expensive in the above brands. Art Spectrum is a surprisingly good line of paint, especially for the money. I am very happy with their Cadmiums, Cobalts and Cerulean -- all genuine. (The "Spectrum" sub-set is all hues)
I suppose I'm becoming a broken record, but, at the risk of irritating everyone here -- Puro is currently my favorite maker of the Cad, Cobalts and Cerulean -- super strong tinting and ultra-vivid.

dlake
12-01-2006, 09:48 PM
thank you so much both of you.
I'm glad that Art Spec. is pretty good workhorse type. When I did pastels I really liked them for thier tinting and colors.
I am intrigued by the golden lake in the puros
and have been leaning to both Schminckes
After posting last night and in frustration with not being able to see and touch the paints (hate living in a place without art stores! lol)
I stumbled across Daniel Smith's site and decided to peek at the oils by them.
what intriguing colors!
But, I'm thinking for xmas I will order some schminckes and art specs and the berlin blue and golden lake and a few of the puros.
Do you guys concider the classico's any good???
Oh, and thanks for the heads up on the Sennelier and the Chromas. will stay away.
As for Shinhan, I had no idea what they were like or if they were student. I kinda thought they might be due to price but, I was checking out some paint. I really hate them. they are so insipid and dull. no depth and kinda looks like acrylics. I already paint acrylics and wanted to do oils. I like it but, it's not much fun without some great colors and paint.

h20il
12-02-2006, 12:32 AM
Classico is what I consider the BEST student grade paint there is available! And I'm not saying that Sennelier and Chroma are bad, it's just that Sennelier is just a little better than Grumbacher, and Chroma isn't really permanent as they say it is.

perryjohnson
12-02-2006, 12:48 AM
I rarely post, but I do have a question about the Puro line. I've never used them but I have heard they are oily. I don't mind if some oil separates. That's not what I mean. Are they a soft paint? My paint application isn't excessively thick or pasty but I want the freedom to choose the consistency of my paint with mediums. I know I could squeeze the paint onto blotting paper, but that's not something I want to do on a regular basis.

h20il
12-02-2006, 12:52 AM
It is true that they are pretty oily, but then the Schmincke brand doesn't feel as oily, but old holland is pretty stiff compared to other brands, actually I don't really think Art Spectrum is oily, it's kind of different from the top brands, hope this helps!

dlake
12-02-2006, 03:04 AM
I had heard that Maimeri was oily quite abit. Not just creamy.
Blick's is out of Schmincke Norma. All of it. No colors left. I was looking at them last night and they were there and then, today, gone.
I have a cart saved of Art Spectrum. I might go ahead with that.
But, first, what about Daniel Smith? I thought they looked interesting but, are they worth it???
I checked M. Grahams and they don't have much for colors.
Anyway, I really appreciate the help. I have been painting but, not finishing because the paint I have is so unsatisfying. It was okay while I learned but, now, with a painting......

gunzorro
12-02-2006, 11:38 AM
Perry -- I would characterize the Puro line as soft and creamy, just bordering on "soupy". Great for direct application painting. But -- some are quite oily with oil seperation, particularly the heavy metals due to excessive lack of stabilizers and fillers, and I surmise the safflower/poppy oil is lighter and just leaks through every molecular crack. :) Several of the cadmium reds I have are oily and I use newspaper or paper towel to absorb before using, but the whole line of paint is NOT this way. The payoff is that Puro colors are incredible and worth the tiny bit if fiddling with a few pigments.

H2Oil -- I agree, Classico is the top of the student paints and could be used by pros needing large amounts of paint.

dlake -- I would skip the Berlin Blue, which is a phthalo blue. The Golden Lake is amazing. The Faience Blue is a gorgeous Indanthrene Blue -- I'd try that for a different deep blue. The King's Blue versions are made with cobalt blue, not the more common Ultramarine Blue -- great light blues for mixing.
Smith is okay paint and some are terrific, especially the no longer produced Autograph series (a few tubes still left on the web site by seaching Autograph Oil). Otherwise they tend to be slightly less pigmented than you might want. I continue to order oils from Smith, so draw your own conclusions from my seeming contradictory statement. :)
To get started, I would suggest ordering the high series colors (genuine cadmiums, cobalts and cerulean) from Art Spectrum where they cost less (also easier to experiment with various lower series colors due to low price). I would then order a few tubes each (3-5) of the Puro and Mussini lines in the lower to mid series range so you can get a representative sample of their characteristics. Mix it up -- a few transparent and opaque of each line.
I have much of the paint selection of the Puro (about 1/2) and Mussini (about 2/3) product lines and about 1/2 the AS line, so I could show you a few sample colors if you like.
If you would like any other suggestions or opinions, let me know -- I've got a million of them! :)

dlake
12-02-2006, 12:35 PM
Oh, thanks alot. I am flying blind here. I wish I could go and see them. That's one of the pluses of WC!
I have the Spectrums in a cart saved at asw. So, I'll go with those. I really liked them as pastels so I know the colors of alot of them already.
Thier naples yellow was a cream yellow and very yummy.
Now I can have some direction and if I decide to upgrade later I know which to look at. For now I just want some reliable, good workhorse stuff.

gunzorro
12-02-2006, 05:08 PM
Smart thinking.
If you don' tmind the suggestion, here are a few AS colors you might not think of trying, but I find outstanding: 1) Italian Pink -- a beautiful transparent gold color that tints whites to an great warm yellow. 2) Australian Red Gold -- not a replacement for the Puro Golden Lake, but a great transparent orange/rust color, 3) Golden Yellow -- a lovely semi-transparent rich yellow.
AS is not my favorite in the earths, and I would suggest you pick a few tubes of Williamsburg for any of these: Earth Green (opaque, not "green earth"), Bohemian Green Earth, Spanish Earth (a dark purplish overtone), Raw Sienna (domestic), Yellow Ochre (domestic), Lemon Ochre, Pompeii Red and perhaps Mars Violet.
Mussini would also be an excellent choice for smoother consistency earth colors. WB are slightly gritty by design -- but beautiful colors either brand.

h20il
12-02-2006, 08:18 PM
Williamsburg makes the best earth colours there is, and Dlake, the Daniel Smith brand is top of the line! I think it is considered just as good as Williamsburg, M. Graham, Puro etc., and the paint is not really oily, although I don't own any my teacher let me try it and it is one of my favorites, another student quality paint is the Lukas studio range, it is very good for its price, a lot of people say it is above student and lower than artists but you can't prove that though... And Art Spectrum is certainly a very good brand, great choice! Although I would use Maimeri Classico for some earth colours.

dlake
12-02-2006, 10:16 PM
Newsflash:: I found Schmincke Mussini for a wicked low price at Allied art store. Oh my. Like the flesh tone is 5.00 and not 11.00 like everywhere else. Not all the colors but, enough to make a person happy. Now, I gotta decide if I want to do most schmincke or spectrum. hmmmmmm. with classico I heard was super oily. But, I may pick up a few tubes with my art spec order.
Gunz, I have all the colors you recommended in my cart right now. hahaha. Great minds and all that.
I do not like Williamsburg. Too much like clay or mud. I have it and I cannot use it. It's so thick. heavy. I have tubes put away of them.
I like the consistency of Rembrandts. I have some tubes and love them but, I just need to try some other brands to find which is right for me. I was so hoping Sennelier but, You say they are kinda crappy.

h20il
12-02-2006, 10:25 PM
Art Spectrum vs. Mussini? No contest, Mussini! And the OH paints on that site are also very cheap, don't get discouraged by my bad comment about sennelier, my teacher loves sennelier and hates the brands I like for some reason, Sennelier could be used thickly or thinly because it contains medium amount of oil, but still, Mussinin for that low of a price? Get it! But since that website doesn't have a lot of paint, you could also go with Daniel Smith.

dlake
12-02-2006, 10:32 PM
It is not your comment. I've read other ones as well. I did some research on old threads and people were split mostly. But, then they raved about williamsburg and I don't like them- hahahah. I do plan on the schmincke. get the ones on blick that allied doesn't have. I have been kinda going back and forth between the two schmincke brands and the sennelier. But, after the remarks on posts I was thinking either norma or mussini. However, Spectrum has some really fun colors and the price. what the formula like?
and the fun colors in the daniel smith. again posts are split on that one too. It's why it's so confusing to those of us starting out.
thanks!

h20il
12-02-2006, 10:41 PM
dlake, I did not really get your question, what are the formula like for what? Yeah, art spectrum has unique colours, another brand you should avoid based on your requirements is M. Graham, although I love it, it is oily. The Mussini brand is superior to the norma brand but you can use norma for less important earth colours and white, and if you use it, black. It is confusing for everyone to think about materials, isn't it. But my fave is Michael Harding, very cheap for its awesome quality! Used by famous artists like David Hockney, they could be found at italianartstore which stocks some very good brushes.

h20il
12-02-2006, 10:54 PM
Ok, I am not going to confuse you anymore, I have a headache from talking about all these brands, ok, Mussini, Norma, and Art Spectrum are on the top of the list, and the AS 3 colour trial set is awesome value!

dlake
12-02-2006, 11:07 PM
sorry. questons. oh. I just went to daniel smith and built a personal palette. it was fun. the colors are so yummy!

h20il
12-03-2006, 07:22 PM
Cool! Can you tell me the colours you built? Did you order anything yet?

dlake
12-03-2006, 08:45 PM
I am down to 3 brands for concideration. the reason for the hair pulling is 2 fold. 1. I spent $$ on williamsburg and shinhan and haven't been happy. cannot afford another mistake. 2. It's my xmas present so I'm getting alot and need to be sure I get something I'll be happy with. I've mulled being safe and just getting W & N and the heck with getting something special but....
plus I was painting awesome clouds in my painting and it's so hard with weak colors like the shin hans. no fun.
Schmincke: at allied art store I can get the mussini for so much less than anywhere. super cheap. not the full palette but alot of colors to choose from so it's super tempting.

Art Spectrum: I liked the pastels and they have really great colors.

Daniel Smith: I really like the color choices and they seem to be good. My palette I built had colors like tere ercoloano, potter pink, coral, moonglow, minnesota pipe, burgundy yellow. these are just some of the odd ball ones. I have like 20 colors picked and have reg. like buff, hansa, naples, magenta, meddeterainian (sp?)_ blue, verna gold, ect.
It's probably going to be a coin toss between the D. Smith and the Schmincke. I urge to you check out the allied art store. You won't believe the prices. They have blocx at an obscenely low price as well.

h20il
12-03-2006, 09:00 PM
If you are not sure about some brands you should probably order some sample tubes(if they have one), but if you already have a preferred brand on a previous medium, then I suggest you get Art Spectrum, because you already know what the brand is like, but you should order DS or Schmincke if the paint is not that expensive, although paints like cadmiums and stuff are really needing of a good brand, Art Spectrum is still one of the best oil paints there is! I checked out that website yesterday, Blockx is actually considered a stiff pigment loaded paint but i wouldn't want to change your mind after all that hard work!
Yes! Ordering a lot of paint in first try is the way to go, because you can then limit yourself based on the colours you like and sell the rest of the paint, at least you gained a lot of experience about color. Oh, and the Autograph series are still there(some of them), so search for them in the website and in the last page of the search titled Autograph Series, buy the paint that you can, they are about the same price since they are discontinued!

dlake
12-03-2006, 09:16 PM
I think I may already figured out which way to go.
I would have done daniel smith but, for the reports of weak coloring.
With the prices of the schmincke I think I will go that way. and pick some of the green and brown at blicks.
Schmincke and sennelier were the gold standard in pastels. OH in acrylics. No one in oils. at least as far as I can see. But, I am looking for good color and consistency and not anything designer. I think that's why I elimated puros and blocxx.
Plus the fact that schmincke dries quicker. No aklyd adds or waiting for a few days sometimes. Just a bit of turp and that's all. That will be fun.
Went to Pearlpaint for a last browse and did not notice before they had the normas. I put my list in the cart. They were pretty good prices for those and a good selection. so, I made my cart and the price came out wonderful. Plus I have some green and reds in W & N and rembrandt from that closeout sale.
have the cart saved and will show to my husband that this is what he is getting me and then I'll buy it tomorrow and hope it will be here soon. So excited!

Howard Metzenberg
12-04-2006, 03:35 AM
Diane,

I was astonished at the kind of prices that you mentioned for Schmincke Mussini Oils. I thought I had heard of every site on the Internet that sells art supplies. I check them all regularly, not only to be aware of competitive prices, but also to see if any are stealing our images or other intellectual property (it happens all the time!). But this is one that I had never seen before.

I googled Allied Art Store, and came up with a site in Philadelphia. The prices were unbelievably low, although on a very limited range of materials. Indeed, they had several items for sale at below our cost at Blick Art Materials.

I think you have come upon the equivalent of a ghost town from the Internet boom of the Clinton years. I looked at their Alexa rank (www.alexa.com), and it was 5,451,362. Alexa is a free service, owned by Amazon, that gives you a proxy for how much traffic a site is receiving. This site is receiving almost no traffic at all. According to Alexa, the site went online (or was picked up for the first time by an Alexa user) on Dec 30, 2001. Alexa actually started in mid 2001, so it's likely that the site had already been there for years.

I looked at the software and web architecture of the site, and I checked with a web tool called Netcraft (www.netcraft.com) that is used by web developers to gather technical information about a site (where it is, what netblock it is on, who else is on the netblock, who is administering the server, what server it is, etc.). The site is set up with a software/server configuration that is more than five years old.

I zillowed the location of Allied Art Store (www.zillow.com). Zillow provides free valuation and property tax information for residential real estate. The store turns out to be in a block of residential, multi-family row houses in northeast Philadelphia, in a neighborhood where the typical single family residence has an assessed value of less than 75K. There appeared to be no retail stores on the street or in the area. The server itself was located in Bedford, Texas, but that means nothing.

I looked at Allied Art Store's site (www.alliedartstore.com). I did find that they had copied something from Dick Blick (the Sennelier Oil Sticks color chart). I don't think I'll even bother to write a letter to the owner. If he still lives in northeast Philadelphia, he's got enough to worry about.

I looked at Allied's easel section, and they were offering several easels from Mabef that were discontinued many years ago. Some of the images from other vendors were also old, showing packaging that is years out of date.

When old websites get abandoned, they can hang around for years in glorious neglect. The service provider may not clean the site off its disk drives, since disk drive space is almost free (if it is not needed by a paying customer). DNS entries may hang around for years too, since many companies pay for names up to ten years in advance to get a discount on website name registration.

I would encourage you to call the Allied Art Store toll free number to see if this company is still active. I expect you'll find that the number is disconnected, or that it has long since passed into someone else's hands.

My apologies for the fact that we completely ran out of Schmincke Norma Oils this last week. They were on promotion. Earlier in this thread, I spoke about the "brand position" of various companies. Schmincke is an example of one that fell into disgrace, and now is making a great comeback as a premium brand.

Howard Metzenberg
Dick Blick Art Materials
Highland Park, IL

dlake
12-04-2006, 09:10 AM
Howard, I am soooo happy to talk to you. I did not go with that site. Right now on my final selections I have a cart saved at Pearl paint and one at Blicks. I actually have been looking close at Blicks due to your prices and that I am a long time customer.
I love your site. I always get my stuff within 2 days.
I wanted to order the Schmincke Norma's from you guys but, there are none left. That is why I was looking elsewhere for schmincke.
I actually emailed you guys last week for suggestions and after some research on the brands recommended I had decided to go with schmincke and darn! out of stock. sigh.......

h20il
12-04-2006, 11:13 AM
Oh, and the schmincke mussini oils from italianartstore.com is the cheapest I can find next to allied art store, which the flesh tint is 9.95 compared to blick, Pearl paint isn't the cheapest there is but it has good service. Italianartstore also sells sennelier, Michael Harding, Da Vinci, Gamblin etc.

number19
12-04-2006, 11:31 PM
I am currently using Blockx oil paints. The Italian Art Store has the best prices for those paints that I've been able to find - by a large margin. In addition their customer service has been very good. - Jack

dlake
12-05-2006, 12:00 AM
I just found out that Blicks got hit by someone mean who scammed them and punched up all the normas and then entered a bad card to pay. It took till today to fix it. Yea!
I told my husband about it and put it on the cart so he just has to hit the button. Plus about the coupon expiring in couple days.
I really wanted the normas. They seemed so reasonable and knowing the quality of schmincke from pastels I liked that. and Blick's prices were great. I was so upset they were sold out. But, now they have them and that is what I hope my hubby buys tomorrow. I also have a puro golden lake in there as well. couldn't resist.
I hope he buys them tomorrow or I will. I'm almost out of paint and the ones I have drive me crazy. no coverage and I end up screaming ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
I saw they were rated really high as well.
thanks so very much. I'll let you know if he gets them or I do. They will be out of my cart by tomorrow night...(wicked smile)

h20il
12-05-2006, 12:11 AM
Yay!!! So are you buying the normas and the mussinis or just the norma?

dlake
12-05-2006, 12:38 AM
Mostly Normas with a couple of Mussini's in for fun. I just find the Mussini's too expensive for my level right now. As I go along I will add more to them depending on how I like them. But, I really feel I will. I just know the quality from pastels. they made these creamy soft pastels in gorgeous colors.
I'd like to eventually get to having a good amount of the Mussini as they dry faster than other oils and so, I can paint more and not worry about alkyd and stuff.
If Rod gets them tomorrow (or me) I'll have them in 2 days. I always get my stuff from Blicks in 2 days.

h20il
12-05-2006, 12:44 AM
Wow it really is a race isn't it! Awesome choice of paint, several days ago, I ordered from blick and italianartstore at about the same time to see which ships faster, and blick beat italianartstore by about 2 minutes(So they are both great)! And I do not like alkyds, they handle all wierd.
What would be really funny is that you 2 both order it at the same time, and your husband has to cancel his order after all that hard work of puttomg stuff into the cart.:evil:

dlake
12-05-2006, 12:55 AM
I use liquin off and on. Not very much as it's a pain. I like to just paint. I want so bad to push the buy now button. grrrrrr. I really need to get better paint.
I am use to using good acrylics and so, now that I've practiced with oils I am so ready for a decent paint. It's great for getting used to things but, painting a picture is horrid.
I use so much just to do stuff. paint a sky.
I like the prices for some things at Italian. My brother gets brushes there, and the Mussini is great price. I also saw some canvases pretty nice.
I've been jumping around on canvas because I used the Watercolor by Fredrix. I loved it. But, they say not to use for oils. I'm thinking of trying the greenlable or Masterpeice linen. Right now I have some Blick ones.

gunzorro
12-05-2006, 02:28 AM
dlake -- great that you have this ordering worked out, and that you are getting a nice selection of brands to try. You won't regret that Puro Golden Lake! :))
********
Something has been nagging me about an earlier comment I made about Daniel Smith paints. I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking Smith paints are not excellent or highly pigmented. They are very nice. They are slightly less pigmented than OH, Mussini and Blockx, all of which have a reputation as being incredibly well-pigmented. These premium European makers set a high mark, and their prices usually reflect their uber-quality. Smith paint is more reasonably priced, and I still insist it is a great bargain.
I just received my latest order from Smith today. I was a small order, but I would like to relay what I found. I ordered several Autograph colors that were still in stock -- a couple replacement tubes of Raw Umber Violet, which I find superb; and new to me from the Smith Autograph line -- Viridian and Prussian Blue -- both outstanding. New to me from the current production were the Sleeping Beauty Turquoise (amazing creamy light blue and holds its color very well in white mixes), Moonglow (a beauty) and Naphthamide Maroon (a terrific and unique red-purple). All these colors are outstanding, and some unique.
After I did some test mixes this afternoon, and was uniformily pleased with the results, I thought about what I had been saying earlier regarding tinting strength maybe not being up to par with Smith. I carefully reviewed the Smith color charts and found that each and every color I had a complaint with was clearly shown in the charts to be a weak tinting pigment! :) Things like Minnesota Pipestone, Lapis, Burgundy Yellow Ochre -- all part of the unique colors Smith puts together. I suppose I should have studied the charts showing the mixed tints in white a little better, or believed them more! They are accurate.
Sometimes a weak tinting color is exactly what is called for. No one complains about Cobalt Violets. No one should buy Cobalt Violet expecting it to perform like Diox Purple!
My apologies if my comments lead anyone to suspect Smith is not a quality paint maker. Read the published information from Smith -- it is quite reliable. :)

dlake
12-05-2006, 07:52 AM
Oh, no problem. I do plan to get a few because of the unique colors. curiosity. I don't understand about the autograph. I have been at the site and they have Original oils listed but, not autograph. But, I really want to try the Minn. pipe and the moonglow and violet umber and burgundy yellow. They also have a set of quindrones that look nice.
I ordered a cataloge from them so I'll see.
I am so glad they have the tinting of something equal to rembrandt or W & N.
I choose Normas because I know schmincke is a good name and they are a reasonable price. They seem like a working paint. price is about equal to rembrandts and seem a good paint. I am not at a level where I feel i can justify buying Puros or Mussinis yet. But, I had to splurge on the golden lake. Ah, a b-day present for me. hahaha.
I got good basic colors for Normas and still had to skimp on some colors but, I figure I can add those and a few fun ones with the smith paints. I do alot of earthy colors because of what I like to paint but, lately, in practice I've done alot of skies and small landscapes. I do alot of village scenes in France (my mom is from there) so I use alot of earth tones for buildings.

kazucks
12-05-2006, 08:27 AM
It is interesting to me that different consistencies of paint are important to different kinds of usage. Some have described Williamsburg as gritty or like mud and too dry and not creamy enough, etc. This may well have to do with the simple (clean) usage of pure pigment and linseed oil without additives (after all many of the earth pigments are dirt). For my taste, I have always appreciated dryer very highly pigmented paints like Old Holland and Williamsburg because I work in layers and frequently into wet cushions of mediums. Therefore I have really appreciated the high pigment loading of the premium paints and the absence of other contaminants since I like to control what gets added to my paint layers.

If you are a painter that uses few mediums with the paints, you may well appreciate some of the creamier cuts of paint like Schminke Mussini, Blockx, even some of the Windsor Newton paints. For me, creamy paints may tip the balance of viscosity and make them too runny since I use wet cushions of mediums in my layering.

Referring back to some previous entries in this thread, the answer to which paint is better has to do alot with how you use it. What ground are you working on, oil grounds are slipperier than acrylic grounds, mediums are sometimes added to the paint, or painted on as wet cushions, or dipped with the paint. Some just paint alla prima so the viscosity of the actual tube paint is what they end up getting (along with the ground combination).

It is great that we live in a time when there are so many fine choices available to suit the procedural methodology of the painter including his choice of supplementary materials.

Jennifer Bernard
12-06-2006, 09:53 AM
I am enjoying this thread, thanks everyone for your contibutions. Howard, glad you are here.Been a blick customer many years, and will probably continue to be although I am in Athens, Greece now.
Howard, will it be any problem to order oil paints from over here?

ok, can anyone give me a run-down on pebo Frangard oils and Lukas?
It's what a larger store has here in Athens.
everything else I will HAVE TO order.
but I am willing to try these as I haven't before.
What i'd like to know is:
handling and feel, and lightfastness/permanency.
I like Maimeri, W&N, and several other brands- as far as feel/handling, can anyone give me another brand that they might be comparable to, to have a rough idea what they're like?
any warnings against these?
opinions, please :)

yes, I can go buy a few tubes, but, I don't get downtown a lot and dont have a lot of time to go running to the store all week, would like to make one trip worth it, and am desperate for decent paint right now.
Also, I am fairly brand loyal. I will try others, and use several, a few favorites from different brands, but, once I find ones I like, I tend to keep using those, so I can just work, and not worry about surprises when I start a new work (if that makes sense!)
thanks all to any help you can give.
happy painting!
Jenn

h20il
12-06-2006, 11:09 AM
Michael Harding, similar in properties to OH.
Lukas, very good for its prices
Fragonard, probably on par with W&N, Shiva etc.

Ribera
12-06-2006, 11:27 AM
I utilize what I understand are amongst the finest, Blockx & Old Holland. In addition I also add Gamblin, Grumbacher, M. Graham, and others. I do try to refrain from using the cheapies though. I do hear through the grapevine that Blockx' Naples Yellow is conspicuously fine.
Lastly, if you're broke, Utrecht brand are the cheapest!! 'They
lightfast?! Doubtful, but if you're a mere student, are you, at the moment particullarly concerned with your pictures lasting forever anyway? Their hues are as, or more, intense than the many more lightfast brands, you know, the ones ya can't afford. This is doubtlessly because of fillers and such, but do you really care at the moment?!

asciifish
12-06-2006, 12:39 PM
I guess I'll jump in supporting Sennelier. They're my primary brand originally because it's what my local art store likes to push, but I'm continuing on with them now as I make a serious effort to learn oils. From my fairly green standpoint, they're excellent 'student' colours. They're not as full of filler and hues like actual student paint, but they're not expensive like OH or Puro, which I really consider overkill in quality at this stage in my learning. You don't need to learn to drive on a corvette so to speak. I've found them to be very reliable in quality and have a nice buttery consistency.

However, I have a tube of Puro cad yellow and it does make drool. Also, anybody know anything about the Miameri Artisti line? I picked up a tube of their yellow ocher and it seems alright, but I can't find very much about the line online.

gunzorro
12-06-2006, 02:04 PM
The Artisti line is Maimeri's mid-grade line. It is artist quality, about equal to WN Artist. It is made with linseed, as opposed to safflower/poppy in the Puro line. They are all sold in 60ml tubes, and available in the US from Italian Art Store. You should be very happy with the Artisti line.

Jennifer Bernard
12-06-2006, 04:16 PM
H2Oil, thanks for that. I think I will give the Frangonard a try, a tube or two certainly won't hurt, but I don't want to give up my favorites, either.
(which I cannot get here).

I found the bit about maimeri artisti helpful, thank you Gunzorro! I didn't even know about them, just puro and classico.
What's your take on using the classico for regular work- I mean, using the classico along with say a few others of another brand, to do regular paintings? I know they are considered student grade, but they seem pretty good- (thier student grade seems nicer than some other's artist grade!) is it safe to go that route?

Ribera, I didn't know Bloxx was considered so good. will give them a try.
I'm not a student, so for me, lightfastness, permanency and handling are VERY important.
Yes, apparently Old Holland is Supposed to be fantastic- but the prices, ouch.
I can understand you get what you pay for, TO a Degree- I have my limits. HA HA
Not wiling to pay thier prices, not being an issue of affording or not-
if there was one very special color a company made I NEEDED or was in love with, sure, i'll pay a crazy high price, but, for most work, I find it to be a bit of overkill, and, at a certain level, it actually begins to effect what you need to sell work for, just to cover cost of paint, of course.

Anyway, since I'm happy with what I know and have tried, (and will try a few more new ones soon) I don't see the need to pay OH prices yet.
maybe. maybe later, maybe never.

I do find Gamblin to be quite good. I love the asphaultum color! (I think I spelled that wrong :P)

Asciifish-
wow, for a beginner, you really seem to have a level logical head about all of this, and I have to agree with your opinion.
I think as one progresses with thier learning, branching out to incoperate more expensive or higher grade paint is the way to go.
BUT, on the same note, sometimes not using good tools can actually cause frustration/learning problems.

asciifish
12-06-2006, 04:52 PM
sometimes not using good tools can actually cause frustration/learning problems.

Very true, I started off with Winton and ditched (rather shoved in the back of a drawer) them after about a month when I bought a tube of Sennelier Mars Black since I couldn't find a Winton tube of it. Painting almost instantly became easier. However, I didn't really notice a significant improvement when I tried some more esteemed paints, so I'm saving my money for now until my skills improve. I definitely agree that student grade paint can cause a good number of problems, but I don't think that switching to the top grades for learning is worth it.

dlake
12-06-2006, 08:57 PM
Like you, Asc, I am learning oils. I've painted in Acrylics but, right now I'm wanting this workhorse type. I hate the student paint but, cannot see spending for something like Puros.
I got a good amt of Schmincke Norma at Blicks. Mid range price and I'm told they are good,.
I'm hoping my family ordered it since My bday is coming up and xmas and I made sure to tell them. I am watching for that UPS truck....

gunzorro
12-06-2006, 10:53 PM
Jennifer -- IMO Classico is the best of the student-type paints. The downsides are many mixes of several pigments, or "hues"; or less expensive pigments for common mixes (such as Brilliant Yellow and Naples Yellow). The paint is oily due to seperation (which I consider a good thing actually -- less fillers and stabilzers); generally lower pigment load, but not so much that you are going to scream as with Winton.
On the plus side, their cadmiums are real cadmiums, just not quite as heavily pigmented, but still very adequete.
I am in the process of off-loading paints on the lower end that I never use anymore, and my 200ml tubes of Classico are on the list to go. :)
I would give the Artisti a try. If you ever get the chance, the Michael Harding paints are the least expensive of the high quality artist oils. Give them a try! Made in England, so you may find a way to get them in Greece.

By and large, I've abandoned most Norma paints in favor of Mussini. Norma's line is composed of a high percentage of multiple pigment colors and hues. The top end paints, such as Mussini, tend to be mostly single pigment paints or use higher quality pigments in their mixes. Norma is okay paint, in line with Gamblin, WN and Graham, among others in that mid-grade artist range.

h20il
12-06-2006, 11:36 PM
By and large, I've abandoned most Norma paints in favor of Mussini. Norma's line is composed of a high percentage of multiple pigment colors and hues. The top end paints, such as Mussini, tend to be mostly single pigment paints or use higher quality pigments in their mixes. Norma is okay paint, in line with Gamblin, WN and Graham, among others in that mid-grade artist range.
Norma isn't as good as Mussini but I think it is still probably considered pretty high end(M. Graham too). Yes, single pigments mix and respond better than mixed pigments, my Graham paints all have 1 pigment except for my titanium white alkyd which has 2. Norma is probably too cheap to have real pigments such as for the vermillion and naples yellow(all very expensive, but hues for those are ok)

dlake
12-06-2006, 11:47 PM
I looked at the Grahams awhile ago and they just did not appeal to me. Do not know why.

jdadson
12-07-2006, 02:16 AM
Studioproducts has very good paints. When you factor in the size of the tubes, they cost about 50% more than the mid-grade brands. I've only bought earth colors and flake white. The SP yellow ocher is particularly good, as are the burnt sienna and raw umber. Unlike other brands I've used, they have a good, smooth consistency and dry to a fine finish. And they are made with good ol' linseed oil.

jdadson
12-07-2006, 02:20 AM
I accidentally (by misclick on the net) bought big tubes of Winton flake white and zinc white once. The flake white is virtually unusable. It has no covering power, and it takes five times as long to dry as flake white should.

jdadson
12-07-2006, 02:21 AM
I love the asphaultum color!

It's transparent red iron oxide and ivory (bone) black. I roll my own.

dlake
12-07-2006, 07:33 AM
what is studio products? never heard of them. Or at least a bell is not ringing.

h20il
12-07-2006, 11:06 AM
www.studioproducts.com is the site, http://store.studioproducts.com/home.php is their store. They are even more expensive than OH, Williamsburg, Puro etc.!

gunzorro
12-07-2006, 11:07 AM
Jive -- the Mussini Asphaltum is a terrific convenience color for glazing or adding warm to neutral tints or colors. I don't believe it is made with TRO, even though label says PR101, that synthetic "red" oxide is most likely a dark brown. PY19 (I know -- wass'at?) is also listed as the second pigment, in excess of the PBlk7 (carbon black).
So -- go ahead, roll your own -- or buy a Series 1 tube and keep it on hand. :)

teppichluder
12-07-2006, 11:13 AM
Good morning I'm teppichluder und bin sehr nett

asciifish
12-07-2006, 12:05 PM
Good morning I'm teppichluder und bin sehr nett

Herzlich willkommen zu Wetcanvas, sondern schreiben wir Englisch hier.

jdadson
12-07-2006, 07:10 PM
www.studioproducts.com is the site, http://store.studioproducts.com/home.php is their store. They are even more expensive than OH, Williamsburg, Puro etc.!

You pay a small premium. Those are 50 ml tubes.

There are some inexpensive paints that I like just fine. As my technique improves I might become more picky. But I have not come across an inexpensive yellow ocher or burnt sienna that is anything near as nice as the SP stuff. At this point, I can afford to spend a few extra bucks on paint. When I've relocated into a cardboard box on Skid Row, I may regret it, but for now...

jdadson
12-07-2006, 07:11 PM
Jive -- the Mussini Asphaltum is a terrific convenience color for glazing or adding warm to neutral tints or colors. I don't believe it is made with TRO, even though label says PR101, that synthetic "red" oxide is most likely a dark brown. PY19 (I know -- wass'at?) is also listed as the second pigment, in excess of the PBlk7 (carbon black).
So -- go ahead, roll your own -- or buy a Series 1 tube and keep it on hand. :)

I was referring to the Gamblin "asphaltum." I already had the constituents in my paint box.

jdadson
12-07-2006, 07:36 PM
I have never tried an Old Holland paint. One reason is that for a long time I could not find the pigment codes like PB29, etc.. They use a lot of non-standard names.

dlake
12-07-2006, 09:15 PM
I have old holland in acrylics and those are nice. In acrylics, you have to use something like that to get any depth. Less plastic looking.
I am looking forward to something with depth, a glow and nice to spread and paint out.

h20il
12-07-2006, 11:14 PM
You pay a small premium. Those are 50 ml tubes.

There are some inexpensive paints that I like just fine. As my technique improves I might become more picky. But I have not come across an inexpensive yellow ocher or burnt sienna that is anything near as nice as the SP stuff. At this point, I can afford to spend a few extra bucks on paint. When I've relocated into a cardboard box on Skid Row, I may regret it, but for now...
Whoa there!
In studiopruducts.com the burnt sienna is $13.95 for a 50ml tube. In ItalianArtStore the Old Holland Classic oils are $8.25 for the 40ml tube of burnt sienna, Maimeri Puro is $7.75, is studioproducts much better than these premium brands? And I personally think that Williamsburg makes the best earth colours there is.

Spot!
12-07-2006, 11:32 PM
I was recently watching a documentary about photo realist painter Robert Becthle (see, e.g., http://www.sfmoma.org/exhibitions/exhib_detail.asp?id=180) and noticed that he was using Urtecht brand oils.
I'll think I'll try to focus on painting rather than obsessing about paint brands...

dlake
12-07-2006, 11:44 PM
I hope you have fun. For me this is really fun and educational. It is a real help for newbies to oils and those of us who can't see them in person. It helps us focus on certain brands with so much to choose from and it is all so confusing.

donn_granros
12-08-2006, 12:19 AM
I was recently watching a documentary about photo realist painter Robert Becthle (see, e.g., http://www.sfmoma.org/exhibitions/exhib_detail.asp?id=180) and noticed that he was using Urtecht brand oils.
I'll think I'll try to focus on painting rather than obsessing about paint brands...

I study a few hours a week with a very good local painter and teacher. He swears by Utrecht. Utrecht seems to have a fair amount of oil in it which precludes the need to add additional medium in many cases. He recommends the large tubes for economy of purchase and for the fact that with large tubes painters are less reticent about putting a decent amount of paint on their pallettes. I've got my little range of favorite brands and maybe at some point I'll indulge more in the higher end stuff but ultimately good or bad in my work has way more to do with my eye and hand than any given brand of paint or medium.

Jennifer Bernard
12-08-2006, 10:33 AM
Thanks everyone for sharing. the last few posts especially have been helpful since I was asking about a few things. Still am not sure too much about the Pebeo Frangonard, though...I'll try them, but, just wish I had more info. on them.
I'll probably end up with the majority of my paint for new work being Maimeri.
with a few favorite brands thrown in there, too.

Spot, happy for you that you don't need to worry about the paint you are actually using to create work! LOL

For me, it's very important. I sell the art I make- as my career.
I want to create the best work I can, if people are paying me for it.
I also want to make sure my work will exist after a few years ;)
I also like learning more about the tools I use, and as a painter, well, paint is pretty darn important to know about!
and, just because a brand is really expensive, it doesn't necessarily mean it is the best (as with most things in life).

yes, I too, like to 'just paint' and not worry about a lot of things, BUT, sometimes we have to spend a little time learning.

I'm just really happy I have others to ask about this!
cheers,
Jenn
:)

dlake
12-08-2006, 05:55 PM
Jennifer, I agree. I am learning and hate the paint I use now. and I hate wasting money on bad paint or one that is not right for me. To know about the different brands helps to know which ones to buy and be happy with the choice.

dbclemons
12-08-2006, 09:00 PM
Jenn, a friend of mine brought back a few tubes of oils from a place in Italy that he was good enough to give me. It's a place called Zecchi, and they seem like very nice paints. They may be easy for you to get in Greece.
http://www.zecchi.com/pag1.htm

turlogh
12-08-2006, 10:31 PM
In studiopruducts.com the burnt sienna is $13.95 for a 50ml tube. In ItalianArtStore the Old Holland Classic oils are $8.25 for the 40ml tube of burnt sienna, Maimeri Puro is $7.75, is studioproducts much better than these premium brands? And I personally think that Williamsburg makes the best earth colours there is.Both Williamsburg and SP make gorgeous earth colors. I think the WB paints are a bit too thick for optimal paint handling. The SP paints are the perfect consistency, while the WB paints usually need to be adjusted with medium. If I could afford it, I would buy mostly from SP.

turlogh
12-08-2006, 10:32 PM
Jenn, a friend of mine brought back a few tubes of oils from a place in Italy that he was good enough to give me. It's a place called Zecchi, and they seem like very nice paints. They may be easy for you to get in Greece.
http://www.zecchi.com/pag1.htmAmong tempera painters, Zecchi has a great reputation for their dry pigments.

dlake
12-08-2006, 11:08 PM
David, I have a few tubes of Williamsburg. I agree. When I first began oils I got some thinking they would be great and I hate them. thick mud. It does not spread well and is such a pain.

turlogh
12-09-2006, 06:32 PM
David, I have a few tubes of Williamsburg. I agree. When I first began oils I got some thinking they would be great and I hate them. thick mud. It does not spread well and is such a pain.
Personally, I like them. I think they are a bit thick, but manageable. They have some wonderful earths that I would not want to do without.

dlake
12-09-2006, 07:37 PM
You know, David, alot of people do write here that they like them. I agree with people on the WN but, I haven't tried more than a few brands. So many I wonder about and wish there was an art store near by. But, that is what WC is for. To help us kinda get an idea.
My search continues......

h20il
12-09-2006, 09:06 PM
You can take advantage on Williamsburgs thickness on the cadmiums(its supposed to be very thick)
Oh, and has anyone here try out Daniel E. Greene oils? Jack Richeson claims that it is the best oils they have made, and the best you can find anywhere.

dlake
12-09-2006, 11:27 PM
Ive seen them in my catalog but, never paid much attention to them. The L & B and the pebeo and the chroma I have wondered about out of curiosity.
I think I'm getting my paint this week. my fingers are crossed. which ones got ordered????

TinaD
12-10-2006, 01:28 AM
My two cents worth...I haven't tried that many Williamsburg colors so maybe their cads are okay...I wasn't turned off by their thickness...I was turned off by their graininess...i've never before encountered a color I thought was not milled properly...it was if the pigment and oil where not fluidly combined...this was on an Alizarin crimson. Anyone else have this experience with Williamsburg?

Jennifer Bernard
12-10-2006, 06:05 AM
David, thanks for the heads up on the Zecchi! :)
will look into that, definitely.

DLake, what brands are you using now that you hate? (even within brands, the difference between student grade and artist grade can make a huge difference.)
what kind of painting you are doing sometimes comes into play when deciding what to buy. (heavy impasto, or glazes, ala prima, or several layers.et.)
also, do you use any mediums, or turps or anything to mix with your paints?

(feel free to pm me on this too.I saw these posts after I read my pm's today LOL)

dlake
12-10-2006, 07:44 PM
I do more glazing as I do alot of architecture in my paintings. I do village scenes in france and italy. I have landscape mixed in and love doing skies.
The paints I have are some williamsburg and yes, there is a graininess to it. I orignially got a couple tubes that were left of rembrandt and w&n which I like. A craft store going out of biz and thought a perfect time to indulge my curiosity of oils.
I needed basic colors so I ordered a set of shinhan because of price and awful. color is weak. I only have a few tubes of the w&n - some off colors. They were fun to use but, when I got to adding the basic colors of blues and stuff awful. but, stayed with these as I was practicing.
Now I'm doing real paintings and with my bday next week and xmas I thought I'd get some good oils. But, looking thru my catalogs it's so confusing.
but, which brand is moot point now. My family ordered one of them for me and is on it's way. I put 5 brands at 5 places. Shmincke at Blicks, Maimeri Artisti at Italian art store, Art spectrum and winsor and newton at jerry's and sennelier at asw. The cart is empty at blicks and Italian Art store so I'm guessing this week I will either have schmincke or Maimeri.
Fingers are crossed and I'll let you guys know. scary.

gunzorro
12-10-2006, 08:17 PM
It is sort of too bad you didn't keep all your orders in one -- IAS has free shipping for $150 order total. That's quite a savings.

dlake
12-10-2006, 08:27 PM
Oh, believe me, it came to 150 or more. You pick out 15 tubes or so and it adds up. 2 big ones of white...
ISA also has some free brushes to go along with it so, it would be cool. I have a few kolinsky brushes and they are so good. I love those the best. they have those with your order.
And the Artisti kinda has my attention. seems like a perfect medium from the puros (I did put the golden lake on it - whew!) and the classicos. Nice mid range price.

h20il
12-10-2006, 08:47 PM
They give 4 kolinsky brushes with them! That is like a 50 dollar value!

dlake
12-10-2006, 08:50 PM
I use kolinsky because they hold up. wash them out and they do not fray out. I find mongoose does that. So, a couple of kolinsky is a super deal. hope hope hope-lol

h20il
12-10-2006, 09:04 PM
I know, I cant believe Mongoose breaks! Wow! I thought I should buy them because some people like them, but thanks for your suggestion, as for kolinsky, I like them very much but am too lazy to buy more of them.

dlake
12-10-2006, 09:13 PM
I have good brushes and don't really need anymore. but, if I am curious and it's a good sale I may get one or two when I do canvas.

jdadson
12-10-2006, 09:27 PM
Whoa there!
In studiopruducts.com the burnt sienna is $13.95 for a 50ml tube. In ItalianArtStore the Old Holland Classic oils are $8.25 for the 40ml tube of burnt sienna, Maimeri Puro is $7.75, is studioproducts much better than these premium brands? And I personally think that Williamsburg makes the best earth colours there is.

The SP paints are on sale until Dec 25 at a 15% discount in case you are interested.

Let's run the numbers. (4/5)*13.95 = $11.60. So when it's not on sale, the SP sells for a 40% premium over OH. On sale, it works out to 20%. Someone check my arithmetic.

I haven't tried OH burnt sienna, and I probably won't. I have found one that works for me, and I am not that worried about a few cents per painting.

The property of the SP burnt sienna that sells it for me is the sheen. It's smoooooth. The brand I had been using was too grainy. It always dried to a matte finish, even if I applied it deftly right out of the tube. If I didn't apply it perfectly, that is to say, if I had mooshed it around, painted into it, or "licked" it, (which alas was too often the case), no amount of oiling out or varnish would save it.

I have several SP earth colors and ivory black. They all dry to a perfect finish. (I have boards with test dabs of all the paints I've bought.) The SP yellow ochre is particularly nice compared to a couple of others.

Winsor and Newton sells a paint that they call "burnt sienna" that dries with a very good finish. (It's actually mars red.) The problem with it is that it does not do what I want burnt sienna to do. Out of the tube, it is too red, too high in chroma, and it does not lose chroma as much as natural burnt sienna when white is added.

dlake
12-10-2006, 09:38 PM
you said you have a good burnt sienna. have you tried rembrandt? I read that sennelier dries to a satin finish. I don't know alot of different oil brands but, I read that Maimeri paints dry to a nice finish as well.

jdadson
12-11-2006, 01:36 AM
you said you have a good burnt sienna. have you tried rembrandt?

Nope. I will not be trying it because the pigment is PR101, like the Winsor and Newton.

gunzorro
12-11-2006, 01:48 AM
I've received the IAS sable brushes several times. These are quality sables, a selection of four brush styles, all #4. So I don't know that it is an actual $50 value, but it is indeed a value for great brushes. Keep in mind, this offer only applies to $150 in paint purchases, besides any other products.
IAS has outstanding prices, and when you factor in the free brushes and free shipping on orders over $150, they are just about the best deal around.

jdadson
12-11-2006, 01:53 AM
What and where is IAS?

rain24
12-11-2006, 05:09 AM
IAS = Italian Art Store

http://www.italianartstore.com

They have excellent prices on really great brands of oil paint...Blockx, Old Holland, Maimeri, WN to name a few...

Their shipping is fast and at a flat rate. I think they are in the East somewhere...NJ or NY I think. I just got some basic Old Holland oils from there last summer...I love them :) I forgot how I found out about them a few years back - I know I used to order my watercolor brushes from them ages ago.

~Rain

dbclemons
12-11-2006, 09:15 AM
...Winsor and Newton sells a paint that they call "burnt sienna" that dries with a very good finish. (It's actually mars red.) The problem with it is that it does not do what I want burnt sienna to do...

I think there's more in it than just PR101. On one list, for example, I see their "terra rosa" pigment as PR101, and on a different list it has PR101 and PBR7. In fact several colors are listed as PR101, including mars violet and indian red. Their Burnt Sienna in the Artisans line also contains a mix but it's a calcined natural iron oxide.

The full listing is at the end of their "Oil Color Book" on their website.
http://www.winsornewton.com/mainEN.php

gunzorro
12-11-2006, 09:43 AM
Jive -- IAS also has fantastic prices on the various Silver Brush products, among other premium brushes such as Da Vinci, Raphael and Isabey, plus "house brands" made by Da Vinci and others.
Plus, the complete assortment of solvents, oils and mediums from Maimeri -- someone on another thread was wondering where to get good walnut oil. I've picked up safflower oil here, or you could get poppy or walnut (and varieties of linseed), to try out.
I have found them very fast in turnaround, and very responsive if I find I need to add a few items to an order just placed, or to a back order.

dlake
12-11-2006, 07:32 PM
how long does delivery take. like if I order from Blicks I get it in 2 days so, about how long. I know this time of year it will be longer but, trying to gauge the time so I kinda know when to wait for the ups truck. That is if my family ordered from there. I know they did not use blicks if it doesn't come tomorrow. Then I know what paints I will be expecting.
tomorrow is my bday so good week for paint to come.

gunzorro
12-11-2006, 11:59 PM
IAS is in NJ. I get my stuff in about five days to the West Coast, so I imagine yours will be two to three days sooner.
BTW -- I made a mistake -- the sables are all size #6, not 4.

dlake
12-12-2006, 12:35 AM
doesn't matter. if I get from Italian art store. don't know. will tomorrow. I figure if it comes tomorrow they got from blick's and it is schmincke. if I get it around thrusday, it is maimeri
and lovely kolinsky brushes

florafairy
12-12-2006, 04:23 PM
[quote=Jennifer Bernard]Thanks everyone for sharing. the last few posts especially have been helpful since I was asking about a few things. Still am not sure too much about the Pebeo Frangonard, though...I'll try them, but, just wish I had more info. on them.
I'll probably end up with the majority of my paint for new work being Maimeri.
with a few favorite brands thrown in there, too.)

I have been reading this thread, which is very interesting and complex! So forgive me if I have it mixed up here, but I think, Jennifer, that you said you have used WN oils before and like them?
I was just on the oil paint hunt in Athens in October, and found a store that carries a full selection of Winsor Newton oils. I think it is called Placio, and is a good sized nice store that seems to have office supplies. They may have other art materials that you can use as well. I don’t know what other kinds of paint (maybe only van Gogh.). If I have the name wrong, let me know and I will double check the name (and I can get you a phone number as well) with a friend in Athens. Good luck with your search. In fact, if you want it, I may be able to get you the names of the other stores that I went to there (which I found with the help of some artists there.) The other little stores that I found all carried Rembrandt and Van Gogh, but may have mediums, etc, that you need. There was also a store that had the paint powders, I guess to make your own.

florafairy
12-13-2006, 06:05 AM
Jennifer, I found my receipt from the store that sells Winsor Newton oil paint. The Store is called Plaisio Computers Sa and their Telephone is +30-210-2892168. There are 3 other paint stores around the corner that I can find out about if you like.. they all carry Rembrandt and VG, and one has the pigment powders.

Some thoughts. A read through Gamblin’s webpage on the earth colors gave me some ideas as to why some companies substitute other pigments for the traditional one (which seems to be PBr7). http://www.gamblincolors.com/materials/earths.html
He discusses in both general info and in the individual descriptions of pigments, how and why the traditional earth pigments today no longer have the transparency and are higher priced and also how the umbers (still given the top lightfast rating) darken over time. And then farther down the page, why and how the earth colors made from Mars colors, which are transparent, came to be used.

Another thought: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/ is the most amazing, encyclopedic site on all technical aspects of watercolors. (Check out the site map, which is the best way to negotiate this site I think.)
I haven’t seen any site like it for oil paints (anyone out there seen one?).. probably because as the creator of the site said in his Q & A page, no one else is crazy enough to do it. That said, perhaps some of what he discusses does apply to oils, and probably the pages on how to do your own tests would apply to any paint.
2 things I wonder are, is the lightfastness of a watercolor paint (which fades more than oil) the canary in the mine for the oil paint with that pigment, and two, even if that isn’t the case, or isn’t always the case, … if a manufacturer is inaccurate in their lightfastness ratings for their watercolors, can they be trusted with their oils? That said, in this persons tests, he found that Art Spectrum, Daniel Smith, DaVinci, Maimeri, M.Grahm, Utrecht and Winsor Newton “choose quality pigments and publish accurate lightfastness information about them” and could be used with confidence. Bolckx, Holbein, Lukas, Old Holland, Remberandt, Schminche, Sennelier, and Yarka, he said, present a mixed bag. I was reading at: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/litetest.html and for a more extensive read on each manufacturer:
http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt2.html . He has documented extensive tests for lightfastness of each pigment in each color category at: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html . The “marketing romance link at the side of http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html - romance (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#romance) made for a very amusing read!

chidokan
12-14-2006, 01:40 AM
Which Oil Paint do YOU recomend?
I've tried a few, but Old Holland comes out on top. Uses cold pressed linseed oil, instead of the cheaper refined linseed oil often found in other makes. They are dense paints with no filler, just pigment and binder. Sometimes they are so thick that they need a medium added. Never known one of Old Hollands paints to have the oil seperate out from the pigment. Winsor and Newton paints sometimes do this.
At art school I was told to use any good artists professional quality oil paint, but always use Old Holland for the flesh in a portrait.
regards
john(the realist)

florafairy
12-14-2006, 08:04 AM
Which Oil Paint do YOU recomend?
I've tried a few, but Old Holland comes out on top. Uses cold pressed linseed oil, instead of the cheaper refined linseed oil often found in other makes. They are dense paints with no filler, just pigment and binder. Sometimes they are so thick that they need a medium added. Never known one of Old Hollands paints to have the oil seperate out from the pigment. Winsor and Newton paints sometimes do this.
At art school I was told to use any good artists professional quality oil paint, but always use Old Holland for the flesh in a portrait.
regards
john(the realist) That's really interesting. I just checked the Michael Harding website. He writes on his website: "Unless otherwise stated, all paints are bound with Refined Cold-Pressed Linseed Oil" and on his home page: "The greater the pigment content of a paint the greater the resistance it has to fading. Nearly all manufacturers use various fillers to extend the volume of the oil paint. It may increase profits but it compromises on quality. I totally refuse to do this. Why make something exceptional and then dilute it?"

h20il
12-14-2006, 01:27 PM
yes, in his website he indeeds say that, but both OH and MH use very low amount of fillers, which some pigments, such as colbalt blue needs to.

number19
12-14-2006, 01:57 PM
Which Oil Paint do YOU recomend?
I've tried a few, but Old Holland comes out on top. Uses cold pressed linseed oil, instead of the cheaper refined linseed oil often found in other makes. They are dense paints with no filler, just pigment and binder. Sometimes they are so thick that they need a medium added. Never known one of Old Hollands paints to have the oil seperate out from the pigment. Winsor and Newton paints sometimes do this.
At art school I was told to use any good artists professional quality oil paint, but always use Old Holland for the flesh in a portrait.
regards
john(the realist)

A couple of points. The research that I've looked at indicates that cold pressed linseed oil will yellow more over time as the paint dries than will good quality alkali refined linseed oil. Secondly, Old Holland paints may be very thick or viscous even though no filler is used, but as you say, that often necessitates the use of a medium, which has other consequences. Many quality paint makers that make paint which equals or perhaps even surpasses the quality of Old Holland paints make paint that may seem a bit oily or the oil may have separated a little or be a bit runny when you remove the cap. That is not a big deal and it is likely result of those makers not using emulsifiers or fillers and of their grinding their pigments differently. You can just drain off that little bit of excess oil. Many of the top quality paints may be less viscous than Old Holland but just as highly pigmented . The less viscous paints may be more finely ground. Regarding the viscosity question it is mainly a matter of working methods and personal choice. For example, if I prefer not using mediums or minimizing their use, I might want a less viscous ( though still highly pigmented ) paint. - Jack

chidokan
12-15-2006, 05:40 PM
To: florafairy
According to Creevy (Ref: Bill Creevy. The Oil Painting Book - Materials & Techniques for today's Artist. Watson-Guptill, New York,1994, page 22) who apparently has an M.F.A degree, he states that "...the Old-Holland Oil Colour Assoc. guarantees that no fillers or waxes are added to this highly pigmented formulation. The final result is a smooth, very intense oil paint that is so dense it must be put into the tube by hand."
A current tube of their lead white I have is so dense that it takes an awful lot of pressure to get the paint out of the tube. Fortunately, other tubes of theirs I have used are not so difficult to use.
regards
john(the realist)

chidokan
12-15-2006, 08:47 PM
To: No19
My understanding of the literature is that cold pressed linseed oil may be superior to heat or chemically modified linseed oils. This is endorsed in the artist's 'bible' (Ref: Mayer, Ralph. The Artist's Handbook - of materials & techniques. 5th edition, faber & faber, London, 1991, page 171) "Cold-pressed oil properly aged and filtered........is used for pigment grinding without further refinement in only the highest-quality artist oil paint..."
Professor Max Doerner (Prof. in the Academy of Fine Arts, Munich) states that, "Cold-pressed linseed oil is the best for artist's purposes." (Ref: M. Doerner. The materials of the Artist. Harvest books, 1984, P100)
Seymour (ref:Pip Seymour. The Artist's Handbook - A complete professional guide to materials & techniques.Arcturus publishing, London, 2003, Pp266 - 268) "Cold-pressed linsed oil.....is of great importance to artists...as this high-acid value oil readily accepts powdered pigments, so assisting the paint-making process. And, "..when brushed out on to the painting surface, brushmarks tend to level out. Cold-pressed linseed oil will take longer to dry than refined linseed oil...but has a superior gloss and hardness once dried."
Creevy (Ref: Bill Creevy. The Oil painting book. Watson-Guptill, NY, 1994,P32) states that: "While there is some disagreement on this point, oil paints made with cold-pressed linseed oil are generally considered superior in handling, film strength, and textural brilliance to paints made from more refined types of linseed oil".
NB: Other more refined types of oils are often used simply because of the high cost of the cold-pressed version not, apparently, because of any reason associated with technical superiority.
regards
john(the realist)

florafairy
12-15-2006, 10:36 PM
Thanks john(the realist). I went back to that website http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/ and read some more about lightfastness. I wish there were an equivalent site for oil paints. He does mention there that the lightfast ratings of pigments relate to that pigment in oil or acrylic, so what it does in watercolor is another matter.
That said, his discussion partway down the page http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html - lightfast (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#lightfast) labeled lightfastness with a grain of salt is interesting. He gives a bunch of reasons to distrust the ASTM rating including, forinstance, the quality of the raw material of the pigment can vary. He says finally (again this is for watercolor, so I don’t know…) that “… large scale lightfastness testing is costly and time consuming. In fact, no paint manufacturer tests all their paints: some manufacturers test some of their paints, but most do not test any paints at all. I believe Daniel Smith is the only manufacturer actually to test their pigment stock, but I do not know how frequently this is done. In most cases, the lightfastness rating on the tube of paint is actually the ASTM rating (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#ASTM) of the generic pigment, or the pigment manufacturer's lightfastness rating (which may be based on chemical reasoning rather than an actual light exposure test, or a test of the pigment in an acrylic dispersion), or a rating inferred from "common knowledge" or the chemical structure of the generic pigment.”
He also has a discussion of all the things that go into a watercolor ( there is quite a list with fillers being only one item, at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt1.html - ingredients (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt1.html#ingredients) ) and again I don’t know how it applies to oils, but I wonder. Like the brighteners…
I would enjoy any information in this area for oils. I looked online for a description of the manufacture of oil paints, but couldn’t find one. I accept that OH doesn’t use fillers or waxes, but there may be other things in there that do affect lightfastness.
At anyrate, I just ordered Daniel Smith paints, and Michael Harding paints. I am sure I will enjoy them. Partly, the prices on the OH paints are too steep at least for my psychology . Also, though the Rembrant paints I have are too oily for me (at least on the slippery oil primed canvas surface that I have here), I am not sure I want to be having to always adding oil to the OH paints to get them onto the canvas. But I will get the OH Carrabean Blue, since it is the only single pigment phtalo blue (PB16 ) that I can find, and the $21 price is still in my acceptable world.
Thank you to all of you for all the interesting information. I am being very educated by this conversation.
By the way, I read somewhere else that the OH paints are way cheaper in Holland, so if you want OH paint and are there…that’s the place to get them.
andrea

dlake
12-15-2006, 11:32 PM
Andrea, let me know how you like the Daniel Smith paints. I was looking at those and loved the colors. curious about the paint.

florafairy
12-16-2006, 12:41 AM
Andrea, let me know how you like the Daniel Smith paints. I was looking at those and loved the colors. curious about the paint. I'll let you know! I got only single pigment paints with excellent lightfastness ratings... and , I am embarassed to say, I got alot of them. (I am a glutton for color, and motivated by the vague hope that different pigments (with different spectrums) mix differently. However, I may be a gluton for punishment... as I did this once before with watermisable oils and found it tough to figure out how to deal with so many tubes. Anyway, that is a subject for a different forum, but just to say, I will be trying out a lot of their colors.)

dlake
12-16-2006, 02:04 AM
Try using 2 boxes. And then, separate them. Like blues and purples, ect. in one box and grey and whites and earths in another. We did that in pastels. Kept them in a color order or something because you used so many colors.
I got my shinhan tryout set and it had alot of colors and it was when I started with oils. I kept them somewhat color separted and in 2 small boxes. It will help you find what color fast and be somewhat organized.

number19
12-16-2006, 01:04 PM
Hi John.

The sources that you cited may be correct regarding what they say are the advantages of cold pressed linseed oil over alkali refined linseed oil. I don't know. I do know a number of the makers of very high quality paints like Williamsburg use alkali refined linseed oil . Michael Harding according to his website uses REFINED cold pressed linseed oil ( so cold pressed then refined ? and how refined ? ) to make his very high quality paints. Is the Old Holland cold pressed linseed oil used raw or is it refined after it is cold pressed ? Good luck in your research, - Jack

florafairy
12-16-2006, 01:24 PM
Hi John.

The sources that you cited may be correct regarding what they say are the advantages of cold pressed linseed oil over alkali refined linseed oil. I don't know. I do know a number of the makers of very high quality paints like Williamsburg use alkali refined linseed oil . Michael Harding according to his website uses REFINED cold pressed linseed oil ( so cold pressed then refined ? and how refined ? ) to make his very high quality paints. Is the Old Holland cold pressed linseed oil used raw or is it refined after it is cold pressed ? Good luck in your research, - Jack A few days ago I finally got someone at Daniel Smith that was an oil painter and had some knowledge. 2 things. One, which doesn't answer this but may be of interest… he said that there are only 2 makers of linseed oil that the various paint manufactures buy from . (he seemed to imply that Daniel Smith feels the one that they buy from is better.)

The second thing he said relates to a post pretty far back about the Autograph series. He has worked for Daniel Smith since when they were carrying that oil (in fact, he seemed to be the only one there who had even heard of it) and he said that it was discontinued years ago, so the oil in what they have left now which is for sale may be separating. That is why it is cheaper now. He also said that they discontinued that line because they made their regular line more like it. I am not sure…. but I think he was saying that they increased the pigment concentration like the autograph series, but not to the point where the pigments because too stiff.

gunzorro
12-16-2006, 02:06 PM
Your friend may have said certain things about Smith paints, but I don't know how much validity there is in his speculation.
The oil in the Autograph series is not separating -- I have bought about 20 tubes over the last year or so and they have all been in normal condition.
I've also bought perhaps 40 tubes of the current Smith line-up, and it does not compare to the higher quality standard of the Autograph series. That is like comparing WN to OH. Both good paints for what they are and their price, but not in the same league. This isn't to say current Smith paints aren't excellent, it is simply a matter of degree.

Regarding oils - cold pressed, if otherwise unrefined, will spoil in a relatively short period of time, making it incompatable as a binding oil for paint. All paints are manufactured with refined oil of one type or another, most commonly alkali-refined oil. Be sceptical of any maker's hype saying they used unrefined cold pressed linseed.

florafairy
12-16-2006, 06:09 PM
Your friend may have said certain things about Smith paints, but I don't know how much validity there is in his speculation.
The oil in the Autograph series is not separating -- I have bought about 20 tubes over the last year or so and they have all been in normal condition.
I've also bought perhaps 40 tubes of the current Smith line-up, and it does not compare to the higher quality standard of the Autograph series. That is like comparing WN to OH. Both good paints for what they are and their price, but not in the same league. This isn't to say current Smith paints aren't excellent, it is simply a matter of degree.

Regarding oils - cold pressed, if otherwise unrefined, will spoil in a relatively short period of time, making it incompatable as a binding oil for paint. All paints are manufactured with refined oil of one type or another, most commonly alkali-refined oil. Be sceptical of any maker's hype saying they used unrefined cold pressed linseed.
this is very good information. Thanks. I will look into it. Unfortunately , there aren't many of the Autograph paints left.
thanks
andrea

chidokan
12-16-2006, 06:33 PM
Re:Which oil paint do you recommend.
One really good way of appreciating the properties of oil paints is to actually make a few tubes of them yourself. Gottsegen (The Painter's handbook) describes the process in detail. I have made a few tubes, and it is very messy and time consuming. It takes a long time to grind up enough oil paint properly to fill a 37ml tube. You need a specialized glass grinder and slab and a room where, preferably, you have a wash tub. However, on the definite plus side, after grinding a few tubes you will most certainly understand the different oil absorption properties of different pigments, their wetting ability, the concept of underbound or overbound paint, flocculation, driers, and why the oil can seperate out from the pigment in the tube. You can prepare the tubed paint with or without any fillers or additives, and you will then be better able to appreciate the properties you find in commercially prepared oil paints.
I believe that this is an important part of an oil painters education. Costs a few dollars for the initial set-up? yes it does, but surely our customers can expect us to be not only skilled artists but excellent craftsman as well??
regards
john(the realist)
NB: Best to follow clear instructions from an authorative source such as those found in Gottsegen's book, rather than some much briefer descriptions found in some popular 'how to..." books designed for the beginner.

chidokan
12-16-2006, 06:55 PM
To: florafairy and others,
Re: which oil paint do you recommend.
Both Gottsegen's and Mayer's books contain a wealth of information regarding paints, pigments, premanance testing (including ASTM testing), binders, etc. Mayer's book, The Artist's handbook, 5th edition contains full page monographs of each pigment and how it performs in each media (oils, watercolours, etc) and many pigments have spectographs illustrating their performance characteristcs. This is a very comprehensive and authorative text and should be part of the education of every serious artist.
I attended two different long-established art schools and was taught a number of quite contradictory methods even within the same school. Many artists appear not to bother with an in-depth technical education of their craft, preferring to concentrate on the production of art works. My background is with a science degree and I feel ethically bound to understand my craft in detail, and prefer to follow the advice of those with the academic qualifications, professional training and academic positions where they have the facilities to undergo scientific research in their fields of speciality.
From the past we know that some paintings have survived over hundreds of years, but others have failed even after the passage of a few years. We can learn from the past certainly, but it apperas that few of the past artists whose paintings still survive kept detailed written records of their materials and methods. Surely, with all the advances in our scientific understanding of artist's materials and methods we can develop strategies which enable us to produce oil paintings as least as permanent as anything produced in the past?? If not, why not???
regards
john(the realist)

chidokan
12-16-2006, 07:06 PM
RE: which oil paint brand do YOU recommend?
Lightfastness testing is something we can all do ourselves I have painted swatches of four different types of oil paint and placed them against a window exposed to the sun for the last 2.5 years, or so. I live in Sydney, Australia and the temperature next to the glass pane goes above 40 deg. C frequently in summer. So far neither the Winsor & Newton Artist's quality oil paints or their Artisan water mixable oils have faded much and have not cracked, but two cheap Chinese brands have. To date I have yet to try other brands.
I would strongly suggest that you purchase Gottegen's book The painter's handbook) which has detailed instructions on lightfastness testing.
regards
john(the realist)

dlake
12-16-2006, 08:51 PM
I have that book on my wishlist. thanks for letting me know.
Is one of the brands shinhan??? disappointing is the best I can do. Winsor and Newton is a great brand. I wanted to try some different ones but, if I couldn't find something that was a great sub. for the money, then I'd stick with winsor and newton.

chidokan
12-16-2006, 11:59 PM
To: Keith Russell,
I have used, and still have, Art Spectrum oil paints. They are reasonable quality, but nothing like the quality of Old Holland!
regards,
john(the realist)
Sydney, Australia. PS: In my experience Art Spectrum will promptly reply to any technical quaestions you have, unlike Winsor & Newton who either don't bother or are very slow.

h20il
12-17-2006, 12:23 AM
I have that book on my wishlist. thanks for letting me know.
Is one of the brands shinhan??? disappointing is the best I can do. Winsor and Newton is a great brand. I wanted to try some different ones but, if I couldn't find something that was a great sub. for the money, then I'd stick with winsor and newton.
shinhan is a korean, not a chinese brand, the only oils I used made in china is reeves and a tube of Maries "Extra-Fine", the Maries were actually of reasonable quality. You should check out W&N in the reviews section, it is the highest rated of all brands, oh, did you check doak? I heard they have VERY good paints at the best prices.

florafairy
12-17-2006, 11:31 AM
Ooops.. I accidentally deleted the messages in my inbox (I misunderstood the icons of “read” and “unread” .. so there were some messages in there from the last day that I didn’t get and I don't know from whom but they were from this thread.
Sorry.. thanks for sending them again.

h20il
12-17-2006, 02:42 PM
I'm glad you got them back! That was kind of odd...

florafairy
12-17-2006, 07:42 PM
oh....sorry... no, I was asking anyone who sent me a message yesterday to resend it if possible... they iz gone.
Thanks!
andrea

dlake
12-17-2006, 07:57 PM
Well, I listed a couple brands and made a wish list on a couple different sites. From what I know, my family got one of them but, I don't know which ones. I will know later this week. I will be getting either: Winsor and newton, Maimeri Artisti, Schmincke Norma or Art Spectrum. We shall see what I get. I will let you guys know when it comes. I really hate waiting and having to be surprised. lol.;

instantjim
12-17-2006, 09:02 PM
It is really hard to recommend just one brand, it really depends what you are looking for. There are intangibles that make people prefer one brand or colour over another, such as pleasant experiences or successes they have had with certain colours (colors). There is something about some paints, that people prefer to others. I have some tubes of Speedball oil, I bought in a clearance in 1986, which I wish I could still buy (so far as I know they are long gone from the market). They were the first reasonable quality paints I ever bought (and for only $2 a tube). Also, is price an issue? If so, what paints are reasonably priced, while still having reasonable quality? This is what I have found, based on balancing quality with price: Titanium White :Louvre (yes it's only an amateur grade paint, but for opacity and pureness it is on par with the best of others I have tested). Earth colours: Old Holland are good (especially Caput Mortuum Violet ) I also like their Ultramarine Blue. But what about Pebeo XL? (about the cheapest of the cheap,but they make a great Raw Sienna - quite deep in hue and their Dioxazine Violet is actually a lot stronger in tinting than some of the "Artist grade" paints I have). Lefranc has some interesting new colours, I like their cobalt blue. Art Spectrum cadmium red and scarlet are value. Schmincke Norma are really good value, especially for some of the new synthetic reds and yellows (their Indian Yellow is PY110 is only series 1). Pebeo Fragonard has some bizarre mixes of pigments in some of their colours, but the mono-pigment colours are worthwhile (Fragonard Brown PBr25 Benzimidazolone Brown is beautiful and rich). Rembrandt are oily (or some say buttery), but have a good range of new lightfast pigments (their series 3 reds and yellows are worth a look). Winsor and Newton are much maligned, but I think unfairly so (they are perhaps a little overpriced, but have a consistent quality throughout the range). I like Permalba's Oxide of Chromium - it's the cheapest and best of the 3 or so that I have. There's probably something good in most ranges, but if I had to choose one brand, it would be Schmincke Norma. Gamblin paints I have found to be overbound with oil. Many brands are not sold in Australia, where I live, so I have not tried them (would love to get my hands on Doak's, Harding's, Williamsburg etc to try out, but with international postage EEEEK!).

dlake
12-17-2006, 11:19 PM
You can get harding paint at italian art store. I saw it there. check it out.

J.Mozique
12-18-2006, 09:44 PM
When I was an art student, many moons ago, I had an instructor who told us to buy 4 tubes of paint. It didn't matter what brand we bought, just 4 tubes: red, yellow, blue, and white. Or, if we were real adventurous, we could make up our own from ground pigment. Everything we painted had to be made using those colors. Needless to say, we learned how to make every color under the sun. Winsor & Newton was the brand I used then and still use. For the type of painting I do, I don't know that it really matters. LOL.
Try different brands and use what you like.

Donna A
12-18-2006, 10:39 PM
I've tried most all the prime brands over the decades and fell in love with the high pigmentation of the Art Spectrum oils when they were introduced to the USA around 2000. And the Old Hollands are just the Rolls Royce of oils, I think. The Gamblin's I've tried are lovely. Several other really fine brands, many smaller makers on the market that have some great paint---Williamsburg, etc. Robert Doak has some absolutely fascinating colors---a number of them used more in centuries past. Has been fun to experiment with a number of them. Very interesting!

Where you are really needing to limit your spending, I suggest going with a very well selected Limited Palette. I always want a warm and cool of each of the three primaries. And yes----you CAN have warm and cool blues, etc. But that's for another day! :-) I find I get the very most range using Cad. Yellow Light and either/both Yellow Ochre or Raw Sienna (the warmer yellows); Cad Red Light and a cooler red (toward the blue[violet]) such as a crimson or a dark magenta. Then I want Ultramarine, preferably French Ultra and then for the largest range, I'll use a Thalo Green rather than Thalo Blue or Manganese. With my Ultramarine and Thalo Green, I can get rich turquoises, chartruese, teal, sage---any thing like that I would need.
And then a Mixed White. This gives you magnificent range! And it is a LOT easier, often to learn more about color and color mixing with a limited palette. Here is the suggested list for Limited Palette I have on my web site, along with some Optional extras that are my next choices down the list.
http://www.aldridgestudios.com/750-Class-Oil_Supplies.html

Another professional fine art painter lives across the street (amazingly!) John Martin. He uses this very limited palette to paint his magnificent portraits of CEOs and university presidents and a remarkable list of people from around this country. And all out of a handful of tubes of color! I do some work with limited palette, and some with a broad range of pigments. Fun both ways! :-) But you can do the most amazing things with 7 tubes of paint! If you need to, cut out the warm yellow, but since the earth colors are always the least expensive, they can often save so much time, since it can be a chore to mix down the very, very intense (often misused) (but necessary) Cad. Yellow Light.

Permelba Mixed White is my favorite white paint, a mix of Titanium and Zinc, each of which have some great qualities and a few drawbacks, so makes for the best of both worlds. And a wonderful handling consistency. I do use Flake (Lead,) Zinc and Titanium on their own for particular qualities each offers, and usually Art Spectrum and Old Holland. I have all in both brands---as well as several other brands of whites bought over the years.

The student grade paints are cheaper cuz the tubes have so much more percentage oil, soaked up by filler materials that help load up the tube, with far less pigment, which IS what it is all about!!! You don't get the same look and handling compared to more pigment presented with it's best balance of oil.

Several of the older big companies are not quite what they used to be. There have been several companies bought out and then run by the bean counters. Has been interesting to learn of some of the stories from people who worked there. Sad. But---there are so many glorious paint makers who are very connected to the arts, many artists themselves, and to making very high quality materials on a more intimate level.

Experiment! That's the best way, in addition to our being able to share information through WC!

I use primarily the Art Spectrums and Old Hollands, and now and then some "odds and ends" of newer brands to experiment with. I do think it's really important to find a particular brand of a particular pigment that serves you well. There are some pigments I use regularly from more than one brand, since each company has different pigment resources and the looks and responses can differ in interesting, useful ways.

I've done a number of Technical Workshops for Oil over the years where I squeeze out on to each artists' palette 7 or 8 different brands of the same pigment. It always amazes folks at the huge variation brand to brand. Mostly, I want to know I'm getting high pigment of fine qualilty, well formulated. One thing I keep laughing about----with the Art Spectrum Cadmium Red Light---I often get a bit too much into a mixture where I only need a little dab of it. Just sooo much gorgeous pigment, that I'm still working at breaking decades of habit of needing to reach for a bit more for the mixture. Well, great problem to have. I just don't get to buy new tubes of their Cadmiums very often because they go so much farther. :-)

Yum! Best wishes! Donna ;-}

instantjim
12-19-2006, 12:00 AM
In my last post I gave some incorrect information I need to correct - the Norma Indian yellow is Py153 not PY 110. Donna said a lot of great things in her post: using a limited palette really helps you to understand the way colour works. A warm and a cool of the three primaries and a few convenience colours are what I usually recommend: hence cadmium red light; a purplish red like PV19 (Rose), or an alizarin replacement (Pr 264, Pr 179, Pr 177); Lemon yellow (either PY3 or PY 184- Bismuth Vanadate); Cadmium Yellow deep; Ultramarine Blue and Phthalo Blue. With these colours I recommend a green (my preference is for either Oxide of Chromium or phthalo green). Also An earth colour or two such as raw sienna or yellow ochre. Many earthlike colours can be made by either mixing a purple with raw sienna, or by adding complementaries (say a green with cadium red).
:)

dlake
12-19-2006, 02:51 AM
How are you Donna? We keep bumping into each other. Granted that Old Holland is tops with acrylics. ooooooh. but, I am at a learning stage in oils and am looking for a xmas gift. my wishlist. So, I decided to join in the conversation.
I did not want to go the old holland route just yet. I was looking midrange and wanting to get out of student. I have some winsors but, wanted to have some different brand to paint with. No art store but 2 craft ones and they have the winsors. So, I thought I'd try something I could not get here.
The one brand not student is winsor.
But, I like the creamy kind. something that spreads and has great tinting.
After talking to people I narrowed it down and put on the list. Now I am waiting for the ups truck to find out which one I got from my family for xmas.
Spectrum was one of the brands.
I am desparate now. I'm am almost totally out of white and I am ready to throw my practice paints out with it weak coloring. so frustrating. I cannot finish any paintings due to the white situation.
The truck should be here tomorrow or Wed. I am hoping.

Pilan
05-09-2007, 03:14 PM
Has anyone's preference or opinion changed since posting about their favorite creamy oil paint?

I want to try several brands of oil paint,

blockx, doak, williamsburg, puro, mussini again (my first tube was so long ago I don't remember or had enough knowledge then to know) vasari.... I knew a woman in California who painted awesome earth tones with vasari.

I am looking forward to my order from SP and waiting to try them out.

Adriela
05-09-2007, 04:51 PM
I'm using Daniel Smith plus Sennilier (sp?) Flake white, and a few Winsor and Newton's. So far, happy happy.

LGHumphrey
05-09-2007, 05:39 PM
Pilan, have you tried Rembrandt?

Gunzorro mentioned that Maimeri Puro are very creamy, problem is that they're a bit expensive even at Dick Blick.

gunzorro
05-09-2007, 06:24 PM
Lawrence -- then we don't even want to talk about SP and Vasari! ;)

Pilan
05-09-2007, 08:35 PM
ha ha!

I don't know what to try except I will try some Vasari because Gunzorro reccomended these. I do know I want as pure a pigment as I can get because if I end up using medium then I will be mixing copal or using marogers. The pigment should be easy for getting a longer paint.

Also, I don't want to end up doing the gunzorro thingy and trying them all out then having to put them up on ebay:D!

moonduck
05-10-2007, 12:07 AM
m. graham. creamy not too expensive

matthewstiles
05-12-2007, 03:44 PM
I use Williamsburg there about 15 minutes up the road from my current residence so It makes it pretty easy to get them direct.

kerguelen
07-01-2007, 10:41 AM
Because I do a lot of impasto painting, my experience has been with the W&N Winton oils and the Georgian oils. I use a lot of impasto so I have tried to stick with the larger tubes and these two brands are the best of them.

Although these brands have been called "student grade", it might be helpful to know that the artist-grade paints of 40 years ago are generally less lightfast than most student grade paints are today.

Anyway, in my experience, they are definitely not student-grade paints.

The Winton oil paints are a bit less brilliant than the Georgian oil paints. I was using Winton and arbitrarily switched over to Georgian when I noticed my surfaces were more colorful, less chalky. The painting surface also is more uniform and a bit glossier than the Wintons.

Each artist paints differently, so that is only my experience.

I definitely vote on the Georgian oils!

Einion
07-01-2007, 12:14 PM
Although these brands have been called "student grade", it might be helpful to know that the artist-grade paints of 40 years ago are generally less lightfast than most student grade paints are today.
There are plenty of paints made today using the exact same pigments of 40 years ago and they're just as lightfast now as they were then. While a number of paintmakers did use to utilise dodgy synthetic-organic pigments like Tartrazine Lake for certain colours, and a few natural pigments of the same ilk, that are now almost completely a thing of the past let's not tar their entire output with the same brush.

The Winton oil paints are a bit less brilliant than the Georgian oil paints. I was using Winton and arbitrarily switched over to Georgian when I noticed my surfaces were more colorful, less chalky. The painting surface also is more uniform and a bit glossier than the Wintons.
That may be why you're noticing the colour is a bit more vibrant with the Georgian line - surface gloss directly determines 'depth of colour', all other things being equal.

Einion

kerguelen
07-01-2007, 08:44 PM
That may be why you're noticing the colour is a bit more vibrant with the Georgian line - surface gloss directly determines 'depth of colour', all other things being equal.

Einion

Wouldn't gloss have more to do with reflectivity than with depth of color? Something that is glossy reflects more light back to the eye.

corné akkers
07-02-2007, 06:32 AM
LGHumphrey, to answer your question: I have a distinct quantity of Rembrandt. They're mighty fine, but I'm switching to Old Holland nevertheless. Like in one of the first posts of this thread already suggested: they contain less oil and pure pigments of the highest quality. Different art supplies sellers here in Holland confirmed my thoughts: Whoever uses Rembrandt, Schmincke and Winsor & Newton, will change their predilection from time to time. Whoever starts to use Old Holland will stick only to that brand.

Einion
07-02-2007, 04:27 PM
Wouldn't gloss have more to do with reflectivity than with depth of color?
No, surface gloss directly affects 'depth of colour' as most artists would use that term.

It's easy to see this for yourself: paint some swatches of a number of colours side by side on a small panel and let them dry thoroughly, aiming for a smooth surface on the paint. Because this isn't for anything permanent you could speed-dry the paint under a lamp overnight if you want. Then lightly sand or scrub up one half using fine sandpaper or a nylon scrubbing pad (be careful of the dust), and paint a thin coat of gloss varnish over the other half. Compare.

A quick-and-dirty way of seeing the same thing is if there are any matt passages within any in-progress paintings lick your thumb and wipe it over a small area to see how the colour changes.

Einion

LGHumphrey
07-03-2007, 02:25 PM
corné, is Old Holland creamy?

grampy bone
07-03-2007, 06:16 PM
corné, is Old Holland creamy?

No, in my limited experience, Old Holland is fairly stiff out of the tube.

M. Graham is "creamy" direct from the tube. I'm sure there are others.

I would point out though that its easy to get caught up in the idea that the expensive paint will make you paint better. Nobody will look at a modern day masterpiece and say, "Gee, I wonder what brand of paint that was done with". Check out some of David Curtis's work (the British landscape painter), he uses some of the Daler-Rowney Georgian paints which are considered student grade by many. The quality of the finished painting will far outweigh the quality of paint used to make that painting IMO.

http://www.richardhagen.com/curtis03/index.html

Raymond Ore
07-04-2007, 03:38 PM
Winsor and Newton, all the way here. No better reason than there's more of it in the shops than any other brand so I started with it and to change now would cost too much.

Naturegyrll
07-05-2007, 04:16 PM
I'll have to give Old Holland a try as I like a 'stiffer' paint. I normally use Windsor Newton, but have some tubes of Holbein and they have a nice consistency. I run into trouble with the familiarity of the names to get a good American pallet. "Ultramarine" can mean so many things!

Naturegyrll
07-05-2007, 04:18 PM
.....WAIT A MINUTE! What do you mean better paint won't make you a better painter?!?

Dang it!

Eggy
07-05-2007, 07:37 PM
Better paint will not make you a better painter, but I can assure you that good quality brands are an incentive to carry on and mature as a painter. If one starts off with poor tools in a job, the end result will relect this.
As a student, I started off using "Artist" paints (even though they are more expensive) and limited my palette which gave me more knowledge in mixing. I made it a "must" to use no more than seven colours in oils, watercolours, acrylics, but not (for obvious reasons) pastels. Now that I mainly paint in ET, I still limit my palette and concentrate on techniques the "masters" used in their work with ET.
Nothing gives me more pleasure than the priming of the board and finally to applying the "home made" paints to it. ET needs a lot osf patience and it can be an unforgiving medium but the old adage "practice makes perfect" is an absolute must in ET. One can mask mistakes in watercolours, oils, acrylics etc. but this is very difficult to accomplish in ET.
I noticed that a few members have started using ET and would like to know what is/ are the main problems they have/had with this medium.

Kind regards,
Eggy

Jastlo
07-05-2007, 11:00 PM
I use Rembrandt, and I have some W&N also. I love them.

Eggy
07-06-2007, 10:08 AM
For watercolours, oils and acrylics: Windsor and Newton has my vote.

mattking
07-08-2007, 02:10 AM
the only reason i wouldnt use windsor newton artist grade paint for beginers is because they make up alot of new colors. these weird names for prior traditional colors may confuse someone who is begining to use oils.(although, i think the winsdor newton "winton" student grade color selection is more traditional and simple). Gamblin offers a high quality paint and for the most part keep their color selection simple, and somewhat traditional. M. Graham offers a simple pallet at a reasonable price.

out of all the cheeper student grade paints i would stay away from the windsor newton winton series. im not sure what they use as a filler, but alot of their pigments seem very chalky (especially the more expensive ones like cadmium and cobalt). it looks like they might use a titanium dioxide pigment as a filler in these colors. to me, they come across very dull and chalky. i was impressed with the dealer rowley "gerogian" student grade paints. they have a simple color pallet, and the pigmentation seems to be at a reasonable level for a student grade paint. i would alos consider grumbacher. stya away from van gough, rembrandt,and all those other super cheep companies.

LGHumphrey
07-08-2007, 03:01 PM
Rembrandt is super cheap? Where? Where?

mattking
07-10-2007, 12:29 AM
rembrandt is kind of in the middle of student grade and artist grade. i guess i would call it a cheep artist grade paint.

LGHumphrey
07-10-2007, 09:57 AM
rembrandt is kind of in the middle of student grade and artist grade. i guess i would call it a cheep artist grade paint.

Someone should tell Richard Schmid.

gunzorro
07-10-2007, 10:12 AM
Ha-ha!

Although I might sometimes (often?) be considered a paint-snob, I was heartened in watching the videos and reading books by Schmid, that he doesn't use any super-expensive paint. All seems very normal mid-grade artist paint: L&B (generally under-rated in my opinion), Gamblin, WN, and some Rembrandt, are the mainstays. There is no arguing with his beautiful results, and no doubt the paintings will hold up over time.

Following his advice on colors, and conducting paint tests, you can see his choices are based on compatibility of colors and consistency from batch to batch. He seldom makes any major changes in brand once he has tested the paint. A very practical approach to paint selection, based on results and not personal bias.

It makes me wonder about all my brand comparisons . . . ;)

Brian Firth
07-10-2007, 10:18 AM
In my opinion Rembrandt is perfectly fine paint. I have used Old Holland, Blockx, Schminke, Puro, Winsor and Newton, Gamblin, Pre-Tested and hand mulled my own paint and Rembrandt is no better or worse. Each line has some nice characteristics, with some stand out colors, but "good" paint is subjective and to call Rembrandt a student paint is laughable. But the people who market outrageously high priced paint appreciate your loyal dedication. Richard Schmid also uses Winsor and Newton. Gasp! And Gamblin. Double Gasp! It's almost like he is more concentrated on painting than the marketing and snooty reputation of his paints.

oramasha
07-10-2007, 11:08 AM
A lot of well-known artists use some paints from Rembrandt. I think mid-grade is the way to go. After that, it's the skill, experience, and brush mileage that will make the difference.

Angwinsnight
07-10-2007, 10:02 PM
If you're choosing paints based on price why not just buy house paint?

I believe ArtSpectrum in most colors to be the best I've used.
They used to have a problem with consistency of carrier mediums, some too dry some too runny but I've persisted as their pigment content is stronger than most others. ArtSpectrum have ironed those consistency issues out it would seem.
They're the best paints IMO.....why......because:
A small tube of cadmium will paint an average bedroom

Sir Paul
07-11-2007, 12:40 AM
All paint brands have their 'funny trade names' for certain pigments. (Pthalo, Napthol, Quinacridone, etc) At least W&N clearly puts the pigments codes on their tubes, which I appreciate. Many don't. It really pays for someone starting out in painting to study the pigments and codes of at least a handful of basic pigments. It's fun & easy, and it makes you realize that there's a lot of mixes out there you really don't need. Least not right off. Saves you a lot of money rather than going in there looking at those tubes like you're in a candy store.. ;O)

monkhaus
07-28-2007, 09:53 PM
Well, I've found myself really attracted to the M.Graham paints. I've played around with Winsor & Newton, Holbein, a couple others here and there but Graham for as cheap as it is, in price, is just wonderful. I will say though that I keep flicking to IAS because I want to try the Harding paints and a couple of the others that they offer.

Any recommendations on who to buy linen and canvas from, either pre-stretched or not doesn't matter much to me.

corné akkers
07-29-2007, 06:36 AM
corné, is Old Holland creamy?

Old Holland is, already being said, not creamy at all. I rather spend a fair deal of money on real powerful pigments than the equal amount on lesser quantity of pigments added with a surpluss of oil, just to fill up the 70 ml tube, like they do in some of the Talens - Rembrandt series. It's like many chicken farms like to spray chicken fillets with water, so the fillets get increased by 10%. In the end we wouldn't like to buy water for fillet prices, would we?
A big deal of the Rembrandt series are truely great, but Old Holland never has disappointed me. I just use more oil and turps to cream up my paint. It's cheaper and thus the revenue of my Old Holland tubes is huge.

wbarts
09-05-2008, 04:55 PM
Most of the Name brands are Perfect for anyone out there..
BUT, Only a FEW companies won't use any type of filler in there colour.. Winsor is one of them.
If your just starting out, Get a Starter kit of a few tubes from companies in your price range and White spead test there pigments from each. You can even get Free Samples if you call them up on the phone.

Every painter has a few brands of paint tubes in there Box.. Find the Brand you like "That makes it easy to put on the end of a stick without Excessive Mixing" that you can afford.

wbarts
09-05-2008, 07:53 PM
I like some paints in Winton Winsor Newton just because its creamy.. The Winton IS still very good but use a Cheaper Pigment "ManMade Pigment instead of Natural" The paints still save very good TINTing Power.. Don't let a Store force you into the 10 or 20 dollar tubes. There is no need to make payments on Oil Colour. Just about all companies will send you free samples to try out. They are like 16ml tubes, but they are something to compair with your own EYES.

krpolak
09-05-2008, 08:23 PM
wbarts

>BUT, Only a FEW companies won't use any type of filler in
>there colour.. Winsor is one of them.

How are you so sure about that?

My impression is that W&N uses fillers and conditioners a lot. Why? Because their colours seems to be too creamy, too consistent.

Regards,

K.Polak

wbarts
09-05-2008, 10:10 PM
Sure yes, sure.

Maybe you didnt read the post above. A elcheapo x Brand will use the same pigments but FILL the tube with Filler.
As to say, The tinting power is reduced.
Winton uses Cheaper Pigments, Not more filler.

gunzorro
09-05-2008, 11:11 PM
I'm not so sure Winton uses cheaper pigments as a rule. There aren't any grades of things like Phthalo -- it's one pigment essentially (per color), full strength or diluted.
That isn't to say Winton doesn't make "hue" colors, but the pigments are not necessarily cheap pigments, just cheaper substituted pigments of a different kind than the original they are trying to copy.

From the little use I once made of Winton, they were full of fillers.

Adriantmax
09-06-2008, 12:48 AM
Mgraham have no fillers or additives but have a fairly even consistency across the board too.

I expect most student brands to have fillers, additives and mixed pigment hues. I remember using student colours when I was at college. Wish there had been internet and places like wet canvas to learn about painting back then. Probably would have spent the extra for good paints if we had been properly informed.

gertrude1
11-05-2008, 05:00 PM
Hello. I'm new. I don't know much about this but so Ineed to ask this
silly question.

I bought present for my friend who is painter.
I bought 24 color Lefranc & Bourgeois-Louvre set.

Is that good?I'm not sure about this after reading
all praise of Winsor & Newton.

If Lefranc & Bourgeois sucks I need to know so I can
exchange for something else on time.

Thank you.

krpolak
11-05-2008, 05:31 PM
Dont listen to us. We complain about our materials all the time. We are sort of paint freaks, looking for conspiracy in every tube ;-)

My guess, set you bough will be fine.

Regards,

K.Polak

Adriantmax
11-05-2008, 07:56 PM
Lefranc & Bourgeois are a famous and good almost 300 year old brand :). W&N paints are good mainstream paints that you can find almost everywhere paint is sold so it's no surprise that they are popular. L&B are found in smaller stores that sell more specialist brands. I use M.Graham paints but the L&B are one of the few brands that produce Lavender oil which I use as a turpentine alternative.